Talk:City

Word missing

There is a word missing from this sentence under Internal Structure: In cities such as and also Moscow, this pattern is still clearly visible. KannD86 (talk) 15:36, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Distinction between cities and towns - split?

A tag was placed into this section, suggesting that a new article be carved out from it. Is there enough material to do so? What's currently here suggests that there's not. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 11:27, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Sorry if I worded it wrong. What I was looking to do is a series of tables and information on the differing legal definitions of what constitutes a city. For example, in New Hampshire, a city is a municipal body that has a mayor (towns and unincorporated places do not.) But in other states such as Alabama, to my understanding, the legal definition is based entirely on population. And in other parts of the world, there are other methods in determining what exactly is a city. So far, I can't find anyplace on Wikipedia that has this information.

add me one snap fw.dash, but probably too much for the main article. However, I was not sure if the community thought a separate article as a resource would be warranted. South Nashua (talk) 15:36, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh I see. I can see the value of a resource like that, although the optimal approach (to me) would be to find that on external sites (if they exist) and link to them for the reader's further research. Building such a resource here would be quite an endeavor, although with good sourcing, it would be of encyclopedic value, as far as I can see. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 18:27, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Cool, I'll get going on it. Ultimately what you're talking about was the main part of what I was thinking of, specifically, providing external links to pages with the laws specifying the jurisdictional legal definitions. I think it would be really useful once it's done and I know where to find at least a few of them to begin. Thanks for your input here. South Nashua (talk) 21:05, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

North of the border we have List of cities in Canada that does (or should) distinguish between city status by province and territory while also listing all cities within each. List of cities in the United States is a dab and emulating the Canadian list would be tough since there are thousands of cities in the US. The article would be huge. Without looking at what you've started working on yet, how about an article along the lines of City status in the United States that explains what city status is in all fifty states with main article links to city lists by state? Hwy43 (talk) 22:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

That might be a good idea. Once I'm done there, I could add a hub article or as you said, just add this onto the existing lists of cities. South Nashua (talk) 14:29, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Ultimately, what I want to do has come from the fact that I grew up in a New Hampshire town that is larger in population than most of its cities. Yet there were some people that called it a city and some people that called it a town. I think it would be a good idea to differentiate and explain the differences. Both in New Hampshire and ultimately, everywhere. South Nashua (talk) 14:30, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Such a distinction literally does not exist where I live (North Carolina). From the NC League of Municipalities website: "In North Carolina, cities, towns and villages are incorporated municipalities. An incorporated municipality means the North Carolina General Assembly (or, in a few cases, a former state agency known as the Municipal Board of Control) has granted a charter authorizing the establishment of a municipal corporation (government) and outlining the powers, authority and responsibilities of the municipal government. Some of these are specified in the charter and some are authorized by state statutes.

The charter designates whether a municipality will be known as a city, a town or a village. There is no legal difference in the designations. It is a matter of the preferences of the residents. There are cities of 1,000 residents, and towns with populations greater than 100,000." (www.nclm.org/resource-center/Pages/How-Municipalities-Work.aspx) --Khajidha (talk) 12:40, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry to reopen an old thread, but I also came to this article trying to find international definitions that distinguish a town from a city. In England and Wales, historically, "city" has been nothing to do with size, instead:

• a hamlet is a geographically close collection of houses
• a village is a hamlet with a church
• a town is a village with a market
• a city is a town with a cathedral

...but even in E&W, in modern times, there have been settlements granted city status that did not yet have a cathedral. It seems to me that the article would benefit from a couple of extra paragraphs explaining the distinction between town and city (or LACK of distinction) as experienced in the English-speaking world (because this is the English language WP).

This could be solved by linking to City status earlier in the article and with more emphasis. Andrew Oakley (talk) 11:08, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

A cathedral has not been the relevant qualification for a century or more. (and Rochester in Kent has a cathedral but legally is a constituent town of Medway).

But remember this is the English language Wikipedia, not the English Wikipedia. UK readers are very much in the minority. City status in the United Kingdom is highly anomalous by world standards. The tail should not expect to wag the dog. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:32, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

I've read the city status article and I have no idea what it is trying to say or what this status is.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:02, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

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List

Is there a list of all cities of all countries, with a unique code per city (with a population greater than 2,000 or it has an airport with an IATA code)? So we can easily populate lists and that if a city changes its name then we can still keep referencial integrity to it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.201.33.24 (talk) 18:39, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Palitana Image

Why are we using a picture of Palitana to demonstrate what a city is? Because Palitana is so pilgrimage-dependent, it seems like a strange choice to model the typical city. Mcavoybickford (talk) 21:44, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Sentence makes no sense

The last sentence of the intro (the last sentence of the 3rd paragraph of the article) makes no sense, unless I am overlooking something. Here is what it says: "Another example of relative age, is in the age of the oldest capital cities of the superpower and emerging superpower, they are the U.S. state capital of Santa Fe, New Mexico, and the Chinese prefecture capital of Xi'an, Shaanxi." Josh Theta (talk) 02:06, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree. It needs either further explanation, or deletion. Even the previous sentence doesn't seem to offer much. Those two sentences are the only place in the article where the term "relative age" is used. It isn't defined, and the examples given don't help me to understand what the writer meant by it. I'd be happy to see both sentences disappear. HiLo48 (talk) 02:14, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Done. --Khajidha (talk) 15:44, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I think it probably lost meaning after the rest of the paragraph was restructured. I attempted to correct it, but the edits were reverted. I also tried to correct some incorrect lists, and to back them with sources. But I guess that didn't help. Here are those fixes that I tried, for someone to potentially fix in the future. I can't be the only one to think it would be important to show some regional capital examples, as well as ancient cities in the Western hemisphere.

Other important traits of cities besides population include the capital city status and relative continued occupation of the city. For example, country capitals such as Beijing, London, Mexico City, Moscow, Nairobi, New Delhi, Paris, Rome, Seoul, Tokyo, and Washington, D.C. reflect the identity as national capitals. Some historic capitals, such as Kyoto in Japan's Kyoto Prefecture, Santa Fe in the US state of New Mexico, and Xi'an in China's Shaanxi province, maintain their reflection of cultural identity as regional capitals. There are former national capitals, like Alexandria and New York City, that continue to be globally recognized cultural and economic hubs. Religious holy sites offer another example of capital status within a religion, Vatican City, Varanasi, and Bodhgaya each hold significance. The old world cities of Jericho, Damascus, Aleppo, and Athens are among those laying claim to the longest continual inhabitation, while in the Americas among the oldest new world settlements are Cholula near Puebla, Florés in Petén, Oraibi near Kykotsmovi Village, and Acoma near Albuquerque.

Refs

71.228.115.97 (talk) 13:35, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Urban ecology section needs balance

The section on urban ecology includes extensive discussion of the ecological and health detriments of cities without commensurate discussion of the benefits. In particular, the sentence "From one perspective, cities are not ecologically sustainable due to their resource needs" needs contextualization: is this comparing cities to rural areas or central cities to suburbs? What is assumed about global population and consumption in the absence of cities?

The section should mention the large and growing literature showing that compact development in central cities has lower environmental impact than sprawling development, and in particular, has lower carbon footprints in Western cities.

In addition, the discussion of health might mention that in Western countries, health and life expectancy is now higher in central cities than in suburbs and rural areas.

Zsubin (talk) 20:47, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Lead image

I recently swapped out the image of the Eiffel Tower in the lead for one of Times Square, and John Maynard Friedman reverted. Although the Eiffel Tower is certainly a highly recognizable landmark around the world, I don't think it connotes a sense of urbanism as well as Times Square. What do others think? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:36, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I reverted per WP:BRD because I think it a significant change that needs discussion. The caption on the Paris image has a citation, so that gives it a head start over an "I think this one would be better". But if a dense urban area is preferred, surely Hong Kong or Shanghai would be more apt? Or shanty bairros around Rio de Janeiro? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 21:20, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Hong Kong or Shanghai could certainly work; I selected File:Pudong Shanghai November 2017 panorama.jpg for Human history#21st century. The favelas around Rio would be an interesting choice given how poor they are; that raises the question of whether it's better to go with a less-developed city to represent how the majority of the world's urban residents actually live or a more-developed city to represent the pinnacle of what cities can become.

Thinking about this, actually the best solution might be to do a collage of a diverse group of cities around the world. Would you be interested in helping compile some photos for it? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:32, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Here's a gallery of some possible images:

• 
  Westminster Hall, London
• 
  Westminster Hall, London (another option)
• 
  Klagenfurt, Austria
• 
  Favela in Rio
• 
  Another favela
• 
  A third favela option
• 
  A fourth favela option
• 
  Sao Paulo
• 
  Moscow
• 
  Tokyo's Shibuya Crossing
• 
  Shanghai
• 
  Times Square
• 
  Pissarro painting of Paris, fall
• 
  Pissarro painting of Paris, Spring
• 
  Paris
• 
  Caillebotte painting of Paris
• 
  Royal Avenue, Belfast
• 
  Hong Kong
• 
  London (historical)
• 
  Bosa, Sardinia, Italy
• 
  Sao Paulo metro
• 
  London Tube
• 
  Market in Luxor, Egypt
• 
  Market in Nuremburg
• 
  Street in Delhi
• 
  Tokyo
• 
  Market in Lagos, Nigeria
• 
  New York City
• 
  New York City
• 
  New York City
• 
  Wetzlar, Hesse, Germany
• 
  Bonn, Germany
• 
  Bandra Worli Sea-Link in Mumbai
• 
  Boston, Massachusetts, U.S.
• 
  Interchange in Shanghai, China

Whew, that's a bunch. A bunch of these may be able to appear elsewhere in the article if not the infobox collage. We're spoiled for choices here. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:04, 13 July 2021 (UTC)^{Additional photos added after}

Left to right, from top: Westminster Palace in London, Shibuya Crossing in Tokyo, painting of the Boulevard Montmartre in Paris by Camille Pissarro, the Rocinha favela in Rio di Janeiro, 6th Avenue in Manhattan, spice market in Old Delhi, Hong Kong, the São Paulo Metro

Okay, here's my proposed collage. It took quite a while to balance, but I think it came out well. Geographically, we've got 3 Asia, 2 Europe, 1 North America, 2 South America, and no Africa. Thoughts? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 00:56, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, please! A collage is so much better than just one image for this article. In particular, a single photo from a European capital city would just reinforce the Global North bias that Wikipedia has. For the proposed collage, we do need about 2 photos from Africa though (if you have a total of 9 photos). Having 3 from America but zero from Africa wouldn't be right. Second question is do we only want to show the beautiful parts of a city or also its problems, like gridlock traffic, air pollution and informal settlements? However, then we'd have the dilemma if we showed an informal settlement of an African city we would reinforce the stereotype that Africa equals problems. For comparison, we had a very long discussion on the talk page of sustainable energy until we found a collage of 4 photos from around the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sustainable_energy/Archive_5#Swap_images_in_the_lead?) I also worked for a long time on the collage that we used for marine biology. EMsmile (talk) 03:05, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Glad to hear the support for a collage! I've gone ahead and boldly added it, and we can refine further as needed.

I'm open to adding an image from Africa if we can find a good one. I searched a fair bit, though, and nothing really stood out. The two Africa photos I found above are the Egyptian market one and the Lagos market one. We could swap out the current market one for one of those, but I'm not sure India deserves representation any less than Egypt, and the Lagos one isn't a particularly good photo. Overall, so long as the photos have global reach, I don't think we need strict quotas.

Regarding which aspects of cities to feature, I agree it should have a balance (we pursued a similar goal for Washington, D.C.). Currently, the Rio favelas and the Delhi market are representing poorer cities, and there's a mix of skylines and streetscapes. A gridlock photo such as File:Traffic congestion Jl Asia Afrika Bandung.jpg or File:Kazi Nazrul Islam Ave Road, Dhaka. .jpg could work, but I think a metro is a bit better for a transit photo, as traffic jams can happen outside cities whereas metros are unique to them. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 04:08, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

That's good that you've made the swap. I am still arguing for a picture from Africa - if we want an "iconic" one, we could take one of Cape Town with Table Mountain... Otherwise Nairobi or Kampala probably also have a few in Wikimedia Commons. I would replace the Sao Paulo Metro one which would be more suited for an article on public transport. Another option is to look at the article megacity which has lots of good photos of cities, and we could take one from there (should our photos show only cities, not megacities? Or is city the overarching term anyhow?). Also by the way, I looked also at village and town. Almost all of the photos that appear in their leads are from Europe. It feels like Wikipedia is just by Europeans for Europeans. Do you have energy/interest to also add some pictures from Africa, Asia and Latin America to those articles? Bit by bit we can help reduce the Global North focus of Wikipedia... (is there a WikiProject for that? "WikiProject Global South" perhaps?) EMsmile (talk) 10:43, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I like this change in principle but agree that sub-Saharan Africa and South America need including. Indeed if we had just one image from each continent (except two for Asia), it would be a good balance of geographic representation v. size of the composite image (think of the mobile reader). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:23, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

• I may be gong against popular opinion here, but I don't like the collage. It is too busy, the images are too small and some of the pictures don't even show a city (i.e. the train one and one is a painting). I would prefer a single image or at most two or three. Aircorn (talk) 02:08, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I do like collages for the leads (and for this article) but I agree with Aircorn that this collage of 9 images is perhaps a bit too much. Cut it down to 5 or 6? In addition, I think the balance of regions is not right (see previous comment). I would take out some of the European ones, remove the train one and rather add one from Africa. There'll be heaps of pretty photos of Cape Town in Wikimedia Commons, I am sure. Or Nairobi or Kampala or Ouagadougou... (sorry for just commenting but not putting the hard work in myself to actually select photos that fit, trying out what looks nice together etc. Hoping that someone else will do that. :-) ).EMsmile (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Top to bottom: Pudong Shanghai, View of Cape Town from the Terraces building, Petare slums in Caracas

@EMsmile: What about this. Aircorn (talk) 22:15, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

@Aircorn:, I like your collage of three images and could live with them for the city article. I am just wondering if it's a bit "unfair" not to use any of the images that were selected earlier? Is 3 images perhaps too few? Also would someone from Latin America say that "we don't just have slums in Latin America, why do you always pick a slum picture when it's from South America?" I guess it's not really a slum-slum (despite what it says in the caption) just a different forum of living. (Could be clarified in the caption that would be used for the collage) - And should we show also people, not just buildings? Not sure. I guess it gets just too hard if we apply too many criteria... - Also, please take a look at the images used for town and village as well. Again, they are very European centric. There is also the article on mega city which doesn't have good imagery in the lead. EMsmile (talk) 02:56, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

There is never going to be the perfect solution. Personally I would be happy with just one decent image of a city, which I feel any of the three fulfill plus many others. However I acknowledge that collages are popular choices here. I think the only real criteria is that it needs to unambiguously show a city. For example the train image above is an image of a metro and there is also a market. Sure metros and markets are in cities, but they fit better in sections within the article, not as a lead picture. I don't know about using the previously selected images. You could swap one out for Hong Kong or London easily enough. I like Shanghai because it is a featured picture and one of the largest cities in the world, Cape Town was mentioned above and I looked for something different for the third. I am not overly fussed on which images are chosen though, as long as it is not too crowded and they are relevant for a lead image. Aircorn (talk) 22:36, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi there, just trying to rap this up / bring it to a conclusion / establish consensus. I am now in favour of the 3 images as proposed by Aircorn as it's more plain and less busy than the current collage. How would you Sdkb feel about this? I do think the new proposition has its merits. It's simpler, less Euro-centric, less on tangents (like trains and markets). EMsmile (talk) 10:32, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, but that doesn't look like a good option to me. The top image is nice, but neither of the bottom two are particularly compelling, and as a whole it just doesn't work well as an assemblage with the different image heights and sole use of skylines rather than streetscapes. I'm not sure why you continue to assert that the present collage is Eurocentric when only 2/8 images are from Europe and only 3/8 from the Western world. I also don't view the metro and market images as "tangents". A good collage illustrates various different aspects of city life, not just skylines, and crowded markets/urban transportation are quintessential signifiers of urban life. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:52, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually, my bad, it's only 2 images from Europe but because the one from London is the top one it sticks out a lot. It would be more suited if the article was about London. I think we should rather have images that are not as "iconic" (like the others that are in the collage or those that have been proposed by Aircorn). Also I think we definitely don't need this one: "painting of the Boulevard Montmartre in Paris by Camille Pissarro" (why even include the name of the painter?)". I think if you try to show various aspects of city life this gets too complicated. Who defines which aspects are important? You could say you'd need a photo of nightlife, a photo of arts & culture, universities etc. Crowded markets: OK, maybe but those markets also exist in towns and villages. A photo of a subway is not required/useful/essential IMHO. Aircon felt that the current number of images is too much / too busy, and I tend to agree with that view. So my proposal would be to replace the London image with one of the 3 proposed by Aircorn. Delete the painting image. Remove the São Paulo Metro. Those are just my suggestions. Would be happy to discuss further and to hear from more people if anyone else is watching? EMsmile (talk) 08:27, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Groton (city and town)

Then there's the City of Groton (Connecticut), which is a small part of the Town of Groton.... 104.153.40.58 (talk) 01:24, 14 August 2021 (UTC)