Talk:Enyobeni Tavern disaster

Proposed renaming

The article name "East London, Eastern Cape tavern disaster" seems lengthy. I'd like to suggest a renaming of this article, perhaps to "East London tavern disaster"? elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 17:01, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

It was there originally, but someone thought it was confusing against London, England. The current name, with the tavern name, is even better than both of those so we should be good for a title now. Pikavoom ^Talk 05:45, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

I've boldly moved it from disaster to deaths, as disaster is extremely vague. BilledMammal (talk) 09:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Not sure that makes it any less vague, but the whole incident is vague. You'd expect them to have a cause of death by now, but it's still being investigated and media reports are not definitive either way. Pikavoom ^Talk 10:53, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

I've restored the original title of "East London tavern disaster", which is also the "status quo" as the first non-stub title. This seems the most decriptive and best at the moment. That said I have also inserted 2022 per WP:NCE.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Location

I have removed the coordinates, which pointed to a totally different nightclub in the area. The Facebook page for Enyobeni Tavern gives its address as 37219 scenery park phase 1, East London, South Africa, which I believe means that it is on 37th Road (or Street). The streets are not laid out in any order I can see, so I hope that another editor can find the place. Abductive (reasoning) 08:51, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

africtionary.com link

This link is being repeatedly readded by @Pitsraz:. In my opinion Wikipedia shouldn't link to outside dictionary sites without a good reason, and I don't see a good reason to link here. There must be a guideline about this, but these kind of links are usually just not done. Pikavoom ^Talk 15:54, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Blocked. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 16:47, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 28 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. For clarity (especially to avoid confusion with East London in the UK), concision, and consistency with other crowd disaster articles. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 21:05, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

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2022 East London tavern disaster → Enyobeni Tavern disaster – WP:NOYEAR. East London is England so people would be confused. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 01:39, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support Renaming would help clarify the location so it's not confused with London in England. Natalius (talk) 02:08, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
  • • Support I agree for this very reason. Titles should be clear, especially when dealing with location. --Joesom333 (talk) 18:37, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

  East London in this usage is a South African city which is clear in the article. However, I support a move for precision. thorpewilliam (talk) 05:12, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support, Seems a reasonable change. Regards, Ariconte (talk) 06:51, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
• Makes sense to me too, not for potential confusion but for clarity. Support. Gabrielbodard (talk) 06:58, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support Renaming would help remove confusion. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 10:38, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support - would be consistent with what seems to be the prevailing naming convention in Category:Disasters in nightclubs and its subcategories. - htonl (talk) 11:00, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. The year needs to remain in place, per instructions at WP:NCE, and also numerous debates on this subject such as at 2022 Buffalo shooting. NCE says "In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors: When the incident happened. Where the incident happened. What happened." Exceptions to this are only for very well-known events where the year is superfluous, something that doesn't apply here. East London is also correct, as that's the locality where it happened. Nobody has heard of the "Enyobeni Tavern", so that title will not be recognizable. Finally, there's no confusion with East London in the UK, as there has been no tavern disaster there. Per WP:PRECISE, the title only needs to identify the subject exclusively. It doesn't need to include extra information. The only other title I might consider is 2022 South Africa tavern disaster, as some reliable sources are describing it thus.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:30, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment: the existing articles on nightclub disasters do not seem to adhere to WP:NCE or your suggested application of WP:PRECISE. For example there are articles named Cocoanut Grove fire and The Station nightclub fire, not "1942 Boston nightclub fire" and "2003 Rhode Island nightclub fire". - htonl (talk) 12:10, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

    WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS I guess. Just because other articles are badly named, doesn't mean this one has to be. There's no point having a guideline if we're just going to ignore it.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

    WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a guideline for deletion discussions. WP:CONSISTENT says that article titles should be "consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles". The contents of Category:Disasters in nightclubs and its subcategories shows that "[name of venue] [type of event]" is by far the most common naming scheme. - htonl (talk) 12:34, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

    Not WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. What's happening here is a WP:CONSISTENT scenario: name the article after the venue it occurred. This pattern is followed by Blue Bird Café fire, The Station nightclub fire, Club Cinq-Sept fire, Happy Valley Racecourse fire, Knights of Columbus Hostel fire, Lame Horse fire, Thousand Oaks shooting, Ozone Disco fire, 2003 Peoples' Friendship University of Russia fire, Opémiska Community Hall fire, Kader Toy Factory fire, Kiss nightclub fire, Astroworld Festival crowd crush, Neutro Shorty concert stampede, Port Said Stadium riot, Ellis Park Stadium disaster, Oppenheimer Stadium disaster, Our Lady of the Angels School fire, Dolphinarium discotheque massacre, Ku Klux Klan raid of La Paloma nightclub, Stage Club bombing, etc. etc. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:17, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Neutral between East London and Enyobeni. The year is probably required per NCE. Overall, I would just Wait with most of the moves here. The nature of the deaths are unclear. I assume they will not remain a mystery. A much better discussion can be had in a couple of weeks when what actually happened will be clearer. Pikavoom ^Talk 11:42, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

  Weak support for Enyobeni, as it is consistent with other entries in List of human stampedes and crushes, including Throb nightclub disaster in South Africa. Media is also often referring to venue and not location, and looking at the Throb disaster for example it looks like media increased their use of venue references as time went by. I am neutral on the year if this is named for the venue, as from other entries it looks like for less significant venues there often isn't a year in the title as you don't expect another significant disaster at the same place. So it is 1994 Hajj stampede and 2004 Hajj stampede, but Throb nightclub disaster and Hillsborough disaster. Pikavoom ^Talk 08:47, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. Best to consider renaming after more information is gathered (and publicly released) from the initial investigation, and see how the WP:COMMONNAME name for the tragedy shakes out in the news media. Agree that "2022 ..." is helpfule, per WP:NCE. But "disaster" does not seem to the be right word for what when down here. N2e (talk) 14:31, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
• Comment As the East London this happened in is at East London, Eastern Cape, there needs to be some sort of disambig to make it clear it's the South African East London, and not the one in the England. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:33, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

  There is no Enyobeni Tavern that I know of in London England so "Enyobeni Tavern" would be the best choice. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 02:11, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Neutral because I don't believe "Disaster" is the right term here. I would go for "East London Tavern Deaths 2022" or something to that effect. CK CTZA (talk) 19:43, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support, looking at List of human stampedes and crushes, the name of the venue predominates. This reflects usage in the secondary sources, and is why the usual Wikipedia rules are not followed. Abductive (reasoning) 06:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Abductive:, at this point we are not sure it was a crush. Investigators are ruling out stampede and are looking at poisoning. For example Eastern Cape Community Safety MEC, Weziwe Tikana-Gxothiwe ruled it out because "there were three young people who were coming to speak to us when we got to the scene, and they fainted along the way. One of them has since died while en-route to hospital. This means what they consumed remained in their bodies".[1] If this were a crush, I would prefer a title like Astroworld Festival crowd crush. What makes any substantial move discussion here premature is that the only thing we know here for certain is that people died, the cause of death is currently undetermined, and investigators are actively saying this wasn't a stampede. Pikavoom ^Talk 06:38, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

It can only be a crush. Presumably the owner has the protection of corrupt local authorities and a criminal syndicate, how else do we explain the strange lack of arrests? Also, the word "disaster" is neutral on cause. Abductive (reasoning) 06:42, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Latest reporting is saying it may have been carbon monoxide poisoning, not a crush. - htonl (talk) 10:12, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Is "Abductive Reasoning" a synonym for "jumping to conclusions"? Captainllama (talk) 22:36, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support: Better than the current title. A lot of convincing examples cited here by Dunutubble and others. --MZMcBride (talk) 10:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support: I understand the concerns, but (as mentioned above) Dunutubble and others have provided some good examples in favour of this move. —QueenofBithynia (talk) 11:40, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom and others. Urban Versis 32^KB ⚡ ^{(talk | contribs)} 16:42, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Definitely a lot of confusion to be had and has already occurred Mebigrouxboy (talk) 00:53, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support per WP:CONSISTENT Captainllama (talk) 22:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose for now, and review when an alternative word to "disaster" has a consensus. The year is important, location is clear from the opening line of the article. BobKilcoyne (talk) 02:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Well but the point of a good title is so you don't *have* to start reading the article to figure out what it's about. Herostratus (talk) 10:32, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

• Support per WP:CONSISTENT. LefcentrerightDiscuss 12:01, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose I would have to say at this point. Here is some actual date: according to Google Trends, there's been an upsurge in googles of both "East London" and "Enyobeni", but East London's uptick is both greater and steeper. This is preliminary data. But if it holds, it would show that at least in our time, more people are looking for info on the event by googling a phrase containing "East London". This might suggest that we should hold off on any name change for the moment.

Another thing is, East London is not some cowtown. It has a metro population of 750,000 and is a famous city and port. It's certainly what I think of first when I hear the term "East London". I am familiar with the term "East End" (of London), mainly from the song, but that's different. I don't know if the city of East London is large enough to be known mononymously like Kansas City or Tallinn or Durban etc, but maybe. (It is true tho that the eastern half of London is our primary topic for searches on "East London", and if that's not a mistake it is a data point for making the change to avoid confusion).

For my part, I had never heard the term "Enyobeni" til I came to this thread, I had seen the headlines as just referring to some club in East London. Maybe that's just me, but the Goggle Trends data seems to indicate I'm not alone. If the editors advocating a name change can say the opposite -- that news of the event coming across their desks led with the name of the club before the city -- that'd be different. Can you?

Our rules are to aid, not bamboozle, the reader. Which do you think would be true of more readers: searching for material on this event, they see "2022 East London tavern disaster" and don't quickly realize it's (what they know of as the) Enyobeni disaster, or they see "Enyobeni Tavern disaster" and don't quickly realize that its (what they know of as the) East London disaster? If we're not sure it's the former maybe we should hold off. Herostratus (talk) 14:01, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

That's simply because of the influence of Wikipedia and the current title. Abductive (reasoning) 21:00, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Uh, that's extreeeeeemely dubious, and even if this was true, so what? We don't be like "Sure, this is the common term, but only because of influence from NBC and CBS"? Or the Times or the Wikipedia or anything else. It doesn't matter. Herostratus (talk) 03:53, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• Support Move would prevent confusion and establish clarity Kpddg ^(talk) 14:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support, per nom. ~ Quacks Like a Duck (talk) 17:40, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Support More in line with the articles on List of human stampedes and crushes, and would help clear up confusion about whether the tavern is in London, England. 66.165.1.180 (talk) 21:45, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

• alt support to "2022 Enyobeni Tavern disaster". East London is definitely confusing with eastern part of London, England. We should add the year to make it consistent with other mass death articles (shootings, stampedes, disasters, et al). —usernamekiran (talk) 20:39, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What is normal in South Africa for public release of information?

It has been five full days now since the night of the tragedy. 24 bodies have been taken and examined by the standard medical examiner/coroner offices of South Africa; conceivably with much medical knowledge now known by those offices of the government. Being not from South Africa (but a visitor there), am wondering if this slow release of information to the public after a multiple-death incident is normal in South Africa. Is this standard? Is it unusual?

Seems like this delay/slow public info release might helpfully be a topic for the Wikipedia article to cover/mention. Perhaps even something like: "Five days after the tragedy, no causes of death have been publicly released by South African medical examiner authorities, as is normal for multiple death cases in the country." ... or, something else if this delay is unusual. N2e (talk) 00:27, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

If it is unusual, notable neutral sources will say so, and then we can quote or paraphrase them. I'm not sure there are enough events like this for there to be a "usual". Herostratus (talk) 10:28, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I understand that this particular case there is an actually a bit of a mystery and disagreement between officials on what caused this. If this was some kind of poisoning, that's something that could take a long time to investigate without an obvious source of poison. Pikavoom ^Talk 10:32, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Teenagers or people?

In an edit teenagers have been changed to people in the lead. In my opinion teenagers or children is more informative than people. As in Throb nightclub disaster, the victims here were all young people and most sources covering the disaster are describing the victims in this way and there are also sources on parenting and how to prevent young people from sneaking out to clubs as well as sources on underage drinking. Pikavoom ^Talk 07:58, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Nyala

There is, in the investigation section, the following:

A police RG-12 (Nyala: a type of armored vehicle)

I feel like the parenthetical note might be a machine-translated passage from a non-English source perhaps? The use of the non-English “Nyala” is confusing to me here and I wonder whether it needs to be translated or perhaps the whole parenthetical removed since a reader could simply follow (or even hover over) the link for an explanation of the term RG-12. D A Hosek (talk) 03:48, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Nyala is used in South African English. Initially it was Nyala with RG-12 in the parenthetical, I will switch it back. Pikavoom ^Talk 06:43, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Three months on: still no definitive cause of death from the "investigation"

Today is 26 September, three months after the tragic incident at the Enyobeni Tavern. The article still does not reflect any definitive cause of death from the "investigation" by South African government authorities.

Is this because something is wrong with the government? Cover up? They just still haven't gotten around to running diagnostic tests on the blood and bodies of the deceased? Is is just politically expedient for mass death investigations to work this way in South Africa? Something else?

Or is this something missing in Wikipedia? Where no editor has located the various reliable sources that cover the publicly-released results of the South African government and their medical examiners/coroners? ... then used that public info to improve the article? N2e (talk) 11:52, 26 September 2022 (UTC)