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February 21

Rules for how to name black keys in music

Good music theorists follow the "make sure you don't substitute enharmonic equivalents" when spelling a diatonic scale. Each letter name must be used once. That is, a D scale must use the notes D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D (with an appropriate accidental attached to any number of the letter names.)

However, some people recently are preferring a different rule: this is "always write black keys as sharps; never use flats". Any reason this rule is used by some people?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:06, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

The only reason I can think of is that if you're playing a scale, you start on the tonic and proceed in a northerly direction up the keyboard, so it kinda sorta makes sense to have D-E-F♯-G-A-B-C♯-D, rather than D-E-G♭-A-B-D♭-D, because F♯ is arrived at logically by moving upwards from E to F, and again upwards from F to F♯. To use flats would require moving logically from E upwards to G, then downwards to G♭. Easily done, but for learners it might seem counter-intuitive given that the actual notes played are all higher than the previous ones.

This is all fine in the context of a scale that is played once, in an ascending direction only. But it breaks down when you get into ascending followed by descending scales. And as for key signatures, forget it.

But this applies only to scales that have sharps in their key signatures: (major) G, D, A, E, B, F♯, C♯; (minor) E, B, F♯, C♯, G♯, D♯, A♯. When it comes to keys with flats in their key signatures, it makes zero sense to write their scales with sharps. E♭ major is E♭,F, G, A♭, B♭, C, D, E♭, NOT D♯, F, G, G♯, A♯, C, D, D♯.

-- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:37, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Anyway, who are those "some people" and what's their "recent" activity? Is "some people" = "people who don't know music", by any chance? Before you expect an answer here, please provide refs that actual, competent musicians are doing this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:03, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Do a Google search on "F, G, A, A" and look to see if any of these will talk about the F major scale using A sharp. Georgia guy (talk) 11:21, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Why would I want to do a Google search on this? You made that claim, so you provide the links. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:25, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Here's an example: https://chord.rocks/5-string-bass-guitar/scales/f-major Georgia guy (talk) 12:22, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Home-made guitar-note finder apps may or may not be programmed to follow the standard conventions of western notation. --Jayron32 14:53, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

• I've not heard the rule about avoiding flats; for example the C minor scale is written C, D, E♭, F, G, A♭, B♭. The sharps don't work here, because then you'd have D and D#, but no E, you'd have a G, G# and an A#, but no B. Similarly, the F major scale is written F, G, A, B♭, C, D, E. I don't know how you write that without a B♭. You write whatever sharps or flats are needed to make the scale work and give you exactly one of each letter. There are always seven diatonic notes in any standard major or minor scale or mode of the major scale, and these 7 notes are always given the letters ABCDEFG exactly once, with sharps and flats assigned to make that work out. You can play other notes over such a key, but those are always considered chromatic notes (i.e. "accidentals"). This is expressly for making the reading of sheet music easier; if you double a letter, then you need to make a line/space on the music staff do double duty. If you make sure to use each letter exactly once, you efficiently use the space on your staff. (In this description, I'm not including other scales that aren't based on the 7-note model, such as pentatonic scales, which are of course missing letters, or some of the blues scales which include multiple versions of the same letter. Blues music does not really have a sheet music tradition, which is why they developed different conventions.) --Jayron32 14:43, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I think the reason might just depend on what the key signature uses. If the key signature uses sharps, then usually sharps will be used (so A#, B# (C natural), C#, etc). If the key signature uses flats flats will be used (Ab, Bb, Cb (B natural), etc). However i Have seen some pieces use both. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 02:22, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

A key signature will usually only use all sharps or all flats, but there may be Accidentals that use either in the same piece. --Jayron32 12:09, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes I know. It's just common that if the key signature uses sharps, then the accidentals will be sharps, and vice versa. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 13:53, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Excuse me. I understand these comments, but what I'm saying is that these days SOME people use the rule that we ALWAYS notate black keys as sharps, regardless of logic. This means that to them, a major scale can have 2 notes with the same letter name that differ in that one has a sharp sign, and it likewise can have no note with a letter name. To them, the scale is D♯-F-G-G♯-A♯-C-D-D♯. I want to know why this point of view is used sometimes. Georgia guy (talk) 14:36, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I've never heard of that rule. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 14:40, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

This rule is followed by a web site called "Ultimate Guitar". Georgia guy (talk) 14:52, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

That's not any sort of rule. In fact, Ultimate Guitar even gives you the option to display the Sharps as flats. How do I know? I've used the website before. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 14:55, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Look here at another web site: https://www.scales-chords.com/scaleinfo.php?skey=F&sname=major Georgia guy (talk) 14:56, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Ok. But do you know where it actually states that's a rule and not just a personal preference? ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 14:59, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Even if it's just a personal preference, why do people have it?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:00, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Why not? It's not a bad thing. Just wait until you start seeing double sharps and double flats. Or Cb and B# and Fb and E# ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 15:11, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't follow the rules of standard music theory. We all learn it's important to realize that enharmonic notes are not interchangeable in music theory despite having the same key on a piano keyboard. Georgia guy (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

..... You're gonna have to show me something that says that. Because I have never heard that enharmonic notes are not interchangeable. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 15:20, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

D-A♯ is an augmented 5th. D-B♭ is a minor 6th. Georgia guy (talk) 15:32, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Wh- huh? How on earth does that make any sense when they are the same exact note? ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 15:33, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

It depends on the interval function in the music you are using. Enharmonic notes have the same pitch (in equal temperament; in other tuning systems they may not!) but they will be labeled differently (i.e. as either A♯ or B♭) depending on how the note functions within a key, a chord, a scale, or an interval. --Jayron32 16:26, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Partially repeating some of the responses above: (1) The black keys of a key instrument such as a piano are not notes. They are keys that are used to produce notes. (2) These keys as such have no names by themselves but may be designated by the name of the note they produce. (3) In Western music, the scale of F major goes F–G–A–B♭–C–D–E–F. No professional musician will name these notes differently. (4) Likewise, the scale of B major goes like B–C♯–D♯–E–F♯–G♯–A♯–B. Note that each has a different letter until we reach the octave. (5) When you play these scales on a piano, the key used to play A♯, a black key, is the same as was used to play B♭. While different notes, they share a key. (6) Until the invention of equal temperament, this was an issue. After playing a composition in F major, a clavichord or whatever key instrument was used had to be retuned for playing a composition in B major, otherwise the A♯ notes would sound off. On a well-tempered keyboard instrument, both A♯ and B♭ are a bit off (in different directions), but so little that we got used to accepting it. (7) Nevertheless, they remain different notes. Using the name A♯ for the B♭ note goes against the logic of the Western musical scales.  --Lambiam 16:45, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry but your logic makes no sense. You say this, "On a well-tempered keyboard instrument, both A♯ and B♭ are a bit off" however this is impossible since the same key is used to play both those notes. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 16:52, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

You build scales, chords, and keys using intervals. Let's take that B♭ in the F major scale. That note is a perfect fourth interval above the root (F). That means that in just intonation it should be a frequence at a 4:3 ratio over the root. Now, lets look at the B major scale which has an A♯ at the major seventh interval. In just intonation, that is a 15:8 ratio over the root. It turns out that those two notes will not be the same frequency exactly. They will be off from each other by a few percent. With some instruments (like voice or violin) where there is complete freedom to pick a note by ear, this isn't much of a problem, but for many instruments (like guitar or piano) where notes have to be a fixed location, this creates an issue. So we tune our pianos and guitars using what is called a "temperament system", basically picking a value for A♯/B♭ which is somewhat between the two values, so that it's not exactly correct in either key, but it is close to both of them. Modern instruments are almost always tuned to 12 tone equal temperament. --Jayron32 17:16, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Forget it. None of this makes any sense whatsoever. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 17:19, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

This video from the music theory YouTube channel "12Tone" does a better job explaining 12 TET than I did. There are probably other videos out there that explain it well too. If you want some good music theory channels, besides 12Tone, check out "David Bennett Piano", "Adam Neely", "Charles Cornell", all of which are really good to help you learn the basics of music theory. --Jayron32 17:23, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

See also our articles on Just intonation and the resulting problematic Wolf interval.  --Lambiam 17:30, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Please don't use part of my signature for that again. I understand you were trying to make a joke but it seems like you're making fun of me for not understanding― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 17:33, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

• An easier way to explain it is this: the musical scale was not invented to describe the notes of the piano. The piano was invented to play music. When I sing, I can sing literally any frequency in my range. My voice can vary in pitch continuously through a whole range of frequencies. However, we have found that singing certain frequencies together (either next to each other in a melody, or at the same time in harmony) sounds good. Those frequency relationships that sound good together are called intervals, and in our music system, there are 12 of them: minor second, major second, minor third, major third, perfect fourth, tritone, perfect fifth, minor sixth, major sixth, minor seventh, major seventh, and octave. We built chords, melodies, scales, and keys by picking specific notes from that list of 12. Now, notice I haven't given those notes any names, or defined any specific frequencies (pitches) yet. Just explained the system. If we're just singing together, I can pick any note I want as my root note, and then we can build melodies and harmonies around that by listening to each other and singing the correct notes (ear training involves the ability of musicians to pick out intervals by listening to them played together). We don't need letters or keys on a piano, or anything. Just listening and singing.
• The problem comes when I need to assign these notes to certain musical instruments that have fixed keys or frets. Now, I can't start playing at any note I want, I'm confined to whatever that string is tuned to. We need a standardized system so that all the notes sound good together. There are different systems, each of which have their own problems. Our choices fall into two categories: just intonation and equal temperament. A "just intonation" system makes the entire instrument sound perfect when tuned to a single root note. The instrument sounds great, but ONLY in one key. In all of the other keys, they notes sound a bit off. Like it's out of tune in every other key except the one you tuned your instrument to. In equal temperament, we take all of the 12 musical keys and "average them out" a little bit, so every note is just a little bit out of tune, but now they are all out of tune by the same amount so that we don't have to retune our instrument just to change keys.
• The other thing we seem to be having trouble with is explaining enharmonic notes, which are notes that have the same frequency, but us different letters in different keys. That's easy enough to explain. You build a scale or a chord based on intervals first, and then name the notes based on the interval spacing. The intervals come first, then we follow the "standard convention" of using each of the seven letters once for each interval. For historical reasons we don't need to get into here, the "unadorned" scale is the C major scale, C D E F G A B, which is built on the intervals of the major scale. If we build another scale or mode, like D minor or C Mixolydian or whatever, then we find that we need to choose notes that are either a semitone higher or lower than they would lie on the C scale. If they are a semitone lower, we call that a "flat" and if they are a semitone higher, we call that a "sharp". That's it. In order to make music readable on musical staves (i.e. sheet music) we developed conventions that mean we should only use letters once, we should use all sharps or all flats, etc. etc. These rules or conventions were invented to make reading sheet music easier. If you want to call the fourth degree of the F major scale "A#", you're not wrong, in the sense that you'll still hit the same key on the piano, except there won't be any "#" symbol on the sheet music. It will be notated as a B-flat. "But what about this website I found that calls it an A#?" I don't know, ask them. That's not how it's done in traditional sheet music. --Jayron32 18:48, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Here is a concrete example of how a given note does not necessarily always have the exact same frequency. It depends on how the notes are tuned. Using just tuning, a perfect fourth (IV) corresponds to the ratio ${\tfrac {4}{3}},$ a perfect fifth (V) to ${\tfrac {3}{2}},$ and a major sixth (VI) to ${\tfrac {5}{3}}.$ Now there are (at least) two ways to tune the ninth (IX) from a given, already tuned note, say C. So we need to tune the D one octave up. We can use V + V = IX, which gives a ratio ${\tfrac {3}{2}}\times {\tfrac {3}{2}}={\tfrac {9}{4}}=2.25,$ the Pythagorean tuning. We can, however, choose to use VI + IV = IX, which may make more sense in the context of some scale (such as A major), but which results in ${\tfrac {5}{3}}\times {\tfrac {4}{3}}={\tfrac {20}{9}}=2.22222...,$ considerably different. The equitempered middle road is to use $2^{14/12}=2.24492...,$ neatly in between.  --Lambiam 13:57, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Georgia guy, guitar players frequently don't approach music notation in the same way as many other musicians. They often won't learn how to read sheet music or study much music theory. Since the sites you're mentioning are ultimate-guitar.com and chord.rocks, both intended for amateur guitar players, I wouldn't advise reading too much into it. As far as I know, there's no debate among people with rudimentary music theory knowledge or classical training in a non-guitar instrument. Firefangledfeathers 14:11, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Although.. a schoolmate of mine advised me I was to study bass guitar if I was interested in the contemporary musical trend once. I might have complied, but I did not. After a long while I was rewarded with what I wanted, an opinion about why the electric guitar was to impose itself face to synthesizer organs in the 1970's (Frankenstein). That is that because steel stringed amplified guitar players demonstrate where to is, ( or are ) speedy escapes from that well tempered, sure but also rather artificial approximation. How that, it's about what's leading you there: heroical pose, placid play on string bending making listeners fret about finally getting with at coordinated microtonality. --Askedonty (talk) 16:04, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Electric guitar players of the 1970s were hardly the first to use microtonal note bending to achieve their musical sound. Such Blue notes had been part of the standard jazz and blues repertoire since before Edgar Winter was born. Incidentally, the lead lines in Frankenstein are played on on an ARP 2600, which is a type of analogue synthesizer; but is capable of bending notes quite well using various knobs. There is a guitarist on the song (Ronnie Montrose on the studio version, Rick Derringer on many of the live performances you can find on YouTube), but they play mostly rhythm parts. One particularly well-known live version, where you can see how Winter achieves much of his tones and melodies quite well, is from the Old Grey Whistle Test and can be found on YouTube fairly easily (not linking due to copyright issues). --Jayron32 16:30, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Double-sharps don't usually require microtonal intervals. However, half-sharps do. See, for example, neutral third, which is a interval partway between a minor third and a major third. In the key of C, such a note would be an E half-sharp. --Jayron32 18:15, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Double sharps are usually used when the note is already sharped in the key signature (it would equate to 1 whole step, or to the next black key). ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 18:20, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. Some keys on the circle of fifths actually need double sharps, see G-sharp major. It is usually written as A-flat major because that avoids double sharps; the F-double-sharp note in G-sharp major (i.e. the major seventh interval) is enharmonically equivalent to G-natural. --Jayron32 19:32, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Oh, and my response above appears out of context because the edit I was responding to is here. It was rightly removed per WP:DNFT, but if someone wants to see why I suddenly brought up double sharps, I didn't. I was responding to a comment that did, and seemed to confuse them with microtonal/quartertone notes. --Jayron32 19:34, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I knew there were sharp equivalents to flat keys! I myself often get confused by double sharps because I have to think "is it a double sharp in relation to the natural of the note or the sharp of the note" and I can never remember which it is. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 19:46, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

QED.

The OP asked about the statement "Always write black keys as sharps; never use flats". Any reason this rule is used by some people?? Yes. The reason is that they are musical ignoramuses. According to this insane idea, the scale of 'C major' should be written B#, C##, D##, E#, F##, G##, A##, B#. MinorProphet (talk) 20:58, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, no. Those are all white keys. The OP's question was about specifying black keys as sharps. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:23, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid you overlooked the visual accompaniment.  --Lambiam 00:47, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid that keyboard is a satanic perversion of everything I hold most sacred. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:39, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

How to sharpen

I was hoping to post a pic of the quarter-tone grand piano made in c.1924 by Grotrian-Steinweg, perhaps either for the microtonal composers Ivan Wyschnegradsky or Hans Barth (no article). Piano, An Encyclopedia (not sure if this is allowed) says this on p. 127: "Grotrian-Steinweg also made a "double grand", this with black, white and brown keys and 20 notes to the octave." See also Enharmonic keyboard. I recall seeing a photo many years ago, perhaps in the Oxford Companion to Music ed. by Percy Scholes?, but all I could find was this link, which shows something other than what I remembered. Definitely not this monster. Or there's always this cheat by Charles Ives with two pianos tuned a quarter-tone apart. MinorProphet (talk) 04:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

As frets are easier to work with than creating whole new strings and keys and the like, microtonal guitars are more common (not like "walk into Guitar Center and pull one off the shelf" common, but still moreso than microtonal pianos.) See here. Also, digital keyboards are often quite capable of microtonal and non-standard tuning, but are still confined to the standard layout. --Jayron32 13:21, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

@Jayron32: THere aren't just microtonal guitars but fretless guitars which can play infinitely many more notes. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 13:22, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. Bumblefoot's signature guitar is a twin neck with the top neck as fretless. Gabriel Akhmad Marin uses a similar guitar as well. --Jayron32 13:26, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Referring to the discussion above: Nobody mentioned the Comma (music), which I first encountered as the Pythagorean comma - the difference between five octaves, where each octave is a doubling of frequency, and 12 fifth (where a perfect fifth has a ratio of 3:2). Equal temperament is the attempt to split the difference over the discrete keys of a piano (or similar discrete instrument). When I was first explained this by a professional musician, I was deeply hurt by the way the world does not perfectly correspond to mathematical beauty... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:21, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Or is it a failure of mathematics, in particular its logarithm function, in not producing a mathematical beaut of a perfectly rational value for $\log _{2}3\approx 1{\tfrac {7}{12}}$?  --Lambiam 16:33, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

What article lists "sacred cow" political issues around the world?

I remember reading an article which listed examples of political issues in democracies around the world which enjoy near-universal support in that country. For example, the article stated that in Canada, universal healthcare enjoys an almost unquestionable status, such that no political candidate would ever campaign on eliminating it. I think the article might also talk about how in the United States, support for Israel also enjoys a similarly universal status. What was that article? 2001:569:7FC7:6B00:4CFB:E701:F781:CA2 (talk) 13:24, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Nevermind, I found it: Third rail (politics). 2001:569:7FC7:6B00:4CFB:E701:F781:CA2 (talk) 13:54, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

February 22

When will the Pandemic classify as over?

Greetings to all contributors, editors and admin, I have a serious question in a deep regard of the pandemic that is Covid-19. The issue is that I still understand that there are remaiing cases in the world but scientist are trying to label it an Endemic but still isn't such. When will this officially end and is there any proper insight as to how it ends? I wanted to post this on the talk page of that article but it won't let me, please help me answer some questions cause I am at a loss here.(talk) 01:18, 22 February 2022 (UTC)SCPdude629

The classification of an outbreak as a "pandemic" is unofficial,^[1] so there is also no authority to classify a pandemic as being "over". Local health authorities may declare that the COVID-19 outbreak has no longer an epidemic status as far as they are concerned, which may not be a global outlook.  --Lambiam 09:55, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

COVID-19 will become another recurrent disease that health systems and societies will have to manage. For example, the death toll from omicron seems to be similar in most countries to the level of a bad influenza season in northern hemisphere countries.... The era of extraordinary measures by government and societies to control SARS-CoV-2 transmission will be over. After the omicron wave, COVID-19 will return but the pandemic will not.

COVID-19 will continue but the end of the pandemic is near (19 Jan 2022) from The Lancet.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Unofficial or not, the WHO, an organisation with some respect, did actually designate it as such and it's fair to expect to have it designated over at some point, though the process or even the designating party is probably uncertain. --Ouro (blah blah) 03:57, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Camp names for Camp 9-15 for Italian Wars of Prisoners in India from Second World War - urgent help needed

cross posted to WP:RDM. Please answer there. --Jayron32 12:07, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
There was a camp at Sihore district in village DELAWADI (ABOUT 45 KM FROM BHOPAL), Madhya Pradesh, India. It housed Italian Prisoners of Wars (POWs) of Second World War for a few years. After searching and speaking to British Library I managed the find that the ‘Camp number 9-16 housed Italian Prisoners of Wars’ in Bhopal, In India, but there is no information on camp number 9-15. We know that camp number 16 was hospital in Bhopal. The Wikipedia confirms the above - https://wiki.fibis.org/enwiki/w/POW_Camps_in_India I would be grateful if someone from the community can help or direct me in the right direction to obtain the answer to below question: camp names and/or location for camps 9-15 within Bhopal or which camp number represents the camp at Sihore district in village DELAWADI (ABOUT 45 KM FROM BHOPAL), Madhya Pradesh, India. I look forward to receiving the community support on the above. Yours Sincerely — Preceding unsigned comment added by IOW63 (talk • contribs) 11:01, 22 February 2022 (UTC) You only need to post your question on one reference desk. --Viennese Waltz 11:04, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know. I am sorry for posting the question int two places. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IOW63 (talk • contribs) 14:21, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

"No evidence of Russian troops crossing the border"

I'm confused by conflicting information from reliable sources. Probably it isn't conflicting and I'm just misunderstanding. Our article on events in Donbas, citing Sky News, Repubblica, Newsweek, and The Guardian: "several independent media outlets confirmed that Russian forces were entering Donbas." BBC news article on the Ukraine crisis (near the bottom of the article): "There has as yet been no evidence of Russian troops crossing the border into the rebel-held areas of east Ukraine, despite Mr Putin's order to conduct what he calls peacekeeping functions." Is the BBC quietly contradicting all the other news outlets?  Card Zero  (talk) 22:34, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

In a crisis the news is often confusing, and the way it is presented may add to the confusion. One issue may be that the news reports were written at different times. But I think the BBC should have used a formulation more in the line of “At the moment we have not yet seen evidence of ...". The fact that one has not seen such evidence does not mean it does not exist. Another issue is the definition of "Russian forces". Does this include mercenaries, or only troops that are part of the regular army?  --Lambiam 00:03, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Right, yes. So far as I can tell it's like this:

• Putin has ordered troops in,
• The deputy foreign secretary told the press troops have not actually been sent in,
• Some troops of some kind have been caught on video but might not be regular Russian army.

 Card Zero  (talk) 00:46, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Off topic
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Supposedly there have already been Russian troops in the area for years. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:22, 23 February 2022 (UTC) Factually, there are US troops stationed in over 100 countries, including mine. But I'm not panicking yet. HiLo48 (talk) 05:18, 23 February 2022 (UTC) Generally speaking, those US troops are there legally. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:03, 23 February 2022 (UTC) Let's face it, most U.S. troops are in countries in the sort of "Nice country here, would be a shame if someone broke it" sort of way... --Jayron32 11:46, 23 February 2022 (UTC) Sure. Just think how much better off the world would be if we hadn't joined World War II. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:52, 23 February 2022 (UTC) That's a fantastic non-sequitur, but okay. We wouldn't probably have been better off. --Jayron32 16:17, 23 February 2022 (UTC) The question isn't “what would have happened if the US had not entered WWII?” Rather, the question is “What would those nations where US troops are / have been stationed since WWII have had to give up to pay for their own defense?” The obvious candidates are universal healthcare and welfare provisions … two things the US has not done particularly well by OECD standards. DOR (HK) (talk) 17:05, 23 February 2022 (UTC) Those U.S. troops are mostly defending those countries against having leadership that is unfriendly to business interests in the U.S. The reason the U.S. doesn't have healthcare and welfare provisions has very little to do with the defense budget, and everything to do with the rich people in the U.S. convincing the marginally-less-than-totally-destitute people in the U.S. that it is in their interest to fuck over the people poorer than themselves. What the U.S. citizenry already pays in insurance premiums and co-pays and the like would completely fund a universal healthcare system several times over. The U.S. people have been falsely convinced they don't want such a system. --Jayron32 17:10, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

This question appears to be settled now. :( --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:18, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

February 23

What did Truman say that so shocked the troops?

In a footnote on page 291 of Mallinson, Allan (2006). Too Important for the Generals: Losing and Winning the First World War. London: Bantam Press. ISBN 9780593058183. we read "During a sudden attack in the Vosges Mountains, American troops began to flee. Some of them were stopped by Captain (later President of the United States) Harry S. Truman of the Missouri National Guard, serving with the 129th Field Artillery. He is said to have used language so shocking, learned while working on the Santa Fe railroad, that they promptly rallied. There are leadership tricks not taught at West Point - or Sandhurst". What I want to know is - what did he actually say? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 01:28, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Truman's account of 'The Battle of Who Ran' was given to Jonathan W. Daniels for The Man of Independence, pp. 96-7 and according to Daniels "...imprecations upon the maternity of the Irish and the courage of the Irish". The account of Father Curtis Tiernan, a Catholic chaplain on the scene is given in Steinberg, Alfred (1962). The Man from Missouri. pp. 46–7. "It took the skin off the ears of those boys." and "It turned those boys right around", which unfortunately i only find a snippet. fiveby(zero) 03:52, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Similarly, in the biography Truman, David McCullough writes: "In any event, Captain Truman stood his ground, and once having recovered his breath, let fly with a blast of profanity that had stunning effect chiefly because it came from the officer who, heretofore, had seemed so proper and reserved. 'I got up and called them everything I knew', was how Harry himself remembered the moment. He was livid and terrified." And after that, "With his blistering verbal barrage and the vivid example of his own fierce courage under fire, Captain Truman succeeded finally in getting things in control." I see no reason to expect that the exact words would have been recorded. --184.144.97.125 (talk) 06:26, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Here is a bit longer passage from Steinberg's book: It was hard to believe that this brawling gang of fighting Irish would go to pieces under fire, but the men panicked and all except five ran for their lives into the forest. “I got up and called them everything I knew,” said Truman. The curses that poured out contained some of the vilest four-letter words heard on the Western Front. Said Father Curtis Tiernan, the regiment’s Catholic chaplain, who was on the scene, “It took the skin off the ears of those boys.” The effect was amazing, Padre Tiernan recalled with pleasure. “It turned those boys right around.” The words "imprecations upon the maternity of the Irish" suggest a qualification like whoresons, which is considerably longer than four letters.  --Lambiam 12:50, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Margaret "Peggy" Bacon

Could a kind soul provide a birth date and/ or a burial location for Peggy Bacon (radio producer), also a radio presenter and television producer, born Birmingham in 1918 or 1919, please? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:42, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I've been trying, but all I can find is the Birmingham Post obituary already cited in the article. There's a lot of interference from the other Peggy Bacon, who seems to be much better documented. --Jayron32 15:51, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Garment

What is the garment habitually worn by Maurice Yeatman, the local verger in the BBC comedy Dad's Army? Is that a surplice? I was struck by the top half similarity to Fred Dibnah in Fred Dibnah's Made in Britain. But the bottom half is different, of course. 86.188.121.44 (talk) 19:42, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Our articles say a verger wears a cassock. Fred Dibnah, on the other hand, tended to wear a grimy blue suit which fit him like overalls (when he was being formal). Not sure what you've seen him wearing that's like a cassock.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:34, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Maybe it's the flat cap and glasses that does it. 86.188.121.44 (talk) 21:48, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

February 24

Desperately helping Ukrainian civilians and a massive artifact collection

I was watching an Inside Edition video and a Reuters video on YouTube. They were about a woman with a massive ladybug-themed collection [2], [3]. But with the conflict arising in Ukraine, I feel I must help her, her children, their cat, her friend and the ladybug-themed collection evacuate that country and immigrate to the United States of America. It's only a matter finding the right boxes, documents and time. What do I have to do? Who should I turn to? Anyone know?2603:7000:8100:F444:D500:5C:3873:78B1 (talk) 12:58, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

What is your evidence that she wishes to emigrate to the United States? --Jayron32 13:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, since the conflict erupted in Ukraine, I'm nervous about the town of Dnipro getting invaded. It's where the woman, her children, their cat, her friend and the ladybug-themed collection are.2603:7000:8100:F444:D500:5C:3873:78B1 (talk) 18:18, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but you can't very well kidnap her and take her to the U.S. against her will. She has to want to emigrate to the U.S. There are ways to do so, but she is a person with her own volition. Just because you want to get her out doesn't mean that she wants to leave. --Jayron32 18:21, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't going to kidnap her and the rest. No, heavens no! I only want to help her if she's asking for assistance, that's all.2603:7000:8100:F444:D500:5C:3873:78B1 (talk) 00:26, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

If someone genuinely wants to immigrate to the US specifically, start with this government page. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:30, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Newspaper Archives

I am not sure if this is the right place but I have a question. Does anyone know where I could find an archive of the American newspaper, Daily Fayetteville Democrat, specifically the issue from Nov. 27, 1915. It is probably unlikely as it is an obscure small town newspaper but any help is appreciated. Gandalf the Groovy (talk) 14:02, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gandalf the Groovy: It's on Newspapers.com, to which I have access via the Wikipedia Library Card. Do you know which story, or at least page, you need? DuncanHill (talk) 14:26, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

If Duncan can't help you, Wikipedia has a service called Resource Exchange that may be useful. --Jayron32 15:37, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

@DuncanHill How do I login into Newspaper.com with my Wikipedia Library Card? I am logged in and have access but I am not sure how to sign in.Please ignore the last message, I have figured it out.

Slabs and cartons of beer

There's a programme on television called Outback Car Hunters, in which two blokes wander around Western Australia buying and doing up cars. When buying the cars they often end up including a slab or a carton of beer to sweeten the deal. How much beer is a slab or a carton? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 18:41, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

This claims a slab is 30 cans, and a carton is 24. I've not heard the term "slab" in the U.S., but carton in the U.S. does usually mean 24. Beer is usually sold in six-packs, four of which are packed into a 24-can carton. Other variations exist, but unqualified a carton is usually 24 cans. --Jayron32 18:50, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

If you're looking for raw volume, in the U.S. a standard sized can is 12 U.S. ounces (355 mL). In Australia, the standard size seems to be 375 mL, according to Beer in Australia. That also claims that a slab was a carton of 24 "stubbies", which is a type of bottle, or of cans. 24*375 mL is 9 liters, also mentioned in the article. --Jayron32 18:58, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Like this. Alansplodge (talk) 11:46, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Scottish drinking songs

[4] I know there are a lot of Irish drinking songs that say unkind things about the English. Do they have those in Scotland too, and are they going to be banned? For that matter, does England have them in the other direction? Thanks. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:C115 (talk) 20:21, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Is there some reason to think the UK is on the verge of banning free speech? DOR (HK) (talk) 01:28, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

In the UK, according to the Human Rights Act 1998, freedom of expression may be restricted...

“...in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary”.

--[emphasis added]: 2603:6081:1C00:1187:1C8F:910:778:CC3A (talk) 03:25, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

DOR, see the link at the beginning of my question. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:C115 (talk) 06:35, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Flower of Scotland references the Battle of Bannockburn, in which an English army was defeated in central Scotland in 1314, but it does say in the second verse that "those days have gone now". Otherwise, I can't think of any anti-English songs offhand. In England, traditional drinking songs like John Barleycorn are not much used outside of folk-music clubs, but the extremely rude Rugby songs are very much alive and kicking. The only one I can think of which insults another nationality is this version of the French national anthem. In the 1970s when the IRA were leaving bombs all over England, there was a vogue for "Irishman jokes" although I haven't heard one told for several years. Alansplodge (talk) 10:58, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Another English rugby-connected song that insults (or at least trivialises) another nationality is the parody of the chorus of the Welsh anthem Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau — "Whales! Whales! Bloody great fishes are whales. They swim in the sea; you have them for tea. Bloody great fishes are whales." This presumably dates back to a period (post WW2?) when whale meat was an unliked but cheap item on the British menu. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.121.1 (talk) 14:20, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Correct on your whale-meat chronology [5]. Alansplodge (talk) 09:56, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

That linked website (actually a British-ex-pat running club in Sri Lanka) has a xenophobic song unknown to me:

I don't like French or Germans / I don't care for Belgians much / But worst of all worst of all / I hate the Dutch apparently because they They live in windmills / and mince around in clogs. Alansplodge (talk) 11:15, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Nigel Powers must be a charter Gold Member. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:55, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Not a drinking song, but a highly seditious toast. "God bless the king. I mean the faith's defender. God bless - no harm in blessing - the pretender. But who pretender is, and who is king, God bless us all, that's quite another thing." Itsmejudith (talk) 11:34, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Maps for medium of instruction and most-studied foreign language

I would think these maps already exist, but all I've been able to find is File:English in the countries of the world.png, which is only used on WP-fa and where I can't tell some of the colors apart and where some of the choices are dubious (e.g. Russian as the primary foreign language of Belarus, when it's the primary native language).

If they don't already exist, I'd like to create maps for where English, French etc. is the primary language of instruction + where it's the most popular foreign language studied in schools. Also a map of most-popular foreign language by country. I don't want to duplicate someone else's work, though: surely we have this info somewhere? -- kwami (talk) 22:57, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

There's significant debate between political tendencies as to what the Belarusian language even is (see Taraskievica to start with). Anyway, there are some maps of Europe: File:Knowledge of French EU map.svg etc. -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, Belarusian in Russia is called "Western Russian". But AFAICT that's no longer what most people speak in Belarus. But that's a quibble. Mostly, I keep thinking that someone must've already compiled the languages of education of the world. I've created duplicate maps before because I didn't realize one already existed, and would rather not do it again. — kwami (talk) 07:37, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Nobody calls it "Western Russian" here in Russia. I've been to Belarus five times and never heard a word of Belarusian spoken. This language exists mostly on signboards and official notices. Ghirla^-трёп- 12:42, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

That may be your experience, but Belarusian language notes some inconsistency in the number of speakers, but even the lowest estimates indicate that there are about 2.5 million speakers that use Belarusian at home, which is a minority of the population, but not insignificant. --Jayron32 14:06, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

@Ghirlandajo: I meant that the Belarusian spoken in Russia is called "Western Russian". On Russian WP, it's called the "western group" of the Southern Russian dialect. I've seen it called "Western Russian" by those who don't lump it in with Southern Russian.

Like in the Basque country in Spain, where people speak to strangers in Spanish by default because even between ethnic Basques there's at best a 50% chance that both will speak Basque, I'd assume that in Belarus, where the numbers are even lower, Belarusian-speakers would speak to strangers in Russian by default. — kwami (talk) 08:52, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Don’t see any map like that in some obvious places for it to be, such as Second-language acquisition or Language education or Language education by region or Bilingual education by country or region or English as a second or foreign language. So it would be very cool if you made one!

Did find similar maps on non-wikipedia sites, which might be useful to look at: Second Languages around the World and Most studied foreign languages in lower secondary education in Europe and Which countries study which languages on Duolingo. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:58, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, those aren't much help. As of now, it looks like I'd need to contact 50 embassies or so and ask. But then I'd risk having the map removed from WP as OR. — kwami (talk) 07:52, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

How to find specific people in U.S Census

Hello, Reference desk editors. I am trying to access information relating to this man here, http://www.dkdonovan.com/getperson.php?personID=I32318&tree=Main. I want to locate information regarding his parents. I would like to access information from the mentioned census's but they are quite hard to read due to their age. Is there an easier way to find this information in a more readable format? Here is the 1850 census for reference, http://www.phmc.state.pa.us/portal/communities/agriculture/files/1850/manuscripts/indiana/1850_Indiana_Amrstrong%20Twp.pdf. Thanks in advance, from Gandalf the Groovy (talk) 23:41, 24 February 2022 (UTC).

@Gandalf the Groovy You won't find that information here. This is an agricultural census - a list of property, not people. David Johnson is on pg 3 of the pdf, line 8. I presume that's your David Johnson's father. -- asilvering (talk) 04:30, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

February 25

Suggest me 10 WP discussions

Greetings,

Suggest me 10 WP (talk page) discussions (preferably from last 1 or 2 years) where you found probably women representation is/ was missing or inadequate.

I know from most user Ids one can not easily make about gender, including mine still many discussions I keep getting this feeling in many articles and their talk page discussions even while topic being discussed does not have adequate women centric view or representation. If I am not the only user to feel so then I will get some examples here.

I am aware some women related projects are there and I can ask there but before going there I wish to have some examples if some can suggest from this discussion board. (Of course some of the examples I might quote @ women related discussion boards)

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 07:35, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

It's an interesting question, but you've posted it in the wrong place. This page is for answering general knowledge questions, you should have gone to the help desk or village pump. --Viennese Waltz 10:17, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

This should filter the most edited non mainspace pages in the last two years. You may need some additional fine tuning and manually picking out actual talk pages. Finding a disussion where women were underrepresented is naturally easier than proving that it was so. 37.176.77.250 (talk) 20:58, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

This is a good idea, thanks.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 02:59, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Fœdera

Greetings, keepers of the eternal flame!

Abstract: I'm hoping to find an online scan of Vol. I (and hopefully others) of the 1st edition (pub. 1704) of Thomas Rymer's Fœdera (or Foedera without the œ), very specifically that from the Library of the State University of Ohio. There are many other copies of this work available online, but I am looking for this particular instance (it may not exist). At least Vol XX is online, [6], scanned in February 2016, but I can't locate any other volumes from this particular library. It may be a one-off, although this seems vaguely unlikely. Any ideas, please?

Long version, apologies: if TLDR, skip to final para. For some time I have been gathering notes for a new WP article on Rymer's Fœdera. A brief summary can be found in EB1911.[7]. The best guide to the whole enteprise is Sir T. D. Hardy’s Syllabus (1869–85, 3 vols., Vol. 1 Vol. 2 Vol. 3). My search has involved—inter alia—locating online (preferably downloadable) copies of all four editions: I have urls for almost all of them (various sources including Archive.org, G**gle books, Gallica, Austrian National Library, and the abysmal HathiTrust) except 2nd ed, Vol 3. Anyway, I recently came across a brief yet informative article written in 2000 by James K. Bracken.[8] (NB not James Bracken or J. K. Bracken, the father of Brendan Bracken).

• Bracken, James K. (2000). "Evidence of George Holmes's Corrections to the First Edition of the Foedera (1704-17)" (PDF). Analytical & Enumerative Bibliography. 1. DeKalb, Ill.: The Bibliographical Society of Northern Illinois: 114–123. ISSN 0161-0376.

Bracken's article discusses the personal copy of the 1st edition of George Holmes (editor of the 2nd edition), which somehow ended up in the Library of the State University of Ohio, where Bracken worked at the time. Randomly, a couple of days ago I chanced upon Vol XX (as mentioned above) at G**gle books, through this Worldcat entry [9]. This particular volume (1735) is one of three (XVIII, XIX & XX) by Robert Sanderson (Rymer's assistant for the 1st edition) published 1726–1735 by Jacob Tonson, publisher of the 2nd edition; they are not technically part of either the 1st or 2nd editions, although they are often included and bound up with complete sets of either: they are also included in the 3rd (Hague) edition.

This copy of Vol. XX has the stamp of State Uni. of Iowa Library on the title page, but despite an intensive search I have been unable to locate any other volumes from this library. For example, the Bibliographic information section of GB states "Volume 20 of Fœdera, conventiones, literæ" etc., but searching for "Volume 1 of Fœdera, conventiones, literæ" draws a blank. Other useful specific search terms might include "Tomus I"|"T O M U S I" "Per J. Churchill" "MMCCIV" and so on.

Jacob Tonson also published in 1730 a list of Holmes's 7,000 corrections to the 1st ed. that were printed in the 2nd edition, as The Emendations in the New Edition of Mr. Rymer's Foedera Published for the Use of those Gentlemen who are possess 'd of the Former Edition but, as Bracken says, these don't necessarily match up with Holmes's own corrections in his personal copy of the 1st edition. I have been unable to find an online copy of these Emendations either, although there is a copy in the Library of Ohio State Uni. which Bracken mentions.

I would be most grateful if anyone could assist me in locating Vol. I from the Library of the State University of Ohio, or any others up to at least Vol XII where Holmes' editorship of the 2nd edition stopped (Bracken doesn't appear to say if Holmes's marginalia continue throughout the whole set of his own copy); plus any online copy of the 2nd ed, Vol III; and as an added bonus, any copy of the Emendations. I could always try a trans-Atlantic email or two, but I thought I'd start here. Sorry for the lengthy post. Cheers, MinorProphet (talk) 18:26, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

This the correct edition for Vol. 1 at HathiTrust? Oops, probably not, sorry didn't fully read your post before answering. fiveby(zero) 20:23, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Apologies if i am still misreading your request, but if it has a University of Iowa stamp you'd like to see it? v. 4v. 16, v. 19, v. 20 but most want volume 1? Are you able to access Gale Eighteenth Century Collections Online where the UI Library database search keeps sending me? fiveby(zero) 21:33, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

A physical copy with call number "JX636 1704" doesn't show up in the Ohio catalogue search, tho "JX636 1816" another edition from their special collections does. You might try passing along this record to WP:RX and maybe someone can check for the note on the flyleaf. fiveby(zero) 22:28, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Wrong catalogue again, JX636 1704 with "Ad originales chartas in Turri Londinensi denuo summa fide collata & emendata, studio Georgil Holmes" on the title page for v1-12? fiveby(zero) 22:42, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, my reading comprehension is worse than usual today, what makes you think [10] with the Iowa stamp is a scan of "JX636 1704"? it has a sticker for Hugh Lowther, 5th Earl of Lonsdale. Are we looking for digitizations of what Ohio State holds, or of from that printing? fiveby(zero) 23:11, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Here are v.13, v. 15v. 16v. 19 from Ohio State with the "JX636 1704" call number in pencil following the title page. fiveby(zero) 15:12, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Here is second edition, v. 3 which i think is finally something you requested! fiveby(zero) 18:06, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Here's Emendations. fiveby(zero) 18:38, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

February 26

Swami Vivekananda

The 19th century swami who influenced Rockefeller, Tesla and J.D. Salinger- https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/archived/spiritofthings/4946512

What Did J.D. Salinger, Leo Tolstoy, and Sarah Bernhardt Have in Common? -https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303404704577305581227233656

I have seen that most Europeans never heard of him, but above two articles are written as if he is very popular even among popular people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.105.101.24 (talk) 08:42, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

What is your question? Do you have a question about Swami Vivekananda? Have you read the article about him? Popularity is subjective and varies from one country or culture to another, so it is rather meaningless to Wikipedia. See WP:POPULARITY.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:30, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Did Nicola Tesla and Leo Tolstoy really got influenced by Swami Vivekananda?–Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.105.101.24 (talk) 14:27, 26 February 2022

Quite possibly. They were educated men and the writings of Vivekananda are very well known (and popular) in the West. He also toured Europe and America more than once. I see no reason to doubt those sources. By the way, I moved your response to the correct place in the conversation. Please add comments in order.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

The John D. Rockefeller story supposedly came from Emma Calvé and is found in Burke, M. L. (1958). Swami Vivekananda in America New Discoveries. Calcutta: Advaita Ashrama. pp. 112–4.

While it looks fairly well documented that Tesla met Vivekananda, the "evidence" everyone seems to be providing for an influence and all i can find for Ann Louise Bardach's ...Tesla would cite the monk's contributions in his pioneering research of electricity. is Tesla, Nikola (July 6, 1930). "Man's Greatest Achievement". New York American. fiveby(zero) 07:58, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Sarah Bernhardt and Nicolas Tesla are mentioned on page 380 of the second volume of The Life of the Swami Vivekananda, published in 1914. According to this source, Tesla admitted the superiority of the cosmological theory espoused by the Swami. Reportedly, the three met on February 13, 1896, at a dinner party after one of Bernhardt's performances. The latter source reveals that Tesla took a vow of chastity influenced in part by the Swami's preaching, and that he specifically referred to the idea of the eternal nature of existence and related concepts in his later writings. We need to dig up these references to see how deep the influence was, but that there was some influence is evident.  --Lambiam 08:51, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

This and this from the Nikola Tesla article. The Routledge source is certainly the best i've seen and does provide a Tesla to Vivekananda letter suggesting a meeting, but overall quite a bit different in tone and conclusions from others.

Unfortunately, there is no record of this meeting and Vivekananda scholars opine that the meeting never took place. Vivekananda's disappointment at the failure of this marriage between Vedantic cosmology and modern science is clear in his later in his later lecture in Lahore...."

I would expect a mention of any later reference in Tesla's writing from this source. Somehow i got a full preview, but can't seem to link to other than snippet view.fiveby(zero) 20:05, 27 February 2022 (UTC):::

This gave me a page view.  --Lambiam 09:16, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Corippe, La Johannide

Hi Folks!! Is this cite here from a draft i'm working at Draft:Battle of Cillium (544)

• Corippe (1900). La Johannide (in French). Tunis: Tunisian Review.

the same as this: https://archive.org/details/CorippusTheIohannis1/page/n1/mode/2up

I'm trying to find an english version of Corippe, La Johannide. scope_creep^Talk 15:15, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

The book at archive.org contains an English translation (by George W. Shea) of all eight books making up the Iohannis, starting at page 63. It is the second item in the section Corippus § Editions. I have not looked at the other book, but it is apparently a French translation.  --Lambiam 20:18, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

February 27

Who's quote this one may be?

"..Eyewitness history, flawed as it may be, is frequently more useful and accurate than attempts to reconstruct history through secondary sources once all those who witnessed the events are long dead..." *

I came across above in google book preview 2nd page of chapter 1. In the book above sentence is star marked means likely to be listed in notes or refs at the end of the book. But I did not preview access for end part of following book.

Who's quote this one may be? author's own or some one else?

• Book name: "Subverted: How I Helped the Sexual Revolution Hijack the Women's Movement. United States, Ignatius Press, 2015." By 'Sue Ellen Browder'

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:26, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

This isn't a quote of another author in the book, it's Browder's own commentary. --Soman (talk) 15:47, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

The asterisk is to a footnote on the same page, stating that when she herself was not an eyewitness, she used (as much as possible) the eyewitness accounts of others.  --Lambiam 18:40, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

on side note, a journalist by career would depend on eyewitness accounts; what Browder says still leaves some flaws but still a good take.

Thanks to both of you.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 05:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

1791 Marine List

I'm working on the Samuel Loudon article. On Thomas Allen's Marine List of 1791 half way down it mentions "Samuel Loudon, New-York" as going or coming from somewhere on a ship. Can someone tell me what it says? Where is Loudon going or has come from AND the name of the ship. It looks like something interesting that I might want to add to the article. Thanks for the interpretation. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 16:11, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

As far as I can figure out, the ship (as in 3+ fully rigged masts) North-Carolina owned by (?) Samuel Loudon was leaving "there" for New York on October 1st. I assume that "there" is Hartford, Connecticut, but I'm not certain about that. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:55, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Just to be awkward, I read it as second-hand news about ships leaving from Oporto more than a month previously. I think you kind of have to read the paragraph backwards:

• On the 14th of August, the brig belonging to Richard Yates arrived at Oporto, and various other ships left there.
• These included Parmela and Samuel Loudon's North-Carolina.
• 45 days later, the brig Parmela arrived in Hartford and conveyed this news to Thomas Allen.
• The date was then the 1st of October. (This doesn't quite work, mind you, because that should be 47 days.)

 Card Zero  (talk) 21:33, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Just from the text, that would also make sense. But Oporto is in Portugal, and I think this "marine list" is mostly from local data. It's not impossible that it collects data from all incoming ships, but I doubt that they would be that good at keeping logs on other ships... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:26, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

A sailing time of 45 days is consistent with – even a bit longish for – a translatlantic trip.  --Lambiam 08:33, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

From the text we can infer that "Brig        , Bloom, belonging to Richard Yates" arrived in Oporto on the 14th of August, and that "Brig Parmela, F. Buckley" sailed from there on the 17th or 18th of August. For the other vessels reported as having left Oporto, from Schooner Sally to ship North-Carolina, we cannot infer more than that the moment of departure was earlier than that of the anonymous brig.  --Lambiam 08:58, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Loudon's biographies reveal that next to having a print shop, he operated a bookstore and a library. Did he also manage a transatlantic shipping operation? One would expect to find some other references to such a formidable side job than this one brief entry in a marine list. Could this be a namesake of the printer?  --Lambiam 08:33, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I think the typical format used in the entries in this marine list is <name of vessel>, <name of captain>, <port of registration>. So then this Samuel Loudon would have been the captain of a ship named North-Carolina.  --Lambiam 08:45, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

February 28

"Excuse me, Mr pilot of a spy plane... This is (civilian) Air traffic control!"

I'm wondering, what is the de facto accepted rules around international law/practice, and flying spy planes... vis-à-vis this "little problem" of Air traffic control rules.

I'm talking more about civilian air traffic control rules, not military airspace defense. Nobody's being invaded. I'm referring to spying which does not infringe the "target country's" sovereignty... i.e. flights which skirt the target country's airspace, but do not enter it. I'm also limiting my question to situations where the spying plane's country and the target country are at least technically at peace, but are rivals.

Like, if you're flying a spy plane, do you still keep the air traffic controller of the airspace you're flying through aware of your plans, so he can make sure you don't hit another plane?

If yes, aren't you alerting the "target" of your spying of your intentions, thus allowing them to take countermeasures against your aerial espionage?

If not, isn't there a real risk that your spy plane will collide with some "innocent" plane? Air traffic control rules exist for good reason, and breaching them would appear to put other airplanes' safety at risk.

I've read of acts by Russia which involve skirting (but not entering) U.K. airspace, to test the U.K's response (which usually involves summoning Quick Reaction Alert). Is Russia breaching international law by violating air-traffic control conventions? (The airspace in question is not over the U.K. itself, but within the U.K.'s "area of responsibility" for air traffic control).

I'm also aware of the Hainan Island incident, where this exact problem occurred - a collision between a spy plane and another airplane. Had the U.S. spy plane kept air traffic control "in the loop" about their presence and flight plans?

So, what's the de facto jus cogens practice regarding spy planes and international civilian air traffic regulations/conventions/treaties? Any insights? Eliyohub (talk) 09:29, 28 February 2022 (UTC)