:::::Using that logic you can't compare NYC to any city in the US because it has more than double the population of the next largest city. [[Special:Contributions/72.89.83.192|72.89.83.192]] ([[User talk:72.89.83.192|talk]]) 14:16, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::Using that logic you can't compare NYC to any city in the US because it has more than double the population of the next largest city. [[Special:Contributions/72.89.83.192|72.89.83.192]] ([[User talk:72.89.83.192|talk]]) 14:16, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::The point is that NYC's crime is low for a city of its size. Not high '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 16:35, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::The point is that NYC's crime is low for a city of its size. Not high '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 16:35, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::What other city in the US has near8.8 million people? [[Special:Contributions/72.89.83.192|72.89.83.192]] ([[User talk:72.89.83.192|talk]]) 17:10, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::No other city in the US has over 8 million residents, no US city is really comparable. But if you must compare it to the 100 biggest US cities it has a below average violent crime rate. Not spectacularly safe nor the safest.[[Special:Contributions/72.89.83.192|72.89.83.192]] ([[User talk:72.89.83.192|talk]]) 17:10, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
I think part of the problem here is that, while generally reliable, newspapers aren't actually very reliable for reporting on current crime trends. Even the more staid papers like the ''New York Times'' and the ''Wall Street Journal'' are prone to "if it bleeds it leads" sensationalism. For topics related to crime and public safety we should try to lean more on academic sources published in books and peer-reviewed journals. Perhaps we need a new section in [[WP:RELIABLE]] discussing crime, much like we have specialized guidance for [[Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)]]. [[User:Pburka|pburka]] ([[User talk:Pburka|talk]]) 14:20, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
I think part of the problem here is that, while generally reliable, newspapers aren't actually very reliable for reporting on current crime trends. Even the more staid papers like the ''New York Times'' and the ''Wall Street Journal'' are prone to "if it bleeds it leads" sensationalism. For topics related to crime and public safety we should try to lean more on academic sources published in books and peer-reviewed journals. Perhaps we need a new section in [[WP:RELIABLE]] discussing crime, much like we have specialized guidance for [[Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)]]. [[User:Pburka|pburka]] ([[User talk:Pburka|talk]]) 14:20, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
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Crime rate data on heading 2021 table is incorrect
Crime is classified differently between different jurisdictions. The FBI Uniform Crime Reporting program attempts to standardize crime data between them. Felony assault is not the same as aggravated assault, it is a type of aggravated assault. The NYPD CompStat report classifies rape under the old system, only female victims penetrated vaginally by a male. There are many other examples. The violent crime rate in NYC was 570.7 in 2019 and 577.8 in 2020 according to the FBI UCR. 2021 was higher than both but has not been released yet. Should revert to 2020 until the FBI releases the UCR 2021 statistics.
I notice that some data is per capita and other data contains just the amount. For example the section "Murders_by_year" shouldn't this be per capita or at least include both values? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitigating (talk • contribs) 12:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Crime rates
I removed the addition of "rising violent crime" since the overall story over the last 10 or 20 years is that violent crime is DOWN. Andrevan@14:45, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I added factual information on the murder rate skyrocketing from 2019 to 2020, "Brothers" had added completely false information regarding the increase in the murder rate from 2019 to 2020. Bill Williams18:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As it reads now it is not NPOV. The general story is that NYC is a lot safer today than it was 10, 20, or 30 years ago. This should not be the story in the lead section. Andrevan@18:08, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The crime rates skyrocketed as listed by the sources, we already discuss how the crime rate decreased after the 1990s, and the last section is about the current crime rates. How in the world can basic statistics be "NPOV"? What point of view does a percentage sign hold? Bill Williams18:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The crime rates did not skyrocket, they saw a small uptick. You are characterizing it as skyrocketing but look at this graph. There's not a very sharp slope of the uptick between 2015 and 2021. Claiming like this is a huge spike in growth is misleading at best. [18:16, 28 July 2022] I took a look at the sources and I did not see the phrase "Climate of fear" or "skyrocket," the WSJ article does say crime rose, you can state it more neutrally. Andrevan@18:20, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"A small uptick" are you joking right now? The WSJ article literally says the murders "rose dramatically". The article was completely neutral and purely stated facts, which is that the murder rate increased by 45% in a single year, from 2019 to 2020. If you think that is a "small uptick" you have no business editing this article whatsoever. Find a single other year where the murder rate rose nearly as much as that. Bill Williams18:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I could not care less what you got from eyeballing the graph, it is a massive rise as a percentage of the murder rate, and that is what news sources reported on. You are removing sourced information that was heavily reported on, it is not what I am claiming, but what reliable sources are. Bill Williams18:29, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I took a look at the sources and I did not see the phrase "Climate of fear" or "skyrocket." Or "massive rise." The article covers the entire period of crime in New York City going back to the 1890s, and you are focusing on WP:RECENTISM in the lead section. That's too much weight for this and you are mischaracterizing what the source says. "Rose dramatically" in a several year period but you are leaving out the overall trend from 1988 to 2010, and to 2021, are about the same. This is the lead section and it's not an appropriate framing for a summary of the entire article. Andrevan@18:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have not mischaracterized a single source, the recent rise in crime is most relevant to the lead considering it is covered far more by reliable sources than the past rates of crime. You are completely wrong by the way, let me quote some sources to prove your understatement of the level of crime is nonsense:[1] "It's just crazy" [2] "homicide spike" [3] "massive impact" [4] "massive crime spike" [5] "violent crime is surging" and I could go on and on, that took me one minute to find. Bill Williams18:34, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The first one says "Violent Crime in the U.S. Is Surging," so it would be proper to characterize whether NYC is on par with the national trend or ahead or behind, rather than just stating as though it is a NY thing. 2nd one, "12 major cities hit all-time homicide records," again, not NY-specific, 3rd one, "Homicide Spike Hits Most Large U.S. Cities," again, not specific to NYC. GSU one, I like this one, and I think there's more here that you could use, which attributes the crime to the pandemic and not to NY policing or policy. Surprisingly, the Fox News article is also in this vein. "Massive crime spike stems from social unrest, COVID lockdowns destabilizing communities: expert," though I generally consider Fox News unreliable, I see nothing wrong with this. So, I would be happy to support use of these sources if you summarize them accurately instead of just using them to support the narrative that NYC is a "climate of fear" which is not what any of them say. Andrevan@18:46, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The rise in New York City has been above the national rise in homicides, so every one of those headlines applies even more so to New York City. It is completely irrelevant what causes the rise in crime, what the heck does that have to do with anything I said or what was in the article? I don't care what you think about Fox News, it said the same thing that dozens of other sources stated. What in the world are you quoting with "climate of fear" that is something I never said and could not care less about. Bill Williams18:57, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The text I removed said, As of April 2022, the city recorded a 42.7% increase in major reported crimes compared to the same period in 2021, according to the NYPD. That includes a 46.7% increase in robberies, a 54% spike in grand larceny incidents and a 14.9% jump in rapes. Murder rates have also increased 9.2% over the last two years. In 2022, a poll revealed that 75% of New Yorkers exhibit a climate of fear whereby they may be victims of a violent crime at any given time in the city.Andrevan@19:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I did not add the "climate of fear" line and I'm fine with you removing that wording, but it is still significant that 75% of New Yorkers think they could be the victim of violent crime at any time, and that is unprecedented and should be stated in the lead. Bill Williams19:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, a single poll asking for whether people fear violent crime shouldn't be cherry picked to create a narrative. We need to only talk about these things as long term, long time aggregates and averages. WP:10YEARSTESTAndrevan@19:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Also, I don’t understand the point of focusing on murder & non-negligent manslaughter one year in NYC’s 396 year history. Particularly without mentioning that during that year the NYPD had a very large number of officers off the job due to Covid and the courts were mostly closed or conducted remotely. Also not mentioning that the overall major felony rate was steady in that year from 95,606 to 95,593. In fact, 2020 was the lowest major felony rate in decades. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There has not been a single more sudden and dramatic rise in violent crime in the city as there was after 2020, and this should be described in the lead, maybe not with a dozen different statistics, but at least with some amount of information. The recent rise in crime is unprecedented and New Yorkers are clearly concerned with it. Bill Williams18:58, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not close to unprecedented. Indeed, overall violent offenses are still low compared to other years of the last two decades.[table] And polls like that I don't find meaningful. (Not relevant, but I've lived in Manhattan for the last 34 years and this is not a topic of conversation outside of local papers and channels looking for a story. Climate of fear is bullshit.) I really don't think recent polls belong in an article covering over a century. Focus on facts. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, I live in the Bronx and I have lived in and around the area for my entire life minus a few years here and there, and if anything, it's much safer now than it was in the early-mid 1990s. That being said, my opinion is not important. I don't see evidence in the sources that this is "unprecedented." It is up from a low number on a percentage basis but still much lower than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago. Or maybe it's getting back to the 2011 range on the graph but nowhere near 1988. Andrevan@19:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your original research is not what belongs in the article. I never said "climate of fear" belongs here, that's a nonsensical strawman. The sudden and yes, unprecedented rise by nearly 50% in a single year belongs in the lead and is covered well by sources. Articles are meant to benefit the readers, and readers should know about the recent trend of increasing crime, not just babble about what happened decades ago, which is irrelevant to them. You can claim it is not unprecedented, but find me a single year where murders rose by 50%. Bill Williams17:19, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Climate of fear" is not a strawman, it was the version of the article that I removed, but I'm glad we agree that it is not merited. We're not doing original research, you are the one spinning these stats to tell a political tale of the crime-infested land of NY. Obviously, we both have a view here, but what matters is what the sources say. You offered a bunch of sources saying that overall crime has been increasing in the USA as a whole since the pandemic. How does that say we should cherrypick a statistic of a 45% increase (which still is much lower than 15 years ago) and use that to say NYC has a unique crime wave trend. There are definitely sources that discuss the crime wave, there is also an overall summarization of the trend from the peak in 1988 from pre-Dinkins era, to Giuliani era, Bloomberg, De Blasio and Adams. I'm open if you want to propose some text but the version I removed ain't it, IMHO. Andrevan@17:23, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing "NPOV" about the sentence, Andrevan. You do not have consensus to constitute such a unjustified removal, sources and stats override the personal opinion of editors. 175.113.36.254 (talk) 15:04, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Of the largest US cities, NYC ranks 80th out of 100 in murder and 96th out of 100 in all violent crimes. [6]. Looking at a blip in one of the 396 years caused by Covid with its resulting unemployment and lack of enforcement is WP:RECENTISM and highly misleading. And, it's much easier for the rate to go up 50% when it's low to start with. I realize that certain sources jump at the chance to document every murder in NYC and LA. (Dem cities they call them.) Let us not follow that WP:POV lead. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:36, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
According to the link you posted in 2019 NYC ranked 59th out of the 100 largest cities in regards to violent crime. 80th out of 100 in regards to murder. 72.89.83.192 (talk) 11:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Bronx still has a very high rate of violent crime. It was 928.8 violent crimes per 100,000 residents in 2020 and should be in excess of 1,000 violent crimes per 100,000 residents by the end of 2022 at this rate. While violent crime in the Bronx is down versus the historic highs of the early 1990s, it's actually up significantly this year when compared to the last two decades. In 2010 for example it was 871.4 violent crimes per 100,000 residents. The rate of felony assaults is the highest since the end of the crack epidemic as well. 72.89.83.192 (talk) 11:20, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly oppose inclusion. NYC remains one of the safest large cities in the world. A one-year spike from historic lows is not appropriate for the lede and certainly not as percentages that provide zero insight to readers. Also fails lede follows body. WP:ONUS is on inclusion, so Andrevan does not need consensus to remove. Slywriter (talk) 22:12, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Right. "Incidents of violent crime remain at historic lows in New York City. But people’s views on guns and crime are often more influenced by what they see and hear, rather than by hard numbers."[7]Andre🚐03:52, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"NYC remains one of the safest large cities in the world." Source? Is NYC safer than cities with a similar or even higher population such as London, Tokyo, Taipei, Seoul, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Singapore, Toronto, Melbourne, etc? 218.40.82.210 (talk) 11:32, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
NYC's violent crime rate is not extraordinarily low among cities. Below average among the largest cities at 577.8 violent crimes per 100,000 people in 2020.
US major cities with violent crime rates similar to NYC in 2020:
Seattle, Boston, Pittsburgh, Miami, San Francisco, and Las Vegas added together have less than half the population of NYC. These are not comparable cities. And you still admit NYC is in the lower half of violent crime rates of major cities. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:57, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No other city in the US has over 8 million residents, no US city is really comparable. But if you must compare it to the 100 biggest US cities it has a below average violent crime rate. Not spectacularly safe nor the safest.72.89.83.192 (talk) 17:10, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think part of the problem here is that, while generally reliable, newspapers aren't actually very reliable for reporting on current crime trends. Even the more staid papers like the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal are prone to "if it bleeds it leads" sensationalism. For topics related to crime and public safety we should try to lean more on academic sources published in books and peer-reviewed journals. Perhaps we need a new section in WP:RELIABLE discussing crime, much like we have specialized guidance for Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine). pburka (talk) 14:20, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless, there's a clear discussion here where a number of editors oppose the text you restored on NPOV grounds. Andre🚐15:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's not how it works. Some sources can be reliable in some contexts and not others. Newspapers have differing levels of reliability for different topics. pburka (talk) 16:05, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
