Talk:Apollo–Soyuz

Swigert's Removal

Per Deke Slayton, and verified by Andrew Chaikin and other space historians, Jack Swigert was in fact assigned to ASTP as CMP, but was removed prior to the official crew announcement as punishment for his involvement in the stamp scandal. The actual grounding wasn't for having actually been involved in the sale of the First Day Covers the A15 crew took with them to the Moon, but for having lied to Deke Slayton about whether he'd had any knowledge of the transaction. Although the NASA PAO recommended that Swigert be removed from the assignment because of his involvement - regardless of how peripheral it was - with the stamp scandal,, Deke Slayton confirmed numerous times before his passing that the actual reason was not that he was involved, but that Swigart had lied to Deke in the face repeatedly when interrogated about said involvement. [unsigned]

If this is supported with reliable sources, it can be added into the article. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:26, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Unclear citations of Committee on Aeronautical and Space Sciences, Soviet Space Programs, 1971–75

In eight places in the article, there are citations referencing "Committee on Aeronautical and Space Sciences, Soviet Space Programs, 1971–75. Washington: U.S. Govt. Print. Off., 1976." I see Vol. I (668 pp.)and Vol. II (221 pp.) on the Internet Archive. It would be helpful if citations referenced specific pages in the report. —Undomelin (talk) 18:45, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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• Apollo-Soyuz Test Project symbolic painting.jpg

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Weak language use.

In the sentence "The assassination of Kennedy on November 22, 1963 and the removal from office of Khruschev on October 14, 1964, made any personal preferences of the respective leaders moot." the last word moot is a poor choice as there was no longer any need for debate or discussion.

Idyllic press (talk) 18:20, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

That is precisely what the word moot means, though. In American English, anyway. And there really is no other word in (any variety of) English that means exactly what moot does in American English. so... Firejuggler86 (talk) 00:54, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

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Suitability of a quote

This article currently contains the following:

The Americans also had their own concerns about Soviet spacecraft. Christopher C. Kraft, director of the Johnson Space Center, criticized the design of the Soyuz:

"We in NASA rely on redundant components — if an instrument fails during flight, our crews switch to another in an attempt to continue the mission. Each Soyuz component, however, is designed for a specific function; if one fails, the cosmonauts land as soon as possible. The Apollo vehicle also relied on astronaut piloting to a much greater extent than did the Soyuz machine."

I removed the last line because it's a criticism of the Apollo, not of the Soyuz. Editor BilCat claims that it is in fact a criticism of the Soyuz.

Reasons it is more likely a criticism of the Apollo:

• It's phrased as a limitation ("relied on astronaut piloting"). If it were being presented as a benefit, something like "allowed astronaut piloting" would be much more likely.
• In context in the source, Kraft criticizes the Soyuz, then has this mystery line, and then expresses an issue about both programs, making it likely that he's listing concerns about both of them in the paragraph.

This is an issue of likelihood--there isn't hard evidence either way. But that means we shouldn't be presenting it as criticism of the Soyuz. Dan Bloch (talk) 03:19, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

References

Featured picture scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Apollo-Soyuz Test Project Flown Silver Robbins Medallion.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for July 15, 2022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-07-15. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.8% of all FPs} 18:48, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

NASA space-flown Apollo medallion for the Apollo–Soyuz mission.

Apollo–Soyuz was the first crewed international space mission, carried out jointly by the United States and the Soviet Union in 1975. A United States Apollo capsule and a Soviet Union Soyuz capsule launched into orbit on July 15, and millions of people around the world watched on television two days later as the spacecraft docked and the two crews shook hands through the hatch. The project was a symbol of détente between the two superpowers during the Cold War, and it is generally considered to mark the end of the Space Race, which had begun in 1957 with the Soviet Union's launch of Sputnik 1.

Credit: Robbins Company for NASA; photographed by Heritage Auctions

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Remove opinion not relevant to the reference or the article

The Lead currently contains the following sentence and supporting reference “...and it is generally considered to mark the end of the Space Race, which had begun in 1957 with the Soviet Union's launch of Sputnik 1.” The reference also contains the following quote “Most observers felt that the U.S. moon landing ended the space race with a decisive American victory. […] The formal end of the space race occurred with the 1975 joint Apollo–Soyuz mission, in which U.S. and Soviet spacecraft docked, or joined, in orbit while their crews visited one another's craft and performed joint scientific experiments.”. I attempted to delete or modify “Most observers felt that the U.S. moon landing ended the space race with a decisive American victory” , however both my edits has been reverted by BilCat. I believe the section about "American victory" is not relevant to this sentence and should be removed. I also note that the article does not mention "American victory" anywhere, it only appears in tbe quote. Finally the comment about "American victory" is controversal and I note that the Space Race lead states the following:

Kennedy's Moon landing goal was achieved in July 1969, with the flight of Apollo 11, a singular achievement considered by the Americans as overshadowing any combination of Soviet achievements that have been made. However, such an opinion is generally contentious, with others attributing the first man in space as being a much larger achievement.

In summary, I believe the quote "Most observers felt that the U.S. moon landing ended the space race with a decisive American victory" should be removed from this article. @BilCat:, can you explain why you reverted my edits? Ilenart626 (talk) 09:59, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not speaking for BillCat, but I basically agree with his reversions. Which Wikipedia pillar obliges us to avoid or remove controversial statements? We just have to observe WP:Verifiability and be careful to present controversy in a balanced, neutral way, and don't teach them. I believe you are pushing a POV, and Prof. Jennifer Frost is all wet: the contention that the first man in space is a greater achievement than landing men on the Moon, makes as much sense as saying the first caveman to crawl out of his cave and build the first shelter achieved more than the construction of the Eiffel Tower, or Empire State Building, or ... . And the "first woman in space achievement" would be the equivalent of the US stuffing Sally Field or Patty Duke into a Mercury capsule; at least either of these two girls I'm sure looked much better in a bikini than Valentina Tereshkova. Frost also can't have it both ways: she says the Space Race was essentially a military arms race, yet the USSR touted their "achievements" as scientific, technologogical, and humanitarian.

In complete historical context of the Space Race, the Moon landing achievement carries the due weight. And the Space Race wasn't over in 1975; it didn't end until the USSR was gone in 1991.JustinTime55 (talk) 16:50, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't see how we can use a source that includes the statement "Most observers felt that the U.S. moon landing ended the space race with a decisive American victory" to justify saying that Apollo-Soyuz is "generally considered to mark the end of the Space Race." -- Vaulter 16:43, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

That's actually a good catch; one doesn't have anything to do with the other. The US and USSR shaking hands just seems to make a feel-good, no=hard-feelings "end", but it didn't really end. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Actually, on second thought, when the Space Race ended is really out of scope for this subject, so maybe the National Security encyclopedia's opinion quote should really be striken as irrelevant? JustinTime55 (talk) 21:09, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

That's actually a good catch; one doesn't have anything to do with the other. The US and USSR shaking hands just seems to make a feel-good, no=hard-feelings "end", but it didn't really end. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Ok, can we agree to remove the quote "Most observers felt that the U.S. moon landing ended the space race with a decisive American victory" from this article? Or alternatively remove the existing reference and quote and find an alternative reference that supports Apollo-Soyuz is "generally considered to mark the end of the Space Race." Ilenart626 (talk) 20:54, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

For example, replace with this reference Apollo-Soyuz mission: When the space race ended Ilenart626 (talk) 21:05, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

No ... because it's still a matter of opinion. That source doesn't verify it's "generally considered" to be the end. What we have to decide is whether or not we want to mention at all in the Apollo-Soyuz article that some people (some smart-Alec will probably tag ) consider it the end of the Race. When the Race ended of course is relevant to Space Race and should be carefully explained there. I'm thinking we should remove it here; it could even be considered a type of WP:POVFORK. JustinTime55 (talk) 21:42, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@BilCat and Vaulter: I'm trying to get a consensus here, before I just rip out the reference to end of Space Race. What say you? JustinTime55 (talk) 21:51, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I concur the end of the space race is out of scope for this article, especially in the lead. BilCat (talk) 22:08, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

When does a race end?

Something else to consider: In my hometown, we hold an annual Manchester Road Race (in Connecticut, not England) on Thanksgiving day. The race is not over when the winner crosses the finish line, (A dying Stephen Boyd gasps to Charlton Heston, "The race goes on, Judah...it goes on!") since about half the town enters the race, of whom only about half bother to train for a run. The race is not over until the last untrained walker finishes. The US obviously "won" the Space Race when accomplishing the Moon shot, but the "race" (competition) did not in fact end, but the USSR continued with military programs like Almaz, Buran (spacecraft), and Polyus (spacecraft) until it collapsed in 1991. JustinTime55 (talk) 22:25, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

References