Talk:Gallipoli campaign

Commanders

Strictly speaking, Von Sanders was the Turkish commander. I only included Germany as a combatant because they provided machine gunners and artillery. Also submarines, I guess, plus the German crews remained on the Breslau and Goeben even once they became Turkish vessels. Perhaps Germany's role in Gallipoli isn't big enough to warrant a "combatant" tag. If we include them, we probably should include Newfoundland and Malta and the Zion Mule Corps and so on for the Allied side.

Gsl 06:33, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Von Sanders was not in Turkish side. He have made many "mistakes" like moving troops inner fields at the beginning of the invasion. So the allied forces have landed easily to Gallipoly. It is obviousy an evidence of exceptional stupidity for a costal war. But in fact it wasn't the stupidity. He aimed to make war longer to lighten Allied forces for Germany. That made the Turks pay much higer price for the victory.

Name

The problem with this article is that the campaign is never called "the Battle of Gallipoli" in any of the combatant countries. In Britain it is called the Dardanelles Campaign and in Australia and New Zealand it is simply called Gallipoli, or sometimes the Gallipoli Landings. I don't know what it's called in France. I will note this in the intro para, but perhaps this title ought to be redirected. Adam 05:42, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It's called "Battle of Gallipoli" to comply with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Battles guidelines. Gsl 06:02, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I'm aware of that, but that doesn't make it the name of the battle. Is an encyclopaedia required to conform to reality or vice versa? Adam 06:10, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It is also just "Gallipoli" in Canada (well, Newfoundland), if that helps. Adam Bishop 06:15, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

What do you propose to do? Replace the existing Gallipoli entry? As far as I am concerned, Gallipoli is a place, not a battle and the Battle of Gallipoli is a battle, not a place. As you point out, the battle is known by a number of names. Which one do you want to use for the final entry? I didn't create this entry, I'm just trying to complete it. Gsl 06:19, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree it is an awkward choice. I said "perhaps" it ought to be redirected, but perhaps also it ought not. Adam 06:23, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps the current Gallipoli page becomes "Gallipoli (disambiguation)". Entries about the Gallipoli townships become "Gallipoli, Turkey" and "Gallipoli, Italy". Gallipoli (1981 movie) stays as it is. Battle of Gallipoli moves to "Gallipoli" and "Battle of Çanakkale" and "Dardanelles Campaign" are redirects to "Gallipoli". Personally I like it the way it is - I don't know that most people would want the amount of detail that's in the Battle of Gallipoli page - but I've got no problem is someone wants to rearrange it. Gsl 00:26, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I have no problems with Gsl's suggestion, but I think on further thought that the problem is that Gallipoli wasn't a "battle" at all, it was a campaign lasting several months, with a series of engagements but no single "battle." I could therefore argue that the Battle of Gallipoli article be dropped and its content shifted to Gallipoli (military campaign) or something like that. Adam 02:32, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

There are plenty of month-long "battles" made up of a series of smaller engagements, for example the Battle of the Somme (1916) ("Somme Offensive") and Third Battle of Ypres ("Flanders Offensive"). That said, I agree "Battle of Gallipoli" isn't the conventional name here however I favour the consistent "battle of" nomenclature for the main entry, though I seem to be in the minority. Unless someone wants to make an executive decision, I guess we assemble the alternatives and run a vote. Geoff 23:25, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree, Adam. Gallipoli campaign or Gallipoli (campaign) or something similar. It isn't called "the Battle of Gallipoli" by anyone, and it wasn't a battle, it was a whole series of them. From the point of view of link-friendliness, most people will want to just link it as Gallipoli, so Gallipoli (campaign) allows the pipe trick. On the other hand, Gallipoli campaign looks better. Or even (shock horror) Battle of Gallipoli? Whichever way you look at it. it's a curly one. Tannin 02:58, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The advice at Wikipedia:WikiProject Battles says to use "Battle of" unless the battle is most commonly known under a different name. In this case plain Gallipoli is the most common, but we should use Gallipoli campaign because the former is also the place. Gdr 09:00, 2004 Aug 12 (UTC)

Perhaps a poll is in order, although that would require me to make a decision. After eight months of editing it, I am quite comfortable with Battle of Gallipoli. Geoff/Gsl 07:16, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Good article

May I just point out that I think this is a rather good article? :) Barneyboo 11:22, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Turkish"

It is an very good article; however, I think it would be more historically accurate to use the word Ottoman wherever possible, instead of "Turkish", except in relation to specific individuals (etc). That is to say, it's possible that two thirds of the Ottoman forces were Arab conscripts. Obviously there were many other ethnic groups in the empire as well. Check this interesting article at al Jazeera's website: "The forgotten Arabs of Gallipoli", by Jonathan Gorvett, 14 January 2004[1] (By the way, the article doesn't mention that some Arabs -- Egyptians -- served as labourers with the Allied forces.) What do others think? Grant65 (Talk) 11:46, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

The history of my grandfather's unit (which was at Gallipoli, Sinai, Palestine, Syria) uses "Turk|Turkish|Turkey" an even 100 times; there's no use of "Ottoman". The first chapter of Vol VII (Sinai & Palestine) of the Aus. official history is called "The Turks Invade Egypt" and uses "Turk|Turkish|Turkey" throughout (9 times on the first page, 0 for "Ottoman"). It quotes Enver Pasha as saying "Turkey has defeated the British Navy." Picking any page in Vols I, II or VII the usage is invariably "Turk*". It's the same in Keegan's "The First World War" -- once he gets over introducing it as the "Ottoman Empire", he uses "Turk*". Likewise turning to any random page in Carlyon's "Gallipoli". Even a conference article I've got, "The impact of the Ottoman Empire in the German strategy of 1915", uses "Turk*" almost exclusively.

Against such a weight of material, I'm not brave enough to say that "Ottoman" is more historically accurate than "Turkish". Geoff/Gsl 04:38, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've reverted the use of "Ottoman". If you wish to use "Ottoman" instead of "Turkish", please make the changes consistent through the entire article rather than in one isolated section. Also make the changes in all the sub-articles and the articles of the Sinai and Palestine campaign. Geoff/Gsl 00:24, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Geoff, my apologies for not responding sooner. I disagree strongly with you on this matter; just because the Ottoman Empire forces are commonly referred to as "Turks" or Turkish", it doesn't mean that is correct. It's like the usage of "British", when the correct term would be "British Commonwealth"/"British Empire"; or "American" when the correct term is "Allied". This a common problem in Wikipedia military history articles. Grant65 (Talk) 00:49, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. I don't agree (for the reasons I stated above) but will respect your wishes to make the changes. I only ask that if you insist on making the changes, you do it consistently throughout the article, rather than in just one section. Geoff/Gsl 00:55, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)