Talk:End time

Poor writing and xenophobia

Well this has been quite a labor of love, but I wanted to update with several maintenance issues, accurate referencing, and removal of plagiarism that I took care of.

Someone above insightfully wrote:

The End Time, End Times, or End of Days are the eschatological writings in the three Abrahamic religions" Huh? No, the End Times are described in eschatological writings; the writings themselves are not the End Times!

I think this is a very sharp observation. There is a separate article in Wikipedia on eschatology which is centered around the Abrahamic religions. This article, however, is on End time, a concept which is clearly referenced in Hinduism (for several thousand pages of the Vedas). Likewise Bhuddism clearly talks about the end time for Bhuddism, predicting it to occur 5000 years after he lived (which is roughly 2500 years from now), after which Bhuddism would be forgotten and a new bhodisattva would be needed to reveal dharma.

As such, the intro paragraph should not read Abrahamic religions and miscellaneous, it should list the 5 largest faiths of the world, and each of their end time scenarios respectively, in order to present a more objective and encyclopedic view.

Unfortunately, this was not possible before as the section on Bhuddism was not well researched. In addition, it was plagiarized directly from another website. I deleted the copied subsection, included the website as a reference, and mostly rewrote a correct new section that accurately reflects Bhuddist belief. The section on Hinduism had serious grammatical problems and appears that it was written by a non-native English speaker. As such I rewrote it as well, but preserved the factual content as best as possible. I also added in at least 10-20 more missing references.

Why have I spent the last 5 hours on this article?! Please let me know if any feedback or revisions and thanks everyone for your great work so far. Parsh (talk) 09:14, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

I also believe there should be a section for the atheist or secular concept of end time. End time is a concept, not a religion. Please let me know if any objections. Parsh (talk) 13:04, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I think you have significantly improved the article and a section on secular concepts of end times could be useful. I think the Theosophical views of Maitreya should not be mixed into the Buddhist section since Theosophists are not Buddhists. Jojalozzo 16:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Also, armageddononline.org is not a reliable site. I removed that reference and the reference to maitreya.org. I noticed that the main Buddhist eschatology article also lacks sources. Jojalozzo 21:12, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Those are all really helpful observations, thanks for taking a close look. I was first rewriting the piece, but I agree it is a good idea to look more closely at the references. Please advise if you think of anything else. Parsh (talk) 14:09, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Tanakh

An editor earlier noted that the Tanakh section has incredibly long quotations. While I certainly am not downplaying the importance of the text, as I appreciate the delicate nature of an article like this, some of the quotation may not be entirely pertinent to the subject of End time, and other parts could be summarized and worded so as to make the article easier to read and flow better.

I believe it's in Elements of Style but it is good technique to not have more than quotation than text, and that section is 95% quotation, 5% text. I will parse it down in two weeks if no one has an objection. Parsh (talk) 01:02, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I say go for it. Be bold. No need to wait. Jojalozzo 01:07, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm working on another article first :) Thanks for the quick feedback. Parsh (talk) 01:32, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Tanakh/Old Testament and New Testament

There are a total of 4 quotes from the Old Testament and 2 from the New Testament, for a total of about 7-8 pages of text and with only a few lines of surrounding text. The New Testament quotes are fairly explicit, but I will support them with surrouding text. There is a lot of overlap between the quotes, with some things said 5-6x. To show this I have broken it down line by line to show my logic, as I do understand the delicate nature of the topic (show your work as my physics professors used to say): — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lenny Kaufman (talk • contribs) 17:13, 25 November 2012 (UTC) (a.k.a. Chantoke/Parsh)

Deuteronomy 4:29-39

But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Seek out God.

When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
When the trials start, turn to God, he's on your side.

For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?
If you think about it, nothing has been this big since the beginning of man.

Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as the seas turn black and feel like mud, and all will know the wrath and atonement of their sins? Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
Have you ever heard of God in flame? How about the sea turning into mud? Everybody's in trouble. Hopefully got has chosen some of us to get through this with special signs, like he did back in Egypt.

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.
I showed you this so you could know how strong I was. Also, remember, my voice is in fire.

And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt; to drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day.
God loved your ancestors, which is you're here today. He did it for you, you owe him.

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
And, again, I am the only God.

- Deuteronomy 4:29-39 (King James Version) --- I realize this is quite long, and so thanks if you if you made it this far. To summarize the paraphrasing:

'Seek out God. When the trials start, turn to God, He's on your side. If you think about it, nothing has been this big since the beginning of man. Have you ever heard of God's voice in flames? How about the sea turning into mud? Everybody's in trouble. Hopefully God has chosen some of us to get through this with special signs, like He did back in Egypt, don't forget Egypt. Now you know how strong he is. Also, again, His voice is in fire. God loved your ancestors, which is you're here today. He did it for you, and you really owe him. And, again, there is only one God, and that's God. - Deuteronomy 4:29-39 (King James Version) '

Isaiah 2:1-5

The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
God is going to make his home on top of a mountain, and be exalted.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Let's go to the mountain and see God.

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
He'll judge us, and we'll stop fighting

Isaiah 2:1-5 - God will make his home on top of the mountain, exalted. Let's go visit him. He will judge us and people will stop fighting. - Isaiah 2:1-5 (King James Version)

Micah 4:1-5 - Essentially Identical to Isaiah 2:1 (above)

But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

God is going to make his home on top of a mountain.

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
People are going to want to visit him and learn.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
He'll judge us, and we'll stop fighting

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
People will relax because God said so.

For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever."
We will always follow him.

Micah 4:1-5 - God is going to make his home on top of the mountain, where people will want to visit him. He will judge us, the fighting will stop, people will calm down and follow God. - Micah 4:1-5 (King James Version)

New Testament Quotes

The New Testament, in this case, repeats some of the Old Testament, but also has some very specific additions. Especially Luke--his description of the end is bone chilling, and I think needs to be directly quoted.

Luke 21:20-33

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, bad times approach.

Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
At that point, everyone needs to leave Israel, no one should come in, no questions asked. These are times of vengeance, when the prophecies come true.

But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
It's the worst for the pregnant and nursing. People are going to be killed by swords, become prisoner, and Jeursalem is going to be taken over by gentiles.
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
There will be astrological signs and bad weather.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Then you will see the Messiah (see: Son of Man in a cloud.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spoke to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
These are the signs of the end of time.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."
So, watch out.'''

Luke 21:20-33 - When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, bad times approach. At that point, everyone needs to leave Israel, no one should come in, no questions asked. These are times of vengeance, when the prophecies come true. It's the worst for the pregnant and nursing. People are going to be killed by swords, become prisoner, and Jeursalem is going to be taken over by gentiles. There will be astrological signs and bad weather. Then you will see the Messiah (see: Son of Man) in a cloud. These are the signs of the end of time.

Mark 13:14-20

• 
  But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
  
• Again the description of the Antichrist, with an implicit wink, and the stern instructions to stay on top of your roofs and inside the fields, and people that dealing with pregnancy/newborn issues are in trouble. Things will be pretty much the worst they've ever been for everone except the elect.
  (Mark 13:14-20)

• And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.|Mark 13:14-20 (King James Version)}}
  
• The winter is going to be the worst time because of a disease that will eat flesh. This will affect everyone but the elect.
  

• Summary of Mark 13:14-20 - When you see the evil that Daniel spoke of, then run to the mountains. Don't come out your house, if you're away from home, don't come back, and if you're pregnant or nursing, you are in trouble.
  

Matthew 24:15-22

• When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).
  Vivid description of the desolate landscape.
  
• Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
• But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
  

* Summary of Matthew: When you see the coomplete desolation, run to the mountains, don't leave your housetop, if you're in the fields don't come back in to town, and if you are pregnant or nursing you're in trouble. Don't run on holidays or the winter. Everyone's flesh will be scourged, except for the elect.- - Matthew 24:15-22 (King James Version) --

I have tried to be extremely careful not to make my own interpretations Basically I cut out some of the redundancies that doesn't add to the encyclopedic format, more so with Tanakh. Right now I am trying to get the body of it to match with the articles Maranatha and Christian eschatological views. More work than expected. Parsh (talk) 23:15, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Bhuddism end time

I am having difficulty finding reliable references for Bhuddism End Time. I came across this, which was by the Dalai Lama in 1901:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/oc/gppt6.htm

It seems pretty accurate. If no more comprehensive or original source is found, I will write this into the section. Comments? Bueller? Parsh (talk) 17:05, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Updates

I added a few pictures, rewrote the long quotes as discussed above at the earlier portions of the article (primarily Tanakh). Issues left:

• Flesh out Tanakh section, either by restoring more of the original or with added references to provide a non primary source (we need a secondary source).

After looking through rabbinical teachings and end of days descriptions in Deuteronomy and Isaiah, I have added considerable additional material and inline references to the Judaism section. Parsh (talk) 06:07, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I have significantly edited the Judaism section. The section on Tanakh being divided from Messianic Age was arbitrary because most of the Messianic Age is in Isaiah, which is itself in Nevi'im. I believe I have also addressed the issue of needed secondary and tertiary sources for which the article was labelled in July, so I propose that this be removed (if anyone is reading this besides me..). Parsh (talk) 08:48, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• Bhuddism section still needs citations.

Will likely use http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/oc/gppt6.htm

Secondary source would be good if anyone knows one.

Found good primary and secondary sources for Bhuddism section. Digha Nikaya 26, in case you're wondering.

Remaining points are references for Norse mythology and Rastafarian sections. Not sure why I'm typing this, talking to myself. Parsh (talk) 11:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Regarding Buddhism -- there are two foretellings that I have come across Maitreya and the Sermon of the Seven Suns. The first is a rebirth narrative, the second an apocalyptic one. Does anyone know which occurs first? Or are they contradictory texts? I may have to go fishing for an editor with more expertise than me on Bhuddism. I have 3 physical secondary sources on Bhuddism and countless online and if one eschaton is mentioned, the other usually is not, at least in the books and reliable sources. Anyone know better? I will describe them as parallel narratives if I can't find a source describing them in sequence. Parsh (talk) 13:27, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Success! I figured it out -- Maitreya comes first, and his appearance signals the (seven) suns to go supernova. http://books.google.com/books?id=0lyEdhOnPIoC&pg=PA402&lpg=PA402&dq=%22seven+suns%22+maitreya&source=bl&ots=KTESiJtcQ4&sig=7Ze5uymSmoZXaqvNYjwUHXeiRwc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FcC0UKm5HqK0ygG5voGQDw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=%22seven%20suns%22%20maitreya&f=false

Fingers crossed, my hope is to ultimately get this article back to GA status, even featured. I believe it can be done. Parsh (talk) 13:31, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Greek Gods

The general consensus from looking at sources is that there is no true eschatology or end time sequence in the greek myths. The story that the article has had has been Cronos telling Zeus he would be killed by his own children. However, I believe that myth was fulfilled when Athena sprung from Zeus's head. Regardless, I can find no outside reference (first, second or third) that can verify what has been entered here, and I think it qualifies as original research WP:OR. As such I am considering deleting it. Let me know your thoughts. Parsh (talk) 15:24, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I went ahead and deleted it and expanded Norse mythology. There will be more smaller edits, but no more major changes from my current perspective. Parsh (talk) 15:58, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned references in End time

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of End time's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "cooper":

• From Bahá'í Faith: Cooper, Roger (1993). "Death Plus 10 years". HarperCollins: 20. ISBN 0-00-255045-8. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• From List of conspiracy theories: Cooper, Roger (1993). Death Plus 10 years. HarperCollins. p. 200. ISBN 0-00-255045-8.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 19:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Islam

The section on Islam is completely unreferenced and I will patch that up. If any other weak points in the article, please address, otherwise I guess it's just me and the bots for now. Parsh (talk) 07:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Islam section looks far better. No major issues that I can see. Parsh (talk) 11:14, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Maitreyu and Sermon of the Seven Suns

I have found a number of resources that discuss either Maitreyu, or the Seven Suns sermon, but none that talk about them together, or in relation to one another. Is anyone aware of a good source that tells which occurs first? Parsh (talk) 11:14, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Cyclical vs non-cyclical

Does anyone feel like the non-cyclical religions seem kind of cyclical and vice versa? I have been giving consideration to the idea that the division is arbitrary. Chantoke ^talk 11:15, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the distinction is largely arbitrary. One could even say it is based upon something of a false dichotomy, for even in most so-called "cyclical" systems, there is an overall linear progression being made, while in most so-called "linear" systems, there is a return to an "original" state, thus yielding a cycle. And what about so-called "spiral" models? I think it would be best to simply remove the distinction. 84.75.168.38 (talk) 08:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Judaism and all mankind

I'm sorry if I'm asking something obvius, but can somebody knowledgable confirm that "all mankind" will be resurrected and enter the Garden of Eden in Judaism. "All mankind" means "everybody" in this phrasing so this means in effect that everyone regardless of religion or lack of religion will be saved. All the best 85.220.22.139 (talk) 19:57, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

from the Seven Laws of Noah wiki page:

"The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), or the Noahide Laws, are a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God[1] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humanity.[2][3]... Accordingly, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come (Hebrew: עולם הבא‎ Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous.[4][5]" Calawpro (talk) 04:20, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Zoroastrianism as the "oldest" eschatology?

Wikipedia's own page on Zoroaster states that:

"[t]he Gathas in contrast to the mythological Avesta place the chronology of Zoroaster much later in history, with the most conservative being dated to around the mid-sixth century BCE and the most liberal estimate being c. 1,000 BCE. Arthur Emanuel Christensen dates Zoroaster to c. 625 BCE, but Ebrahim Pourdavoud Herzfeld and Johannes Hertel date Zoroaster as existing between 550–523 BCE"

By contrast, the consensus is that at least the J and E sources of the Torah/Pentateuch were written in 1000-800 BC.

There's a subtle bias in many sources in which religions claim to be "first" or "oldest" in some aspect of theology. In an encyclopedic and neutral entry, I think consensus dating, particularly by non-adherent scholars, is an important objectifying factor and when in doubt, we'd be better off omitting any reference to which religion "first" developed an eschatology.Calawpro (talk) 04:22, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

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Merge from Apocalypticism

Apocalypticism is simply belief that there will be an end time. Both Apocalypticism and End times are simply lists of various religions' beliefs or non-beliefs with regard to apocalyptic end times. It would make sense to merge the two to avoid duplicate content for easier navigation and reduced effort to maintain the articles. -- Beland (talk) 01:08, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Opppose. Apocalypticism has implications of imminence. Not just that there will be an end some day, but that it will happen soon. Editor2020 (talk) 19:57, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@Editor2020: Hmm, does that mean that Apocalypticism#Jainism should be removed? The "end time" there to the degree anyone thinks it will happen at all is apparently not predicted for about 40,000 years. -- Beland (talk) 01:07, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Not all "end times" are necessarily apocalyptic. Apocalypse in general actually refers more to the period of time immediately preceding the "end," and this apocalyptic period is usually a rather catastrophic period, full of human suffering. warshy ^(¥¥) 22:32, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
• @Warshy and Editor2020: It sounds like you're both saying not every end time is apocalyptic, but every apocalypse appears to be associated with an end time, no? There are nine religions that have duplicate listings on both End times and Apocalypticism. Jainism and the five contemporary religions listed only on Apocalypticism are arguably missing from End times, since those sections are talking about both. Would you say the Baháʼí sections should be removed from one or both because they don't actually believe in a time of suffering or an end of anything? Or is that useful to include to note the non-belief? Then there's actually a third listing at Eschatology which adds Taoism and is missing Jainism and the contemporary religions. I can certainly see merging all three articles and pushing detail out into articles on each religion. Would "Eschatology" be a better all-encompassing title and target for a three-way merge? -- Beland (talk) 01:07, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

This whole section of categorization and many of the pages included need to be reorganized. Feel like taking it on? Editor2020 (talk) 01:32, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

@Editor2020: I'm happy to do that if we have a clear scope for each article. What would you propose? -- Beland (talk) 20:18, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree that reorganizaton of categories is a good idea. As for merging, I don't think so. I would leave the three different pages as independent pages, with the necessary connections. All three are definitely connected, and there may be multiple connections. End Time and Eschatology are more closely connected, but Eschatology and Apocalypticism are not the same thing by any means, in my view. I'd say that Eschatology originates in the Hebrew Bible, whereas Apocalypticism originates in the post-ذHebrew Second Temple period. There are some areas of overlap, but they are two different things and should be kept separate. The links and correlations in between these concepts should appear on all pages, but in my view there is no need to actually "merge" them completely. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 15:29, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

@Warshy: One could certainly say that eschatological beliefs become more or less apocalyptic in terms of suffering or tragedy or imminence, but you wouldn't say beliefs about an apocalyse are non-eschatological, would you? These articles do also cover many religions and not just Judaism, so though it's interesting there have been different periods of belief there, I don't see how that translates into a general rule for scoping these lists. "Eschatology" literally means "study of the last", i.e. doctrine concerning the end times. If we want to keep the lists on End times and Eschatology separate, what scopes would you propose that would let us clearly decide what content goes on one, the other, or both? -- Beland (talk) 20:18, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I haven't looked at any "lists" so far, because I wasn't concerned about them. I actually wasn't even aware there were such "lists." All I wrote was concerning the two separate concepts of Eschatology and Apocalipticism. In that regard, I believe what I wrote is correct. I'd say that beliefs about an apocaplypse are more specifically apocalyptic, besides being eschatological also, in a generic sense. So Apocalypse is a narrower, more determined type of Eschatology, and that is why the two concepts need to remain as separate concepts. Areas where they overlap should be clearly defined (and inter-linked) in each page. That is what I am saying about the idea of merging the two pages in general. Now, regarding these separate lists, I will now look into it further. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 20:48, 17 February 2022 (UTC)