Talk:Alternative medicine

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False definition

"Alternative medicine is any practice that aims to achieve the healing effects of medicine, but which lacks biological plausibility and is untested, untestable or proven ineffective."

Alternative Medicine is simply referred to those treatments not in the mainstream of allopathic medicine. Traditional Chinese Medicine, for example, has been tested for thousands of years and clinically proven effective for centuries. The medical system has its complex anatomy and biological knowledge ahead of our time that scientists still yet to discover. It has the wisdom to treat a person as whole in a "natural" way, which means treating the core issues or the cause of the disease by looking into every aspect of mind and body possible, treating the often untreatable by "medical science", and not relying on long-term prescription drugs that covers the symptoms but cause side-effects. That's why millions of people turn to "Alternative Medicine" for different options of treatment that could be more effective in treating pain or chronical disease, for example. Not only it's clinically proven effective, but when allopathy medicine is not able to do no harm or without drugs. 67.174.218.173 (talk) 12:54, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

A very experienced wiki editor once said to me that you only need three things to edit wikipedia successfully. Sources, sources and sources. That's what you need, because we wont take the word of a stranger on the internet as evidence. See WP:RS. and for this topic, WP:MEDRS. Thanks. -Roxy the dog. wooF 12:59, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Actually the anon's first sentence was spot-on, but it went downhill from there. The simplest definition of alternative medicine is any practice not in the mainstream of science-based modern medicine. That includes practices that lack plausibility, are untested, untestable, or ineffective, but doesn't mean that all such practices suffer from those faults.

There are examples of practices once considered "alternative" that are now accepted as effective for certain things. For example, acupuncture can be effective in treating certain specific conditions, and some herbal remedies are recognized as effective in specific cases (e.g. ginger for motion sickness).

That lead sentence is not only unsourced, but violates WP:LEAD in that it does not correctly summarize what the body of the article says. In fact, the body of the article goes to some length on that, saying instead that "alternative medicine" includes practices in which effectiveness hasn't been established scientifically, or that the theory and practice isn't part of biomedicine, in addition to practices that blatantly contradict evidence and scientific principles.

The lead sentence needs to be rewritten to bring it into compliance with WP:LEAD. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:01, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

The topic of this article is really broad and the definition should be defined that way in the lead and the body, using the best sources available (not Skeptic's dictionaries and what not). Right now, the article has logical inconsistencies that will inevitably confuse the reader. "Alternative medicine can never be effective in treating anything. Except when it is effective. But then it wouldn't be alternative. But it is alternative. And alternative medicine can never be effective in treating anything..." Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk) 17:14, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Bad summary, but I'll give you points for trying. -- Valjean (talk) 22:46, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

@Valjean: If I read about Spinal Manipulation Therapy on Wikipedia, I'll find out that it's an Alternative Medicine AND that most studies suggest [spinal manipulation] achieves equivalent or superior improvement in pain and function when compared with other commonly used interventions. But if I read about alternative medicine, I'll learn that anything classified as alternative medicine by definition does not have a healing or medical effect. You see the logical inconsistency? What part of this is a "bad summary?" Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 20:35, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

This is getting into FORUM territory, so feel free to use my talk page. I will leave this clarification: We do not have an article about Spinal Manipulation Therapy at Wikipedia, and our Spinal manipulation article says "spinal manipulation was no more effective than other commonly used therapies". We also have a related article about Spinal adjustment, which is the AM variant practiced by chiropractors. It encompasses spinal manipulation and a whole host of other weird practices, some where the body is hardly even touched and the hands are not used, in favor of various mechanical and/or electric gizmos. The claims also range from the somewhat sensible to the esoteric religious "cure all" type. FYI, I am professionally trained and certified in manual therapies, including joint manipulation and spinal manipulation techniques. -- Valjean (talk) 02:39, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree that this is a false definition. Integrative Medicine redirects here and is an approved board certification under the American Board of Physician Specialties Integrative Medicine Board Certification | ABPS (abpsus.org) Integrative Medicine focuses on the whole person, with decisions about prevention and treatment made based on medical evidence. It also makes use of all appropriate therapeutic approaches, healthcare modalities, and disciplines to achieve optimal health and healing.What Is the ABOIM? | ABPS (abpsus.org) I'm very new to editing Wikipedia but have loved it for a long time and have never had an article make me so upset as this article makes me. I wish I knew how to make the changes I think it needs but I'm hoping this is the first step. I think this article should be flagged as controversial. What if the main title for the article is Integrative Medicine and alternative medicine is just a subsection? FloresTindall (talk) 22:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Flores, I can understand your frustration. This is a broad topic. CAM and Integrative Medicine (IM) are explained near the top. They ARE alternative medicine (AM) (exact same), but when it is used "along with" effective mainstream medicine.

Used alone, AM is not proven effective. For cancer, Norwegian research showed that using AM together with mainstream medicine produced worse outcomes. Search the article for Norwegian or Norway and read the source.

That's why the redirects point here. AM, CAM, and IM are all explained here.

Any change to the lead should be discussed here first. When a consensus for change is reached, then it will happen. -- Valjean (talk) 22:59, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

I am faculty at a family medicine residency and the integrative medicine curriculum director and I disagree with you that "CAM and Integrative Medicine...ARE alternative medicine (exact same)" The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health also disagrees as evidenced by their article Complementary, Alternative, or Integrative Health: What’s In a Name? | NCCIH (nih.gov) which clearly explains the differences. I have written their Press Office to inform them of the false definition and inaccurate portrayal on Wikipedia with the ask that they help to advocate for changes to this page. I think the best title would be Integrative Health, and if it is necessary to keep Alternative Medicine as the title, then I think we need to separate them and make Integrative Health its own page. The NCCIH writes that "Integrative health brings conventional and complementary approaches together in a coordinated way. Integrative health also emphasizes multimodal interventions, which are two or more interventions such as conventional medicine, lifestyle changes, physical rehabilitation, psychotherapy, and complementary health approaches in various combinations, with an emphasis on treating the whole person rather than, for example, one organ system. Integrative health aims for well-coordinated care among different providers and institutions by bringing conventional and complementary approaches together to care for the whole person." Complementary, Alternative, or Integrative Health: What’s In a Name? | NCCIH (nih.gov) It is interesting that Lifestyle Medicine is a separate wikipedia page that is portrayed in a positive light when lifestyle medicine is a key foundational component of integrative health (see definition above) but is not referenced on this page at all. Your one example of an article where a type of AM produced worse outcomes does not mean that AM as a whole is not proven effective. There are many components to AM, CAM, IM and each individual modality has its own evidence, some with better evidence than others, but you can't throw out all as being ineffective when many modalities have robust evidence supporting them. FloresTindall (talk) 00:37, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

@FloresTindall: Wikipedia has WP:RULES. Our rules might not be to your liking. E.g. NCCIH is widely considered a dubious source around here, i.e. it is seen as a pro-quackery apologetics organization. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:42, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I read the WP:RULES you reference and I don't see why NCCIH is considered a "dubious source" or how it is appropriate to call a government agency a "pro-quackery apologetics organization." Your statement clearly has a lot of bias which is something I thought was something Wikipedia tries to avoid. The University of Arizona defines "Integrative Medicine (IM) is healing-oriented medicine that takes account of the whole person, including all aspects of lifestyle. It emphasizes the therapeutic relationship between practitioner and patient, is informed by evidence, and makes use of all appropriate therapies." What is Integrative Medicine?: Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine (arizona.edu) Is that a source you consider credible? Or maybe Mayo Clinic Integrative medicine - Mayo Clinic Mayo Clinic Minute: What is integrative health and how can it help? - Mayo Clinic News Network FloresTindall (talk) 00:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Served with WP:GOODBIAS at your own talk page. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:00, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

The NCCIH was originally the OAM (Office of Alternative Medicine) under the NIH. That wasn't the NIH's idea, it was set up by a US Senator who was a fan of chiropractic (the 'cure any disease with manipulations' kind). The only reason that it is a separate from the NIH now is that when the NIH director tried to hold them to basic scientific standards the same senator got upset and spun them out to be independent (and thus not answerable to anyone but Congress, which in practice means not answerable to anyone). Given the history it should not be surprising that they aren't regarded as a reliable source, and just because a government puts a stamp of approval on something doesn't mean that it works - after all, India has a government agency that says putting coconut oil in your nose will help prevent COVID infection. MrOllie (talk) 01:14, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

FloresTindall, let me bring you up to speed with some important things you need to know:

1. Please read the Definitions and terminology section, where we discuss Complementary or integrative medicine and the Challenges in defining alternative medicine. It's a huge topic, so we attack it from many angles, and some may contradict each other. That's because various RS do so. Content is not based on the opinions of editors, even though we may express them on the talk page. When editing we leave that behind. Content is based on a wide variety of RS.
2. Integrative Medicine used to be a separate article, but the community decided it was better to integrate it here. It was never a large article, and only a community consensus would allow it to be started up again as a separate article. The same applies to Complementary medicine.
3. Please avoid any argument from authority. We do not regard some editors as better than others just because of their educational status. I have two medical educations and my wife has three, but even an uneducated, medically ignorant, editor who abides by our WP:PAG has just as many rights as I enjoy. The same applies to the many MDs and PhDs who edit this article. For example, we had to block a Nobel Prize winner because he would not follow our rules. That was sad, but we had to do it. He insisted that his greater knowledge (than maybe anyone else on Earth!) gave him the right to not depend on independent RS. Nope. That's not how we roll here. We have many physicians, researchers, Nobel laureates, Presidents of national medical societies, and other extremely qualified people working here, and most do so using pseudonyms for very good reasons. The internet is a dangerous place, and Wikipedia's open environment makes editors vulnerable to real life problems and professional embarrassment. I, for one, will do all I can to protect your real-life identity, but you must also be careful to not divulge anything. This article is currently watched by 801 editors, and many are professionals who know the subject, literature, research, history, and controversies. This talk page is where we civilly discuss our differences, and believe me, we do have them!
4. All aspects of the subject must be covered, including opinions and criticism. That means that non-neutral words and POV from RS are used. It is only editors who must be neutral, not sources or content. I have written an essay about how we deal with biased sources and NPOV: NPOV means neutral editing, not neutral content. It may help you understand this confusing topic. How can Wikipedia be neutral and yet have biased wordings and content? That's partially because around here "neutral" doesn't have the exact same meaning as elsewhere.
5. Wikipedia's medical articles have a higher standard for medical information sourcing than the sourcing standards for other articles. That's because that type of information must also meet the high bar of WP:MEDRS. That means we normally can't cite single studies but must cite reviews and meta-analyses of many good quality studies. This prevents editors from cherry-picking and violating our rules about WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. That also means we have higher standards than even the best medical journals, and we include far more than just the normal medical and scientific facts they include; we include all aspects of the subject, and historical and popular sources that are not governed by MEDRS can be used for such information. Our medical articles are now so good that most physicians use Wikipedia as their first source for medical information, and, done properly, that's okay. (That's a big caveat there! There are also cautions to observe.) Check out the articles found here.
6. We prefer that most content is from secondary and tertiary sources, not primary sources, although that is allowed in certain situations. It is the coverage in those secondary sources that tells us how much WP:Due weight to give a piece of information.

Enough for now. Feel free to use my talk page. -- Valjean (talk) 02:40, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

While a lot of this is difficult to understand I think I got the overall message. How does Wikipedia deal with articles that are subscription only access?

This article is Peer-reviewed and published in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine where they used a systematic process to develop a definition of Integrative Health. Is this something we would be able to reference in some form here?

Defining Health in a Comprehensive Context: A New Definition of Integrative Health. American Journal of Preventive Medicine, 2017-07-01, Volume 53, Issue 1, Pages 134-137, Copyright © 2017 American Journal of Preventive Medicine FloresTindall (talk) 19:01, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

On your first question, see WP:PAYWALL. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:10, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, we can use it in spite of the paywall. (Please provide the exact wording below so we can turn it into a usable reference.) We will often provide such information as an attributed self-definition, whether or not it is objective, self-promotional, or outright pushes nonsense or quackery. (I am only speaking of general principles, not accusing the AJPM of such a thing.) That does not mean it will become the definition used in the WP:LEAD of this article, as the LEAD is a summary of the whole article, so definitions there are often a summary of lots of content and multiple definitions found in the body of the article. As such, it does not have to be limited to a definition provided by the organization. (As for AM, there is no "organization" to make such a definition.) That's why the heading for this thread is misleading and misses the point. A summary definition is just a summary, not a "false definition". The lead summarizes AM, not just IM or CAM. -- Valjean (talk) 19:44, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Recreate IM article?

Hello @Valjean:, Over ten years ago, I noticed that integrative medicine was equated with complementary and alternative medicine and tried to change that here. As you noted, a consensus was reached at the time to keep them as if they are the same thing.

I'd like to reopen this discussion and invite others to join in. Ten years ago, the term Integrative Medicine was not yet "codified", so there was some basis, at the time, for calling it the same as alternative medicine. But over the past ten years that has changed - a lot. Integrative Medicine is practiced by all the major medical schools and hospitals and health networks. The practices under Integrative Medicine are ONLY those practices for which substantial evidence for efficacy and efficiency has been developed. I would like to create a draft Integrative Medicine page and put all of my sources and evidence on it for further discussion, but am not sure about the best way to go about doing that. Can you advise me please? CJ (talk) 18:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I like your idea. It will give everyone a chance to see if the result has merit, especially the newer RS you will use.

I suggest you create the draft at User:Cjrhoads/Draft_Integrative_Medicine. You can copy material from this article, its archives, and the history at Integrative Medicine, where it used to be a separate article. Don't try to recreate the article in article space before a discussion here. The current redirect should not be changed without that discussion. -- Valjean (talk) 19:28, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

That's a good idea. I'll work on it when the University semester is over. Thanks for the encouragement.

CJ (talk) 14:43, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm curious about which AM practices fit under "ONLY those practices for which substantial evidence for efficacy and efficiency has been developed." Please list them. As you may well know, any practice which has such evidence is not called "alternative medicine"; it's just called "medicine". IM and CAM are rightly accused of being attempts to sneak/rename AM quackery into medicine. That's a hurdle you'll need to deal with and discuss in your new article as it's a major criticism. IM and CAM are areas which reveal that anyone, especially hospital administrators, will do anything for money, and adding acupuncture, homeopathy, and such like does draw in more patients and makes more money, even when they do nothing more than give comfort. Such decisions are based on financial considerations, not scientific evidence, but they of course obfuscate and attempt to pass off their decisions as scientifically plausible. Unfortunately they cannot provide anything but the weakest of "evidence" while showing an increase in profits. That's how capitalism works. It isn't evidence-based. -- Valjean (talk) 19:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Valjean,

I don't plan to get into the "it's all for money" concept because there are too many examples of standard modern western medicine providing therapies of dubious value "just for the money". Let's just agree that both standard western medicine and alternative and complementary medicine each has its share of bad actors who utilize therapies of dubious value because it lines their pockets rather than help the patient. They also both have the MAJORITY of practioners who are just trying to do the best they can for their patients - and sometimes modern western medicine doesn't have the answers while other systems do have the answers.

However, your point - that we don't want quackery to enter into integrative medicine is well understood and agreed upon. From the beginning I have been a dogged researcher who will not allow either personal feelings or financial considerations bias my research. And I'm not alone. Most integrative healthcare practitioners are well aware that we must be diligent against fraudulent practices that don't actually benefit the patient. For example - magnets have pretty much be debunked entirely by medical research, while acupunture, medication, tai chi , qigong, yoga, Pilates, and other activities have been supported - some of them strongly - by the medical research that has been done on them. I noticed that you mentione acupuncture as quackery - but I believe you need to reread the medical research on that topic. Even insurance companies now cover that practice, so it is likely considered "medicine" and not "alternative" by most doctors.

And, of course, here's the info I shared with you on my talk page: CJ (talk) 14:53, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

CJ, I asked you above for a list of those practices that fit "ONLY those practices for which substantial evidence for efficacy and efficiency has been developed" and decided to do a bit of research. I used the American Board of Physician Specialties link provided above by FloresTindall and found this page: Integrative Medicine Examination Description There I found two sections:

Complementary Modalities

• Manual Therapies
• Biofield Therapies
• Acupuncture
• Movement Therapies
• Expressive Arts

Whole Medical Systems

• Traditional Chinese Medicine
• Ayurveda
• Indigenous Medical Systems
• Homeopathic Medicine
• Naturopathic Medicine
• Osteopathic Medicine
• Chiropractic
• Functional Medicine

Right off the bat we see several fully quackish and unscientific items in the Whole Medical Systems section (which I have wikilinked for convenience), the worst, IMO, being Homeopathy. Wow! Just study those articles to see what RS say about them. None of them fit the "ONLY those practices for which substantial evidence for efficacy and efficiency has been developed", with the exception of Osteopathic Medicine, which is fully modern mainstream medicine, not AM. What is really meant is Osteopathy, which is AM. We have two articles here to make the difference. -- Valjean (talk) 03:05, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

For convenience I have also included the AM series box we include on many of these articles. -- Valjean (talk) 03:05, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

CJ and FloresTindall I need at least one good RS which clearly states that Integrative Medicine are ONLY those practices for which substantial evidence for efficacy and efficiency has been developed. -- Valjean (talk) 15:22, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I am really looking forward to getting my hand on reliable sources for IM efficacy. Baits Breath -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 15:57, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@Valjean: The problem is that Wikipedia does not follow RS for lumping integrative medicine in with alternative medicine, does it? Can you show me anything other than "skeptic" sources that does? Everything I find on the internet, from sources such as Harvard here, to Cleveland Clinic refer to integrative medicine as something either more or different than alternative medicine. You're not going to convince people just by saying "it's true because I said it!" And you're certainly not going to convince anyone because "capitalism" when conventional medicine is also "capitalism". Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 16:48, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

?? Right above, the ABPS (a RS) exam for IM covers many AM practices. When mainstream medical practitioners "integrate" AM practices with their mainstream medicine it's called "Integrative Medicine". If that doesn't define IM, then what does? Do you know of RS that say otherwise? It's really simple and easy to understand. -- Valjean (talk) 17:45, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

That's my whole point. In the lead for the alternative medicine article it says, integrative medicine (IM), and holistic medicine are among many rebrandings... of alternative medicine. But integrated medicine IS NOT a synonym or "rebranding" of alt medicine is it? It's defined by all sources, including yours, as a combination of alt and conventional therapies, and should be defined that way. What part of this is hard to understand? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:11, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

It's not hard to understand, and I agree that wording should be tweaked. How's this? integrative medicine (IM), and holistic medicine are among many rebrandings to describe various ways alternative medicine is combined with mainstream medicine. I think that small change can resolve the matter without starting huge discussions and edit warring. -- Valjean (talk) 17:33, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for hearing me out. I think that's a lot better yes. Personally, I would tweak that to integrative medicine (IM), and holistic medicine are terms used to describe various ways alternative medicine is combined with mainstream medicine. But I would personally be fine either way. I just think "rebranding" is an odd word to stick in the lead of an article. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:03, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done Now it reads: Complementary medicine (CM), complementary and alternative medicine (CAM), integrated medicine or integrative medicine (IM), and holistic medicine are among many rebrandings that describe various ways alternative medicine is combined with mainstream medicine. I hope that is a reasonable solution. Your concern was justified. It was indeed awkwardly written. -- Valjean (talk) 23:19, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the collaborative spirit (and for enlightening me on the functioning of the industry a bit). I think it reads much better now, and I hope others agree. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:06, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

To illustrate, let's imagine how two construction workers (AM & MM) use their tools on different projects. In this example, each usually works with two completely different types of tools and builds different kinds of buildings for different kinds of customers, although there is overlap; some customers like both, so they make separate work orders from each one.

AM's tools are pretty, esoteric, and really feel good stuff! MM's tools are fairly rigid and boring colors.

MM decides he wants to add AM's pretty tools to his toolbox. When MM uses all those tools together, he is practicing IM because he has "integrated" AM's tools into his construction practice. Now MM snags more of AM's customers who can now get the best of both worlds with one order.

AM + MM = IM. That's how it works. -- Valjean (talk) 18:05, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

So in your example, would you say that that the IM he is practicing is 100% not effective? Do the AM tools spoil the whole toolbox? Because that's what this article definitively states. That IM is a synonym, or rebranding, of alt medicine, and that alt medicine, and thereffor conventional medicine that integrates it, "is not effective." Simple logical fallacy, you see? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

No. "100% not effective" is an extreme interpretation. That means 0% effective. It just means that the addition is less effective. While the AM may provide some psychological comfort effects (a nice thing), it doesn't seriously contribute to the physiological healing effects of the mainstream methods, and in some cases may actually weaken the overall effect. It also adds to the cost for the patient as many insurance companies will not cover methods that lack strong evidence, so the patient must pay for it. Unfortunately, the provider usually doesn't (never?!) make it clear that the AM methods being used aren't proven effective. If the IM practitioner is being honest and explains to their cancer patient that the addition of massage, aromatherapy, etc. is for comfort and does not have any curative effect on cancer, then I see no problem with it. False marketing is quackery, gives false hope, and literally empties the patient's bank account. Truth in advertising is good, but it's rare for this stuff, as the pretense of effect, a marketing ploy, is why it's done at all. Massage is great for musculoskeletal issues, but not for curing cancer.

If I had used bricklayers as the example above, the IM practitioner is adding nicely colored bricks of dubious strength to his wall. The cool patterns are prettier, good for marketing, and increases profits, thus fooling the patient. It also adds no real strength to the wall and actually weakens it. -- Valjean (talk) 17:33, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Lego bricks. pretty but useless in the real building world. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 19:35, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Remove unprofessional words/provocative language

This isn't a forum for your opinions (WP:NOTFORUM)

Many GP use homoeopathic remedies in their day today practice. They are finding integrating remedies is beneficial to the patient and NHS in many ways. Some are even taking up courses to use more homoeopathic remedies because they see the effectiveness when correctly prescribed.There must be something in this system for sure which has not been updated. It is high time we give this science it’s due respect and stop using provocative language like pseudo, quackery, . Using such words is unprofessional and insulting to scientific minds.I request to confirm facts from right sources not on individual opinions for the better of humanity 86.190.168.98 (talk) 09:51, 16 March 2022 (UTC) PLease provide proper sources for your claims. Nillurcheier (talk) 09:55, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Proof Homoeopathy is not pseudoscience

Proof 19 million users in authentic Homoeopathy alone Post graduate courses in Uk enrolls many GPs in homoeopathic course, No updates based on latest reasearch articles

This is not personal opinion , but bringing to notice facts to preserve authenticity of Wikipedia. 86.190.168.98 (talk) 12:12, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

That isn’t proof. Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 12:18, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Skeptics dictionary for acronym sCAM

This existing article citation here which links to the Skepdic's Dictionary as a source for an acronym is unencyclopedic and warrants removal. The other source doesn't mention the acronym "sCAM" in the section that is accessible to review via the linked url. If it does actually appear in the text of the full article, a quote as part of the citation would be a wise beginning. The sentence describing this acronym is WP:UNDUE. Cedar777 (talk) 23:51, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Cedar777, thank you for starting this thread. The Skeptic's Dictionary is a good source for alternative medicine and other pseudoscience topics, and one sentence can hardly be "undue" as NPOV/balance requires the skeptical POV must be mentioned. The very first sentence in the second source (Medicine, Health Care and Philosophy) says: "In recent years so-called Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM) practices..."

Here's our long-standing current version:

"It has also been called sCAM or SCAM with the addition of "so-called" or "supplements".

I suspect that someone has added a bit to that over the years, as I don't see "supplements" in the source, and without a RS that should be removed. I have often seen sCAM and SCAM with that word used to explain it by people who don't know the origins of sCAM. (Neither Carroll nor Ernst are the originators.) The original version is "so-Called Alternative Medicine (sCAM)", but the source for that version is not reliable enough for use here.

What about this version, with an added descriptive source and the sources in the right spots?

"The phrase CAM has been described as "so-called Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM)", while The Skeptic's Dictionary adds their skeptical touch to the acronym: "sCAM: so-called Complementary & Alternative Medicine", directly alluding to the word scam to describe the skepticism toward CAM from mainstream medicine because of the "lack of scientific rigor of 'complementary' treatments".

Other sources which refer to the book by Edzard Ernst: [1][2] -- Valjean (talk) 00:51, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

User:Harold the Sheep, in your edit summary you reveal a negative attitude toward "non-neutral sources". As an editor at Wikipedia, especially with the clear wordings in NPOV about source neutrality, where on earth do you get such an attitude and why should it have anything to do with edits? You should know better. -- Valjean (talk) 15:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The word “non-neutral” isn’t essential to the point being made. It was an allusion to your comment to Cedar777. Harold the Sheep (talk) 22:36, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Harold the Sheep is right. It's quite a stretch to say that something "has been described as" because one guy called it that in his book and on his self-published blog. These sources are not good or numerous, so what's the point other than to add one more little "gotcha!" to an article that already reads like a public service announcement? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 15:56, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Ernst isn't just "one guy", but the first professor of CAM in the world and a renowned subject matter expert. It's rare to have a science-based expert dealing with the controversial border issues between fringe medicine and mainstream medicine in an academic setting, one who possesses a background and personal experience from both worlds. NPOV and balance means we include both sides of the story, and this provides the mainstream side. We are a mainstream encyclopedia. -- Valjean (talk) 16:10, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm not convinced, Valjean, sorry. Are you saying this article is one-sided in favor of alternative medicine? Are you also saying that this one guy (he's still just one guy) gets to plug his book, because he's a a professor who came up with a cute acronym? What you're suggesting is that IN WIKIPEDIA'S VOICE, we write that all of CAM is also referred to as SCAM. Is it? Who is calling it that? This one guy called it that? Oh, but he speaks for all of "mainstream science". He does? Who said he does? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

He did not come up with the acronym, and we aren't saying it in wikivoice. We are attributing it to the sources (plural) and anyone can see who wrote about it, which is more than Edzard Ernst. We're also citing Harriet Hall, who is also a subject matter expert. We can always name them if you feel that would be better, and the wording can be tweaked. Try to improve it per WP:PRESERVE. We are supposed to try to improve and keep long-standing content. -- Valjean (talk) 00:34, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

While a self-described "irreverent" guide may be entertaining to some readers, it does not reflect the kind of sourcing warranted here. A few web blogs use the acronym sCAM or SCAM for derogatory criticism only. That acronym is nowhere close to being in widespread usage. A more globally relevant source defining the common terminology is the World Health Organization (WHO), which reviewed 150+ member states in their 2019 report on Traditional and Complementary Medicine. In the 2019 study's glossary, the acronym CAM is defined as "The terms “complementary medicine” and “alternative medicine” refer to a broad set of health care practices that are not part of that country’s own traditional or conventional medicine and are not fully integrated into the dominant health care system. They are used interchangeably with traditional medicine in some countries."

In the report Legal Status of Traditional Medicine and Complementary/Alternative Medicine: A Worldwide Review from 2001 w/ 120+ member states, WHO defines Complementary/Alternative medicine as

The terms “complementary medicine” and “alternative medicine” are used interchangeably with “traditional medicine” in some countries. Complementary/alternative medicine often refers to traditional medicine that is practised in a country but is not part of the country’s own traditions. As the terms “complementary” and “alternative” suggest, they are sometimes used to refer to health care that is considered supplementary to allopathic medicine. However, this can be misleading. In some countries, the legal standing of complementary/alternative medicine is equivalent to that of allopathic medicine, many practitioners are certified in both complementary/alternative medicine and allopathic medicine, and the primary care provider for many patients is a complementary/alternative practitioner.

Practicies and laws vary considerably accross the globe. For the UK, the 2001 report says the country has "public-sector hospitals for complementary/alternative medicine" and the 2019 report states that "traditional and complementary medicine is integrated into the national health policy". The 2019 report also states that herbal medicines are sold with medical claims in Germany, Sweden, Japan, Switzerland, and Australia among others. Four countires (India, Nepal, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka) offer a degree in Ayurveda, a practice that is "well integrated into the national health care system and recognized by the government of India".

This article currently devotes only a tiny space to covering what CAM is, what its forms are, where its practiced, if its growing, and how it's regulated around the world. If CAM and/or integrated medicine was a seperate article page with the space to cover the topic in depth, including a breakdown of the range of its forms along with summaries of the evolving legal and regulatory status of these forms throughout the world, then including the perspective of specific American skeptics and critics might be DUE. However, it is clearly an opinion position and should be framed as such, i.e. "Robert T. Carroll, author of The Skeptic's Dictionary, and Mark Crislip an infectious disease doctor and alterntive medicine critic/blogger/podcaster strenously reject integrating alternative medicine into mainstream medicine and refer to CAM as SCAM."

The other source from Medicine, Health Care and Philosophy that had appeared alongside the Skeptics Dictionary, does not use anything other than CAM for an acronym. It just doesn't link up the letters. Implying that it does is SYNTH. Cedar777 (talk) 02:14, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

I basically agree with your point that a separate article for CAM might be warranted but it has been rejected in favor of a redirect to this page where it is mentioned but not in the in-depth manner the subject deserves. That doesn't mean you can't move the consensus toward accepting it. Why not start a draft in your userspace at User:Cedar777/CAM_draft? Develop it there and then propose it here? -- Valjean (talk) 15:03, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

References

To avoid edit warring, let's discuss this removal

My removal of content in this diff, was reverted by Roxy_the_Dog. The reason for that removal was that you have three quotes saying the almost exact same thing: "if it worked it would just be "medicine". I removed the two quotes that were not from people in the medical field (an entertainer, and a journalist), and retained the one by the doctor. That seems reasonable to me, but clearly Roxy feels differently. I'd love to hear why three almost word-for-word quotes belong next to each other, two of which are medical statements made by lay people help the article, when the one quote by the doctor would be plenty sufficient to make the point. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:26, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Pyrrho the Skipper, I agree that Angell is one of the more qualified here. I read Angell's interview transcript from PBS yesterday and found that she had far more insightful things to contribute than her existing quote on the Alternative Medicine page where it is 1 of 4 quotes repeating nearly the same thing. If her image is being used as the face of something, it logically follows that her expertise is represented at some length, preferably paraphrased. Angell also elaborated on the sociological and psychological aspects of CAM, something that a quality article would address, preferably sourced to peer-reviewed journals. Minchin is an entertainer, not a subject matter expert in medicine. There is no need to cite a 10 minute YouTube video of a rant and call it a high quality source. It simply isn't one. Cedar777 (talk) 18:46, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Pyrrho, this is not a real "medical field", and there is no requirement that we only use content from medical sources or medical authorities. It's a pseudoscientific field pretending to be medicine. If this were a strictly medical subject, the sourcing requirements would be higher, but this is a topic covered by WP:PARITY, and commentary from all types of RS is allowed because mainstream authorities rarely comment on these things. Read that and you'll see that other types of sources are expressly allowed for this type of subject. Minchin comes from a medical family and is known for his insightful commentary as a popular comic who deals with serious issues, hence accuracy is important. The reason his quote is notable is that he summarizes the issues in a more succinct manner than anyone else and in a way they do not do. Using only the "doctor" source leaves the impression of a lone critic, but using several different types of critics leaves the right impression. The scientific skeptic community deserves representation as they are the main critics of AM.

I definitely agree about Angell. She has had an illustrious and highly-respected career. Her NEJM article is spot on. Fontanarosa and Lundberg share her views. -- Valjean (talk) 19:22, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

leaves the right impression The right impression according to who? You? Please remember that Wikipedia is a collaboration. Others have agreed with me, and others have agreed with you on this matter. Your comment assumes that your opinion on how an article should be written (not the subject itself) is the only correct opinion. But several editors disagree with you. Just as several disagree with me. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 22:12, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

And a link relevant to the general discussion: transcript of "lyrics" for Minchin's YouTube video. The gist of it (for those who don't want to sit through a 10 minute video rant or read the transcript) is that Minchin is really, really, really irritated by a female guest at a dinner party and decides to go a tirade. (His wife and the female host aren't thrilled to see him struggle and fail to contain his emotional outburst.) Other comments from the Minchin video where he addresses this woman include: "here's what gives me a hard-on" and "sharing curries and getting shitty at good-looking hippies with fairies on their spines and butterflies on their titties". Gee, why leave these gems on the cutting room floor?

Describing Angel as having an "illustrious and highly-respected career" doesn't match the action of using her face of respectability as an article image for a series of repetitive quotes that are ultimately capped off with Minchin. At least display Angel's mind at some length along with her image. Minchin's video belongs on his own page, not here. Cedar777 (talk) 23:35, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Valjean named the alternative: the impression of a lone critic. Valjean is right: this reasoning is very common, and having it once could give the wrong impression that it is not. You seem to be saying that you and the others who have agreed with you want to leave that wrong impression because you think it is not wrong.

Minchin has been pretty influential: I'd say that reasoning was invented by him, at least in this form. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:47, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Tim Minchin, by his own admission, is an insignificant, ignorant bit of carbon who gives himself a hard-on by vomiting his bile over dinner guests. While I admire his honesty and certainly agree with his assessment of himself, I'd say the 'reasoning' invented by him in this onanistic rant is not something that has any place in an encyclopedia article on alternative medicine. Harold the Sheep (talk) 04:31, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm in favor of removing Minchin. I'd be more likely to support inclusion if there were other RS that quote him on it. I'm glad we have PARITY, but we have better sources available and more authoritative voices to highlight. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 01:32, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I also support the removal of Tim Minchin's views. It's a primary source (even if a 'viral video') given no additional weight. There are surely scores of better sources, scholarly and otherwise. The view that because alternative medicine is is not a 'strictly medical' topic we should lower standards is fallacious. As a comparison, comedian Ricky Gervais is a noted atheist, and a good deal of his material pokes fun at Biblical stories. It would be quite silly however to cite one of his stand-up specials in Noah's Ark on the grounds that "since scientists haven't found it yet, we can pretend to not be a serious encyclopedia." --Animalparty! (talk) 20:37, 28 March 2022 (UTC)