Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/NovelAI: Difference between revisions
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*::Regarding the non-English sources, for the purpose of aiding with [[WP:V]], I've translated a few citations into English. I have one thing I'd like to point out: One of the quotes use the word "[[wikt:おかしい|おかしい]]", which if we're talking about literal dictionary definitions, would mean "strange", "suspicious", "weird"; however in the context of internet colloquial speech, it's actual real-world usage is more akin to "that's fucked up, bro", or "that's screwed up", "that's messed up". I've used a more closer-to-real-world translation for this sentence, but feel free to adjust it if anyone thinks it doesn't match the tone of an encyclopedia article. --[[User:benlisquare|<span style="font-family:Monospace;padding:1px;color:orange">'''benlisquare'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:benlisquare|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benlisquare|C]]•[[Special:EmailUser/User:Benlisquare|E]]</sub> 07:58, 12 October 2022 (UTC) |
*::Regarding the non-English sources, for the purpose of aiding with [[WP:V]], I've translated a few citations into English. I have one thing I'd like to point out: One of the quotes use the word "[[wikt:おかしい|おかしい]]", which if we're talking about literal dictionary definitions, would mean "strange", "suspicious", "weird"; however in the context of internet colloquial speech, it's actual real-world usage is more akin to "that's fucked up, bro", or "that's screwed up", "that's messed up". I've used a more closer-to-real-world translation for this sentence, but feel free to adjust it if anyone thinks it doesn't match the tone of an encyclopedia article. --[[User:benlisquare|<span style="font-family:Monospace;padding:1px;color:orange">'''benlisquare'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:benlisquare|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benlisquare|C]]•[[Special:EmailUser/User:Benlisquare|E]]</sub> 07:58, 12 October 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=NovelAI&oldid=1115601797 the current version]. I think the coverage shown in the article more than meets GNG. Regarding Japanese sources, GNG can be met with articles in ''any'' language. The "significant coverage" does not have to be in English. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:darkgreen;">日本穣</span>]] · <small>[[Special:Contributions/Nihonjoe|<span style="color:blue;">投稿</span>]] · [[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]] · [[WP:JA|<span style="color:maroon;">Join WP Japan</span>]]!</small> 18:51, 12 October 2022 (UTC) |
*'''Keep''' based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=NovelAI&oldid=1115601797 the current version]. I think the coverage shown in the article more than meets GNG. Regarding Japanese sources, GNG can be met with articles in ''any'' language. The "significant coverage" does not have to be in English. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:darkgreen;">日本穣</span>]] · <small>[[Special:Contributions/Nihonjoe|<span style="color:blue;">投稿</span>]] · [[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]] · [[WP:JA|<span style="color:maroon;">Join WP Japan</span>]]!</small> 18:51, 12 October 2022 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep''', there are some reliable Chinese news sources in the entry. --[[User:Dqwyy|dqwyy]] ([[User talk:Dqwyy|talk]]) 13:50, 14 October 2022 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:50, 14 October 2022
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- NovelAI (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:NCORP: Lack of notability as a company outside of primary and Japanese sources and has no significant coverage (the article uses Twitter and the company's website as sources); WP:PROMOTION because a number of other similar commercial AI subscription services exist and have been mentioned in TechCrunch/Newswire (which this article heavily relies on as their only secondary sources) and yet this is the only one that has an article and ostensibly does not do anything particularly groundbreaking or notable (c.f. Stable Diffusion or 15.ai, which are notable); lack of citations for numerous claims and significant WP:OR; potential WP:COI due to suspicious activity when AfD/proposed deletion tags were placed on the article.
It should also be noted that there is a very large amount of WP:SPA going on with the article. Users Noble93, Cebbec78 (potentially a WP:SOCK of Noble93 due to the same naming pattern) are some editors who have created a Wikipedia account just to make edits to this one article, as well as IP accounts from 93.239.148.132, 94.22.206.174, 175.159.124.34, 2a02:9b0:802d:79d6:70f8:b154:b749:d7eb whose only edits are for this one article. The whole article reeks of blatant WP:PROMOTION with not-so-hidden efforts to conceal this using multiple accounts.
Throwaway21239 (talk) 11:34, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2022 October 11. —cyberbot ITalk to my owner:Online 11:58, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- Weak keep: Likely meets WP:GNG based on third-party coverage in Japanese and Taiwanese news sources such as Yahoo! News Japan and United Daily News; WP:NONENG states that while English-language sources are preferred on the English Wikipedia, citing non-English sources is still allowed. As a native Chinese speaker and intermediate Japanese speaker, I can provide translations if requested. I'd also like to point out that the page receives just under 2,000 pageviews per day, so clearly someone is searching for it, although that isn't evidence of notability in itself. If there are WP:OR, WP:PROMOTION or WP:COI concerns, these issues can potentially be resolved by any editors who wish to clean up the article. --benlisquareT•C•E 12:00, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- >I'd also like to point out that the page receives just under 2,000 pageviews per day, so clearly someone is searching for it, although that isn't evidence of notability in itself.
- It should be noted that the NovelAI was previously included under the "See also" pages for the very popular DALL-E and Midjourney articles, which would explain the viewcounts per day. The references have since been removed from those pages, so it would be of interest to see the subsequent change in pageviews per day. Throwaway21239 (talk) 12:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- You removed the links on 9 October, but the page views were still high on 10 October, so there’s probably an offsite link bringing people to the article. And these people are likely already interested in NovelAI, and so will often want to make some change to the article. And most won’t have Wikipedia accounts, so we get lots of edits by IPs and new single-purpose accounts. There’s nothing suspicious about this. (And by the way, it looks a bit odd for someone with a single-purpose account to complain about other people using single-purpose accounts.) --Zundark (talk) 14:42, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- To be fair, I did suggest to the nominator to create an account, since they mentioned on the article talk page that they were unable to start the AfD nom as an IP editor; they have had edits in the past. --benlisquareT•C•E 22:04, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- You removed the links on 9 October, but the page views were still high on 10 October, so there’s probably an offsite link bringing people to the article. And these people are likely already interested in NovelAI, and so will often want to make some change to the article. And most won’t have Wikipedia accounts, so we get lots of edits by IPs and new single-purpose accounts. There’s nothing suspicious about this. (And by the way, it looks a bit odd for someone with a single-purpose account to complain about other people using single-purpose accounts.) --Zundark (talk) 14:42, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 12:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:NCORP. None of the WP:SIRS criteria seem to be met, and the article reads like a press release. As someone who has kept up with the AI landscape for years, I'd never heard of NovelAI before while I hear about Stable Diffusion nonstop, and it appears that NovelAI just uses a custom implementation of SD... How exactly is this any different from any of the other countless AI companies that offer similar services? — HackerKnownAs (talk) 13:17, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Delaware-related deletion discussions. dudhhr talk contribs (he/they) 14:46, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- I have to add that NovelAI did exist long before Stable Diffusion, it was a mainly text gpt type service. AI landscape- you mean like image side and not language model? NAI was created as a directly respond to downfall-of-AI-dungeon. And also were involved in training a GPT-NeoX-20B, the biggest public-access language model, on the paper, not specifically the novelai itself, but its creator: Eren Doğa. Not to mention that anlatan(novelai) made a joint venture with CoreWeave, I would say coreweave are pretty important player in modern ai scene, after all, they make the public 20 billions model possible.
- Anyway tho, it's true that I'm single purpose account. But what can I do? Most of us never touch wiki, it's only by the popularity in japan that someone decided to make a page for it. Depsite already existed for 1 and half years.
- My counter point would be, if AI Dungeon page exist, then should the NovelAI. They are literally counterpart in the same audience. Everyone in ai-storytelling scene know about it, at least for attentive users anyway. It's usually AIdungeon, NovelAI, HoloAI, KoboldAI(open-source). This is our circle.
- Also on the notable(stuff?), isn't the point of this page was that Japnness people were so mad and so atonshing that NovelAI mangaged to generate high-quailty anime-like ai image? That was the point.
- I know 0 sh*t about how wiki work, so I'll leave that to the professional, and it's understable that you guys editor probably don't know much about text ai scene. But as contributor of it, this is what I had to say. And I'm pretty airhead if I were to edit this, I have no idea where to start...
- Lack of citations... I gusses I kidda get that where came from. Because NAI and others-ai-text-service are pretty standalone venture, had specific audience. And nobody bother to do any publicity(service speak for itself) nor did the journalist wants to write on it or anything(not the most excited thing in the world.) Andddd public large language model aren't actually 'public'. They require $25,000 gpus to run, so only corporate can 'actually' run it. Which is why it's not boom like StableDifusion did. Thank to low-memory-architecture on difusion I suppose. Or maybe people just can't read, and were more excited on good picture. Pumegit (talk) 20:41, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- oops wrong reply location, ehh Pumegit (talk) 20:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- The difference between NovelAI and AI Dungeon is that the latter has an abundance of significant coverage (just check the references there) while the former struggles to try to meet the standards of notability. For example, the entire "Incidents" section relies on a single reference to a Twitter post made by NovelAI's account, which makes it an unreliable primary source (WP:RSPRIMARY). At best, there could be a mention of NovelAI in the article for Stable Diffusion, but as is, it clearly is not notable enough for its own article at this time. —HackerKnownAs (talk) 22:34, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oh well, after talking to the developers and researchers. They don't like the wiki page as it is right now. It's quite inaccurate and don't really represent what NovelAI is. Image generation is just a side project and aren't suppose to take the main stage, because they are mainly text-generation/storytelling service. They don't mind having it remove.
- I'll be taking a neutral stand now, it needs a ton of efforts(articles?) to make it actually represent NovelAI. In the mean time, the event of AI art debate in japan is quite large too, which is why this page was created to begin with. But that's not what NovelAI is. Pumegit (talk) 19:38, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
- The developers aren't supposed to "like" the Wikipedia article. They don't own the Wikipedia article, nor are they allowed to exert influence over the article content. If there are information gaps, it's up to third-party sources to pick up the slack. Have them go talk to tech journalists or something, complaining about the Wikipedia article being inaccurate when the sourcing simply isn't available is tantamount to just pounding sand. The image generation takes centre stage in the Wikipedia article because that's all the third-party sourcing ever talks about; even if the text generation models should be covered more, that simply cannot happen due to the reality that sourcing is utterly lacking in that area. --benlisquareT•C•E 20:24, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, apology. I'm not familiar with how Wikipedia works. So they require third-party sources not the first-party themselves, I see. Pumegit (talk) 06:06, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
- The developers aren't supposed to "like" the Wikipedia article. They don't own the Wikipedia article, nor are they allowed to exert influence over the article content. If there are information gaps, it's up to third-party sources to pick up the slack. Have them go talk to tech journalists or something, complaining about the Wikipedia article being inaccurate when the sourcing simply isn't available is tantamount to just pounding sand. The image generation takes centre stage in the Wikipedia article because that's all the third-party sourcing ever talks about; even if the text generation models should be covered more, that simply cannot happen due to the reality that sourcing is utterly lacking in that area. --benlisquareT•C•E 20:24, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
- Comment, weak delete or delete and rewrite You say (I added some emphasis for certain parts of your rationale):
Lack of notability as a company outside of primary and Japanese sources and has no significant coverage (the article uses Twitter and the company's website as sources)
I agree about the issue with primary sources but is there any policy against non-English sources?WP:PROMOTION because a number of other similar commercial AI subscription services exist and have been mentioned in TechCrunch/Newswire (which this article heavily relies on as their only secondary sources)
Flawed argument, but it is almost certainly promotion because of the way it is written.and yet this is the only one that has an article and ostensibly does not do anything particularly groundbreaking or notable (c.f. Stable Diffusion or 15.ai, which are notable)
I don't have a reliable source but going by my Google search results, NovelAI is pretty much the first company with a successful image generation model specifically for anime.lack of citations for numerous claims and significant WP:OR; potential WP:COI due to suspicious activity when AfD/proposed deletion tags were placed on the article.
Valid point.
- FWIW, the IP editors you have named are operating from Germany, Finland, Hong Kong, and Saudi Arabia respectively. But given their editing history, they may be either different employees sockpuppeting for the company. Tube·of·Light 05:04, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
- Regarding the non-English sources, for the purpose of aiding with WP:V, I've translated a few citations into English. I have one thing I'd like to point out: One of the quotes use the word "おかしい", which if we're talking about literal dictionary definitions, would mean "strange", "suspicious", "weird"; however in the context of internet colloquial speech, it's actual real-world usage is more akin to "that's fucked up, bro", or "that's screwed up", "that's messed up". I've used a more closer-to-real-world translation for this sentence, but feel free to adjust it if anyone thinks it doesn't match the tone of an encyclopedia article. --benlisquareT•C•E 07:58, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
- Keep based on the current version. I think the coverage shown in the article more than meets GNG. Regarding Japanese sources, GNG can be met with articles in any language. The "significant coverage" does not have to be in English. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:51, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, there are some reliable Chinese news sources in the entry. --dqwyy (talk) 13:50, 14 October 2022 (UTC)