Talk:Manchu people

Korea and the Manchus

Just like the barbarian Manchu Roadrunner claims here, the Koreans also conclude that hte manchurian jurchen are barbarians. Many times in Korean history has the nomadic tribe raid the northern border of Korea, and it is impossible to consider the barbaric Manchus civilized Korean people. Also, during the early Joseon dynasty, the Koreans allowed some barbrian Jurchen to change their surname, marry a Korean woman and be civilized by givin them a Joseon citizenship. Therefore, historically, the Korean and MAnchu ethnic groups are not the same, although all asian people initially came from the same roots.

Merge with Manchu language

The language paragraph should be merged with Manchu language article. olivier 07:56 Feb 3, 2003 (UTC)

Hi, I agree, but in general, when should there be one article and when should there be two on this kind of thing? (e.g. Khitan) mgmei

Korean tribe

Move here....

Jurchen is korean tribe. So, manchus is korean. So, manchus thought that korea is their ancester's country. -- thirdid 01:10, 2004 Sep 6 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that this was part of Korean historiography. If it is it needs to be mentioned in a NPOV way.

Roadrunner 06:33, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Koreans = Jurchen? Oh...please don't be pathetic. I am a full Manchu. We look down on dog-eating Chosen people(ethnic korean) in Manchuria. We Manchu people and Chosen(Koreans)observe totally different tradition. i.e the dog-eating is a major taboo for us Manchus. The relation between us Manchus and Chosen Chinese is quite tense to say the least. Please stop stealing our ancester. Korean's ancesters were from Samhan confederacies in the far south of Korean peniusula which has nothing to do with us Manchus or Jurchens.

Chinese, Koreans and Japanese are considered to be related in some way, even though they observe different tradition.

Umm...no. There is no genetic or historical evidence to claim that Koreans or Japanese are somehow more closely related to Chinese than they are to Manchus. In fact, the genetic evidence would place the Japanese as extreme outliers within the entire sphere of East Eurasia, with the Koreans and particularly the Manchus being somewhat more closely related to the Han Chinese, but still distinct from them and from each other. However, the Koreans and the Manchus do seem to be particularly closely related to each other among East Eurasian ethnic groups. For the record, those Kalmyks in Russia are probably more closely related to Chinese people than the Japanese are. Ebizur 09:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I find it amusing that people apply more modern conceptions of ethnicities on the past of what we know as Jurchen and Korean people. Be aware that these cultural identities are fairly recent constructs, and that intermixing was common where well defined cultural boundaries were yet to exist.

Therefore it is fruitless to argue about the ancestries of Korean and Manchus when a fair bit of mixing occured due to the geography. There is also a chance of migrations further diluting ancient cultural differences or forming new boundaries Whodhellknew 21:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Jurchens

In korea, Korean call Jurchens 女眞族, Yeo-Jin-Jok. Jok means tribe. So korean simply call yeo-jin. Jurchens is korean people. My ancestor(my lastname founder) is a Jurchens chieftain, Yi Ji-Ran. He is Yi Seong-gye's sworn brother. Brothers established Joseon Dynasty. Later Yi Ji-Ran is promoted to King of the Joseon Dynasty posthumously.

Jurchens have lived with Korean during the dynasties of Gojoseon, Goguryeo, Baekje, and Balhae. After, destruction of Balhae, wandering people of Balhae including Jurchens are entered in Goryeo. But, the government of Joseon, which destroyed Goryeo, considers Jurchens as barbarians, and do not want them to be the people of Joseon dynasty even though Yi Ji-Ran, who is Jurchens, is a worthy-retainer of Joseon construction. So, Jurchens want to construct their own country, and, they established Qing dynasty. But, the the emperor of Qing dynasty don't forget that he is a Korean, and this is proved in the history book of Qing dynasty.

 金之始祖諱函普. 初從高麗來，年已六十餘矣. 兄阿古好佛，留高麗不肯從
 ->The name of Qing dynasty founder is Hambo. 
   When he came from Goryeo, he is about 60 years older or more. 
   His brother, Agohobol, don't follow Hambo, but stay in Goryeo.
 Quoted from history book of Qing (金史).

All Jurchens knew that they are korean tribe. But, some people want to go to south and live in Joseon. other people want to establish their own country. Because their ancester was the people of Goguryeo, not Silla. like as south korean, north korean... Later, They established their own nation, Qing Dynasty. -- thirdid 01:10, 2004 Sep 6 (UTC)

Dude, your link for "Hambo" goes to some obscure Swedish dance. Gimme a break. --SohanDsouza 11:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Manchu

Manchu or Manju had been Korean territory at least until 19th century. There is the monument titled with "Mt. Bakdu monument" that is constructed at 17century between Qing and Joseon. The Monument says that the national border between Qing and Joseon is "Tomoon river". According to "the monument of Mt. Bakdu", Manju is a Korean territory. However, Japan has illegal sold Manchu to Qing when Korea was Japanese colony. Therefore, Manju must be the Korean territory now according to international law because it is sold to China illegaly by Japan. Currently, china argue on their own way that pronunciation of "Tomoon river" is similar to that of "Dooman river", and the current border follows "Mt. Bakdu monuent". However, it is wrong, and Manju must be return to Korea territory.

You are equating Gando with the whole of Dongbei. The entire Manchu people cannot be labelled Korean just because Gando was once part of Joseon Korea's territory.--SohanDsouza 11:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Entire Manchu was a Korean territory until 11th century, and Gando was a Korean territory until 19th century. after 11th century, west of manchu was chinese territory, and east of manchu was korean territory. In addition, I did not mention the people who currently live in Manchu. I just said that the land of Manchu. Gojoseon, Goguryeo, Balhae are the nation that are built on Manchu... At that time, Manchu is the territory of Korea, not of china. And The east side of Manchu, which can be said as Gando, was the territory of Silla, Goryeo, and Joseon.

It is joking, don't show off your Great Korean chauvinism!

Chinese historican can say Korea was a part of China!

SohanDsouza!!! You must learn more about the history of far east asia such as korea and china. You even dont know Goguryeo, Gojoseon and Balhae

These are fairly recent pronounciations of the name. There is no definitive evidence that the earlier dwellers of the Korean peninsula are the ancestors or progenitors of Korean culture/ethnicity. Remember that ancient social groups were fairly mobile. You can't say that the ancient Greeks in Antolia were Turks simply because it is now Turkish territory, nor can you say that the old Celtic settlers of modern day Slavic lands are Slavs. Whodhellknew 21:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Breathejustice you are missing the point here, this article is about the Manchu people, not the area equated with the name "Manchuria", please note that there is a difference, and please refrain from using Wikipedia as a soapbox for your crackpot ideas. Abstrakt 05:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Whoah, WHAT? USA?

Shouldn't the United States regiment part be put in another article? I do not think that American GIs have anything to do with the Manchu people. If nedd be, create another article or something. That paragraph is kind of an eye sore. -- User:Kangy

I agree. -- ran (talk) 23:41, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Banner system?

Can someone explain what the banner system is? Banner in English means "flag", but if that is the meaning here I can't make head or tail of some of the statements. For instance, A woman born to the White Banner was presumed to be spiritually gifted.. I cannot decipher what it means to be "born to the white flag".

I assume there is some greater astrological significance here, that banner refers not to flag, but to some other grouping, like "Year of the Horse" or "In the house of Aquarius". However the article does not explain any of this, nor is there an article on the topic that I can find.

Maury 13:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

The Banner system does not have anything to do with astrology. The Manchurians grouped their people into 8 Qi's ( qi is "flag" in Chinese) for military purposes. Each banner was named by a color - such as Prime Yellow, Prime Red, etc. The Prime Yellow Banner is the one to which the royal family belonged.--Manchurian Tiger 15:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

So what determines which flag you get? Maury 20:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The banner status is inherited. If one family was originally assigned to be a Prime Yellow, all the offsprings of this family will be Prime Yellow "Qi Ren (banner person)". Although originally designed as a military system, it later on became more of aa symbol of aristocracy. All Qi Ren enjoyed many priviliges including stipends from the royal court. The "upper three banners",which were under the direct command of the emperor, are considered higher of class than others: Prime Yellow, Prime White and "Xiang" Yellow (the yellow flag with red border strips).--Manchurian Tiger 22:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Manchu Infobox

Can someone knowledgeable about the relevant info/stats construct an infobox? Thanks! Fsotrain09 03:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Earlier History

The informations posted by Breathejustice has nothing to do with the people called "Manchu". It is not even about "Earlier History" of the manchu people. It is rather just a bunch of nationalistic Korean perspectives on how early Manchuria was ruled by Korean kingdom from time to time. What does that have to do with Manchus anyway? --Godardesque 04:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with the above. If the information needs to be included, it shouldn't be in this article and should be noted as a minority (very minor I hope) Korean perspective. Tortfeasor 05:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Jurchens and Malgal are subjective to Goguryeo. Every chinese and korean and japanese knows it. When Goguryeo attack Sui, Goguryeo went to china with Malgal and Jurchens. This fact is written in Manchu history book(滿洲原流考). why dont you read carefully (滿洲原流考). If you dont have, I can give it to you. this book is a bible to study the history of Manchu.

From the article "Manchu Yuanliu Kao and the formalization of the Manchu Heritage" by Pamela Kyle Crossley: "In pursuing the question of the local continuity of political tradition, Hongli raised the Bohais to central importance. On the issue of the Bohai script, however , Hongli's speculations were too obviously connected with his unstated insistence on autochthonous literary development in the the Northeast; there were in fact no relationship between Bohai, Kitan, or old Jurchen scripts, all derived from Chinese ,and the later Mongolian-Manchu script that ultimately derived from a Syriac script via Central Asia." While the Manchu Yuanliu Kao is an important source of information one should remember that it is not perfect document and was written with the pressures from the Qianlong court. More importantly it doesn't explain your map that has Paekjae(who's only recorded with Jin is the investure of the Paekjae King the rank of General Garrison the East and Prefect of Lelang and later again to his son) territory in the area that includes the Eastern Jin Capital and a large of portion of Japan. Buyeo should be in the Northwestern Part of Goguryeo, while Malgal(Mohe) territory should overlap with that of northern Goguryeo(and it should not be considered part of Goguryeo anymore than Paekjae should be considered part of Eastern Jin).

Therefore I believe that the map is a candidate for deletion —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cal guy (talk • contribs) .

According to Samkuk-yusa, Buyeo is north part of Goguryoe, so it is often called north buyeo because it is located in north of goguryoe. According to Manchu Yuanliu Kao, Jurchen had lived with Goguryeo, so they are not shown in this figure. Jurchens became independent when Balhae is destroyed. But the Figure is more earlier than Balhae is destroyed. So, it is correct figure and must not be removed.

From chinese history book of 宋書,

百濟者 後漸强大 兼諸小國 其國 本與句麗 在遼東之東 晋世 句麗旣略有遼東 百濟亦據有遼西晋平二郡地矣 今柳城北平之間 自治百濟郡 That is to say, Baejae become stronger and larger, and destroyed small contries. It it located at east side of Liadong (遼東), In the age of Jin (晋) (about 3th century), Goguryeo occupied already Liadong (遼東), And Baejae occupied West side of Liadong (遼西) and two county of Jinpyung (晋平二郡), They are located between Yusung and north of 平

Therefore, the figure is right.

Yeah, could you provide an electronic link to the the Chinese history book? (Hopefully it doesn't came from an Korean portal) I just think that this Korean nationalism is out of control, and these Wikipedia articles are doomed. --Godardesque 17:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I dont have electronic version of chinese history book. You can find it in your library of university via offline. I borrow the chinese history book in my university library. Why dont you carefully read it first, and then discuss with me. You even dont read any history book of your chinese stuffs. And I am not nationalist. You are nationalist because you remove the right article blindly without any survey. Do not vandalize.

If you can't provide an electonric link, the least you can do is to give an proper reference (MLA style or any others), which you have failed to do so. I called you a nationalist because the earlier references you gave came straight out of the Korean government agency, which is true, and then later on you or one of your allies delinked it.--Godardesque 18:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Godardesque: Maybe a sock puppet request? Although from my experience the check user people will just tell you that its a "content dispute" which means we just have to live with this kind of ridiculousness and fix it. And to be fair this sort of behavior isn't just limited to Koreans.

That being said, these additions should 1) not be in this specific article. And, 2) if it is included in the appropriate article, it should be noted as an extreme minority theory. And the map should probably go.

Also, primary sources are great. But, for Wikipedia to function, the encyclopedia doesn't accept personal interpretations of primary sources. Instead, reputable scholarly sources are needed. If not, than any nationalist could rewrite articles to fit their need. Thanks. Tortfeasor 18:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Why I should provide it electronic link. China dont support their history book online. Why dont you go to library and find it. I remove korea.net because you consider it as government site, and I want to let you know there is another website that describe such like that. Saying as nationalist because of that is attacking the pernality. And korea.net and asianinfo.org are not government site. See domain name. there are networking company or no-profit organization. if they are government site, they should be "org"

According to the About Korea.net page, Korea.net is "Run by the Korean Overseas Information Service (KOIS) of the Government Information Agency" in Korea. Also, 滿洲原流考 (Manchu Yuanliu Kao) may be consulted, but it is NOT a primary source of the 4th Century. The Twenty-Four Histories of China must be given higher priority regarding general topics of the time. 宋書 (Book of Song) is, of course, a primary source. Also the map details are unsourced and have Korean names in China and Japan (may violate Wikipedia naming conventions).

Details related to Korea, Gojoseon, Goguryeo, Buyeo (Fuyu), and Balhae (Bohai), if properly sourced, should be in those respective articles, and not in Manchuria-related articles.--Endroit 18:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

About the korean.net, it is my misunderstanding. I agree. So, I changed the reference.

Twenty four histories is a good source of chinese history. But it is written in Ming dynasty, and It is so sure that ming dynasty write correctly the history of Manchu. Everybody can know the reason. Ming is Han race and 金 and 淸 are history of Manchu. Therefore Good source of Manchu is 滿洲原流考 (Manchu Yuanliu Kao). This book is oriented to history of Manchu, and describe more details. It is written by Qing dynasty.

oh man, if you don't know, 24 histories is not written in Ming dynasty. Every Chinese dynasties wrote history of its previous one, if they think their previous dynasty is a "legal" one. How could Ming wrote its own history? Thus ming's history 明史 was written by Qing. And Qing's emperor regarded themsevles as Chinese emperor. They, like every Chinese dynasties, had a "legal" system which claimed that they were the direct heir of Xia/Shang/Zhou dynasties. Emperor Qianlong even prefer Song over Jin(Jurchens) as the "legal" one, even if Jin was created by his ancestors, know who he was? he had written many books/articles, do you want to have a look? Sure some manchus has some Goguryeo ancestors, but don't some Han Chinese also have Goguryeo ancestors? What you want, this article is about Manchu, not Goguryeo or Korea, why you dump here with these? 124.29.34.43 10:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, the History of Goguryeo and History of Balhae links (experiencefestival.com) in the Manchu article came directly from the Wikipedia itself. (See their bottom copyright section) They should not be considered as sources for this article, as themselves used the same wikipedia articles. --Godardesque 19:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I really don't understand why there are some Korean nationalists that try to claim the Manchus or the Jurchens as their own? It's obvious they are trying to claim a piece of Chinese civilization by claiming they conquered them but still I fail to see how that kind of logic works in the first place. The Manchus were very specific about themselves being descendants of the Jurchens. If they were supposedly Korean, why wasn't Korea included? Also both the Jurchens and Manchus warred against the Korean peninsula during their times. The Jurchens made numerous invasions into Koryo for example and the Qing with Joseon. For these Korean nationalists to claim the Manchus or Jurchens, they might as well as claim that Koreans conquered the world in the form of the Mongols or that they created the Ottoman Empire. Samarkand was a Korean city and the modern day Kazahks, Uighurs, and Hungarians are also Korean. It is as silly as listening to white nationalists arguing that Caucasoid peoples founded every great civilization in the world.

Well, this user just keeps coming back isn't it. He just changed a user name and came back to re-vandalize. --Godardesque 04:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you want to talk about why you keep adding these informations into the article, Breathejustice? They are just irrelevant to the informations presented here. --Godardesque 07:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

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Population numbers

According to the 1990 census 9,821,180 ethnic Manchus live in China.