Talk:John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories

Local Fox affiliates

@BrandonTRA: The reference to fox10news is actually an article by local affiliate WASA. per the [q] footnote on the WP:RSP entry: "Local Fox affiliates are considered distinct from Fox News, and are covered by WP:NEWSORG." But, regardless, the applicable WP:RSP entry would actually be Fox News (news excluding politics and science) as this is a topic of history. And that entry reads: "There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science". I'm no fan of Fox News, but I am a fan of correctly applied Wikipedia policy. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 19:14, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

"There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science". Indeed, Fox News in not reliable on politics and science, but it's very reliable on entertainment ... lol BrandonTRA (talk) 20:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

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Fox News is not a reliable source in regard to either politics or science (see: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) -- non- WP:RS. In accordance, I have removed Fox News citations. BrandonTRA (talk) 05:12, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

WASA Fox10news is a local fox affiliate, as described above. It is an independent news organization affiliated with but operated independently from the national media channel Fox News. Fox affiliate citations are handled differently from typical fox news citations. Please read the WP:RSP entry more carefully. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 05:13, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Fox News is generally reliable on ALL topics other than politics. In the subject of politics, it reliably presents a conservative view of the nature and significance of current events, thereby suffering the vile calumny of the left (or: every other mainstream media source) of being "unreliable." In that context, "unreliable" means "they don't parrot the liberal cant."98.183.25.236 (talk) 04:23, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

History Matters

One need not look much farther for evidence of this website's non-reliability than its front page: "In the wake of the end of the Cold War and the passage of the 1992 JFK Assassination Records Collection Act, the U.S. Government has declassified an enormous number of formerly-secret documents. Among the most stunning are those pertaining to the 1963 assassination of President Kennedy and its subsequent investigations. The new records contain stark indications of conspiracy, and a great wealth of material concerning the hows and whys of the ensuing coverup."

This website is not a news organization or a scholarly journal. It does not have an editorial board. It does not have any editorial policy. It is comprised of various essays and thoughts of conspiracy theorists.

The pertinent wikipedia policy is WP:FRINGE. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 22:08, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Now you say that the pertinent Wiki policy is WP:FRINGE In other words, you've changed your argument mid-stream from your previous "unreliable" justification to your new "fringe" justification. Of course, your new justification is without merit as well, since you have provided no support that History Matters meets Wiki's criteria for being fringe. You're just wasting everyone's time with this. Tomorrow, when I have the chance, I will simply supply another source for the verbatim Garrison trial testimony that was sourced to History Matters. Hope you like wasting our time... BrandonTRA (talk) 23:53, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Just because someone or some site alleges a conspiracy in the case of the JFK assassination does make them FRINGE, nor does it meet Wiki's criteria of FRINGE. Many of those who have held power in the U.S. have alleged a JFK conspiracy, including the government body, the House Select Committee on Assassinations, which alleged a Mafia conspiracy, as well as President Lyndon Johnson who alleged a JFK conspiracy involving Khrushchev and/or Castro. It is perfectly OK and within Wiki guidelines to cite sources alleging conspiracy. BrandonTRA (talk) 00:16, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Please, assume good faith in these exchanges. Do not assume I'm changing my argument, I am rather making more than one argument. Do not assume I'm saying we should not discuss the existence of a conspiracy theory, I am saying no such thing. We, however, need to use reliable sources to do so.

Yes, please replace the source when you get a chance. We can put such statements in the article, when worded in an WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE compliant fashion, I would never say otherwise. But we must do so using sources which meet WP:RS and not in-universe WP:FRINGE sources. The pertinent directly RS-related guideline would be WP:QUESTIONABLE and WP:RSOPINION. For all the reasons I listed above. But both WP:FRINGE and WP:RSOPINION apply here. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 03:28, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I just noticed that the AARC is actually a sub-organization of History-matters: "The JFK Assassination Archive disk and other AARC electronic document products are developed by History Matters. Visit our website: www.history-matters.com for more information and to order"

This would mean the citation was not actually replaced, just pointed towards a different website run by the same group of people who are, as described above, likely not a reliable source. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 05:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

If you go to the main page on the JFK assassination -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_John_F._Kennedy -- you'll see that history-matters.org is referenced several times. So your opinion that this is a fringe site is merely your own. BrandonTRA (talk) 21:42, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

The wiki is not perfect, so the existence of something somewhere else does not mean the use of it here is within policy. Wikipedia does not work like a court of law, and there are no "precedents" by extant text. It probably shouldn't be referenced there either, but it doesn't matter in most cases. But it especially should not be used to support any fringe view statement. Which is the actual issue here, not the source itself, but that it is being used to advance a fringe perspective without description of the mainstream consensus as is required by WP:FRINGE. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 03:04, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Fox News

Fox News is not a reliable source in regard to either politics or science (see: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) -- non- WP:RS. In accordance, I have removed Fox News citations. BrandonTRA (talk) 05:50, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Why would you duplicate this section?

Regardless, here's my reply from above:

WASA Fox10news is a local fox affiliate, as described above. It is an independent news organization affiliated with but operated independently from the national media channel Fox News. Fox affiliate citations are handled differently from typical fox news citations. Please read the WP:RSP entry more carefully. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 23:10, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Local news channels affiliated with fake national news channels like Fox News (see: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) can not be assumed to be totally independent of their distributor, national media channel. They are inherently tainted and should not be used as reliable sources. -- WP:RSN -- BrandonTRA (talk) 01:56, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

That's not what WP:RSP says at all. It says: "Local Fox affiliates are considered distinct from Fox News, and are covered by WP:NEWSORG."[1] — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 03:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Fox News is NOT an “unreliable” news channel. It reliably, as I’ve stated before, presents a conservative interpretation of current events. It is the only mainstream news channel which does not parrot the liberal cant. The left cannot tolerate this. Liberal commentators and their toadies (eg, commenters on this page) therefore assault Fox News by vile calumnies imputing the integrity of their journalism. The Left simply tolerates no dissent, being at heart a totalitarian, autocratic and oppressive mentality.98.183.25.236 (talk) 17:05, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Removal of UNDUE material

@BrandonTRA I removed the material in question because it is based solely on WP:PRIMARY sources, and therefore has no demonstration of being WP:DUE.

Per DUE, "avoiding undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects....Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements.... Giving undue weight to the view of a significant minority or including that of a tiny minority might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute."

We have no demonstration that this material is DUE, as we do not have it represented in secondary independent reliable sources as characterized in WP:RS. A secondary independent source means completely separated from the subject matter, so these transcripts of the commission proceedings etc. do not count. Those are WP:PRIMARY sources and are not part of determining whether material is WP:DUE. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:48, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

You have deleted entire paragraphs with many citations -- containing both primary and secondary sources. You need to be specific as to what sources you feel are given undue weight, and why. BrandonTRA (talk) 16:57, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

No primary sources should be cited about fringe beliefs. AARClibrary.org and history-matters.org are fringe sites which are hosting primary documents from the warren commission. These primary documents do not show us that these materials are WP:DUE. We need independent reliable secondary (preferably scholarly) sources for that. We cannot simply cite primary sources and put that information on this article. We are interpreting these details as relevant and important to the narrative, important enough to be included here. To do so indiscriminately is a violation of WP:DUE. The logical conclusion would be that we should describe every single moment of the Warren commission in detail. And that, of course, would be ridiculous and unencyclopedic. Hence why DUE exists as a guideline. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 19:19, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

If you go to the main page on the JFK assassination -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_John_F._Kennedy -- you'll see that both AARClibrary.org and history-matters.org are referenced several times. So your opinion that these are fringe sites are merely your own. BrandonTRA (talk) 17:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on the sites, but their use in this disputed content was as hosts of primary documents. Hosting the documents doesn't make the sites secondary sources. Shibbolethink is right to question whether this content is due. If reliable, secondary sources are making the kinds of analysis the disputed content does and highlight the same parts of the primary documents , we should cite them. Firefangledfeathers 18:30, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

You're changing your story. Here is what you said before regarding History Matters: "One need not look much farther for evidence of this website's non-reliability than its front page." (see above) BrandonTRA (talk) 18:55, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Are you confusing me with Shibbolethink? I'm flattered. Firefangledfeathers 20:56, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Prayer Man Advocates Entered Seriously Flawed Information In "Role Of Oswald" Section

There is a group of organized persons out of the "ReOpenKennedyCase" website who are entering seriously mis-referenced material in Kennedy Assassination Wikipedia articles in order to spin content in favor of their claim that Oswald was seen as "Prayer Man" on the front steps of the Depository during the assassination...They did it in this article in the "Role Of Oswald" section in the following quote: " When asked to account for himself at the time of the assassination, Oswald claimed that he “went outside to watch P. Parade” (referring to the presidential motorcade), and was “out with [William Shelley, a foreman at the depository] in front”,[230] and that he was at the “front entrance to the first floor” when he encountered a policeman.[231] Initially, Texas School Book Depository superintendent Roy Truly and Occhus Campbell, the Depository vice president, said they saw Oswald in the first floor storage room at the time of the shooting. Some researchers, including Stan Dane, theorize that a man who was filmed standing on the Depository front steps during the assassination, referred to as "prayer man", is Oswald. "... The entry's author footnoted the quotes from Mary Ferrell and the Warren Commission Volumes in order to hide their true "ReOpenKennedyCase" source...The last footnote from Stan Dane's "Prayer Man" book is the true source and also the source of the entry author's bias...Because of its esoteric nature in Kennedy research the public who reads this entry will not immediately detect its faux scholarship and intent...The references to "out with Bill Shelley in front" and "went outside to watch the Presidential Parade" have already been proven to be 5 minutes after the assassination according to other information included in those same references but omitted by the entry's author...The quote [he was at the “front entrance to the first floor” when he encountered a policeman.] is a straight bastardization of Harry Holmes describing a second stopping of Oswald at the front door 5 minutes after the shots after he had come down from being stopped by Officer Baker in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...The entry is dishonestly trying to infer this quote by Postal Inspector Harry Holmes was saying Oswald was Prayer Man on the front steps...Its writer omits Holmes saying "Oswald had come downstairs to see what the commotion was all about" right before the quoted part...Typical of the Prayer Man group the following quote is just outright false and intentionally so: "Occhus Campbell, the Depository vice president, said they saw Oswald in the first floor storage room at the time of the shooting"...If you check Campbell's real statement he clearly said that he went to the Grassy Knoll from the front steps after the shooting and minutes later when he returned to the Lobby he saw Oswald hiding in the Storage Room (Source: Occhus Campbell Warren Commission Statement)...The entry writer is being intentionally inaccurate in both his writing and sources and is trying to spin the evidence in the direction of Prayer Man by means of distorted quotes, omissions, and false references... 2601:6C3:4000:C5C0:55D3:2BB3:1672:2625 (talk) 18:04, 11 June 2022 (UTC)