Talk:Non-binary gender

Nonbinary umbrella

The subsection of this talk page called "Nitpicking terminology" has strayed a lot from its original discussion, and there have been some interesting and very subtle points that I think risk getting buried in the layers of monthslong discussion threads there. There are so many different threads up there that when I want to contribute to the discussion it's actively hard to figure out which one to even respond to. So I'm starting a new section with the idea of focusing narrowly on Brymor's proposals regarding how the lead of this article should describe the relationship between non-binary and transgender identities. Right now the lead says Non-binary identities fall under the transgender umbrella, since non-binary people typically identify with a gender that is different from their assigned sex, though some non-binary individuals do not consider themselves transgender. I think this sentence matches the contents of the page fairly well, but Brymor points out that if some individuals do not consider themselves transgender (and if, to quote the page body, many (not all) references use the term transgender to include genderqueer/non-binary people), then it is neither a really accurate summary of the article body nor a really accurate summary of the references to say without qualification that Non-binary identities fall under the transgender umbrella. Brymor proposes to replace Non-binary identities fall under the transgender umbrella with Many references place non-binary identities under the transgender umbrella. I broadly support a change along those lines, but I have a small (and maybe pedantic/personal/stylistic) issue with it: the lead section shouldn't really be directly pronouncing on what proportions of references espouse different viewpoints, the lead should be summarizing the contents of the article using references as supporting material where necessary. So I would instead suggest replacing Non-binary identities fall under the transgender umbrella with Non-binary identities usually fall under the transgender umbrella. Then the full sentence would read Non-binary identities usually fall under the transgender umbrella, since non-binary people typically identify with a gender that is different from their assigned sex, though some non-binary individuals do not consider themselves transgender. - Astrophobe (talk) 23:09, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

So the proposal is just to add the word "usually"? I don't believe that it is really essential to do this, as I feel that the existing caveat already covers it, but I don't object to it. If others think that this is an improvement then I think that it is acceptable and would be preferable to more drastic changes. --DanielRigal (talk) 02:29, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Adding "usually" sounds to me like certain specific identities are outside the umbrella, which isn't sourceable as far as I know. I don't think that the identities as a group falling under transgender umbrella necessarily contradicts that some individuals do not identify as transgender. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

There's also papers like this: Non-binary refers to transgender people who have a gender identity that does not align with their sex assigned at birth and who identify outside of the traditional female-male gender binary, such as genderqueer, genderfluid, or gender nonconforming.[8] That cited article itself states, non-binary people make up a significant portion of the transgender community. Of course there are exceptions, but as a group, the current article text seems to hold. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:24, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

In light of a recent a recent and rather dismissive article from Kadji Amin that seems to mark nonbinary politics as bad faith radicalism, I framed our identities this way: "Nonbinary trans identities have historically referred to a range of gender non-normative embodiments and self-making practices that stand on the outside of, or sometimes in direct opposition to, the Western binary classifications of sex/gender (i.e., man or woman, male or female). These identities include but are not limited to androgyny, genderqueer, genderfluid, gender nonconforming, and genderf*ck. Increasingly, nonbinary has become its own free-standing identity, without many of the historical connotations that genderqueer, for instance, might invoke. Nonbinary people identify themselves with gender-neutral pronouns or a fluid mixture of gendered pronouns in social practices. Some transition and take on embodiments that have a particular gendered aesthetic. This may or may not include sexual reassignment surgeries and other procedures that are body confirming. In short, nonbinary people have varied and robust social lives." I feel like it's important to (1) point out that nonbinary hasn't always been deployed as such, (2) make a distinction even within nonbinary communities as to a plurality of identities, (3) mark those identities as emerging from often Western colonial discourse and historical relations, and (4) ensure that readers know there are interfacing and non-identical ways that nonbinary subjects identify, i.e., trans feminine and trans masculine might refer to one's relation to their birth-assigned sex, conscripted gender position, a combination of the two, or neither. We are pretty robust people. And our politics, despite whatever Professor Amin seems to think, is not a priori a radical divestment from the binary. Most of us just want to live without violence, homelessness, and economic insecurity. B Lee-Harrison Aultman, Ph.D. User:Bleeeaultman 21:26, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

As someone who is transgender, I would like to state that non-binary does not "fall under the transgender umbrella" as the article states, but that non-binary is *related to* transgender.

Accordingly, I suggest that the sentence:

"Non-binary identities fall under the transgender umbrella... some non-binary individuals do not consider themselves transgender"

be changed to:

Non-binary identities are separate but related to transgender identities, in that non-binary people typically identify with a gender that is different from their assigned sex, though some non-binary individuals do not consider themselves transgender.

Violet 49.183.24.37 (talk) 19:05, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:NOR. "Transgender" means a person who does not identify with their gender/sex assigned at birth. NB people (such as myself) would fall under that category. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2022 and 9 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JessiWasTaken (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Spelico.

— Assignment last updated by WGST320 (talk) 01:36, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Sexuality in World Civilizations I

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 September 2022 and 10 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Delendaaest (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Delendaaest (talk) 15:00, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Need to make clear that transgender and non-binary are not the same

Transgender, Non-binary and Intersex people are three separate groups who fall within the gender-diverse umbrella. Trans, Non-binary and Intersex people will often undertake some of the same surgeries and/or hormonal and other treatments, but they are distinct, separate groups and identities, but this article states the opposite to this, conflating trans and non-binary, including in the article lead.

It appears that this article is "locked" and cannot be updated, so can somebody with the ability to update this page please make this change?

Thank you kindly. 49.185.206.32 (talk) 05:38, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Transgenderism has nothing to do with surgeries or hormon treatments. Transgender is being assigned to a gender different from one's gender identity. This includes binary as well as non-binary genders. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 19:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Edit required

In the United Kingdom section, it says "The purpose of the survey was to test if respondents are willing to answer questions about their transsexual status", should probably say "purpose of the survey was to test the design of a set of questions, that if respondents were willing to answer, would reveal their transsexual status" I think this format was recommended to govt? may be worth noting 2404:4408:638C:5E00:666D:DDCF:AE5E:A34C (talk) 16:50, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

being consistent with sources

I tried to add a table of information from the annual gender census and it got deleted for being sourced from an annual web poll (gender census). The graph in the sidebar should then also be removed as this is from the same 2021 survey. -Delendaaest (talk) 19:57, 25 November 2022 (UTC)