Talk:Ancient Macedonians

Herodotus

I would like this specification to be added in regards to the verse 7.130.3 of Herodotus histories in the section about the identity of ancient Macedonians. " Nevertheless, in regards to the previous statement it should be noted that the ancient Greek used here is "ἔδοσαν ἑωυτοὺς βασιλέι" which is best translated as "gave themselves to the king" (histories 7.30.3). In verses following this statement (histories 7.32.1-2) the act of giving yourself to the enemy by your own will seems to be presented as treason: "Among those who paid that tribute were the Thessalians, Dolopes, Enienes, Perrhaebians, Locrians, Magnesians, Melians, Achaeans of Phthia, Thebans, and all the Boeotians except the men of Thespiae and Plataea.[2] Against all of these the Greeks who declared war with the foreigner entered into a sworn agreement, which was this: that if they should be victorious, they would dedicate to the god of Delphi the possessions of all Greeks who had of free will surrendered themselves to the Persians. Such was the agreement sworn by the Greeks.", the word "δοκέω" (give) is also used in these verses "ὅσοι τῷ Πέρσῃ ἔδοσαν σφέας αὐτοὺς Ἕλληνες ἐόντες μὴ ἀναγκασθέντες" ("those Greeks who gave themselves to the Persian without being forced to")." Anyone with knowledge of ancient Greek can understand make their comments on that specification so I would like them to make their suggestions on its addition instead of people who can not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aeolic order (talk • contribs) 09:59, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

First, please read WP:NOR. We don't insert our own arguments and analyses into articles. As long as you don't have a reference to a reputable historian actually making this argument, this will stay out.

Second, the whole point is irrelevant. Nothing in the paragraph in question hinges on the implications of the verb used for "submitted", so it's quite unclear what you're even arguing about. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:41, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Also in regards to Herodotus' position on the Greekness of the Macedonians I would like this verse to be considered: "1 αὗται μὲν ὦν σφι πρόσχημα ἦσαν τοῦ στόλου· ἀτὰρ ἐν νόῳ ἔχοντες ὅσας ἂν πλείστας δύνωνται καταστρέφεσθαι τῶν Ἑλληνίδων πολίων, τοῦτο μὲν δὴ τῇσι νηυσὶ Θασίους οὐδὲ χεῖρας ἀνταειραμένους κατεστρέψαντο, τοῦτο δὲ τῷ πεζῷ Μακεδόνας πρὸς τοῖσι ὑπάρχουσι δούλους προσεκτήσαντο· τὰ γὰρ ἐντὸς Μακεδόνων ἔθνεα πάντα σφι ἦν ἤδη ὑποχείρια γεγονότα." Here Herodotus seems to give examples of how the Persians went about destroying Greek cities and he says that on the one hand, with the navy, they destroyed the thasians and on the other, with the infantry, they enslaved the Macedonians. Aeolic order (talk) 10:44, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Verse 6.44.1 Aeolic order (talk) 10:45, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

This is by Herodotus, the only problem is that you cannot understand what is being said, that is why I am asking someone who knows ancient Greek to comment on this addition Aeolic order (talk) 10:52, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

It does hinge on the implications on the verb used, and that verb is "δοκέω". If you read the edit it seems like the Thessalians were the first to commit an act of treason. That is quite different from being subjugated to the foreign king because it is done through your own choice. The whole claim about the implications of this verse is that if the Thessalians were the first Greekd to succumb to the invader then the preceding Macedonians were not Greeks Aeolic order (talk) 10:57, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Μην κρίνεις εξ ιδίων τα αλλότρια, παιδί μου. But anyway, you've still not grasped the basic point here. This isn't a debating club. Provide sources from the secondary literature. It's not our job to "consider" stuff just because you would like us to. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:06, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

This is a talk page and talk pages have to do with discussion. I am providing sources from the literature itself. Of course I am gonna Judge from the "same" the "others" because the "others" are mingling with the "same". I agree that it is not your job to "consider" because you cannot "consider" right now

Aeolic order (talk) 11:14, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Also regarding original research the rules have this to say

=== Translations and transcriptions ===

Faithfully translating sourced material into English, or transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research. For information on how to handle sources that require translation, see WP:Verifiability § Non-English sources. Aeolic order (talk) 13:12, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

And regarding citations of non-English sources this is stated:

====Citing====

Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia. However, because this project is in English, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when they're available and of equal quality and relevance. As with sources in English, if a dispute arises involving a citation to a non-English source, editors may request a quotation of relevant portions of the original source be provided, either in text, in a footnote, or on the article talk page. (See Template:Request quotation.)

I have provided rekevant portions of the original source Aeolic order (talk) 13:16, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Relevant Aeolic order (talk) 13:17, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

But you are of course not just "faithfully translating sourced material". You are using that material in order to advance an argument. That's why you're saying "… in regards to the previous statement it should be noted that …". It's that argument that you'd need sourcing for. A published work by a modern historian who uses these observations on Herodot for the exact same purpose that you are trying to use them for, i.e. invalidating the preceding argument that's sourced to Hall. Of course you don't have such a source. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:40, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Why did you revise this edit? This is not regarding the Thessalians. This is a direct quotation of Herodotus and I clearly cite where it is found. Aeolic order (talk) 16:56, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

And you still haven't cited a secondary source. You are not listening at all, are you? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:59, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

If you think the translation in this case was not faithfully translated please state where it was lacking Aeolic order (talk) 16:59, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

What secondary source? This was a direct quotation from the original source. Can you read Greek? Aeolic order (talk) 17:01, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

How often do you need this spelled out to you before you get the point? In order to have anything inserted here, you need to cite a reputable modern historian who proposes the very same argument you are trying to make. You cannot just insert stuff from a primary source; what you need to source is the interpretation of that primary material. In this case, you need a source for the proposal that those sentences from Herodot are an indicator that (at that point in the text) he was thinking of the Macedonians as part of the Greeks. So far, that is your interpretation and your argument alone. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:09, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I am just reading the text. Where is "τούτο μεν" and "τούτο δε" referring to? Aeolic order (talk) 17:23, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

"As with sources in English, if a dispute arises involving a citation to a non-English source, editors may request a quotation of relevant portions of the original source be provided, either in text, in a footnote, or on the article talk page." Aeolic order (talk) 17:34, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Relevant portions of the original source. Herodotus Histories 6 44 1 1 αὗται μὲν ὦν σφι πρόσχημα ἦσαν τοῦ στόλου· ἀτὰρ ἐν νόῳ ἔχοντες ὅσας ἂν πλείστας δύνωνται καταστρέφεσθαι τῶν Ἑλληνίδων πολίων, τοῦτο μὲν δὴ τῇσι νηυσὶ Θασίους οὐδὲ χεῖρας ἀνταειραμένους κατεστρέψαντο, τοῦτο δὲ τῷ πεζῷ Μακεδόνας πρὸς τοῖσι ὑπάρχουσι δούλους προσεκτήσαντο· τὰ γὰρ ἐντὸς Μακεδόνων ἔθνεα πάντα σφι ἦν ἤδη ὑποχείρια γεγονότα. Aeolic order (talk) 17:39, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

One 1 is extra Aeolic order (talk) 17:40, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Greek ethnicity of Macedonians "dispute"

About the so called "dispute" about ethnicity of Macedonians as Greeks and article allready mentioning they participated in athletic events. Athletic events mentioned in ancient Greece were part of the 4 major religious festivals in honour of Zeus, Athena, Demeter and Hera the greatest of them being the one in honour of Zeus held in Olympia. The Hellian judges at the olympics were very strict and accepted as participants only citizens of Greek states and their colonies. The reason Macedonians were able to participate (King Phillip famously won second place in chariot racing) was because of Makednos/Makedon being their ancestral progenitor and him being part of that narrative in Greek myths on how the different Greek tribes came to be stemming from Deucalion the last survivor of last cataclysm who had a son named Hellen forefather of all Greeks and his sons being each father of a Greek Tribe with one of them being also father of Makedon. Therefore the judges considered Macedonians Greeks. The disputes existed among various city states as part of political narratives and because in General prior to the unification campaign they started they opted mostly to remain a bit apart, somewhat clannish. 128.0.209.4 (talk) 10:52, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

This is not a forum to discuss the topic. Read the top of every Talk Page in Wikipedia. Do you have a Reliable Source to discuss to improve the article? 50.111.34.214 (talk) 20:45, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2022

178.147.192.169 (talk) 12:21, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Ancient Macedonians were an ancient Greek Doric descend

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:58, 8 July 2022 (UTC)