Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red/Archive 109

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Introduction

Hi friends, today I joined this project, my first time joining a project, so forgive me if this post isn't follow protocol. And thanks Ipigott for the nudge to join this group. I've been working on a few themes on wikipedia (humanitarian stuff, mining/environment stuff and trying to chip away at the gender gap). On the third one, I've had mixed success. The failures are probably a combination of me trying to create articles on women too early in their careers, or about women that are not well reported on, despite their good work, but it's also because I'm still learning to find souces and don't have access to many academic papers that I see some people have, presumably due to univerity affiliations. Anyway, I've just added WIR tags to drafts that I'm working on, and also ones that I submitted via the AfC process. Any help on any of them is greatly appreciated. CT55555 (talk) 13:54, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

CT55555, thank you for joining. This is an amazing project and Ipigott is an incredible ambassador of the project. You'll find everyone here to be insightful and most are willing to help and offer the best advice, even if it goes against what we hope to hear. We want the best free and inclusive encyclopedia possible within the guidelines and policies. You are so welcome here at WiR. I look forward to reading the great articles you have and will create and learning about the amazing people, places and things within them. --ARoseWolf 14:09, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

CT55555 What ARoseWolf said. As for library materials, you can gain access to lots of sources via the Library after you have been editing for 6 months and have made 500 edits with 10 of those being in the month prior to applying. Until then, just ask here, as someone will probably have access and if they don't you can ask at the Resource Exchange. There are also helpful primers, look in the gray box at the top of this page for essays, that give clues about writing articles on women. I personally don't recommend sending an article to AfC, but if you have one declined there, just post it on this talk page to see if anyone can help. Good luck and welcome aboard! SusunW (talk) 14:38, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@CT55555 To access various academic and other "not so easy" sources you can try the Wikipedia Library. It has access to many normally paywalled sources. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:48, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. SusunW and User:ARoseWolf Relevant articles that I have in AfC process right now: Draft:Juliet_Donald Draft:Muzna_Dureid Draft:Jennifer_Evans_(activist) Draft:Elizabeth_Pfiester Draft:Shari_Kasman

Articles that I've had rejected: Draft:Alexis_Matos Draft:Jennifer_Evans_(activist) (resubmitted) Draft:Sana_Mustafa Draft:Nmesomachukwu Umenwofor-Nweze Draft:Vanessa_Redditt Draft:Wendy_Porch

Articles that I'm still working on: Draft:Claudia_Patricia_Vaca_González Draft:Natasha_Freidus

@CT55555: I've looked through your rejected drafts, and here are my views: Matos is probably not even notable enough as a footnote in Drake's article, distressing as that story is, but maybe comments about her passing could be incorporated into media perspectives on cyberbullying over at those articles. Evans could be notable, but so far the coverage is mostly about homelessness and has passing mention of her efforts to combat it. You may need to wait for true notability to arise; that might be when she is fully profiled (not fluffy stuff) or if media covering homelessness seeks her out as an activist/expert to comment, rather than her being a drip in the story. What makes Mustafa any different from any other refugee? It seems that her coverage in media comes from her father being prominent and some of the sympathy for refugees angle - unfortunately, I think her father is more notable here, and she is just the kid that got out. To determine is Umenwofor-Nweze is notable, I would need to know the selection process of the Youth Council, which is the only possible notable thing mentioned: many people go to college, work in the community, get awards. The Youth Council doesn't have a WP article so I will assume it is like similarly-named initiatives in other countries, where a variety of student leaders give (generally performative) advice, and thus the position is an extension of their student leadership. In countries where student leadership isn't inherently notable, it also doesn't confer notability on its own. Redditt is a doctor, I thank her for her service, but no. Porch is probably in the same place as Evans notability-wise, as in, she is trying to be an activist but her story isn't getting picked up. The particular issue here is that they don't yet meet GNG and giving them an article could be seen as trying to platform their causes where other media isn't. Wikipedia reflects the sources that exists, doesn't try to force them into existence - if they're not yet risen to public prominence, it is not our place to suggest they are prominent as activists (and having a WP article does that). Kingsif (talk) 21:58, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Kingsif Thanks, this is really helpful advice that will help me hone where I should be spending my energy. Seems like I should give up on all the rejected ones, re-actovate Porch or Evans if the media picks them up more. On the later, she is picked up plenty, but it's always quotes and therefore primary stuff. CT55555 (talk) 22:35, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@CT55555: Yeah, the other issue with writing biographies is privacy, if someone isn't explicitly notable, is it even right to be putting their life story on Wikipedia... Now, where it comes to historical women, there is the gender gap in sourcing, and some lower standards can be accepted if there is a source that makes it clear the woman was considered notable in her time. Present day sourcing can be both better and worse. Better in that is often more accessible and there may be more of it, but without historical perspectives we can only try our best. Kingsif (talk) 23:57, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Kingsif for bringing up the privacy angle. @CT55555, I had considered bringing that up before in response to some questions you'd had earlier, but I couldn't come up with a way of saying it that didn't have more ambiguity than I wanted. is it even right to be putting their life story on Wikipedia does it. I know your intentions are good, and that you want to bring attention to people you think deserve it. But I would emphasize that, especially for women, and especially for further marginalized women, attention is not always a good thing, even if it's neutrally written, well-sourced attention. If you can't write an article longer than a stub, perhaps you should not.

For Mustafa, I think you can add some information on her into the article on her book. She doesn't pass WP:NAUTHOR as far as I can tell. But the book is clearly notable, and a "plot summary" would include a reasonably sized chunk on Mustafa. -- asilvering (talk) 01:03, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks both for the privacy reminder, I consider myself diligent insofar as I am writing about people who have themselves chosen to make things public (while also doing my best to reject primary source material) but I do agree that none of us can be careful enough here. Also good tips on Mustafa. I've been working on the article since mentioning it above, so you might both have seen different versions of it and writing about her book yesterday was inspired by as earier conversations we had, asilvering. I'm guess that the irony that wikipedia rules clearly consider a book about her life notable while and yet herself as an individual not notable is not lost on any of us. :-) I'm giving up (and already speedy deleted) some of the rejected ones, will focus my attention elsewhere, again, thanks to the above (and earlier, similar chats with asilvering) CT55555 (talk) 13:17, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

C/e help request

Draft:Women's World (Ottoman magazine)

Thanks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 23:47, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Robbie Ethridge

Is an interesting and noteworthy scholar. FloridaArmy (talk) 12:27, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

And mentioned around fifty times in Wikipedia, so definitely within the scope of Women in Red. TSventon (talk) 13:54, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I created Wikidata ID Q110548687 as the barest of starting points. Nick Number (talk) 16:10, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I started a brief draft for her: Draft:Robbie Ethridge Thriley (talk) 18:47, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Added links to book reviews. I wouldn't publish it in this state, myself, but the article does now show that she's notable. -- asilvering (talk) 19:05, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I forget what the policy is, but is a CV from a university website an acceptable source? I am looking at this one in particular: [1] Thriley (talk) 00:48, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

The explicit policy is that the university's website is an acceptable source for various facts (eg, said professor has a named chair at said university) that count for WP:NPROF, but not for proving whether or not the institution itself is notable. Whether a CV counts, I've seen people argue both ways. Out of mercy, I wouldn't use this one in particular because she's left a highlighted add-this-info note-to-self in there, which is basically every writer's nightmare. -- asilvering (talk) 02:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I did see that. Shame it’s there. Otherwise, it seems to be a well composed and information rich CV. Thriley (talk) 02:18, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Silver seren Did you see any biographic inflation in any of many many reviews you have dug up? Thriley (talk) 02:20, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I didn't look too closely. Once I finish adding all the reviews, I'm going to go into the Newspapers.com database to look for actual info on the author. Silverseren^C 02:29, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

It would be highly unlikely for that to be in a review of an academic book. -- asilvering (talk) 02:35, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Alice Walker at AfD

Hi. Please see this AfD. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:07, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

So, does she have significant coverage? Because I'm pretty done with WP:NSPORTS as an argument and am at the end of my rope with it. If significant coverage can't be shown to meet the GNG, the only notability requirement that actually matters, then I'm going to have to be a Delete vote as well. And I've been doing the same on all the male sports AfDs as well. No coverage, no article. But I will help look for coverage as well. Maybe there will be a lot to turn up in the newspaper archives. Silverseren^C 18:53, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I didn't find anything in the Newspaper archives. But since she was based in the UK, that makes sense. Barely any non-US papers are currently available in said archive. Maybe Gale would work? Though I'm not sure if Gale goes that far back in time. Silverseren^C 19:48, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Relatedly, this led me to Suzanne Bonnard, a Swiss competitor in the same Olympics, whose article was redirected today by User:Fram. The redirected article was even more stubby (just a statement that she competed, sourced to two databases) and would need better sourcing and more content to make a plausible standalone article. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:59, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I spent some time recently looking over a few of Lugnuts's articles just like this one, particularly stubs of female olympic athletes and developing them into moderately significant articles (Cindy Shatto, Betty Slade (diver) and Judy Stewart are a few that come to mind, among many others). I think it's fair to say there are many articles just like this, a stub which conveys that the athlete was an olympic participant and without any information about any other career achievements. I won't criticise Fram for the nomination, which would have been well intentioned, though sometimes sources and coverage show in the most unlikely of places, or where you expect if you're prepared to put the effort in to find them. Of course, that doesn't go for everyone and in some cases the individual is just not notable, though usually to get to the olympics, they would have had to have some prior recognition. I leaned keep on this occasion. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:48, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who was able to find and access sources for this. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:24, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

request for advice on article rating

I see that the article on Joan Mitchell is rated as a "start" Talk:Joan Mitchell. What should I do to get this article re-rated? My first thought was to remove all the current ratings, but perhaps there is a way to flag it for re-review. Any suggestions? WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 22:44, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Rerated a cautious C - could be higher. Frankly these ratings hardly matter at all. Johnbod (talk) 22:51, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I use User:Evad37/rater it's really handy! Mujinga (talk) 22:58, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Johnbod and Mujinga. It might not mean much in the scheme of things, but it was bugging me to have the article rated as a start :) WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 02:20, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

WomenArtistUpdates: Thanks for bringing this to our attention. On browsing through the article, it immediately looked to me as at least B class, if not a candidate for GA. This was confirmed by both ORES and Rater. I agree with Johnbod that assessment may not be very useful for general Wikipedia users but it seems to me that for editors, it provides a useful indication of how an article is progressing. It also shows which articles could be further developed to meet GA or FA. Joan Mitchell is a well known painter. It might therefore be worthwhile making an additional effort to bring the article up to GA.--Ipigott (talk) 10:46, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I can immediately spot some things I think a GA reviewer would want changed, but at a skim anyway it looks like it wouldn't be that much work to get it through. With the GA backlog drive going on, it seems to me like now would be a good time. But one person has a dramatically higher authorship attribution than anyone else [2]. I know anyone can nominate any article for GA, but it seems a bit weird to do so when another editor has put so much work into it. What's the etiquette here? Am I just overthinking this? -- asilvering (talk) 23:48, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

The editor in question, JennyHemlock, has spent almost all her editing time on this article and has little wider experience. Since 19 November she has no longer been active. If you, Asilvering, feel interested in taking this article to GA, I would go ahead, perhaps with support from wp:Women in Green. You could start by addressing some of the problems you have identified and then nominate.--Ipigott (talk) 07:16, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for tagging me into this discussion Ipigott. No concerns from me on you making the necessary fixes and nominating the article for GA asilvering. Cheers, --JennyHemlock (talk) 13:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

JennyHemlock: Good to hear from you. If we go ahead with development for GA, you'll no doubt be able to lend a hand.--Ipigott (talk) 14:58, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@JennyHemlock Since you're here, I think you should do the honours! The instructions are at WP:GANI (all you have to do at first is to add a template to the talk page of the article). I made the most obvious changes (lead was too short and had citations in it, etc), and while there are more things that could be changed I think it's ready to go. One thing I did not do, which you might want to do before submitting, is check the references. I only checked (and fixed) the ones that looked more obviously busted. I'm happy to pitch in during the review process if the reviewer asks for specific changes. -- asilvering (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Very good, Asilvering! I just submitted the nomination, will keep you posted. --JennyHemlock (talk) 15:41, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Cool I'll take this on for review, looking forward to working with you both Mujinga (talk) 17:31, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Marguerite Gautier-van Berchem - GA nomination & images

Hello all, I wondered if someone could help with the copyright for images used in this article on archaeologist Marguerite Gautier-van Berchem, which I'm helping to move through GA process, having picked up the suggested changes from the person who began the nomination. There's a number of images used on the page - most are fine, but I'm a bit puzzled by this one which is extracted from here, but they have different copyright tags? Just tagging @Eritha: and @BlueMoonset:, who are the reviewers for the nomination. Thanks in advance Lajmmoore (talk) 09:11, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Lajmmoore #1, while the photo does say it's from the WWI era, nothing from the origin source actually gives a date. The style of dress would indicate to me that it was more than likely actually taken after the war as it a later style to my eye. In any case, rules are given by date, so we need an actual date. #2 the rule for whether it is under copyright is not that it was made prior to X date, but that it was published. Neither the original image, nor the one from which it was extracted give a publishing date. Thus, unless you can find proof of publishing showing that it appeared in a paper prior to 1927, even though it says public domain, I don't think we can use it. On the two photos by Frédéric Boissonnas, it's a different case with them. They are probably okay in the PD per Never Published, Never Registered Works, because Boissonnas died prior to 1952 and the photos are 70 years past his death. But, you would still need to try to date them and confirm whether they were published to meet the never published bit and check to see if they were ever registered. I have no idea if Switzerland publishes copyright books by year, like the US does, but you can't even really check to see if a photo was registered without knowing the year (or seeing the back of the photograph, upon which many countries require the copyright info to be marked). Possibly shooting an e-mail to the Rath Museum and just asking them if there is any information on the back of any of these photos would answer a lot of the questions if they say yes. SusunW (talk) 14:28, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks so much SusunW for the detailed reply. Will give it all some thought, the picture of her could be used on the page under fair use still, so perhaps (for now, and for the GA review) it's a case of doing that. Lajmmoore (talk) 09:47, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Fair use was my thought as well Lajmmoore, but I'd probably shoot off an e-mail anyway. I've usually gotten good response from them. SusunW (talk) 14:15, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

WiR Literary Lists

Hi, all! I just wanted to share that I've created a few lists of literary awards that include a number of red-listed women. I'd love to have your help building these book lists out!

• Rise: A Feminist Book Project
• Lambda Literary Award for Bisexual Literature
• Lambda Literary Award for Lesbian Memoir or Biography
• Lambda Literary Award for Lesbian Mystery
• Lambda Literary Award for LGBT Studies
• Lambda Literary Award for Transgender Literature

Significa liberdade (talk) 02:40, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

These look FAB - Significa liberdade thank you! Lajmmoore (talk) 09:45, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Maybe we should create a page on LGBT literary awards? Perhaps there are others.--Ipigott (talk) 11:45, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

We could do that, but there is already List of LGBT-related awards, so it would mostly just be an expansion of that page.Significa liberdade (talk) 15:48, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Ipigott, Would you want to take a look at this draft? Draft:List of LGBT Literary Awards? I feel it's a bit messy right now. Do you have a better idea for how it should be organized? Significa liberdade (talk) 19:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

It looks to me as if it's coming along very well. I'll take a closer look tomorrow.--Ipigott (talk) 20:04, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Significa liberdade: The Stonewall Book Award looks important too. There seem to be quite a few more in Category:LGBT literary awards. There's no real urgency to include them all but it would be good to have the more important ones listed as time permits.--Ipigott (talk) 12:03, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Consider cross posting this over at WP:WikiProject Women writers, too. pburka (talk) 14:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Significa liberdade! I support Ian's suggestion. Create List of LGBT literary awards; add Category:Literary awards by genre and type. The List of LGBT-related awards page would have a link to List of LGBT literary awards. Just my $0.02. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:30, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Barbara Feinman Todd

I recently came across Barbara Feinman Todd, a ghostwriter for several celebrity authors, including for Hillary Clinton’s It Takes a Village. She’s had some scuffles with Clinton and Bob Woodward. Quite a life! Thriley (talk) 22:40, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Mary Elizabeth Wieting Johnson

I've come up with a draft at User:Eddie891/Mary Elizabeth Wieting Johnson, but I feel like there's some bits missing. Can anyone find more references? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:54, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

The lead paragraph needs geographical context - her nationality and the location of her playhouse. Please don't write as if everything happens in the USA unless otherwise specified: this is an international encyclopedia. Thanks. PamD 06:22, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Zobeda Khanom Chowdhury

My language skills prevent me from finding sourcing on this one, which is up for deletion. bn:জোবেদা খানম চৌধুরী may have some, but I am in no position to evaluate them. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 20:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Please be very careful about evaluating sources: what appeared to be a solid source at first glance was copied off the bn.wiki entry. From my previous experience with a Bengali topic, the vernacular media frequently plagiarizes content not only from sites like Wikipedia but also from each other. Books/journals from academic publishers etc. are the best. TrangaBellam (talk) 21:17, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

GAR for Burundi women's national football team

Burundi women's national football team has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:01, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Smithsonian looking for "Because of Her Story" interns

In conjunction with its American Woman's History Initiative, on 10 January the Smithsonian announced it was opening applications for interns. There are opportunities for 13 undergraduates or recent graduates to join an eight-week paid virtual internship from 13 June to 5 August. The Smithsonian actively supports improved coverage of women on Wikipedia.--Ipigott (talk) 11:06, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• The Smithsonian has announced another editathon on women in science on 20 January.--Ipigott (talk) 10:42, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Hazel Hutcheon at AfD

Please see this AfD for the Scottish skier. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:56, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Yara Salman - administrator advice needed?

Hello all, A new thing occurred to me this morning! I'd made a draft for entrepreneur Yara Salman, but when I tried to move it to mainspace, the name was blocked. My draft is here - which is an edited version of a translation from Arabic Wikipedia, with some new additions. I'm new to this aspect of page creation, so I wondered what the best course of action was? I think they meet GNG, especially due to their work in cryotherapy and the award from the Bahrain Businesswomen's Society, but I got a bit confused in trying to find out what the history and the reason's for the special permission for page creation were. Many thanks! Lajmmoore (talk) 09:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Looks as if Seraphimblade could sort this out.--Ipigott (talk) 11:50, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Lajmmoore: Looks as if Seraphimblade has not responded. Maybe Rosiestep or another administrator could help you to create the article.--Ipigott (talk) 12:11, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

• @Seraphimblade: Conversation here, to avoid admin edit conflicts. It looks like you blocked Yara Salman on April 26, 2021, after two previous admin deletions by Materialscientist for G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion. Please have a look the sandbox draft above, and either move it to mainspace for us, or give advice on what needs to be done to make that happen. Thanks for your assistance. — Maile (talk) 16:21, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

• I have also left messages on the talk pages of Seraphimblade and Materialscientist, as we need their input to make sure they won't revert moving this to Mainspace.— Maile (talk) 20:13, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks very much Maile66 - I'm learning a lot about the process and really appreciate your help. Thanks to Silver seren too, who has made brilliant edits to the draft since I posted here. Lajmmoore (talk) 20:51, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

• Are you okay with me nominating it for DYK, Lajmmoore, once the article is moved to mainspace? Silverseren^C 20:54, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

• Absolutely! That would be really appreciated. Lajmmoore (talk) 20:58, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

• FYI, admin Seraphimblade has answered on their talk page that they'll take a look at the block possibly later in the week. I'm not linking their user talk page for reasons that are explained therein. But since it's already linked above, you can find your way there to wait for their reply. — Maile (talk) 14:43, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

• Ipigott, I notice now that I was pinged. Sorry to be tardy to the conversation. I tend to avoid BLPs, so please consider pinging other WiR admins as they might have time/inclination for follow-up if it's still needed. Thanks. --Rosiestep (talk) 20:39, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

• Rosiestep: I'm afraid I don't know of any administrators who could deal with this. Despite Seraphimblade's message that he could probably deal with this by the end of last week, nothing has been done. I feel sorry for Lajmmoore who in my opinion has made a good start on this article and has now been waiting for a response for some time. If you can't suggest any other administrators who might be sympathetic to this request, perhaps there's some kind of procedure which can be followed.--Ipigott (talk) 21:20, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

• Ok... though I'm unclear why you thought of me as I thought you were aware that I don't work on BLPs. Nonetheless, it might make sense to compile a list of admins who are "Friends of WiR"; some names that come quickly to mind, in alpha order, include:

@Gamaliel, HickoryOughtShirt?4, Megalibrarygirl, and Victuallers and pagestalkers might be able to add other admin names. If we need more admins, someone might start a new section for that and make some recommendations and provide some encouragement to a few folks (Ipigott, looking at you!). --Rosiestep (talk) 21:27, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

• Rosiestep: Sorry about this misunderstanding. I was thinking more about your interest in women in business but in future I'll remember not to bother you with BLPs. Your suggestions of others who might help obviously worked.--Ipigott (talk) 09:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
• Rosiestep I personally thought of you for different reasons, that had nothing to do with what project this is on. As long as I've been on Wikipedia, you're the one I've been most seeing around as helpful to any number of individuals. Never knew you don't deal with BLPs, so maybe nobody else thought of that, either. I've always had a great respect for your ability to get things handled, and still do. If I erred ... ah, well. — Maile (talk) 22:20, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Lajmmoore Boldly moved to main space. Victuallers (talk) 21:42, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Victuallers Today you are a hero. The issue has been, IMO, that if we reverted what that other admin did, would we trigger some kind of back and forth from the blocking admin, who doesn't like being pinged. Thank you for being the brave one among us. — Maile (talk) 21:49, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Victuallers: Thanks very much for sorting this out. I should have pinged you earlier. Good to know that WiR members can rely on assistance.--Ipigott (talk) 08:38, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Sylvia Froos

I would be happy to have help with this draft on a singer, actress, and recording artist. FloridaArmy (talk) 05:06, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I'll take a look tomorrow. Must sleep now. Silverseren^C 06:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Things from Gallica I suspect are important, but am not knowledgeable enough to identify.

Names of conferences are funny things. Oftentimes, we have one generally accepted title for an event now, and thirty when you go to primary sources. As such, a selection of potentially valuable images I don't know enough about.

Conferences

Having checked, I think the first three in this category are the 12th conference of the International Alliance of Women. A couple state that they were taken in 1935 and published 1936

• Le Congrès International des Femmes d'Affaires : Miss Perkins prend la parole (1936, but an agency photo which are generally easier to show are out of copyright)
• Congrès en faveur du vote des femmes ; de gauche à droite, la duchesse de la Rochefoucauld, M. L. Martin, sénateur du Var prononçant un discours (a pretty bad photo, but...)
• Le Congrès International des Femmes d'Affaires : Mme Brunschwig, sous-secrétaire d'Etat accueille Miss Perkins au nom du Gouvernement français (Begging for a crop, but then, I suspect that was always the intent)restored

• Luncheon Party given to the I.C.W., party by the consul General and Mrs Hannah Butenschon at Christiania - Sixth Conference of the International Woman Suffrage Alliance
• Le Congrès féministe à Paris sous la présidence de Lady Aberdeen avec Madame Girard Mangin, Mademoiselle Avril de Sainte Croix, Madame Siegfried, Mademoiselle Alice Salomon, face à l'assistance, Pa... (1913)
• GENERAL VIEW OF THE FIRST SESSION OF THE CONGRESS ; CONGRÈS DE GENÈVE POUR LE SUFFRAGE DES FEMMES _ JUIN 1920 (not well-reproduced, but potentially valuable)
• Fru Ingers and some of her I.C.W. Guest at the luncheon Party given at the State apartements

Posters

• Exposition universelle, diplôme commémoratif : Madame Marguerite Durand, Secrétaire général de la Commission d'organisation du Congrès de la condition et des droits des femmes t

Individuals at conferences

• 3/11/28, Angers, congrès radical, Mme Brunel, déléguée de Toulouse
• Miss Jeannette Rankin de l'état du Montana, une des déléguées principales au Congrés international de femmes à Berne (we do have better pics of Rankin)

Text -only posters (I've only included ones obviously out of copyright for simplicity)

• Congrès des droits civils et du suffrage des femmes : [affiche : salle des Sociétés savantes, 26-27 et 28 juin (1908)]
• Conférence publique et gratuite par Madame Marguerite Durand : [affiche : publiciste, ancienne directrice de "La Fronde" sur "Le féminisme et les droits des femmes", samedi 26 février 1910, à 8 he...]
• Congrès international de la condition et des droits des femmes- Réunion à Paris les 5, 6, 7 et 8 septembre 1900 - Programm e Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.5% of all FPs} 11:56, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

File:Rose O'Neill - When We All Believe (Santa Claus and children illustration from the 1903 December 2 issue of Puck).jpg

So! You probably saw this - the initial work was my Christmas message this year - but I'm about ready to nominate this to Featured picture candidates after some more cleanup. If anyone sees any articles that could benefit from this image, it'd help spread a fascinating woman's work around a bit - and the more links to Rose O'Neill on Wikipedia, the better, I figure. It's a bit of a seasonal image, though, so try to keep the uses relevant. Fingers crossed to getting her work on Wikipedia's main page next Christmas! Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.5% of all FPs} 11:37, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

And it passed. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.5% of all FPs} 11:58, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

What was the Gary Society?

I'm working on Draft:Sylvia Froos with FloridaArmy and I ran across this news piece that repeatedly mentions the "Gary Society" as a group that tried to enforce child labor laws. It mentions the ladies of the society, but I can't seem to find any further information about this group that seems relevant. Was Gary a shortened or alternative term for some other name I should be looking up? Is Gary just referring to Gary, Indiana? But then why would they show up elsewhere? I've also seen some books and things discuss the "Gary schools", though I'm not sure if that's relevant here. Anyone have any idea or extra knowledge regarding this 1910's and 1920's group? Silverseren^C 15:31, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

There was one in Rochester, New York ([3]), so probably not a Gary, Indiana, thing. It's attested elsewhere as "Gary Society" ([4], [5]), but I'm wondering whether it was actually "Cary Society", which was a women's missionary organization around the turn of the 20th century ([6]). AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:53, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

"Doris Eaton Travis" (Ziegfeld Girl) makes reference to, "Each year until she turned 16 she had to change her name (aka: Doris Levant, Lucille Levant) to avoid the ('Gary Society') Child Labor Laws." — Maile (talk) 16:23, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

So, is it just a nickname for anyone involved in advocating for child labor laws or was it an actual official group of people? Silverseren^C 16:31, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Not a lot out there about this. But this PDF [7] says " Doris had to frequently change her name to avoid the Gary Society, a watchdog organization created to uphold child labor laws" This was in New York, so it had nothing do with Gary, Indiana. We know it was an organization in New York, but who or what it was named after, I have not found. — Maile (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

There's a reference to it in Hold the Roses which also spells it as the Gerry Society. The child actor Rose Marie's mother wants to avoid calls from the society, so moves the family to New Jersey, suggesting it may have been specifically a New York organization. pburka (talk) 17:11, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

It's Gerry Society, definitely. [8], etc. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:14, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

There we go then. Great job! So there's already an article on it. Looks like I need to make a redirect for this spelling then. Silverseren^C 17:25, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

According to The Wall Street Journal, vice president Elbridge Gerry's name was pronounced more like "Gary", and he was Elbridge Thomas Gerry's grandfather. So I suspect the "Gerry Society" was properly pronounced "Gary Society", leading to the historical spelling confusion. pburka (talk) 17:29, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Invitation to join the Feminism and Folklore Wikipedia Campaign 2022

Dear member users of Wiki project Women in Red,

You are humbly invited to participate and organise Feminism and Folklore 2022 writing competion on the English Wikipedia from 1st February 2022 till 31st March 2022. This year Feminism and Folklore will focus on feminism, women biographies and gender-focused topics for the project in league with Wiki Loves Folklore gender gap focus with folk culture theme on Wikipedia.

You can help us in enriching the folklore documentation on Wikipedia from your region by creating or improving articles based on folklore around the world, including, but not limited to folk festivals, folk dances, folk music, women and queer personalities in folklore, folk culture (folk artists, folk dancers, folk singers, folk musicians, folk game athletes, women in mythology, women warriors in folklore, witches and witch hunting, fairy tales and more. Users can contribute to new articles or translate from the list of suggested articles.

Organisers are requested to work on following action items to sign up their communities for the project:

1. Create a page for the contest.
2. Set up fountain tool/dashboard.
3. Create the local list and mention the timeline and local/international prizes.
4. Request local admin for site notice
5. link the local page and the fountain/dashboard link on the meta project page.

Learn more about the contest and prizes from our project page. Feel free to contact us on our meta talk page or reach out to us on Email if you need any assistance.

Looking forward to your immense coordination.

Thank you.
Tiven Gonsalves
Feminism and Folklore Team

--✝iѵɛɳ२२४०^{†ลℓк †๏ мэ} 06:27, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks for alerting us, Tiven2240 and including so many of our EN Wikipedia articles as a basis for coverage in other languages. Perhaps we can include Folklore as part of Art+Activism in March, as we did in 2020.--Ipigott (talk) 07:27, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Sure that would be great. :) --✝iѵɛɳ२२४०^{†ลℓк †๏ мэ} 07:30, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

@Tiven2240 and Ipigott, yes, that sounds lovely: Art+Activism(to include Feminism)+Folklore! --Rosiestep (talk) 17:05, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Marie-Claire Chevalier and the legalization of abortion in France

Marie-Claire Chevalier died a few days ago. Her case, known as the Bobigny trial, lead to the Veil Act which eventually legalized abortion in France. I created two brief drafts for the trial and the legal act, but if anyone reads French or enjoys translating, it would be great to have some assistance. Thriley (talk) 05:31, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I did most of the Veil Act article for you and copied it into your draft, but I'm not sure it's an "Act"? The other French laws we have listed in Category:French law are all "Law" not "Act" and I don't know which is preferable. Actually, I think you might want to rename it Loi Veil (that's what I used in the translation I tossed you) to avoid the possibility that people read it as a law about veils. Warning that not all the citations came through properly, so you or someone else should check it against the fr article, and also warning that I haven't verified any of the content against the citations. -- asilvering (talk) 03:02, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I agree with you on the article name. I used Veil Act just because the red link in the Marie-Claire Chevalier article called it that. It is a work in progress certainly. I’ll check the citations. Really surprised it wasn’t covered in English Wikipedia already. Always fun to expand the encyclopedia to new territory. Thanks again, Thriley (talk) 04:57, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Roza Sarkisyan

Hello all, Would a couple of people mind watchlisting Roza Sarkisyan - a very new editor took all the references out earlier, and while I want to show Ripsimer1987 good faith, extra eyes would be appreciated. They did make some spelling changes e.g. Sarkisyan to Sarkisian, so I'd be grateful if anyone here with Ukrainian could take a look. Happy Tuesday all Lajmmoore (talk) 08:24, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Watchlisted. --ARoseWolf 15:05, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

@Lajmmoore: Interesting variety of names: her blog podcast is at https://aristocrats.fm/podcasts/taking-the-stage-roza-sarkisyan-psihoz-o-4-48/, so that is a form of her name she has presumably chosen to use; this source, the only latin-alphabet source in the article, uses "Rosa Sarkisian" (note first name). I'm sure she needs redirects from all variations (including her middle name), but I don't know which is the "right" title for the article.

Also, the article reads as if she is "the" Director of the theatre, but I can find no mention of her on its website under either spelling - it has a couple of Directors at the head of its staff - General Director and General Director-Art Director (who was previously General Director). She may be "a" director who has worked with the theatre, but that's not quite the same. Searching the theatre website for her under either spelling in English or under the Ukrainian spelling found no hits ( not 100% sure the search is working...). PamD 16:46, 25 January 2022 (UTC) (corrected 17:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC))

Another source for the spelling "Rosa Sarkisian" (only a namedrop). PamD 16:51, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

And the French article is at "Rosa Sarkisyan" and the Dutch at "Roza Sarkisyan". I don't know what the standard is for transliterating Ukrainian into Latin alphabet (and are there different standards depending on the language of the target use? not my area!). PamD 17:02, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

See also the range of spellings at Sargsyan. That says it is an Armenian name: one of those words which, to me, is an alert to "May be a topic with massive historic and political sensitivities and contentious edits, tread carefully" (much the same effect as WikiProject Rodeo after a recent run-in). PamD 17:09, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Seems to me if we have a reliable source that matches how she has preferred to spell her name then we would title it with the spelling she chose in deference to the fact it is a BLP about the subject and alternate spellings would be redirects. I would yield final say to anyone with a deeper understanding than I of naming policy on Wikipedia. --ARoseWolf 17:22, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I've created redirects from all likely variations. I've added their "Rcat" templates, so with luck no-one will edit the redirects, and it would be possible to move the article to any of those variations quite simply! @ARoseWolf: I think all we have in Latin alphabet is her choice (or someone's choice, anyway) of URL for the podcast (Roza Sarkisyan); two probably RSs using Rosa Sarkisian, and an editor determined to spell it as Roza Sarkisian, to which it has just been moved! PamD 17:24, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

And I've just noticed that this source spells her name both Rosa and Roza! PamD 17:34, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The source which is supposed to verify her as the Director does call her a young director but does not specify her as the Director of the theater and the only way one could make that leaping conclusion is because the theater she is/was a part of is in parenthesis next to the play being performed. If you look at the other directors though you will find they are not necessarily the Directors of their respective theaters but young up and coming directors who won this competition and were selected to translate and direct these respective British plays by the British Council. Perhaps she is the Director but nothing points to that so far. --ARoseWolf 17:43, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

She's had about as much luck with her name as I've had with mine! Asareel, Asreel, Azriel, Azariel. I've even had someone spell it Asarell before. Pronunciation is even more fun. --ARoseWolf 17:49, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Asa footnote, there is no easy way of resolving Latinised versions of names in Ukrainian or Russian. Just take a name like Tchaikovsky. Variations include Tchaïkovski, Tschaikowski, Tjajkovskij, Tsjaikovski, Čajkovskij, Chaikovski, Czajkowski, etc., etc. Such names in European languages simply depend on an approximation of the spelling which would best render the sound of the name in question.--Ipigott (talk) 14:37, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

We have WP:RUROM and WP:UKROM as guidance for transliterating Cyrillic in these cases on wikipedia, though! I don't know if there is a compelling reason not to use WP:UKROM here. This gives us "Roza Volodymyrivna Sarkisian", which is the current form in the article. -- asilvering (talk) 21:12, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, those work pretty well for English but I think the question here was to what extent should we include redirects from Romanized spelling in other languages. I would be inclined not to include all possible variations but only those which are used in key sources in languages other than English if they do not duplicate info in the English-language sources. If the person or place in question is important enough, there will be links to articles in other languages with the appropriate spellings.--Ipigott (talk) 12:36, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello all! What an interesting discussion, big thanks to PamD and ARoseWolf for their investigations, and thanks to Asilvering for the links - I'd not come across them before, very useful. Thanks to you Ipigott too! Lajmmoore (talk) 16:38, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah, my bad, that's not the impression I got at all. Though I think PamD's redirects here are a good idea because they prevent the page from being endlessly moved back and forth between spelling variations. -- asilvering (talk) 00:35, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Those redirects don't prevent any future page moves - you can move a page over a redirect as long as the redirect hasn't been edited since creation, which is why I flagged up the fact that I had added the "Rcat" templates as those tend to be added by other editors and make a redirect into one which can't be moved over. I added the redirects to (a) help readers who might look for an alternative form, (b) help future editors who might otherwise create a duplicate article accidentally (c) make sure to pick up any incoming links already in Wikipedia as red links from other versions of the name (there weren't any in this case). @Ipigott: I don't think "the question here was to what extent should we include redirects from Romanized spelling in other languages", but there was an initial question over what spelling should be the title of the article, which was one of a raft of changes (including losing the middle name altogether) introduced by an inexperienced but determined editor. I think we should in general include redirects from any plausible spelling used in any of the English-language sources we see, and any more complete form of name, and a reasonable number of combinations of those variations. PamD 08:35, 28 January 2022 (UTC)