Talk:Aversion therapy

Effectiveness

This article definitely needs something saying how effective aversion therapy is — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.85.252 (talk) 21:12, 2 March 2006‎

Aversion therapy has had almost a century of use, during which it has proven itself remarkably ineffective. Although, this article is remarkably in need of cleanup. -Seth Mahoney 21:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC}

Cleanup

I'm adding the cleanup tag for the following reasons:

1. The article doesn't go into much detail on what aversion therapy is, how it is supposed to work, what methods are used, etc.

2. "One patient said of aversion therapy" - what patient? Who said this? Where is it documented?

-Seth Mahoney 21:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Sexually Deviant Youth

What?! In developed world countries? References? Rsynnott 18:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Trivia

Don't forget the Simpsons episode "No Disgrace Like Home" (the one where they all go to group therapy and shock each other) - the therapist specfically refers to aversion therapy while introducing the procedure.--4.244.27.33 21:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Re Homosexuality

While much of the article focuses on homosexuality, it is not an LGBT issue as aversion therapy has only been used to attempt to convert gay men. Aversion therapy is much wider than that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eedo Bee (talk • contribs) 10:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

I think you mean that "aversion therapy has not only been used to attempt to convert gay men". Even though this is correct, it doesn't mean that this article doesn't fall within the LGBT project since attempted conversion of gay men and women using aversion therapy is common and a significant issue for the gay community. An article does not have to be only about the subject of a project to legitimately fall within that project's scope. Best, Gwernol 12:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Judge Rotenberg Center

Please see this report about a facility, which we in Europe regards as the standard treatment center of North America for Aspergers illnesses.

• [Observations and Finding of Out-of-State program visitation - Judge Rotenberg Educational Center]

Is it not Aversion therapy, they are using? Covergaard 05:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

More a punishment paradign jcautilli2003 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.95.151.139 (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Homosexuality

Second paragraph in 'Aversion therapy and homosexuality' reads... As of 2006, aversion therapy, when used to treat homosexuality, is...

don't you think we should get rid of the word treat... homosexuality isn't a disease!!! Luke0406 21:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Luke, you are entirely correct. Feel free to change as you deem necessary. Doc Tropics 21:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ant-abuse & aversion therapy

Certainly on the first pass, ant-abuse is not a form of aversion therapy (it is rule governed behavior) but if the lapse occurs, then it quickly becomes aversion therapy (paring of the alcohol with vomiting). Some would argue it even goes as far as being a punishment paradign, since the vomiting is contingent on the drinking behavior. jcautilli2003 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.95.151.139 (talk) 15:51, 3 January 2008‎

Removed ex-gay movement category

I removed the ex-gay movement category. Please, before anyone decides to restore it, consider that aversion therapy is used for many things that have nothing to do with homosexuality, and that individual aversion therapists don't necessarily take any position on homosexuality. Note that psychoanalysis is not placed in the ex-gay movement category, despite the fact that it too has sometimes been used to try to change homosexuality, so there is a serious issue of consistency and logic here. Skoojal (talk) 04:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I am going to remove the sexual orientation and medicine category. The reason is essentially the same as the one given above - aversion therapy has nothing necessarily to do with sexual orientation and medicine (and again, note that psychoanalysis does not have this category, although the case for it would be about the same - so don't simply restore the category to this article while leaving psychoanalysis untouched). Skoojal (talk) 04:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I've added Category:Conversion therapy. The article devotes considerable space to the use of this form of therapy to convert sexual orientation, so it clearly belongs. There is no rule that 100% of a topic must fall within a category for it to be categorized. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

See above regarding my comments on psychoanalysis. You'd face a long struggle if you wanted to categorize psychoanalysis that way, which, by your own logic, you should. If a category cannot be applied consistently and sensibly, it should not be used. As far as I know, the rules regarding categories are unclear on the point you mention - they don't say whether something that partially overlaps with a category can be placed within it or not. Further discussion, or even a request for comment, might be appropriate here. Skoojal (talk) 03:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I've looked at WP:CAT, which you directed me to on my talk page. It says, "Generally, the relationship between an article and its categories should be definable as "(Article) is (category)": John Goodman is an American actor, Copenhagen is a city in Denmark, Jane Austen is an English writer, etc. Do not apply categories whose relationship to the topic is definable only as "(Article) is a subject related to (category)", such as filing a teacher directly into Category:Education, an album directly into Category:Music or a book about skydiving directly into Category:Parachuting. Similarly, categorize articles by characteristics of the topic, not characteristics of the article: a biographical article about a specific person, for example, does not belong in Category:Biography." This supports my stance, not yours. Skoojal (talk) 03:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The bulk of this article concerns conversion therapy. To use your examples above, John Goodman is in both "People from New Orleans, Louisiana" and "People from St. Louis County, Missouri". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

'categorize articles by characteristics of the topic, not characteristics of the article' is what WP:CAT says. Again, that supports my position, not yours. Skoojal (talk) 03:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to restore this, at least until the CFD is completed. Once that's settled we can decide what to do next. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You restored the category with the vague comment that it is "relevant." That doesn't amount to a response to my comments above. WP:CAT supports my stance on this matter, not yours. If you aren't open to discussion about that, then there is certainly a problem here. I may place a request for comment, or take this to the Administrators Noticeboard/Incidents. Skoojal (talk) 00:53, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

You keep making threats to take things to the ANI, though I don't understand what you intend to say there. If you feel that filing a complaint is the best way to get consensus on this issue then go ahead. All I've done is ask that you not depopulate the category while the CfD is pending. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If, in my view, you are throwing your weight around as an admin and trying to use that to settle this issue (as in, "I'm an admin and you're not, so therefore I'm right and you're wrong"), I will have little choice but to take this to ANI. It would be a last resort, however. I've asked several other editors for input, and may ask others. You asked me not to remove articles from the category; I fully intend to do that when I see it as appropriate. The fundamental problem is that it's just not clear when this category should be used and when it shouldn't; the category page does not clarify that. If I take this to ANI, pointing out that you created a category that, because of its vagueness, can be and is being misused would be part of what I'd say.Skoojal (talk) 01:35, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Please provide the diff in which I made that statement. I don't recall ever saying anything like it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not accusing you of making any such statement. I am simply saying that if that turns out to be your attitude (I don't know yet whether it is or not), then as a last resort I am going to have to try taking this to ANI. Skoojal (talk) 04:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If I ever say something like that you're welcome to scold me for it. I don't think I ever have in my time on Wikipedia. I'd urge you again to assume good faith and to focus on the editors not the editing. This is a collaborative project and a combative approach is not helpful. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:56, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a relevant category. The guideline in WP:CAT for adding an article to a category is: If you go to the article from the category, will it be obvious why the article was put in the category? Is the category subject prominently discussed in the article? The answer to both questions is clearly yes.

Aversion Therapy is a form of Conversion Therapy certainly works as a formulation which accurately categorizes a substantial portion of the article, and does not preclude aversion therapy being other things as well in other contexts. The guideline to categorize the topic, not the article is making a subject/format distinction, which isn't relevant here.--Trystan (talk) 02:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The sentence you quote is not the entire guideline. It's simply one of the numerous questions that has to be considered, according to the guideline. Also, it's untrue that Aversion therapy is a form of Conversion therapy. It may be sometimes used as Conversion therapy, but that's a different matter. Please consider that if anything that's ever used to try to change homosexuality counts as Conversion therapy, then possibly most forms of psychotherapy would have to be categorized that way, including everything from Psychoanalysis to obscure things like EMDR (which is discussed as a possible treatment for homosexuality here [1]). If the category were applied that broadly it would loose all meaning. Skoojal (talk) 03:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Can I suggest that the Electric Shock Therapy be updated by saying how dangerous it is to patients. Regarding the fact that every time a person experiences an electric shock they are exposed to non-ionising radiation, exposing patients to Cancer's, Leukaemia's, Neurological diseases like Motor Neuron's Disease here in the UK but called by other names in the US. I would edit this page myself but as you can see from my nick I'm an electric shock survivor but I'm also a qualified teacher and electrical engineer. I have brain injury and many other illnesses and suffer from memory loss and lost most grammar skills, so I rely on other people, however I have been researching the subject of electric shocks and EMF's for the past 8 years. if you need information, I can point you in the right direction to find the info. Shocksurvivor (talk) 20:50, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Legal and ethical challenges to the use of aversive procedures

I added an NPOV tag here because it contains the following opinions:

• "However, it is important for regulatory bodies to discuss the use of aversives and punishment techniques."
• "While in some cases the means is jusified by the end effect, behavior analysts need to remember that their overaching goal is to do no harm[3]"

see WP:NPOV for how to fix this. Benwing (talk) 04:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Judge Rotenberg Center image

 Administrator note: that image is highly inappropriate. There has to be clear consensus for its addition, at the very least. El_C 03:22, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

A student receives GED shocks while restrained to a four-point board at the Judge Rotenberg Center.

As the poster of that image, I am here to seek consensus for its reinstatement. All editors are invited to participate.

It is my opinion that this image is appropriate for inclusion alongside the text for Judge Rotenberg Center, as it provides an accurate visual description of a form of aversion therapy that was approved by the courts, cleared by the FDA, and used there for over 25 years before it was banned in 2020. The image was drawn by a former resident of the center name Jennifer Msumba, and depicts her receiving shocks from the Graduated Electronic Decelerator while restrained to a four-point board. Jennifer has graciously agreed to led Wikipedia use this image. This punishment (multiple GED shocks while restrained to a four-point board) was inflicted on many residents, as is made clear by the linked articles. As this picture is vividly and accurately depicts a form of aversion therapy that went on there, I would like it to be included in the article. --66.244.121.212 (talk) 05:18, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

References

• Agree image is inappropriate; need to get the WP:TONE right. Alexbrn (talk) 11:59, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Electroshock Therapy

In literature, use of electric shocks in aversion therapy is often refereed to as electroshock therapy. Yes, ECT also has been branded as electroshock therapy but the confusion between the two is legitimate and needs to be established.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/shock-the-gay-away-secrets-of-early-gay-aversion-therapy-revealed_b_3497435 72.85.48.246 (talk) 13:40, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Huffpost is not a reliable medical source. It's not really an issue among professionals, especially since use of shock in aversion therapy is largely a thing of the past. Sundayclose (talk) 02:05, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

These prospects in the Huffingthon Post are one of the good sources in the case of electrical aversion therapy. It is correct and it has no confusion.

A) There is much confusion about the very prominent electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) and the mostly unknown electrical aversion therapy. I have seen now many videos, and an historical exhibition, where the text about aversion therapy was combined with pictures or video of ETC. This mismatch is very common. Even in medical and scientific articles. I have a Habilitation (a work to become university professor) from Austria, the only monography about curing of homosexuals in German, with this mismatch.
And proponents for "conversion therapy" can say, that they are against "electoshocks" and it was almost never used (beside rare cases in the 1950s). It would help to clarify the knowledge, so that all people can use the proer terms.

B) "from the past"

• In the past, from 1938 until 1970s, there exists "sexual psychopath laws" / psychopathic offender laws in the half of the US-states. In many cases the offender has to undergo threatment.
• The Aversion Project in Southafrica 1971-1989
• Brigham Young University LGBT history#Aversion therapy at BYU from 1969 until mid-1990s. First it was on campus. Later it was done off-campus at nearby therapeuts. From 1996: BYU Electroshock Documentary - Gay Conversion Therapy Program
• In single cases there are stories from the last 10 years, that therapeuts at least suggests to undergo electrical aversion therapy, if other treatments don't work.
• In a second review about conversion therapy in Australia, they found one case of shock therapy (and one with testosterone-blockers. And the christian initiatives go underground.)
• In the last 20 years there was some historical reworking of this practise in the UK.

• 2004: Treatments of homosexuality in Britain since the 1950s—an oral history: the experience of patients: The most common treatment (from the early 1960s to early 1970s, with one case in 1980) was behavioural aversion therapy with electric shocks (11 participants). (Alternate site)
• 2004: Treatments of homosexuality in Britain since the 1950s—an oral history: the experience of professionals: Treatments / Most of the professionals provided behavioural treatments, which included aversion therapy and covert sensitisation. Aversion therapy with electric shock was the most common treatment.
• BBC/Youtube: Gay 'cure': "I did aversion therapy for my mother" - BBC Stories

• 2017 Gay shock therapy still in use in China - Unreported World (The aversion therapy can be made with an self-triggered portable device. In handling like the rubber-band on the wrist in some ex-gay-programs in the US. And in China, there is also a third form of "electrical shock" to "cure nerves".)
• ABC Library, a short film Gay Aversion Therapy 1970 display a typical setting
• A single horror story about the memory changing tortutre: This Gay Man Was Given Repeated Electric Shocks By British Doctors To Make Him Straight

C) I have now the problem in the notes of the current version of Stonewall riots, where it is written: "Through the 1950s and 1960s, castration, emetics, hypnosis, electroshock therapy and lobotomies were used by psychiatrists to try to "cure" homosexuals." And "electroshock therapy" is falsley linked to electroconvulsive therapy. But here in Aversion Therapy is nothing about this practise. (1950s, 1960s, it was ECT) -Franz (Fg68at) de:Talk 01:07, 13 June 2021 (UTC) Edit --Franz (Fg68at) de:Talk 20:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

disappearance addicition treatment therapy

Srinkage and disappearance as far as addiction treatment therapy.