Talk:Bagenalstown

Names

Muine Bheag / Muinebheag / Muinebeg / Bagenalstown.

We could do with a consolidated paragraph on the various names! (< reminder to self). -- Picapica 11:07, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hopefully a little clearer, Irish is a language full of variation. Djegan 16:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Grma, a Djegan. Some info (from twin town Pont-Péan) which I am parking here, pending incorporation into the article:

In 1932 the Town Commission passed a vote, officially naming the town Muinebheag, without consulting the people. Some called it one name and others called it another name, and so it was for 43 years. In 1975 Carlow County Council held a Plebiscite so that the people of the town would decide which name it would be. The total poll turn out was only 50% and of that the majority of votes came out for Bagenalstown. But as it was a plebiscite, the majority poll required to carry would have to have been 75%. So officially the name is Bagenalstown-Muinebheag, whichever one you like.

En 1932, la Commission de la ville vota pour appeler la ville officiellement Muinebheag, mais sans consulter la population. Alors certains l'appelaient Muinebheag et d'autres Bagenalstown et ceci durant 43 ans. En 1975 le Conseil Départemental de Carlow déclara un plébiscite pour que la ville puisse choisir un des noms. La participation fut de 50% en faveur de Bagenalstown, la majorité devant être de 75% le nom officiel est donc Bagenalstown-Muinebheag, au désir de chacun! -- Picapica 08:47, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have cited the name, of the town, as it appears in the Local Government Act, 2001 whilst this act does not state that the name of "Muinebheag" is the official name of the town the fact that it names it as such and that the term is more widely used or used in a more prominantly than "Bagenalstown" throughout the Irish Statute Book gives it some weight, also the town council itself uses the former term, the term "Muine Bheag" is used somewhat particularily in older orders whilst "Muinebeg" is unused. Ultimately it is somewhat an academic question, as with many Irish language terms their is a certain amount of ambiguity which is not helped by the differences between old and new Irish and their is info on my talk page regarding recent developments about name of places in Irish and the Official Languages Act. Djegan 19:04, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Name

This should probably be under Muine Bheag, rather than Muinebeag. See logainm.ie for the official name:http://www.logainm.ie/?text=muine+bheag&placeID=3405. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 00:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

OK. Sarah777 (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The article currently states: "The English name "Bagenalstown" is more commonly used, but "Muinebeag" is the official name of the town while the variation "Muine Bheag" is more commonly used, and is often used in speech as "Muinebeg"." So, 'Bagenalstown' is more commonly used, and 'Muine Bheag' is (also) more commonly used?? If someone understands the intent, perhaps they would rewrite it more intelligibly. Are there references for any of this?
--Yumegusa (talk) 21:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Names and google

B = Bagenalstown, A = Muine Bheag

Bagenalstown has over 40,000 hits, Muine Bheag has about 21,000. That reflects the reality - everyone still calls it Bagenalstown.86.42.240.22 (talk) 14:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

If that were true surely you'd expect Bagenalstown to have 61,000 hits? Sarah777 (talk) 14:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily.... --HighKing (talk) 15:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Can't see how A is a subset of B in this case. Sarah777 (talk) 12:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I've lived in south County Kildare all my life and I have never once heard it called Muine Bheag in conversation by us natives. It's a new thing for civil servants and blow-ins. The Bagenal part is 2 syllables: Bag Nall. As I am an "irish at national school and left young" person, I looked it up and muine doesn't mean thicket - unless in an obscure very local dialect. So as well as being brand new, it is also bad Irish. Muine means manners, in my book, and I suggest that "Little manners" is a joke cooked up by some civil servant with a weird sense of humour.Red Hurley (talk) 11:34, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't in any way wish to offend Red Hurley, but I must say that his rather ludicrous and ill-informed speculations on the origins of "Muine Bheag" were most amusing. May I suggest that he should avoid this kind of thing unless he is actually familiar with the subject or has done some proper research into it? Again, none of this is said wtih intent to offend and I am sure that he has contributions of value to make on subjects which he is more knowledgeable on.

Let me present the true facts as far as I understand them. Walter Bagenal founded the town in the eighteenth century at a place known in Irish as Muine Bheag. Alongside "Bagenalstown", there persisted this Irish name with the Anglicisations of Moneybeg and even Moonbeg, which are found on some old documents. At the time of Independence in the twentieth century, English had established itself as the locality's sole vernacular speech, and Bagenalstown was established as the most common English name. The decision was nevertheless taken to officially establish the Irish name Muinebheag/Muine Bheag in both languages. The anglicisation Muinebeg is also used. All these versions are still used, although my personal impression is that Bagenalstown remains clearly most common in ordinary speech among locals. Visitors may find the multiple versions confusing, and it is what meant for example that there were established side by side in the same town the Muine Bheag Fire Station and the Bagenalstown Health Centre. In fact a plebiscite was held on the name issue in 1975 but could make no final decision due I believe to low turnout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.203.35 (talk) 13:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

...and the low turnout was most likely because everyone called it Bagenalstown then, and still does. It's a bit like Daingean Uí Chúis / Dingle.Red Hurley (talk) 20:29, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

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Time to formally rename the article per WP:COMMONNAME

It is clear from past discussions, the inquorate plebiscite (50% voted 70+/30 to move back to Bagenalstown), and sources, Google, etc., that the common name should be Bagenalstown. It's certainly the only thing one hears locally / when visiting. And our policies are clear. Not Muine Beag, and certainly not Muinebeag, etc. Are there any real objections? SeoR (talk) 12:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@SeoR: I'd support a move. The article is clearly misnamed. Zacwill (talk) 16:04, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

When I was in Kilkenny (neighbouring) some years ago it was usually referred to as Moneybeg Sarah777 (talk) 22:44, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

As a Carlow woman, I have to say that it will always be Bagnalstown to me! It appears that this is still the most commonly used name for this town? I know that Google hits don't tell the whole story, but I think here it is indicative. Smirkybec (talk) 20:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 16 August 2022

Muine Bheag → Bagenalstown – "Muine Bheag" is the name favoured by officialdom, but "Bagenalstown" is undoubtedly the WP:COMMONNAME, returning over four times as many results on Google. Going by the 1975 plebiscite, it's also the town's preferred self-designation. Zacwill (talk) 13:31, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - People love to reference Google hits, but if you look at Google trends (actual peoples searches, not number of pages (incl. spam?), Muine Bheag actually beats it, and that is not even including the term Muinebheag without the space. Google Trends to compare. I don't think Bagenalstown is undoubtedly the Common name. The official name would be the town's preferred self designation? Not an almost 50 year old poorly turnout poll. Since it is so close, I vote in favour of keeping it Muine Bheag. ~ Ablaze (talk) 14:02, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not a regular user so I'm not "voting" but you guys have a policy to prefer the commonly used name, and there's only one of those in this case - "Bag'nals town" is how we say it, Bagenalstown is the spelling. Maybe by coincidence, it has an element like "Beag" but the two languages have different bases. And FYI, the poll was not badly turned out - more than 50% of the population voted, more than in many major elections, referenda, etc. It's just there was a target of 75% for a binding vote. And >75% of that 50% voted for the proper name. A previous poll by one or two local newspapers had a similar outcome, 3:1 in favour of Bagenalstown. 185.114.163.227 (talk) 16:08, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - not least because Wikipedia sometimes refuses to use the WP:COMMONNAME for entire countries, never mind villages. Self-designation isn't the deciding factor on Wiki, as illustrated by the fact that the overwhelming majority of people who live in the country of Ireland refer to the place as simply Ireland - yet Wiki is still using a "description" instead of the name! The current article name for Mhuine Beg is the official name of the town, and is commonly used, usually in the anglicised form of "Moneybeg". Sarah777 (talk) 14:20, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

What has the naming of the article for Ireland / RoI got to do with this? And anyway, while "the Republic" and "RoI" are inferior, they are used every single day by Irish government bodies, newspapers and academics, to be clear which bit of the island is referred to. And "Republic of Ireland" is enshrined in law for 70+ years. 185.114.163.227 (talk) 16:08, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support - per previous discussions above, road signs, tourist literature (e.g. https://carlowtourism.com/bagenalstown-map/), the past poll (a clear if not quorate result), and multiple book references. And my own experience supports - I've heard Bagenalstown (mostly), Moneybeg (a little) and never, ever heard anyone actually call it Muine Bheag or Muinebeag - in Google, these will get hits just because of the dubious (no discussion at all of that undemocratic move) official naming. All names will remain mentioned, of course. SeoR (talk) 17:12, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support - as per SeoR above and previous discussions. As someone from Carlow, it has always been Bagnelstown in conversation and in any histories I have read related to the area for my whole life. Smirkybec (talk) 20:32, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support, as others list above, this is the common name in use in and about the town. It is also in the title of the two volumes of local history, all the tourist information leaflets, and many local businesses. Muine Bheag has no local usage at all and not much in academia either, it's an !official invention! 93.107.40.190 (talk) 12:31, 17 August 2022 (UTC)