Template talk:Flag athlete: Difference between revisions

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Country link parameter missing

There's a problem. The third parameter is used for getting the correct flag, but not for getting the correct country link.

For example, on Bowls, I changed

{{flagathlete|Jim Baker, Sammy Allen, John McCloughlin, Rodney McCutcheon|IRE}}

Jim Baker, Sammy Allen, John McCloughlin, Rodney McCutcheon (IRE)

to

{{flagathlete|Jim Baker, Sammy Allen, John McCloughlin, Rodney McCutcheon|IRE|1783}}

Jim Baker, Sammy Allen, John McCloughlin, Rodney McCutcheon (IRE)

Which correctly changes the flag from the the Irish tricolour to the Saint Patrick's Cross, but does not change the country from Republic of Ireland to Ireland. The code needs to add something like

{{flagicon|{{{2}}}|{{{3|}}}}} {{{1}}} <span style="font-size:90%;">([[{{getalias|{{{2}}}}}|{{{2}}}]])</span>

{{flagicon|{{{2}}}|{{{3|}}}}} {{{1}}} <span style="font-size:90%;">([[{{getalias|{{{2}}}}}|{{{2}}}|{{{3|}}]])</span>

but I'm not competent to do this properly. jnestorius^(talk) 22:58, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's due to a hack added to Template:Country data Ireland some time ago, making the alias value variable using a parser function. The rationale for that change was to support {{flag|Ireland}} instead of forcing editors to use {{flagcountry|Republic of Ireland}}. I have tried to fixed this, but I'm not sure it can be done. Your suggestion won't work, alas. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 01:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Works now! — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 01:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility fix

{{editprotected}} Recently installed changes to Mediawiki mean that one must mark purely-decorative images with |link=|alt= instead of merely with |link= as it used to be. The new behavior is described in WP:ALT #Purely decorative images. Could you please install the obvious sandbox patch to {{Country flagbio}}, which is an auxiliary to this template? Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 23:49, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I thought I had caught all those.... — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 01:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Web slice

Why does this template fail to display in a Web slice (Internet Explorer feature)? It was working previously. From IE8 or IE9, go to Template:Current_Men's_Singles_ATP_Rankings, then press Alt-J and click the Green icon then click Add. Notice in the dropdown favorite that is added, the flags don't display. They used to earlier. - xpclient ^Talk 13:49, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete template?

Could I ask why this template is useful for the project? I'd like to know that flags are not used merely as decorations, and have solid value as clear indicators of a nation. Anyone hazzard a guess as to the difference between the Australian and New Zealand flags? Tony (talk) 09:07, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1, I couldn't agree more. Templates such as these are just an invitation to paint these childish flags all over Wikipedia like stickers. I can't read Tour de France articles on Wikipedia anymore because the ubiquitous MOS:FLAG violations hurt my eyes and my soul. Drmies (talk) 16:53, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- MOSFLAG condones usage of this template in reference to national sports teams. The purpose of this is two-fold. Firstly, flags and national colours are directly involved with such sports events: from uniforms, to visual presentation of events, to medal tables and ceremonies. (Military events are experienced in a similar fashion.) Secondly, flags are not simply a duplication of textual information – they are an enhancement of it. The brain interprets images in a very different way from plain text. As an example, go to this plain text page and see how long it takes you to locate the Canadian medallist. Next, try the same with this page using the template, or try to locate the Japanese medallists on either page. As you'll quickly find, the brain is able to distinguish by image much more easily than it can plain text. Admittedly, these tests depend upon your knowledge of the Canadian and Japanese flags, but a great deal of users will be looking for their own country's athletes within those lists. A great deal more will know many of the other flags present. The country code will usually be enough to clarify the country for the user, and if not the tooltips will give the full formal country name.
- As for the Australian and New Zealand flag example. I'm sure a reader would better distinguish Republic of Congo from Democratic Republic of the Congo if they are presented as - (CGO) and - (DRC). Countries can resemble each other textually just as they can visually. I'm not saying we should only use the images (that is not usually intuitive either), but when used in combination with text they can give a fuller experience. Consider how this image allows for easier comprehension of how a context search works, as opposed to a bullet point list of the text on that process flow. Read this article for more info on how the brain's visual information processing works. SFB 14:07, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This template overlinks

This template seriously and indiscriminately overlinks. See how:{{flagathlete|[[Michael Phelps]]|USA}} renders as Michael Phelps (USA). The link to the country is wide of the mark and thus totally unnecessary. It lacks focus and fails the specificity test because clicking on "USA" takes you to the generic United States article and not 'United States National Swimming Team' or something that might approximate as being useful. The result on a macroscopic levels can be illustrated by FIS Alpine Ski World Cup#Top results, where there is a sea of blue. The oft-repeated country links that nobody will click on and nobody can remove are a total waste of space. Can this automatic default linking should be undone in the first instance? I would if only I knew how, but it seems to be part of a series of nested templates and I cannot track the relevant one. I request for somebody to do the honours and unlink the country. Thanks. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 01:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And it bunches links together, also deprecated by our style guide. Really, I'm finding the use of rafts of pretty colours distracting, not as a whole visually attractive (and prettiness I suspect is the original intention), and worst, not informative of which country is which. Tony (talk) 01:57, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the link to a tooltip, per this edit. Is that better? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 04:16, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew, thanks, better. Incidentally, are the caps built in or manually added to the examples? (NOR, for instance). I guess space is too limited for spelling out the country-names (Norway), is it? Unlinking, of course, doesn't solve the larger problem of flags without country-names (and what I think is the better approach of removing the flag altogether). Take a look here—is that red-background blue-cross flag, um, Denmark? Norway? Sweden? Iceland? Tony (talk) 05:33, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The use of the three-letter country code is intentional—as are the use of flag icons. This style mimics what is often used by outside sources for international competition results (e.g. http://www.sochi2014.com/en/cross-country-men-s-50-km-free-mass-start). As for the 2013 Alpine Skiing World Cup article, my preference would be to use this template instead of plain {{flagicon}} so that you get the country code (with tooltip for the full country name) instead of just the flag. But at least with the flag by itself you also have a tooltip for the country name when you mouse over the image (or when read by a screen reader), so that helps readers who don't instantly recognize the Norwegian flag, even at 23 pixels. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 15:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrwsc: thanks, that's a whole lot better. I think Tony has a point about the abundant use of flags implicitly endorsed by these templates, because they can be ambiguous and meaningless at 23 pixels wide. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 09:19, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1 suggested I drop by here. Pity I can't see what "that" page looked like before the template tweak, but still, for me it's WAY too much information, and the colors detract from the names. I mean, REALLY detract from the names. This link of Tony's is exemplary of this awful, awful flagging. It's not even appropriate according to MOS:FLAG, in this case, because the skiing World Cup doesn't work with national representation, and of course you can't have a flag without a country. If I had my way, what would be in an individual cell would be something like this, "Christof Innerhofer (ITA)", or something like that. But I don't think we're ever going to convince the flagicon fetishists in any of these sports--funny how the boxing and mixed martial arts projects are better in line with policy than all the others. Drmies (talk) 16:30, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

By no coincidence, nationality has much cultural less relevance to those sports. SFB 20:52, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any way of removing the tooltip for instances when the whole country name is included in the brackets, for example at 2010 FIFA World Cup statistics? - 97rob (talk) 10:15, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree

Arjen Robben (Netherlands)
Kalu Uche (Nigeria)
Tiago (Portugal)
Andrés Iniesta (Spain)

Tykyheg (talk) 06:23, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good point. @Andrwsc: is there a way we can throw a "len <= 3" function around the activation of the tooltip? Tooltips will more than likely not be required when a three-letter code isn't being used (the shortest full country names are four letters).

As a side-note, @Tykyheg: there may be a gap for the creation of a similar template that links to the articles at Category:Countries at the FIFA World Cup, e.g.

Arjen Robben (Netherlands)

Code is located at User:Sillyfolkboy/template3. SFB 10:56, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Name and flag order

Is there any reason why we wedge the athlete name in between the flag and its country code/name? Wouldn't it logically make more sense to put the name first and follow it with flag and country text, as below? This would need to be changed in the Template:Country flagbio. SFB 20:37, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Usain Bolt (JAM)

The current style keeps the icons left-aligned in a vertical list, which is much better than having them misaligned. I think a table would work better than a list for what you are trying to do. Compare the following:
List style A

List style B

Table style

Usain Bolt	JAM
Richard Thompson	TRI
Walter Dix	USA

— Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:55, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That makes a lot of sense. Probably better to split the name from the country to achieve this. Thanks SFB 21:37, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Struggling to think what "TRI" means. Tri-athlete? No. I've gone to look it up: Trinadad, I guess. And it perplexes me how readers are supposed to know which country that coloured ornament stands for. So we end up giving them no clear information. Why not get rid of the pretty ornaments and just spell out the country-names? Tony (talk) 03:38, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The end point of your logic should be that we spell out the name in full next to the flag. Removal of the flag has very different effects, which I mention above, that are unrelated to how much of the name you spell out. SFB 06:36, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I was lazy when I wrote those markup examples, using {{flagu|TRI}} so that there is neither a link or toolip. Using this template (in the first example) would give you the tooltip, or using {{flag|TRI}} would give you the latter. And if you weren't space-constrained in the table, you'd probably use {{flag|Trinidad and Tobago}}, or better to use {{flagu|Trinidad and Tobago}} to avoid WP:OVERLINK. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:42, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SFB, the end-point of the logic is to ditch the pretty postage stamps that mislead or beg barely conscious questions in readers' minds, and replace them in the constrained space with a spelled-out country-name. Nothing could be simpler or more cogent, from the point of view of readers. Prettiness (especially the sun-shades messy kind you get with an array of these postage stamps) is way down on our list of priorities in terms of deft, efficient communication of the facts. Tony (talk) 06:12, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Tony1: I would argue that is separate logic, because the country (unlike the name) is a categorical piece of data with a highly associated image aspect.

Your base argument that text alone is more cogent is false. Inclusion of well balanced, relevant visual cues alongside text improves comprehension and retention of the information, rather than being a distraction [1]. For dsylexics, corresponding images can sometimes be easier to understand than words alone, due to their greater reliance upon visualisation (there's plenty more of relevance at Visual learning). The fact that images supplement words and improve comprehension is why feats of both long-term memory and speed reading[2] involve the association of visual images to concepts and meaning. The brain processes images differently from words, and we can take advantage of this. Non-icon based uses (such as this) are in wide use for that very reason. The links I gave in our discussion above, are a simple demonstration of how flags can be a superior method of interpreting arrays of categorical information. I agree that flags can mislead or over emphasise nations in certain circumstances – that's why I'm advocating a proposal to focus their usage to where they benefit the content. Do you have any proof that text-only representation of information is better for comprehension? SFB 17:20, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SFB, thanks for that interesting post (I'll look up the refs when I have time on the weekend). On your last point: could I ask you what the difference is between the New Zealand and Australian flags? Tony (talk) 07:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

At the (high!) risk of sounding pedantic: one is the flag of New Zealand and the other is the flag of Australia. Send me a random link with one and I can tell you which one it is, just as I could with a house sparrow and a tree sparrow, but explaining that in words is an altogether more complex challenge. In both situations, I can clearly only do so because of specialist knowledge. I presume your question relates to being able to distinguish between the two on image alone? That, of course, is problematic and is why I support a guideline that ensures images are always presented with corresponding text. SFB 17:00, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The flag of New Zealand is the one with (NZL) after the athlete's name and the flag of Australia is the one with (AUS) after the athlete's name. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:28, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure it's as difficult as SFB suggests to explain a difference. The New Zealand flag

consists of four (five-point) stars on the right of the flag, whereas the Australian flag

has 5 stars on the right, plus a larger star underneath the Union Jack. The biggest difference when displayed at this size is the extra star on the left of the Australian flag. This website explains the difference well. A bigger problem for identifying flags would come from

Monaco and

Indonesia, or

Ireland and

Côte d'Ivoire. See National flag#Similar flags also. - 97rob (talk) 17:30, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is knowledge that a majority of users hold within their brains. Obviously it is possible to differentiate the New Zealand and Australian, but not to the extent that we can guarantee that 95% of readers will do so (which is the kind of threshold for immediate comprehension that we should be aiming for). SFB 10:29, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that most people won't know (I had to look it up), but I was just trying to make the point that there is a difference, and explaining what it is. There are many examples though, like the ones which I showed above, which have an even more minimal difference. (

and

- 97rob (talk) 12:54, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is all irrelevant. In the context of this template, surely most readers will be able to tell the difference between:

Athlete Name (INA)
Athlete Name (MON)

— Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:34, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Flag key

Hi Guys! At WP:TENNIS We've noticed the change you've made in accordance with the WP:OVERLINK. A new collapsible template to collect all flags in one place was created by one of our members (see section title). It could be added to every article that is affected by the "flag problem". The idea is this: Is it possible to transform the Flagathlete template to have the 3-digit country code link to the flag key template? (or better to the appropritae flag within the template?) That way we could relieve the already flag-heavy articles but keeping one flag key template at the bottom for informational/educational purposes. In my opinion the current problem is that one specific flag reappears numerous times within an article. One flag for one nation shouldn't be a problem but to have it attached next to an athlete's name every time he/she is listed is indeed superfluous. Ideas/comments? Lajbi ^{Holla @ me • CP} 10:28, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how linking to a template in a sub-section of an article is any better than being able to immediately look at the country name in context via the tooltip (which is what we have here). The whole standpoint of this template is that the combination of flag, three letter code, and full country name in tooltip is sufficient on its own. I can see how the key is useful on something like 2013 Wimbledon Championships – Women's Singles (where no country name text exists). From my own topic area, I think this addition would be distracting on something like 2013 World Championships in Athletics, which lists the country names and flags in full in two sections already. Personally, I think usage of the current flagathlete template on articles like the Wimbledon one would a better solution – linking to the flag key section sounds nice in principle, but the reality will probably be readers losing their train of thought as they are shifted to the bottom of the article with no obvious way back. SFB 19:57, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense. The key would only be needed if there is no other info being given. But you mention that the full country name is given in the tool tip of flagathlete... that is also present in the 2013 Wimbledon Championships – Women's Singles, so that's a wash. The only difference is that flagathlete gives a country code that some find almost as hard to decipher as the flags, and take up much more room. The mouseover is adequate for most users so it becomes just a matter of choice and space as to which template works best. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:17, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

More than one flag?

Hi, what should I do if I need to display more than flag for an athlete? He was a footballer for Austria, but got Czechoslovak citizenship and played for Czechoslovakia. What is the correct way to display this correctly? Nazgul02 (talk) 15:05, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Country alias

Primefac, it would be great if this template could use {{Country alias}} since it would fix this problem. I have some transitional code in the sandbox, but I had to add an 'iferror' catch for the cases where {{Country alias}} can't find the name of the country. a cleaner implementation would be to have an a way to check without throwing an error, and then add a tracking category to clean up the cases with unknown countries. Frietjes (talk) 23:11, 27 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Frietjes, it's pretty easy to transition this to use country alias. The module has every country in the world (and then some), so I think gigantic red error messages are more conducive towards solving the "you typed in the wrong country code" issue than letting it sit around in a cat for who knows how long. I'm not saying a "cleaner" way wouldn't look nicer (or isn't doable), I'm just thinking that it's a non-issue. Thoughts? Primefac (talk) 23:37, 27 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Primefac, sure, a big red error message definitely works in the long term. my concern was that one of the examples in the documentation, FR Yugoslavia, would generate an error message right now. I suppose the thing to do would be to add some tracking right now, clean up any problematic uses, then transition to use {{country alias}}? Frietjes (talk) 14:35, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, crap, you're right. I saw the FR Yug thing when I was updating the testcases, but it totally didn't click why that was there. I'll take a look at the code and see the best way to do some tracking. Primefac (talk) 14:39, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Primefac, I have added some tracking to the live template to see how big of a problem this would be. with 13k transclusions it will take some time, but they should all be in Category:Pages using flagathlete with an unsupported country eventually. feel free to use a cleaner tracking method if you come up with one. Frietjes (talk) 15:02, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Straight off the bat, I'm seeing two one-way issues. The first issue is when an IOC code (such as EUN) doesn't have a related country data, meaning the current version doesn't work. The second issue is when the non-module code is used (such as CHL for Chile in International Boxing Federation), meaning a {{country alias}} version won't work.

It will take a while for the cats to update through 14k pages, but depending on how many pages are affected, it might be best to use your hybrid sandbox version (check country alias first and use country data if necessary). But let's wait and see what happens with the cat tracking. Primefac (talk) 15:22, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Primefac, the sandbox version appears to be catching the error but without the script error. Frietjes (talk) 21:49, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I guess this is under control, but if some code is wanted in Module:Country alias let me know. Johnuniq (talk) 23:45, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, nice, didn't see the module sandbox change to reflect the template change. Very nice. Primefac (talk) 02:57, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For any historians reading this later, it was Frietjes who devised the "error=xxx" solution and who edited Module:Country alias/sandbox. Prompted by Primefac's post I had a look and added a style tweak. I infer the module has been working—I was surprised when nothing more seemed to be wanted apart from the many adjustments to the data. Johnuniq (talk) 05:05, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

that looks good to me, so I have imported Johnuniq's revised version in the sandbox into the main module code. Frietjes (talk) 14:49, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

and I have added back the tracking, but without the script errors. I have also (1) restricted the tracking category to main space, and (2) added a red message in edit preview to help with finding the particular cases on the page. all this can be removed once we have a list of all the current cases which would cause script errors if we used {{country alias}} without any error handling. Frietjes (talk) 15:15, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Johnuniq (talk) 01:52, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Primefac and Johnuniq: I believe Category:Pages using flagathlete with an unsupported country is now filled. the question now is what to do. (1) we could use the sandbox code, which prefers Module:Country alias, but falls back on the old code when the lookup fails, (2) we could add more countries to Module:Country alias, or (3) add the fall back logic to Module:Country alias, or (4) do nothing. Frietjes (talk) 14:21, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think my views would be much use here, but if wanted I'm happy to do more to the module. Johnuniq (talk) 10:11, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think option 1 would be best. Option 2 doesn't seem all that logical because (to take a wild guess) I think we have all the countries in this template (at least the IOC ones). The issue is that {{flagathlete}} accepts the full name, whereas {{country alias}} requires the country code. And I don't think adding every possible alternate option (see my CHL example) is a good idea (too many combinations and recombinations). I'm not thrilled with option 3, because we're basically just adding another step in the process, and option 4 clearly doesn't help. So use {{country alias}} unless it throws an error, in which case it can default to the country data. Primefac (talk) 17:17, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

okay, done. Frietjes (talk) 15:27, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Getting somewhat existential

I've kind of been rolling this whole thing around in my head since I first got the ping in the above section, but... do we really need this template? I can understand the need for {{flag}} (e.g. when one wants a flag but doesn't really care about the sport), and this template seems like a corollary to {{flagIOCathlete}}, but if we're talking about an athlete (and we have flagIOCathlete) do we really need a generic version? It seems like a complicated waste. The reason we have the IPC/PASO/CGF variants is to condense the templates (so you don't have to input "Commonwealth Games" every time), but this template doesn't actually do that. Especially if we modify this to use {{country alias}}, it practically is flagIOCathlete. I think I'm starting to ramble, so... thoughts are appreciated. If I'm not missing anything obvious, I might take this to TFD and we can clean up usage afterwards. Primefac (talk) 02:57, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The one thing I can think of is that this template currently allows for the full name of a country, which {{country alias}} does not do. However, In the cases I've seen where it's being used, people are using the country codes anyway! Primefac (talk) 02:59, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Libya

I don't know why but this template with Libya doesn't work well, Mohamed Salem Tlish (LBA) shows the Egyptian flag instead of old Libyan flag. Mohsen1248 (talk) 15:53, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mohsen1248,File:Flag of Libya (1972–1977).svg looks surprisingly similar to File:Flag of Egypt.svg when shrunk down to 22x20px (

vs

), but it is the right flag (if you view the image properties, it'll show the image name). Primefac (talk) 16:01, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks but now the question is why this template gives this flag ? this should be the green flag for after 1977.

Mohamed Salem Tlish (LBA) and Mohamed Salem Tlish

Libya should give the same flag as result. Mohsen1248 (talk) 16:11, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mohsen1248, this template was recently updated to give more accurate flag/year results, but {{flagmedalist}} was not. I'll see about updating it so that everything's all showing the same stuff. Primefac (talk) 16:19, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks but please remember in this case flagmedalist template is correct and the updated one (flagathlete) is wrong. Mohsen1248 (talk) 16:22, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

According to Flag of Libya, the green flag was adopted 11 November 1977. since the variant is the year adopted, it should be the green flag starting in 1977 per Template:Country data Libya ({{flag|Libya|1977}} →

Libya). Frietjes (talk) 16:49, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, since it was adopted in November 1977 only events that used the flag in Nov/Dec of 1977 should show the new flag. I can't split by month, but I've generally tried to use the flag used in the majority of the year (or make exceptions for things like the Olympics). Primefac (talk) 17:04, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, till now we used that variant flag 1977 for all events from 1977 to 2011. that was based on Template:Country data Libya. with this change we have to use the exact year of the competition, this will make a mess. Mohsen1248 (talk) 17:31, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Um... weren't you using the correct year anyway? If no year is given, it defaults to the current flag (regardless of which template you're using). Primefac (talk) 17:34, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not just me but the whole wikipedia (as far as I know) until now. for example if Libya national football team played a match in 2000 everybdoy use this {{fb|LBA|1977}} =

Libya, they do NOT use {{fb|LBA|2000}}. Mohsen1248 (talk) 17:38, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this sort of poor coding was the reason why {{country alias}} was created in the first place; there was no dynamic output for {country data X}. I'll have to have a think about the best way to fix this. The easiest thing, of course, would just be to roll back this particular family of templates to it's previous incarnation. It means we'll have to fix all of the invalid {country data X} calls as mentioned in the various discussions above. Primefac (talk) 17:43, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Another option is to change the year parameter to 1978 (as it probably should be) and do a bot run to update all of the '77s to '78s. Primefac (talk) 18:08, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes or the easier way is use variant 1973 for 1973 to 1976. that works but the problem is this is not only Libya. that will affect so many other countries, for example I was just editing 2006 Asian Taekwondo Championships, if you take a close look, two different flags are used for Iraq per 2004 variant, one in medal summary section for the medalist and another one in the medal table. Mohsen1248 (talk) 18:44, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that one may need changing in the module, since most of the usage appears to be post-June 2004. Primefac (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted the changes this this set of templates; you're right in that the one-flag-year-for-every-year is a bit problematic. This wasn't an issue for "games" usage such as {{FlagIOCathlete}} since it did give the correct year. Primefac (talk) 19:19, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Primefac, so for the US at the 1908 Summer Olympics (April to October 1908) the flag changed in the middle of the games. so you use the flag at the open or close of the games? Frietjes (talk) 19:38, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

45; seeing as the US went into the Olympics with 45 stars, I highly doubt they'd change their flag halfway through the games. Even if they did change to 46 stars halfway through the Games, there is zero way (with either set of templates) to distinguish that. It's kind of a silly example, if you ask me. Primefac (talk) 19:45, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

in that case, I will report a related bug at Template talk:FlagIOCathlete. Frietjes (talk) 20:32, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

template allows associating today's German Federal Republic with the Nazi flag

i hope i don't need to elaborate on the differences between, what the wiki page authors call, "Germany" in 1933-45 and the German Federal Republic of today. the template allows for oversimplifications of nation states in historical contexts. on the page Emil_Kijewski, the cyclist is representing "Germany" with a Nazi flag... i changed the content on the example pages myself using {{flag|Nazi Germany|1933}} or similar. it would be great if the flagathlete template would provide an option for this. it's just painful to see the wiki page of the German Federal Republic appear in the ajax preview when hovering over the nazi flag... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Schtom (talk • contribs) 10:33, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

examples: UCI_Road_World_Championships, UCI Road World Championships - Men's Road Race, Emil_Kijewski

You cannot use the flag of 1933-35 to cover events that took place in 1937: that is simply false. The simple fact is that the current German state is in historical succession to that regime, and has (in its common English form) the same name. Changing that is in the gift of the German government, not Wikipedia. Kevin McE (talk) 11:25, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

thanks. sorry for the rushed edits. i agree with you on the flag issue. i do get your point with regard to the common name. but then, just out of interest, why don't you call "west germany" "germany", too? where on wikipedia do you define a country's english common name and whose definition do you use? Schtom (talk) 12:34, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:COMMONNAME. Although the formal name of the country that was known as West Germany was the same as that before and after partition, common English language use at that time was West Germany, not FRG. Kevin McE (talk) 20:40, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 43: / Line 43: @@
 == This template overlinks ==
 This template seriously and indiscriminately [[WP:OVERLINK|overlink]]s. See how:<tt><nowiki>{{flagathlete|[[Michael Phelps]]|USA}}</nowiki></tt> renders as [[File:Flag of US.svg|23px]] [[Michael Phelps]] ([[USA]]). The link to the country is wide of the mark and thus totally unnecessary. It lacks focus and fails the specificity test because clicking on "USA" takes you to the generic [[United States]] article and not 'United States National Swimming Team' or something that might approximate as being useful. The result on a macroscopic levels can be illustrated by [[FIS Alpine Ski World Cup#Top results]], where there is a sea of blue. The oft-repeated country links that nobody will click on and nobody can remove are a total waste of space. Can this automatic default linking should be undone in the first instance? I would if only I knew how, but it seems to be part of a series of nested templates and I cannot track the relevant one. I request for somebody to do the honours and unlink the country. Thanks. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">[[User:Ohconfucius|'''<span style="color:#000000; background-color:#00FF00">&nbsp;Ohc&nbsp;</span>''']]</span></small>[[User talk:Ohconfucius|<sup>''¡digame!''</sup>]] 01:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
-:And it bunches links together, also deprecated by our style guide. Really, I'm finding the use of rafts of pretty colours distracting, not as a whole visually attractive (and prettiness I suspect is the original intention), and worst, not informative of which country is which. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk) </font >]] 01:57, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
+:And it bunches links together, also deprecated by our style guide. Really, I'm finding the use of rafts of pretty colours distracting, not as a whole visually attractive (and prettiness I suspect is the original intention), and worst, not informative of which country is which. [[User:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">'''Tony'''</span>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) </span>]] 01:57, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 ::I have changed the link to a tooltip, per [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Template:Country_flagbio&diff=prev&oldid=600405907 this edit]. Is that better?  — [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Andrwsc|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Andrwsc|contribs]]) 04:16, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
-:::Andrew, thanks, better. Incidentally, are the caps built in or manually added to the examples? (NOR, for instance). I guess space is too limited for spelling out the country-names (Norway), is it? Unlinking, of course, doesn't solve the larger problem of flags without country-names (and what I think is the better approach of removing the flag altogether). Take a look [[2013_Alpine_Skiing_World_Cup#Men|here]]—is that red-background blue-cross flag, um, Denmark? Norway? Sweden? Iceland? [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk) </font >]] 05:33, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
+:::Andrew, thanks, better. Incidentally, are the caps built in or manually added to the examples? (NOR, for instance). I guess space is too limited for spelling out the country-names (Norway), is it? Unlinking, of course, doesn't solve the larger problem of flags without country-names (and what I think is the better approach of removing the flag altogether). Take a look [[2013_Alpine_Skiing_World_Cup#Men|here]]—is that red-background blue-cross flag, um, Denmark? Norway? Sweden? Iceland? [[User:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">'''Tony'''</span>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) </span>]] 05:33, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 ::::The use of the three-letter country code is intentional—as are the use of flag icons.  This style mimics what is often used by outside sources for international competition results (e.g. http://www.sochi2014.com/en/cross-country-men-s-50-km-free-mass-start).  As for the [[2013 Alpine Skiing World Cup]] article, my preference would be to use this template instead of plain {{tl|flagicon}} so that you get the country code (with tooltip for the full country name) instead of just the flag.  But at least with the flag by itself you also have a tooltip for the country name when you mouse over the image (or when read by a screen reader), so that helps readers who don't instantly recognize the Norwegian flag, even at 23 pixels.  — [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Andrwsc|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Andrwsc|contribs]]) 15:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 :::{{ping|Andrwsc}} thanks, that's a whole lot better. I think Tony has a point about the abundant use of flags implicitly endorsed by these templates, because they can be ambiguous and meaningless at 23 pixels wide. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">[[User:Ohconfucius|'''<span style="color:#000000; background-color:#00FF00">&nbsp;Ohc&nbsp;</span>''']]</span></small>[[User talk:Ohconfucius|<sup>''¡digame!''</sup>]] 09:19, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
@@ Line 92: / Line 92: @@
 — [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Andrwsc|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Andrwsc|contribs]]) 20:55, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
 ::That makes a lot of sense. Probably better to split the name from the country to achieve this. Thanks [[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|SFB]] 21:37, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
-:::Struggling to think what "TRI" means. Tri-athlete? No. I've gone to look it up: Trinadad, I guess. And it perplexes me how readers are supposed to know which country that coloured ornament stands for. So we end up giving them no clear information. Why not get rid of the pretty ornaments and just spell out the country-names? [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk) </font >]] 03:38, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
+:::Struggling to think what "TRI" means. Tri-athlete? No. I've gone to look it up: Trinadad, I guess. And it perplexes me how readers are supposed to know which country that coloured ornament stands for. So we end up giving them no clear information. Why not get rid of the pretty ornaments and just spell out the country-names? [[User:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">'''Tony'''</span>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) </span>]] 03:38, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 ::::The end point of your logic should be that we spell out the name in full next to the flag. Removal of the flag has very different effects, which I mention above, that are unrelated to how much of the name you spell out. [[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|SFB]] 06:36, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 :::::I was lazy when I wrote those markup examples, using {{tlx|flagu|TRI}} so that there is neither a link or toolip.  Using this template (in the first example) would give you the tooltip, or using {{tlx|flag|TRI}} would give you the latter.  And if you weren't space-constrained in the table, you'd probably use {{tlx|flag|Trinidad and Tobago}}, or better to use {{tlx|flagu|Trinidad and Tobago}} to avoid [[WP:OVERLINK]]. — [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Andrwsc|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Andrwsc|contribs]]) 16:42, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
-::::::SFB, the end-point of the logic is to ditch the pretty postage stamps that mislead or beg barely conscious questions in readers' minds, and ''replace'' them in the constrained space with a spelled-out country-name. Nothing could be simpler or more cogent, from the point of view of readers. Prettiness (especially the sun-shades messy kind you get with an array of these postage stamps) is way down on our list of priorities in terms of deft, efficient communication of the facts. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk) </font >]] 06:12, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
+::::::SFB, the end-point of the logic is to ditch the pretty postage stamps that mislead or beg barely conscious questions in readers' minds, and ''replace'' them in the constrained space with a spelled-out country-name. Nothing could be simpler or more cogent, from the point of view of readers. Prettiness (especially the sun-shades messy kind you get with an array of these postage stamps) is way down on our list of priorities in terms of deft, efficient communication of the facts. [[User:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">'''Tony'''</span>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) </span>]] 06:12, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 :::::::{{ping|Tony1}} I would argue that is separate logic, because the country (unlike the name) is a categorical piece of data with a highly associated image aspect.
 :::::::Your base argument that text alone is more cogent is false. Inclusion of well balanced, relevant visual cues alongside text improves comprehension and retention of the information, rather than being a distraction [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15950838]. For dsylexics, corresponding images can sometimes be ''easier'' to understand than words alone, due to their greater reliance upon visualisation (there's plenty more of relevance at [[Visual learning]]). The fact that images supplement words and improve comprehension is why feats of both long-term memory and speed reading[http://www.oepf.org/sites/default/files/journals/jbo-volume-14-issue-2/14-2%20Godnig.pdf] involve the association of visual images to concepts and meaning. The brain processes images differently from words, and we can take advantage of this. Non-icon based uses (such as [[Usain_Bolt#International_competition_record|this]]) are in wide use for that very reason. The [[User talk:Sillyfolkboy/Resources/Ath Sandbox 3|links]] [[User:Sillyfolkboy/Resources/Ath Sandbox 3|I gave]] in our discussion above, are a simple demonstration of how flags can be a superior method of interpreting arrays of categorical information. I agree that flags can mislead or over emphasise nations in certain circumstances – that's why I'm advocating a [[User:Sillyfolkboy/Resources/MOS:SportsFlag|proposal]] to focus their usage to where they benefit the content. Do you have any proof that text-only representation of information is better for comprehension? [[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|SFB]] 17:20, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
-*SFB, thanks for that interesting post (I'll look up the refs when I have time on the weekend). On your last point: could I ask you what the difference is between the New Zealand and Australian flags? [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk) </font >]] 07:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
+*SFB, thanks for that interesting post (I'll look up the refs when I have time on the weekend). On your last point: could I ask you what the difference is between the New Zealand and Australian flags? [[User:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">'''Tony'''</span>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) </span>]] 07:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 ::At the (high!) risk of sounding pedantic: one is the flag of New Zealand and the other is the flag of Australia. Send me a random link with one and I can tell you which one it is, just as I could with a house sparrow and a tree sparrow, but explaining that in words is an altogether more complex challenge. In both situations, I can clearly only do so because of specialist knowledge. I presume your question relates to being able to distinguish between the two on image alone? That, of course, is problematic and is why I support a guideline that ensures images are always presented with corresponding text. [[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|SFB]] 17:00, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 :: The flag of New Zealand is the one with <span style="font-size:90%;">(<abbr title="New Zealand">NZL</abbr>)</span> after the athlete's name and the flag of Australia is the one with <span style="font-size:90%;">(<abbr title="Australia">AUS</abbr>)</span> after the athlete's name.  — [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Andrwsc|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Andrwsc|contribs]]) 17:28, 23 May 2014 (UTC)