Talk:Sally Hemings

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2021

They were not sexual partners. He raped and abused her for years. She was a slave trapped in a basement. Calling them sexual partners eludes to it being a consensual/healthy relationship. The relationship was involuntary as well as the intercourse. She was never freed by him either. 198.54.107.43 (talk) 12:05, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:16, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Baloney. The relationship started when Hemings was a free woman in Paris and treated as a paid employee by Jefferson. She also had plenty of job skills at the time, and could have survived had she left him. She negotiated with Jefferson and agreed to return with him to Virginia (where she resumed her slave status) if he agreed to free all their children when they reached 21. The room in which she stayed was meager and sparse, but in NO way qualifies as a "basement" or a "hole in the wall".--WickerGuy (talk) 19:07, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

No Scientific Proof Exists That Thomas Jefferson Fathered Sally Heming's Children

The claim that Thomas Jefferson fathered one or more of Sally Heming's children exists only as an oral tradition. The article presents it as a settled fact, which is not the case. The Jefferson/Hemings rumor was started in the first place by a political rival of Thomas's. Although Sally Hemings had several children, only descendents of her youngest, Eston, had DNA from somebody in the Jefferson line. At the time of Eston's conception, Thomas was 65. There were eight male Jeffersons, almost all younger, who frequently visited or stayed at Monticello at that time. Thomas's younger brother Randolph is a possible candidate, or any one of Randolph's five sons, who were then in their teens and twenties. The following link gives a detailed analysis of the Jefferson DNA:

https://pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/primer.html

Human nature will always find something fun and intriguing in the belief that a Founding Father had feet of clay. But, so far, proof does not exist that Thomas Jefferson did. A claim that's essentially ancient gossip does not belong, unchallenged, in Wikipedia. The article needs serious revision in the direction of science and proven reality. Younggoldchip (talk) 13:17, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

The PBS.org page you linked to says this is a "dissenting memo from John H. Works, Jr., a Jefferson descendant and a past president of the Monticello Association":

Dr. Foster concluded that "the simplest and most probable explanation for our molecular findings are that Thomas Jefferson, rather than one of the Carr brothers, was the father of Eston Hemings Jefferson, [Sally Heming's youngest son]... This DNA study testing the Y chromosome found that there was a link to "some" Jefferson, but not necessarily Thomas, having been the father of Eston, Sally Heming's youngest son. These DNA tests indicated that any one of 8 Jeffersons could have been the father of Eston and there was nothing to indicate it was Thomas."

So even according to this conflicted source you cite, Thomas Jefferson still could have been Eston Heming's father—he wasn't eliminated as a candidate, and according to the study the most probable explanation is that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Eston Hemings Jefferson, a fact of "proven reality" in the "direction of science" that you omit (i.e., the fact that this is "the most probable explanation"). The article can reflect that. Carlstak (talk) 18:29, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

I didn't deny that Thomas Jefferson "could" have been Eston Heming's father, I pointed out only that this has not been proven. Any one of eight male Jeffersons were also on site and equally likely to have fathered Eston. In fact, it would seem likelier that one of Randolph Jefferson's young sons was the father, rather than a 65-year-old Virginia aristocrat who had a very strong sense of his own dignity, and even wrote tracts against relations with enslaved women. But, this is only opinion. I look forward to advances in DNA assessment which will give the answer to this longstanding question. Younggoldchip (talk) 15:25, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. This was the conclusion of an expert group of historians. This wikipedia article can best be understood by reviewing the extensive attempts to correct misinformation, which at this point have failed. sbelknap (talk) 20:56, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

We don't present it as settled fact; we link to Jefferson–Hemings controversy and summarize here. @Sbelknap: "lack of any documentary evidence" is a bizarre phrase that doesn't summarize the article body and obviously is not going to be used. VQuakr (talk) 00:12, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

The sentence in the lead states, "During this time, under circumstances that are not well understood, she and Jefferson began having intimate relations." No citation is given. Those who are familiar with the historical record are aware that this assertion is not supported by the available documentary evidence. As a separate point, an analysis by a group of eminent historians concluded that Jefferson was almost certainly not the father of Sally Hemings' children.sbelknap (talk) 06:50, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

"As a separate point, an analysis by a group of eminent historians" the TJHS you mean. They're not particularly eminent and they certainly represent a minority viewpoint. We needn't cite in lead when it's cited in the body. VQuakr (talk) 08:15, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

I am not referring to the TJHS but instead I am referring to The Scholars Commission on the Jefferson-Hemings Issue. This was an independent professional committee of historians, genealogists, lawyers, and other scholars funded by TJHS. By any reasonable criteria, this was an accomplished and prominent panel of experts. A description of the panel and the report of the Scholars Commission can be accessed here: https://www.tjheritage.org/the-scholars-commission.

This article on Sally Hemings violates one of The Five Pillars of Wikipedia, "Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view." Specifically, the genetic information about the haplogroup K2, a Y chromosome lineage representing about 1% of Y chromosomes worldwide does not conclusively show that any particular man fathered any of Sally Hemings' children. Further, the available historical information shows that it is unlikely that TJ fathered any of her children. Is it possible? Sure. But some other person with the haplogroup K2 lineage of Y chromosome is likely the father of SH's children. This article presents independent research of wikipedia editors as fact. sbelknap (talk) 20:51, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Caricature

I can see many people have worked very hard on this page, from reviewing the archive of previous discussions and edits. However I could not find any discussion of how it came to be that a caricature of Sally Hemings is used as her primary photo. While this is taken out of context, the original caricature depicts Hemings as a chicken, or hen. I find this offensive as there is a long-standing tradition of depicting African Americans as animals which continues to the present day in many more insidious forms. Not only is this offensive, it is also historically inaccurate. The man who created this caricature never saw Sally Hemings with his own eyes. Furthermore, the few contemporary descriptions of Hemings describe her as 'nearly white' or something to that effect. Obviously this image presents an imagined African American enslaved woman. I know the article is much enhanced by an image, but I think a different one should be used. I believe there are other artistic depictions of her that are more respectful (if also doubtful in their historical accuracy). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:4040:6004:C500:3129:56F:5A43:5E9E (talk) 13:24, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Although in the original caricature Jefferson is also shown as a chicken, so it's not clear that this particular portrayal was meant as a racialized insult. Nevertheless, given the history, and the exploited nature of the subject's life, and the fact that it's unlikely to even be an accurate image of her, it doesn't seem like a good choice as the primary image. Perhaps a more respectful artist's imagining or even some place or object associated with Hemings can be used?Curious georgianna (talk) Curious georgianna (talk) 06:31, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

I'd guess she never had her portrait painted, and they didn't have cameras. So unlikely to find an appropriate image. YoPienso (talk) 07:14, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

No, they didn't have cameras and everyone realizes she wouldn't have had her portrait painted. What I said was "Perhaps a more respectful artist's imagining or even some place or object associated with Hemings can be used?" For instance, a photo of an actress playing her in a film, perhaps. Given the amount of current cultural interest in her, there may be an IMAGINED rendering of her by some modern artist. Even though they would obviously look nothing like her, since nobody has any idea how she looked. But this caricature also almost certainly looks nothing like her, since, rumors about Jefferson's life aside, the caricaturist is extremely unlike to have known or cared if he was rendering her with any accuracy. This makes the current image just as "inappropriate" to use your term. Finally, I also suggested maybe using an image of a place associated with her. For example, the room where she lived, according to the museum at Monticello. I made a respectful and tentative suggestion for something to think about. Snarky responses are unhelpful.Curious georgianna (talk) Curious georgianna (talk) 23:36, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

I think the caricature image should be removed. I would do it myself, except that it is long-standing in the article so consensus will be needed. It isn't true that "nobody has any idea how she looked". She was often described as light-skinned, being three-quarters white, and even as bearing "a strong resemblance to Martha Jefferson". But this image shows her as dark-skinned and is therefore very misleading. I vote to remove it, and leave no image if a better one can't be found. I see that several other people in this discussion seem to agree with removing it. @Curious georgianna and Yopienso: Would you agree with removing it and leaving no image at all, if a better one can't be found? -- MelanieN (talk) 03:29, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

P.S. There is nothing of any use at Wikimedia Commons. But she has been portrayed in numerous productions, see Cultural depictions of Sally Hemings. One major portrayal was a 2000 TV miniseries titled Sally Hemings: An American Scandal. Maybe we could use a picture of the actress who portrayed her, Carmen Ejogo? She could well represent Hemings, since she herself is of mixed race (Scottish mother, Nigerian father), but in the picture on her page she appears mostly white, as Hemings herself is said to have appeared. What would you think about using the photo from her page, with a caption like "Actress Carmen Ejogo portrayed Hemings in the TV miniseries Sally Hemings: An American Scandal ? Alternatively, there are several good pictures of Thandiwe Newton, who was also of mixed race and portrayed Hemings in Jefferson in Paris. The one captioned "Newton in 2007" would be the best, since she appears fairly young and nothing about the picture places her in modern times.-- MelanieN (talk) 03:49, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that the caricature should be removed. That was actually the whole point of all my comments on this topic. Sorry if I was unclear in that. I made some suggestions on the type of image we might consider replacing it with (though I don't have a particular image recommendation). I looked at wiki commons and creative commons hoping to find something useful but couldn't come up with anything. I also agree that it would be better to have no image than the caricature. But, like you, I also didn't want to take it upon myself to edit this longstanding item without some discussion. Should we just remove it and add a note in the edit summary directed to this discussion? What's the protocol? Thanks. ~ Curious georgianna (talk) 04:13, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

In my earlier comment, I also recommended considering the image of an actress portraying her, but when I looked for images, I couldn't find one that would be clearly permitted, in terms of copyright issues. All the ones you suggested sound good. Are they in the public domain or otherwise permitted for use?~ Curious georgianna (talk) 04:27, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

This one (below and to the right) is listed as CC by 2.0 so I believe it should be OK to use:

Actress Thandiwe Newton, who portrayed Sally Hemings in the 1995 film Jefferson in Paris.

What do you think? -- MelanieN (talk) 20:58, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

I think the article is better served with no image of Sally Hemings. The photo of the actress who portrayed her should not be at the top of the article. It would be appropriate to use it in a mention of Jefferson in Paris, but not as a substitute for an actual image of Hemings. It's a shame the present one from the caricature probably shouldn't be used—I think it actually portrays her as rather beautiful, and it's contemporaneous, having been made when she was still alive. Damn the luck. Carlstak (talk) 02:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Another possibility, the one on the left: this one is listed as Fair Use. This one actually is a portrayal of Hemings, while the other one is just a picture of the actress who portrayed her, so maybe it would be more appropriate.

File:Jefferson in paris ver2.jpg

The one on the left got deleted by a bot because "non-free files can only be used in articles". This is a talk page so apparently we can't use it here. However we could use it in the Hemings article. It's a copy of the movie poster for Jefferson in Paris and shows her as a child or young teenager listening while Jefferson and his paramour talk. You can see it in the infobox of the Jefferson in Paris article. If it's not appropriate in the infobox here, we could (as Carlstak suggested) use it to illustrate the Paris part of this article. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:51, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Curious georgianna: Thoughts? -- MelanieN (talk) 21:14, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

I do think the caricature should be removed from the infobox. I wouldn't object to the entire (not cropped) caricature farther down, as it shows how some people perceived TJ's relationship with her.

I do not think it's a good idea to put an actress's face or other cultural image there in the infobox. Such an image could be OK later in the article with an appropriate explanatory caption. YoPienso (talk) 05:32, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Although I do appreciate the desire to remove the caricature, I agree with @Carlstak and @Yopienso- I am reluctant with using an actress to represent Sally Hemmings in the info box. Additionally to the points raised, the studios seemed to have picked actresses with more significant African ancestry to accentuate the character they wanted to portray. This is also likely the case with the depiction in the caricature. I am not saying that everyone with a 3/4 European, 1/4 African ancestry looks the same. However, perhaps in general (seeing as how we don't know what she looked like other than being "fair skinned"), it would be wise to not include any picture near the beginning of the article. I particularly agree with @Yopienso, that both an unedited caricature and the actresses' faces should be in the article, just further down with appropriate comments on their relevance. SuperTah (talk) 06:00, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

I can understand the reluctance to use another person's image in the info box. I also like the idea of using the caricature in full, including the Jefferson caricature further down in the discussion of the social reputation/rumors surrounding their relationship, rather than as a stand in for the actual image of the subject.

@MelanieN @SuperTah @Carlstak and @Yopienso, Any thoughts as to using an image of a place such as her quarters at Monticello or if there is any structure or memorial dedicated to her (I don't know if there are)? Otherwise, I think it would be best to leave it without an info box image. ~ Curious georgianna (talk) 23:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Experienced editors needed on similar article

Wikipedia currently has an article about a man named West Ford who may have been a descendant of George Washington or his brother John Washington. This raises issues (e.g. notability) similar to the issues for Sally Hemings and her children, three of whom have Wikipedia articles. So any input from editors of this article would be appreciated over at Talk:West Ford. Thanks. Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:37, 31 May 2022 (UTC)