Talk:Nu metal

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Aggressive rock

ur moms a man I've heard that aggressive rock is the technical term for nu-metal (also as aggro-rock), but I haven't found any other site besides wiki that even mentions the genre in detail. What is it/is it relevant/should it be added or mentioned here?

Well, if there's no other source verifying the use of the term, I'd say nothing is relevant and nothing should be added or mentioned. -Unknownwarrior33 19:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Is a band like Incubus or Linkin Park really all that aggressive? The bands aren't metal either for the most part, most of them are just hard rock.Theunknown42 01:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Linkin Park is aggressive vocally, along with having LOUD PARTS, and is Incubus even nu-metal?

I'd say Incubus are nu metal, and I like them. They thank Korn in the liner notes for Afungus Amongus and S.C.I.E.N.C.E., so I think that's a fair indication they're nu metal. Certainly a little more on the progressive/creative side, and with some clear ska/skate-punk/funkcore influences, but definitely nu metal on their early work. As for being aggressive, no, not really. And Linkin Park is angsty most of the time, not really aggressive. --Switch 16:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Precisely, Linkin Park's music features also RAP VOCALS (umpf!)! -- Egr (talk), 10/20/2006

JUST WANT TO DROP A couple of pennies in here - I am heavily influenced by Smashing Pumpkins and Pixies. My music winds up sounding bluesy/folksy. An artist cited as an influence DOES NOT equal the citing artist being in the same, or even similar, genre. Chino Moreno has cited Weezer as one of his influences (not to mention The Cure, Duran Duran, and Depeche Mode) *[see http://www.mysticgames.com/famouspeople/ChinoMoreno.htm, at least, but I've heard it/read it in other places too]. Listen to Wilco, they have a song in which the lyrics reminisce about "playing Kiss covers..." [Heavy Metal Drummer, from "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot"]. Kiss is also cited as one of Weezer's infuences at http://www.albany.edu/~nk2352/zine/Noelle.htm (and in their song lyrics on the "Blue Album" - I forget which song). Cheap Trick is mentioned on that same site as a Weezer influence. Does that put Weezer, Cheap Trick, Wilco, Kiss, and the Deftones in the same genre - or any of the same genres, for that matter? Na-ah...

archive?

this is a very long talk page... and btw, there's alot of side comments on nu metal which have nothing to do with this article... if we want to include views and opinions on nu metal, we should be finding magazine articles and artist quotes that give solid proof that some people think this, or others think that. just scanning thru this talk page, i dont theres much productivity... Blueaster 02:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Archived to prevent the unnessecary chatter down to a minimum. — Moe Epsilon 04:16 September 13 '06

"It also has some sonic similarity with death metal"

Totally untrue, POV, and vague statement.... Death metal consists of double bass/blastbeats, extremely fast rhythm guitar and bass, death grunt/growled vocals. Nu-metal (as the article states) consists of 4/4 drumbeats or synthetic beats, guitar and bass with influences from rap, funk, or grunge, and usually rapped, screamed, or monotone vocals. Fans and bands of both genres usually want nothing to do with one another. The article thus contradicts itself big time with any mention of death metal. Each time this obviously questionable bit is removed, it is put back in. Why? Would someone mind explaining? Or is the comparison just an "inside joke"? --Danteferno 18:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Copied from your talk page:

As this has been discussed already, I'll try to be simple:

• As the link shows, a citation has been made by WesleyDodds.
• Fear Factory are a death metal band often labelled as nu metal, and are a major influence on nu metal. Other death metal bands, such as Sepultura and Slayer, have been cited as influences on nu metal by nu metal bands or musical commentators.

Fear Factory were only briefly death metal, as were Sepultura; Slayer are thrash, not death metal, and none of above explains how the nu-metal genre has "sonic similarity" to death metal.

• Static-X are a nu metal band often labelled as death metal.

Cite your sources, please.

• Korn cite Cannibal Corpse, a death metal band, as an influence.

Again, cite your sources, please.

• Apart from these links, the sonic similarity between guitar styles (if not musicianship) of nu metal and death metal is very prevalent.

This is not the first time you have tried to remove any mention of "death metal" from the nu metal article, and when one attempt is stopped, you convert to another reason to make the same edit. Your clear bias has no place in the article. --Switch 19:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

You haven't proved anything. You stated that Fear Factory started as death metal, you made an unsourced claim of a nu-metal band being called death metal, and then another unsourced claim of a nu-metal band citing a death metal band as an influence. Whether these are true or not, you have not explained the "death metal" sonic similarity nu-metal has. This: "the sonic similarity between guitar styles (if not musicianship) of nu metal and death metal is very prevalent." explains nothing and is obviously POV. I'm not pushing "bias" in the article, only defending fact. And death metal having sonic similarity with nu-metal is not fact. BTW, the only persons who kept the "death metal sonic similarity" connection in were you and WesleyDodds (who never answered the points made). The previous user who reverted the edit did so only because he didn't agree with the edit summary [1], and an earlier user who reverted this edit is now perm. banned from Wikipedia. (Ironically, the banned user did not cite any sources to the edits he made.) --Danteferno 22:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

According to most critics, Fear Factory's music is still based firmly in death metal, apart from their last two albums, but with industrial elements. They still tour mostly with death bands supporting. You can check their own article, or their official website, or their reviews on Amazon, or their MTV area, or thei Allmusic biography. All describe the band as fusing electronic/industrial influences with death metal. Sepultura, similarly, started infusing alternate influences, but for most of their career, kept their music rooted in death metal. Slayer, while not technically death, are considered the starting point for the genre.

Static-X are called "death metal", or described as a fusion between death and some form of electronic music, mostly disco, on Amazon (Wisconsin death trip), RateYourMusic, this, and the frontman himself has said their current sound is a "culmination of every type of genre I have ever done", "from acoustic songs to speed metal/death metal stuff".

Korn cited Cannibal Corpse as an influence on the episode of Rage they guest programmed, and played one of their videos. It has been reported by other users that they did the same on Headbanger's Ball, though I wouldn't know personally.

Anyway, I don't know where that citation went, but there was a citation up there at one point. I'll try to dig it up, but that stuff isn't easy.

Please note that Korn's song "Ball Tongue" (Ball Tongue (song) main riff is directly ripped from a death metal song Korn (album) {please view the links wich contain this info}

Why is Tool mentioned on this page?!?

Tool does not belong on this page. Tool and many of their fans take serious offense to being grouped into this category. It is not appropriate.

The article doesn't say they're nu metal. It says they influenced nu metal, which they did. --Switch 11:15, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is Stuck Mojo not mentioned?

They pioneered this fuckin genre when everyone else was still in nappies!

I've never heard of them. Are they nu metal? Or od they more properly belong in the alternative metal category? Nu metal isn't generally thought to have started until the early-mid nineties with Korn and Deftones. I have never heard them, but maybe someone else here has. --Switch 11:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Precisely, Stuck Mojo are rapcore, not nu metal. They were among the first acts to fuse rap and metal, but can't jump into nu metal because they have come way before. --Egr 20:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S.:I'm convincing that "nu metal" doesn't exist, and has been invented by hip hop detractors.

Deftones

Anon. user with IP 69.141.3.45 keeps removing any references to Deftones from the article. As they were one of the earliest formed bands (forming in 1992) to become one of the bigger nu metal groups, and are almost universally considered nu metal (at least their early work) - stop it.

Deftones were a nu metal band. A very prominent one, almost synonymous with the genre, and as far as I know, the earliest. Either the anon loves them and wants them to be distanced from the term "nu metal" or hates them and wants them removed from any and all articles, but I don't care. Stop adding your bias to the article.

If you persist, action can be taken to have you banned from editing this article. --Switch 10:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Can someone do something about this guy. He is also deleting the Deftones references to the mallcore article. While the band list is obnoxious (And I have added a few bands as well), they are a nu metal/"mallcore" band. If bands like Fear Factory and Tool can be put on that list and kept there, there is no reason why the Deftones should get special treatment.Outlaw-Viper 03:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

He is also removing the statement that Deftones helped instigate nu metal from the alternative metal article. If anyone has a book on nu metal, that would be a big help. I thought it wouldn't be an issue, but he's claiming POV for associating Deftones with nu metal in any way at all. We're going to have to find a credible source - probably a book - and give proper citations. --Switch 03:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the anon, though. Nu-metal is obviously some loose, derisive term/label, not an actually genre. It is not even included in Allmusic.com as a genre. Just look at the guidelines for "nu metal." Right at the beginning, it basically states that there ARE NO guidelines. Your so-called "Nu metal" includes everything from Limp Bizkit to Disturbed to Static-X, but really, none of these bands sound alike. And obviously hip hop influences are not a defining factor, since plenty of supposed "nu metal" bands have no hip hop influences (not to mention the fact that there is already a genre called rapcore.) So what is nu metal? Can anyone tell me? I'm NOT a fan of any of the bands that are on this page, but I am a fan of the Deftones. And I must say, you have to be some one who has never heard the Deftones and goes only on vague assumptions to even associate them with most of the bands cited as "nu metal." Limp Bizkit? Linkin Park? No way, they sound NOTHING like any of these bands. The Deftones started in 1988, experimenting with different sounds before even such "esteemed" bands as Rage Against the Machine were formed (Who, by the way, are never referred to as nu metal, but sounded similar to many artists you term as "nu metal" and had great influences on the supposed "genre") So if RATM can get away with simply being mentioned as an influence, why can't the Deftones. Just because they were touring friends with Korn does not make a band "nu metal." Look at most real reviews by real critics, and they will most likely state that Deftones are "experimental," "not nu metal", or "above nu metal." But yes, they should indeed be mention as an influence on "nu metal," since they have influenced many of the bands you label "nu-metal." Oh, and what the hell is mallcore? People need to get a life and stop making up stupid genres with which they clump bands they have never even heard. How are the Deftones (or even Tool) mallcore? Tool is a little cliche at times, but hardly for little teenage girls and mallrats. And I have never even heard of a mallgoth listening to the Deftones. Linkin Park and Evanescence, yes, but not the Deftones. Regardless, this is all opinion and observation, but it is also the opinion of countless music critics. "Mallcore." Ha! I'm not defending any of the bands on the mallcore page, because I am not a fan of any of them. But seriously, what makes you think your "fav band" is any better? You think you're "alternative?" You think you're "hardcore?" No, you are an elitist. - Callmarcus 31 October 2006

"Nu-metal is obviously some loose, derisive term/label, not an actually genre. It is not even included in Allmusic.com as a genre."

Actually, it is a genre. It was obviously not derisive back in the late nineties when bands were calling themselves "nu metal", and when the term was being used to hype acts by record labels. It became derisive because it was a trend, in much the same way as "emo" is now derisive and no-one wants their favourite bands to be called that either. "Nu metal" is also considered a small subgenre on allmusic (Which by the way is not a good source); read their page on "Alternative metal". While you're at it, read the Wikipedia article on it too; it makes clear what nu metal is.

"The Deftones started in 1988, experimenting with different sounds before even such "esteemed" bands as Rage Against the Machine were formed..."

Rage were part of the LA alternative scene that largely influenced nu metal, including Jane's Addiction, RHCP, et cetera. Those bands were alternative rock and alternative metal, not nu metal. Deftones were one of the bands influenced by that scene that started making heavy alternative music with a combination of those influences - hey, that's what nu metal is.

"Just because they were touring friends with Korn does not make a band "nu metal." Look at most real reviews by real critics, and they will most likely state that Deftones are "experimental," "not nu metal", or "above nu metal.""

You a young one? Nu metal was not a derisive term when Deftones started getting mainstream attention. All this bollocks about "above nu metal" is revisionism; a lot of nu metal releases won critical acclaim (including those by Deftones). If you remember back to the late nineties, a lot of bands were "nu metal" and didn't reject the term; some openly embraced it. I remember Deftones being placed cleanly in the nu metal category without any difficulty. There are also plenty of nu metal bands with experimental, talented music; (həd) pe in their early days, Slipknot, Mudvayne and others, though I don't like them, are talented, original musicians. Are they "above" nu metal too? What about Korn? They were certainly innovative, so does that make them "above" nu metal?

"And I have never even heard of a mallgoth listening to the Deftones."

I have. I wouldn't call them "mallcore", whatever that exactly means, but they were certainly trendy enough to have everyone listening to them a while ago. So were Tool, who are also not "mallcore". I don't love the Deftones a whole lot, but they're in no way a bad band and I quite like some of their work.

"You think you're "alternative?" You think you're "hardcore?" No, you are an elitist."

Well, I do listen to a lot of alternative rock, so I guess you could say I'm "alternative". I listen to punk too, and I have a Black Flag patch on my jacket, so I guess you could even say I'm "hardcore". Generally I don't have a genre bias, I just like the music that I like. As for being an elitist, I'm pretty open on the classification of punk rock, certainly being one of the less elitist people on that genre. I should probably remind you not to make any personal attacks.

The point is, nu metal has become a derisive term and people will retaliate when a band they like is labelled with it. You admit it yourself; you don't like nu metal bands, but you like Deftones. That's your personal bias affecting the article. You've also said you've never heard a critic call Rage nu metal. Well, I have heard critics refer to Deftones as nu metal (even if they do say things like "by far one of the better nu metal bands"), very often back in the day. Deftones are very widely considered a nu metal band, but their fans will retaliate and exclude them, just like Slipknot, həd (pe), Mudvayne, Disturbed and countless others. Despite what their fans say (usually that the bands are "better than nu metal", "talented so they're not nu metal" etc. - shock!), these bands were almost universally considered nu metal before the term became an insult. --Switch 04:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

If you need more evidence, I googled Deftones "nu metal". The results are kind of in favour of Deftones being nu metal. See here: Deftones are considered nu metal above Limp Bizkit. Deftones and White Pony are tagged as nu metal above some of Korn's albums. The list isn't perfect, with a lot of alt. metal making the list, but they tend to be a lot lower. here a critic says "There are also a couple Nu-Metal bands that really aren't that bad, namely, Deftones" - a statement typical of critics' views of the band. Here we get "Deftones are nu-metal, they're just *shock, horror* good nu-metal". This site has Defs listed under "nu metal" even as a commercial site! "Bands that can be categorized under the guise of nu metal include Korn, Deftones, Slipknot, Incubus, Linkin Park, Limp Bizkit..." comes from this page, where they're listed as prime examples. Another commercial site also lists Defs as nu metal. In fact, apart from Wikipedia (which says that a certain critic says other critics "reserve a special place for Deftones above or at least away from the rest of the turn-of-the-century nu metal", implying they are nu metal but people don't like to admit it), ALL the sites on the first page describe Defs as a nu metal band. If that's anything to go by, seeing as there are 233,000 pages, they are nu metal. We haven't had a single "not nu metal" or "above nu metal" yet.

Further, A specific search for Deftones "not nu metal" yielded under 300 Ghits. Deftones "above nu metal", Deftones "superior to nu metal" and Deftones "better than nu metal" got only 15 hits between them, most not even referring to Deftones when they said the specific phrase, but saying efs are nu metal once again. (eg. "Nu-metal isnt that bad ,I actually like the deftones first 2 albums, I also like... ... ...metal is in fact 99.9999999% superior to nu metal."). Your claim that Deftones are not mu netal instigators is not supported by the facts. --Switch 04:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I was not personally attacking you. Sorry if you took it that way. I was addressing anyone who felt the need to lump bands in derisive genres, such as mallcore. I agree with some of the things you say. However, how is something on amazon.com created by a user and NOT a critic more important than something on Allmusic.com created by a critic (or Rolling Stone for that matter, who have also stated that the Deftones are unlike most turn-of-the-century metal bands. I'm not a big fan of Rolling Stone, but that's not the point)? I am not insane enough to deny that they have a significant influence on what people consider "nu metal," but I don't really think they should be labeled as "instigators." Regardless of what some kids on the internet say (or what you and I think), the Deftones have been making music before the nu metal boom, and most of this music sounds very little like anything a stereotypical "nu metal" band creates. - Callmarcus 5 November

I was going to say that no, I wasn't offended, but sometimes you have to be careful on Wikipedia, and I think a music fan's opinion is as valid as a critic's, sometimes more so, but I've tried to type this several times over the past few days, so I'm not going into much detail now. I'm just going to point out, Cleveland scene, SeattlePi, Sputnik music, Ringsurf and Silver Dragon records cite Defs as "nu metal" in just the first two pages of a Google search. As far as I can see, the vast majority of sources are describing Deftones as a nu metal (or nu-metal, or numetal, or nü metal, etc.) band, whether you want stringent criteria for reliability or not. Either way, they belong on the list of bands who instigated the genre. Some people don't want them to be called nu metal, but the same can be said for almost every other band that has ever been called nu metal. They should be mentioned in the list of instigators as much as the others should. --Switch 12:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The Deftones were as much an inspiration for "Nu metal" bands that they can be lumped with Korn, RAtM, Tool, and Fear Factory as "Nu Metal Inspirators." While I don't think nu metal is metal or a genre at all, I also don't think it is "mallcore." Mallcore came about as an insult name for nu metal because metalheads don't think its metal. In recent times however, some of them believe it to be the "true" name for nu metal with no explanation other than the fact that there isn't anything better to call it. The Deftones are heavy alternative rock like Korn, Limp Bizkit, Mudvayne, Slipknot, Disturbed, Static-X, Sevendust, and P.O.D. This heavy alternative rock gained popularity and was mislabed "Nu Metal" by the mainstream. In recent times metalheads want nothing to do with the genre and neither do alternative rock fans. If you have seen the mallcore talk page I don't think the band list should be there, but since it will remain, there are people who think the Deftones are "mallcore" along with bands like Fear Factory, Tool, Limp Bizkit, and P.O.D.(Bands that shouldn't even be on that list).Outlaw-Viper 01:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

SOAD

Why is the music described as almost always containing rap elements, but System of a down is a front leader in the genre? They have no such element, but are some of the best known as Nu Metal.

Well, many people do not consider SOAD nu metal, and most nu metal bands do have rap elements. -Switch ^t 07:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Nu-Metal doesn't mean rap+metal/rock. If that were the case the only nu-metal bands would be Limp Bizkit, POD, Linkin Park and Crazy Town. Most Nu-Metal is groove oriented and rhythmic, and outside of some bands not very technical. The reason SOAD is considered nu-metal is because in the metal community they're not considered "metal" enough and nu-metal is the "best" label.Outlaw-Viper 11:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

That's irrelevant. Even if it isn't integral to the genre, most nu metal bands do have hip hop elements. Including Korn, Mudvayne, (hed) PE, and others, not just "Limp Bizkit, POD, Linkin Park and Crazy Town." More, if nu metal only meant "rap+metal/rock", the Beastie Boys, Anthrax, Everlast and many, many other bands would be "nu metal" though they aren't. SOAD are widely not considered nu metal, and what the metal community thinks is largely irrelevant. They don't play traditional metal, so I don't see why the metal community would be the best judge of their genre. Most music critics have them pegged as hard rock, alternative metal, experimental rock, even progressive rock and various other things. Regardless of whether SOAD are nu metal, most bands do have rap elements, just as the article says. -Switch ^t 12:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I consider SOAD a nu metal band not because of what the metal community thinks, but due to the fact there is not a lot of cohesion in the genre, it almost as if anything goes. Also, "rap elements" needs to be defined more. Most Limp Bizkit songs do not sound like hip-hop so an explanation of these "elements" needs to be done. It also needs to be said that funk is more vital to the genre rather than rap. A nu-metal bands success rides on the talents of the bassist and drummer, although there are exceptions to this rule. Also I don't give a damn what the metal community thinks because outside of metal they know very little of other music genres. It seems nowadays the term nu-metal means almost anything anybody wants it to mean within reason.Outlaw-Viper 00:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

As harsh as it sounds...

I think that the criticism section should have a little more to it, since this is one of music's most ridiculed genres in recent years, yet there are just a few sentences in the article.Adamravenscroft 14:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree personally, but almost as soon as nu metal stopped beeing 'cool', people stopped writing about it. I think if we can find some sources, it should be fleshed out a lot more, but there's not much on it we can use apart from the MTV article already in there. -Switch ^t 11:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that the reason this particular genre has come under such scrutiny is mainly to do with the enormous cultural differences, which is a huge factor in today's society. While you could say the majority of people may like Hip-hop and Pop, there is still that everlasting rock fan group, regardless of the "ridicule", that has been given only from people who are interested in different music genres.

Wouldn't it be more useful to figure out why the genre is ridiculed and who exactly is ridiculing it? Is it the mix of genres and influences drawing more critics than would normally pay attention? It "seems" to be universally ridiculed but different groups probably have different reasons for ridiculing the genre. The genre is not exactly a "purists paradise" so that might be one reason.Outlaw-Viper 07:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

people make fun of the genre because it sucks and it gives a bad name to real metal. most of the people who listen to nu metal are mall goths. isn't that common knowledge? TightKid 06:43 pm, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Saying something "sucks" and it gives a bad name to "real metal" and mainly mallgoths listen to it needs proof, no? The genre has mostly died out with the "true metal revival" and the prominence of other genres. If you were to seriously think about this you would see your assumptions are for the most part incorrect, seeing as a mallgoth would probably be more apt to listen to Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth, or any number of "true metal" bands before they would listen to Limp Bizkit or POD.Outlaw-Viper 10:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

first of all, dimmu and cradle are seen as very mainstream and frowned upon in the metal community, cradle of filth more so than dimmu borgir. while there has been a bit of a true metal revival, it hasn't been big enough to hit mtv. i think that nu metal's huge popularity has been replaced by metalcore. when you start seeing faggoths wearing trivium shirts instead of korn shirts, you know that's happened. TightKid 03:36 pm, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

POV/verify issues in criticism section

I've placed both tags on the criticism section, as right now, it reads like OR, and a slanted OR at that. To wit, the following statements lack any verification:

• The mix of styles led to some criticism that nu metal was no longer related to traditional metal.
• Rap is often used in nu metal, and fans of mainstream rap didn't always respond well to it.
• In recent times the genre has received increasing derision from the metal community for various reasons
• and the term "mallcore" is used by many as a term for insult and as well as a synonym by some for the genre, believing it to be the "true" name for the genre.
• The term "False Metal" is also used with the slogan "Death to False Metal" as a type of battlecry.
• Categorization of specific artists as "nu metal" is difficult, an issue made more prevalent in the online community by traditional metal fans who take offense to the term.

The frequent use of "some" and reference to unspecified critics is classic weasel-wording to try to get around POV and verification requirements. A criticism section is fine, but it should contain cited comments from actual music critics or other recognized experts, not "Some fans say..." commentary. | Mr. Darcy talk 19:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an official editor or anything, but hopefully I can offer some advice to make it more neutral. For one thing, metal-archives.com, the massive on-line catalog of all metal bands, past and present, does not contain any entries for any nu-metal bands. And, in the section where they outline what types of bands should not be submitted, refers to the genre as "mallcore." As for the general criticism and the idea that it's not related to actual metal, these ideas are sort of "common knowledge" among metal fans, so I'm not sure there's a single source that you can refer to citing this, but there are tons of articles on other web pages and message boards that show that this attitude and criticism exists (for example, the "mallcore" entry on urbandictionary.com or http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/junkyard/131_ways_to_tell_if_you_are_a_mallcore_kid.html). I don't mean to say these sorts of things should be used as de facto proof that the criticisms are true, just that they, and the "increasing derision," exist. As far as facts to actually back up the clains, the aforementioned absence of any of these bands from the metal archives is actually pretty strong evidence. In addition, there's the fact that the nu-metal sound emphasizes attitude while anything considered to be true metal emphasizes musicianship and technicality (admittedly, I can't think of any way to cite this). 69.204.98.242 21:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree slightly with your last statement - doom metal, for example, and a lot of early bands like Led Zep and Sabbath put a lot of emphasis on mood and atmosphere as well as musicianship. But it is true that nu metal is probably more musically akin to hip hop and punk than "metal" in the traditional and more accurate sense. Nu metal generally is very simple to play and the vocals play a large part, even in the more experimental bands of the genre. But citations for this kind of thing are hard to find, because no one writes it, because everyone knows it. But Wikipedia won't accept that. ~Switch ^t 15:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• Despite the subjectivity of the topic, I think it's worth mentioning that the genre has received a lot of criticism from within the metal genre itself. Many other metal bands actually ARE very outspoken against nu-metal, saying it's "fake" or that the bands "cashed in" to the popularity of the sound and that they all sound the same. Just because the people who say it aren't being objective, doesn't mean we can't be objective about putting it into the entry. 74.70.171.36 01:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Article Structure

When I was reading the article, I thought that everything between the second paragraph and the contents box should be given its own "Origins" paragraph right after the contents. Looking at the history section this was the case at one time and was changed for some reason. I quite like the in house Wikipedia format style of: introduction, contents, main article. I just wondered why it was decided against in this article. ClarenceAtomkraft 17:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Constant edit wars

Can someone please stop this edit war between Inhumer and some annonymous guy in the paragraph that talks about Korn. The sentece is constantly modified with "death and thrash metal bands" and then with "thrash metal bands" and on and on... --Dexter_prog (talk • contribs • count) @ 23:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

== A propisition for the edit wars ==

This is fairly straight-forward: ban him. He does nothing but vandalize and has no place on Wikipedia. Until he's planned, I think there should be some sort of unofficial group that reverts every one of his edits. I'll join, Inhumer's pretty much in there by default.

I don't know the procedure for banning someone, if anyone has any pointers I'll gladly nominate him. He's vandalized my user page before. Ours18 20:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Add the Hip-Hop external link...thing..

I'm not sure of wording, but it is considered a part of the Hip-Hop family as well as the Metal, so why not throw it in there for good measure? Qubeh 12:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Rapcore merge

Every time rapcore has been added to Template:Heavymetal it has been removed with no apparent reason other than 'nu metal sufficiently covers rapcore'. If this is the case, rapcore should be merged into this article as it is superfluous. --90.240.102.48 20:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)