Talk:Sexual orientation

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2019 and 2 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Yangxinxin0407.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:06, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Is there really a consensus

conversation is clearly not going anywhere, do not add onto it or modify it.

Okay I’m honestly a little scared to comment this because I know this topic is personal to many people but, the article says this. whereas the scientific consensus is that sexual orientation is not a choice.[13][14][15] here’s the thing none of those sources ever said there was a consensus. Yes those sources do indeed say that many professionals think it’s not a choice and is influenced by many factors. However, saying there is a consensus is honestly original research. Wikipedia shouldn’t say there is a consensus unless a source directly says there is a consensus.CycoMa (talk) 03:28, 17 August 2021 (UTC) I’m not sure about saying most medical organizations agree sexual orientation is not a choice. I assume the reason the sources don’t say there is a consensus is because many medical organizations in religious countries are anti gay. This also probably includes countries like China or India.CycoMa (talk) 06:00, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Yes, there is really a consensus among reliable sources who have actually studied and reported on it, and it is overwhelming. Of course you can find any number of sources, even sources reliable for some topics, on the other side but those are merely opinion, and not based on anything other than belief, or they are fringe science. So as far as stating something in Wikipedia's voice, it depends how you word it. You could say something like, "Whatever the factors that go to make it up, whether biological or otherwise, sexual orientation is innate and not a matter of choice by the individual," and then add a couple of books or journal articles supporting it. To indicate that there is societal disagreement on the topic, you could (and probably should) add something like, "There are numerous groups and individuals who believe the opposite; these are typically advocacy groups which promote a position for political, cultural, or religious reasons, and are found disproportionately among the Christian right and are not based in any scientific study," and then source that as well. Given the controversial nature of the topic, I wouldn't add those sentence before finding a couple of sources for each, but that should not be hard to do. Mathglot (talk) 21:42, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Like I said earlier I am scared to comment on this because I don’t want to start an edit war. Here’s the thing, although scholars and everyday people here in the west are starting to accept LGBTQ+ people. LGBTQ+ is still nonetheless controversial. Yes many sources do say most scholars agree sexual orientation isn’t a choice. However, they don’t say things like “all scholars agree” or “there is a consensus”. Also we must keep in mind these sources and this article is clearly written by people mostly in western countries. I bet the Arabic Wikipedia or the Russian Wikipedia says it is a choice.CycoMa (talk) 21:58, 21 August 2021 (UTC) I notice you said they "don't say things like 'all scholars agree'." Would you mind looking at the scientific consensus article and saying what you consider to be the meaning of scientific consensus? The lead's sources say "most", not "many", and American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Adolescence (June 2004) additionally says " the current literature." It's old, but the scholarship hasn't changed on this. The causes of human sexual orientation (16 Sep 2020) says, "Whilst people can choose to have sexual relationships (or not) with others, and can perhaps choose to adopt a particular gender or sexual identity socially, they cannot choose their sexual orientation as defined in terms of sexual attraction or arousal. Sexual orientation in these terms generally appears to be a stable trait, which is resistant to intentional efforts to change, and is determined before birth, or perhaps early in life, by certain biological and environmental factors." Can you name a serious scholar or health professional who says sexual orientation is a choice? Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:25, 21 August 2021 (UTC) I know that the 2020 source I quoted is a theology source. I quoted it because you brought up religion. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:30, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Enlightenedstranger0 the reason I brought up religion is because sexual orientation is mostly controversial due to religion. Also it’s probably best to just stick to what sources actually say instead of WP:SYN.CycoMa (talk) 18:36, 28 August 2021 (UTC) CycoMa, religious views don't prevail over scholarship in this, though. Even so, I showed you a theology source that looks at the scholarship and concludes that sexual orientation isn't a choice. I asked you about your understanding of what it means for there to be a consensus among scientists because it doesn't always mean that all the scientists agree. Just enough have to agree. The consensus on this topic is extremely evident. We summarize the consensus, don't we? We can say what the consensus is in Wikipedia's voice, can't we? If you want, I can provide more sources other than the theology source here for all that say sexual orientation isn't a choice. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 22:14, 4 September 2021 (UTC) Or, if you so desire, ones that say it's the consensus among scientists that sexual orientation isn't a choice. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 22:17, 4 September 2021 (UTC) Crossroads I can understand the whole thing about removing the page numbers tag but there was no need to change that edit regarding scientists thinking it isn’t a choice. Yes the APÁ has scientists but but none of the sources never stated on how many scientists think it isn’t. All they said was most medical organizations and mental health organizations don’t think it’s a choice. I know there is a source out there that directly says most scholars agree sexual orientation isn’t a choice. Maybe I could put it in here.CycoMa (talk) 05:49, 29 August 2021 (UTC) Actually the source is cited in this article.CycoMa (talk) 13:55, 29 August 2021 (UTC) Enlightenedstranger0 just to make things clear I’m not saying religious views are above scholarship. It’s common sense that scholarship is above religious views on Wikipedia. I believe you are missing my point.CycoMa (talk) 23:04, 4 September 2021 (UTC) And I believe you are missing mine and others'. Mathglot told you what the consensus is on this topic. You decided to talk about religions and have continued to do so. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:11, 4 September 2021 (UTC) Enlightenedstranger0 buddy I read through the sources none of them ever said there was a consensus the notion that there is a consensus was merely put in here because editors forget WP:SYN. Yes the sources did directly say things like. ”most scholars do not think sexual orientation is a choice”. ”the APA does not think it is a choice” ”most clinicians or mental health professionals do not think it is a choice.” However, statements like this does not equate to 99% of them agree or every single scholar in the field agree. WP:SYN states we should not combine sources to come to a conclusion not stated in the sources. This article used three sources to come to the conclusion that scientists don’t think it is a choice when the sources didn’t say that.(Or at least word it like that.) The reason I brought religion is because scholars who think sexual orientation is a choice are usually distorted by their religious beliefs. Look if you guys desperately want the inclusion that there is a consensus on this, please make sure the source directly says there is or give me a statistic.CycoMa (talk) 03:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC) Just make things I understand it not being a choice is indeed a majority view.CycoMa (talk) 03:49, 5 September 2021 (UTC) In the interest of un-fragmenting the discussion, let it be noted that this was also posted at Talk:Sexual fluidity#Consensus_about_it_not_being_a_choice but I would suggest we discuss only in one place (here, since this discussion is larger and has more participants). -sche (talk) 19:47, 5 September 2021 (UTC) Just gonna bold this comment so everyone understands. Yes sexual orientation not being a choice is a majority view and I’m not arguing against the majority view. My overall concern is that saying there is a consensus gives off a misleading impression on the matter.CycoMa (talk) 19:53, 5 September 2021 (UTC) Okay seriously this is getting annoying. Let me make this very clear. I AM NOT SAYING WE SHOULD INCLUDE FRINGE VIEWS FROM RELIGIOUS GROUPS INTO THIS ARTICLE! I made that statement very clear all caps and bolded now I’m gonna analyze the sources to help you people.CycoMa (talk) 03:12, 8 September 2021 (UTC) I’m gonna respond with a long comment, just give me some time and I’ll be back.CycoMa (talk) 03:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Here are the sources Okay sense quick and easy to read comments are not gonna cut it for you guys, you leave me no choice but to make this massive comment to help you guys understand. To make things easy to understand I’m gonna call [this source] A1 [this source] A2 [this source] A3. A1, A2, and A3 are the three sources that made people think there is a consensus on the topic. A1 says this. The mechanisms for the development of a particular sexual orientation remain unclear, but the current literature and most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual. A variety of theories about the influences on sexual orientation have been proposed. Sexual orientation probably is not determined by any one factor but by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences. Scholars from what field exactly. Sociology? Sexology? Biology? Medicine? I don’t know the person who put this source didn’t quote it. A2 says this. Most health and mental health organizations do not view sexual orientation as a 'choice. Notice how this didn’t say they agree. Also another issue is that this source was used as a source for this sentence. Scientists do not believe that sexual orientation is a choice,[13][14][15] Here is the definition of a scientist according to Wikipedia. A scientist is a person who conducts scientific research to advance knowledge in an area of interest. Not all physicians or mental health professionals fall under the definition of scientist. Yes you can indeed be both. But they aren’t synonymous. A3 says this The reason some individuals develop a gay sexual identity has not been definitively established – nor do we yet understand the development of heterosexuality. The American Psychological Association (APA) takes the position that a variety of factors impact a person's sexuality. The most recent literature from the APA says that sexual orientation is not a choice that can be changed at will, and that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors...is shaped at an early age...[and evidence suggests] biological, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality (American Psychological Association 2010). Yes the American Psychological Association is indeed a reliable source. But, I'm not too sure saying “the most recent literature” gives an idea how mainstream an idea is not to mention the APA is not the only science organization in the world. Yes two reliable sources directly say most think this and yes sexual orientation not being a choice is obviously a large view. But saying most doesn’t give much information, most literally mean greatest in amount, quantity, or degree. when they say most do not think it is a choice do they mean 90% of them agree its not a choice, 80%, 70%, 60%, 51%? I don’t know they don’t say or give stats. If 60% of scholars agree with theory A and 40% agree with theory B. That would mean most scholars agree with theory A. However, theory B isn’t a fringe view because that’s still a significant proportion of scholars. If only 1% of scholars agreed with theory B then yes it would be considered fringe. It is so annoying that you people are misunderstanding my arguments and assuming I’m trying to promote religious propaganda. What I am doing here is trying my very best to stick to a neutral perspective on the matter. Let me make things clear, I am honestly straight however I have been questioning my sexuality a bit a lot. To be honest a part of me thinks I might be bisexual and to be honest I have been experimenting with my sexuality in a way. Also I have been pro-LGBT when I was young and this was before homosexuality became fully legalized in my country. Also I’m part of one of the most pro-LGBTQ+ communities out there. Plus I’m not even religious. So in all honestly I have no reason to be anti-gay, anti-bisexual, or anti any sexual orientation. Look guys all I am asking is that we fix up this article, read through the sources to get a better idea on what they are trying to say. And maybe add more sources like statistics or something, to get a better idea on how mainstream this view is.CycoMa (talk) 04:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Just in case y'all haven't seen this comment. I'm just gonna y'all into this. -sche, Crossroads, and Mathglot.CycoMa (talk) 05:10, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Source A1 talks about the "current literature", which is the sort of statement which is enough to state it as fact in WP:WIKIVOICE. There are tons of statements in wikivoice that are just as well sourced as this, or less so. Crossroads -talk- 05:45, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Crossroads Current literature from what exactly? Medical literature? Gender Studies? I mean not all fields of academia agree with each other. Also current literature really doesn't say much, or am I taking that statement too literally? Because I have never heard any say current literature equates to consensus. I don't know as someone who has ADHD I tend to speak and read in very simplistic English. Also in A1 they say most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice implying there are scholars who do think it's a choice. I just need to know the amount who do think it is a choice.CycoMa (talk) 05:54, 8 September 2021 (UTC) I am sorry if I am sounding dumb.CycoMa (talk) 06:21, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Also WIKIVOICE doesn't say current literature equates to consensus either.CycoMa (talk) 06:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Maybe a deep read through these sources might help.CycoMa (talk) 07:02, 8 September 2021 (UTC) I have very little wifi right now so cannot respond on the merits for quite some time. However, please understand how stuff like this comes across: u leave me no choice but to make this massive comment to help you guys understand. That is uncalled for. I know your primary objective is to improve the article and the encyclopedia, so you get a lot of slack afaic, but you’re also not the only one with a brain trying to improve it and people of good faith can disagree. So please knock it off as far as this kind of comment is concerned. I’ll be back eventually on the merits; please ping in a couple of weeks if I forget. Mathglot (talk) 09:11, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Mathglot look I’m just concerned I’m gonna be accused of being homophobic that’s all. When that’s clearly not my intention. I have seen people like Crossroads or Flyer get accused of being homophobic or transphobic over editing articles like this. I’m just concerned I’m gonna end up in a similar situation.CycoMa (talk) 12:12, 8 September 2021 (UTC) But anyway as I stated before I am not entirely sure how the statements I quoted earlier equate to there being a consensus. I’m sorry if I’m coming off as being repetitive. But, I feel like one of us is missing the context of what the sources are trying to say. Or maybe I’m not reading the sources the same way you guys are reading it.CycoMa (talk) 12:23, 8 September 2021 (UTC) I agree with those who are saying that the existing sources justify a wikivoice statement of fact. Please don't repeat the same arguments. Perhaps you can accept consensus and seek out other sources if you still disagree? For example, are there any modern, reliable, secondary sources that say that sexuality is a choice? Please try and be specific, and please don't stereotype whole cultures. Contrary to your suggestion above, neither the Arabic nor Russian Wikipedia state that sexuality is a choice. The Arabic Wikipedia declares plainly that it is not a choice. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 13:15, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Firefangledfeathers okay thanks for the clarification on the Arabic and Russian Wikipedia. I had that assumption because I know people in Russia are extremely homophobic. What I have been saying is that I’m not entirely sure the three sources I quoted guarantee a wiki voice. Like I said this probably goes down to how someone reads the sources or interpretation. Statements like most think this or current literature to me just doesn’t sound like consensus. Maybe my English is different from y’all. Maybe in my free time I’ll look for more sources to get a better idea on this all. Maybe I’ll find a source that directly says there is a consensus or maybe I’ll find a source that says 99% of scholars think this.CycoMa (talk) 13:45, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Also me personally I don’t personally believe sexual orientation is a choice. But, I try my best to leave my opinions and beliefs to the side.CycoMa (talk) 13:48, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Also I don't understand why you people keep saying stuff life. Do you have any sources that say it's a choice? You guys saying that makes it obvious you are all missing my point.CycoMa (talk) 19:04, 8 September 2021 (UTC) You know what screw this conversation is going anywhere. I try my very best to be neutral and get treated like I'm some bigot.CycoMa (talk) 19:52, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Nah, just chill; it's all good. Mathglot (talk) 04:30, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

It is good that this was resolved, but, CycoMa, I don't think you should close a discussion this way in the future. If others have more to say, they will say it. As long as there is no disruption or violation of the talk page guidelines, all is well. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:46, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Pepperbeast, where at WP:TALK is it acceptable for CycoMa to close a discussion he was involved in, saying, "do not add onto it or modify it"? You say my post is WP:NOTAFORUM, but it was in direct reference to this close, which I do not think was appropriate as it can lead others to think that they can no longer comment in this section. They can. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 01:02, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Yep they sure can; including #here, inside the collapsed part. Mathglot (talk) 04:30, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Let me just say this to everyone. I personally don’t believe sexual orientation is a choice. I’m just trying my best to be a good contributor to this site.

Sorry about my behavior it’s just I was kinda freaking out and concerned y’all were accusing me of being homophobic. Because let’s just say I have been accused of being a bigot on Wikipedia before and I do take those accusations personally because in real life I am very close to LGBTQ+ people.CycoMa1 (talk) 18:09, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Also looking at the article right now. I think it’s currently fine. Maybe a few touch ups could be okay.CycoMa1 (talk) 18:11, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

"Cisgender sexuality" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Cisgender sexuality and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 15#Cisgender sexuality until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Jay 08:41, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: LLIB 1115 - Intro to Information Research

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 16 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ejgrimm (article contribs).

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