Talk:President of Zimbabwe

Power to Veto

Does the President of Zimbabwe have the power to veto a bill passed by Parliament? mdkarazim (talk) 22:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

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Derek Walker is dead, a British architect

Resolved

Xx236 (talk) 07:13, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

This issue was caused by someone changing Robert Mugabe to Derek Walker, this issue has since been resolved. GippoHippo (talk) 11:57, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Mnangagwa

I see a Twitter account [1] claiming that Mnangagwa is now the president of ZANU–PF, but I don't believe that would make him President of Zimbabwe. Are there any other sources? power~enwiki (π, ν) 23:03, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Article title

The current title seems a bit of an odd one, and I was wondering if there is any particular reason for it? Otherwise, I would have thought it would be sensible to move it to "President of Zimbabwe", which currently redirects here. RadiculousJ (talk) 16:53, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 19 November 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move SNOW close. GoldenRing (talk) 12:44, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

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List of Presidents of Zimbabwe → President of Zimbabwe – I agree completely. This article isn't just a list. Charles Essie (talk) 16:34, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree that President of Zimbabwe is more descriptive of what this article is about. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 17:07, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Agreed: there is some substantial prose content. DBD 18:19, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support substantial non-list content, and the new name will match how similar articles are named. power~enwiki (π, ν) 14:58, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
• Support per nomination, especially in view of the fact that the more-precise title, President of Zimbabwe, already redirects to List of Presidents of Zimbabwe. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 06:20, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
• Support It makes for a better title name. User:Felicia777 (talk) 20:28, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

i second the motion — Preceding unsigned comment added by J2e1d3 (talk • contribs) 17:54, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support list element is only a small part of this article which is clearly about the office. Suggest we do this speedy as this is currently a very topical article and consensus is clear. --LukeSurl ^{t c} 21:51, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support - Only one section is about the list. User:Axisixa [talk] [contribs] 22:28, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
• Support – We've got a related article called Vice-President of Zimbabwe. -- GoodDay (talk) 23:15, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
• Support as this is an article which includes a list by now, not a mere list. Regards, Sullay (Let's talk about it) 09:13, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
• Support. Appears to be WP:SNOW, and given the topicality of it, consider WP:IAR to just get it moved over. —Sladen (talk) 11:19, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Last Election and 2017 Coup

Does this article really need two sections that have subheadings which only provide links to other articles? GippoHippo (talk) 10:54, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Those are stub sections which could be expanded later so I think they should be kept, at least for now. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 13:17, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Original research

@Number 57, Srnec, ZiaLater, Cambalachero, Impru20, GoodDay, Cordyceps-Zombie, Sundostund, Wizzy, and MB298: Hi There are no source that Phelekezela Mphoko is acting president. He is a virtual president like Diosdado Cabello after Chavez's death. So, the zimbabwean constitution is not a source. --Panam2014 (talk) 12:56, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

More precisely, the Zimbabwean Constitution is a primary source. On Wikipedia we're supposed to use secondary sources wherever possible. We should only report that Mphoko is Acting President if secondary sources say that he is, and of course we should cite our sources. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 13:14, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

@Strawberry4Ever: that source is only an opinion. --Panam2014 (talk) 13:38, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

It's an opinion by legal experts, which qualifies it as being a secondary source. Do you have a source which says that Mphoko is not Acting President? Strawberry4Ever (talk) 13:42, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

@Strawberry4Ever: the VP is abroad since the coup d'état. Only that expert claims that he is acting president. And it is not a reliable source. The presidency doesn't consider him as acting president. --Panam2014 (talk) 13:48, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

The article says "legal experts", so apparently there is more than one person saying that Mphoko is Acting President under the constitution. What is your basis for saying that the article is not a reliable source? When you say "the presidency" do you mean Mnangagwa or ZANU-PF? If you have a source for saying that Mnangagwa and/or ZANU-PF doesn't consider Mphoko to be Acting President you should edit the article to say so. Perhaps there should be a footnote saying that there is a controversy between legal experts and Mnangagwa/ZANU-PF over whether Mphoko is Acting President. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 13:59, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

There a not any information here. And the president of parliament have not say that. Also, there are no cable, etc, and Phelekezela Mphoko have not claim the office of president. The was expelled by the ruling party and he couldn'y return to the country no. I haven't seen the information in the mainstream sources. --Panam2014 (talk) 14:04, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Based on the available sources, perhaps what the article should say is that legal experts have said that Mphoko is the Acting President but there has been no confirmation of this from the Zimbabwe government. Mnangagwa will become president very soon so it doesn't matter very much. It's just a question of whether Mphoko should be listed in the article as having been Acting President for a few days. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 14:23, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

@Strawberry4Ever: we could add a footnote to introducethe information about the legal interpretation, but we couldn't add it in the infobox. We should replace vacant and Mphoko by interregnium or situation inclear. --Panam2014 (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

I think that might be best: say that the current President is "Unclear", with a footnote explaining that legal experts have said that Mphoko is the Acting President and that ZANU-PF has said that Mnangagwa will appointed as President on 24 November, and with citations of the relevant sources. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 14:33, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

The Washington Post describes Mphoko as an "interim president" and stated the ruling party shall nominate a successor to "replace Mphoko as president within 30 days through ZANU PF’s internal nomination process;". An Associated Press reports of a legal group saying that the Mphoko will " hold office, phantom-like" until thhe ruling party have their preferred man, Mnangagwa swon in as President. Mphoko can be said as the de jure Acting President following this POV.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 17:25, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

@Strawberry4Ever: agree. What do you think ? --Panam2014 (talk) 19:55, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

It looks like Mphoko should be mentioned as "interim" or whatever the preferred title would be. He is "president", so it should at least be mentioned.--ZiaLater (talk) 06:13, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

@Number 57, Srnec, ZiaLater, Cambalachero, Impru20, GoodDay, Cordyceps-Zombie, Sundostund, Wizzy, MB298, Hariboneagle927, and Strawberry4Ever:

Emmerson was acting president from 21 November 2017. --Panam2014 (talk) 15:03, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

In these situations, I've always preferred that we use "Interim", when the person is filling in, when the presidency is vacant. "Acting", when the president is incapacitated. GoodDay (talk) 15:18, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

@GoodDay: the zimbabwean justice retroactively cancelled the dismissal of Emmerson, so Emmerson was interim president or the office was vacant ? --Panam2014 (talk) 15:34, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Clarify: You mean they declared that he was 'still' First Vice President, when President Mugabe resigned? GoodDay (talk) 15:36, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

@GoodDay: Yes. --Panam2014 (talk) 15:40, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Ok. Yas can figure this one out for yourselves. GoodDay (talk) 15:53, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

@GoodDay:So, what date should we consider for the end of Emmerson's duties? 6 or 24 November? And for the period between November 21st and 24th? --Panam2014 (talk) 16:31, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Go with the retroactive ruling. GoodDay (talk) 16:34, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

@GoodDay: So Emmerson Mnangagwa's term ended on 24 November 2017 and he was interim president from 21 November ? --Panam2014 (talk) 18:42, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Do whatever ya think is correct. GoodDay (talk) 02:41, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@GoodDay: GippoHippo continues to end Mphoko's second VP term without source and add a fake new that he was interim president. So, only a first VP could become interim president. And the Zimbabwean court cancelled the dismissal of Emmerson as first VP. So, the office of president was at least vacant, or Emmerson was interim president. When Mphoko was (and is) in-exile since the coup d'état. --Panam2014 (talk) 13:31, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Because he is not the second vice president, he suceeded to first VP when mnangagwa was sacked by mugabe, furthermore under the constitution, a new president will appoint his own team (similar to how the PM of the uk appoints their cabinent) now please stop making these changes. GippoHippo (talk) 13:42, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

GippoHippo there are no source that the constitution has been applied during the coup d'état. In Zimbabwe, ministers leave office when the chair changes, but not vice presidents. Please read WP:OR. --Panam2014 (talk) 13:46, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

I'll let you two work it out. GoodDay (talk) 13:51, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@GoodDay: the account continue to add his fake news/WP:OR. --Panam2014 (talk) 13:55, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Open up an RFC on the matter. GoodDay (talk) 13:57, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@Northernelk888: please read the new information. Mphoko never been acting president of first vice president. --Panam2014 (talk) 13:58, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Panam2014 turned up on the articles on Zimbabwe three days ago and has been spamming nonsense on them since without having any knowledge on Zimbabwe nor its constitution and now he is being malicious towards other users, I have reported him to the administrators and he still refuses to back down. GippoHippo (talk) 13:59, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

RfC Unclear Presidency

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus was reached: mention unclear, until reliables or academic secondary sources will be given. II 07:10, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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I'm assuming that the question here is this: While the presidency was vacant (due to Mugabe's resignation) from 21-24 November 2017, did anybody hold its powers & duties as acting president? If so, then who? GoodDay (talk) 14:13, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

I quote: "The constitution is not a source. --Panam2014 (talk) 14:11, 26 November 2017 (UTC)" form my talk page, the constitution which he is referring to, is the constitution of Zimbabwe, which is most definitely a source, therefore making his arguments completely invalid. GippoHippo (talk) 14:15, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@GippoHippo: your argument are invalid. Quoting the constitution is not a source that Mphoko was acting president. @GoodDay: Per read WP:PRIMARY, the constitution is not a source. For example, per constitution, Diosdado Cabello was acting president after the death of Hugo Chavez. So, claiming that is a fake news. --Panam2014 (talk) 14:20, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

You cannot keep referring to Hugo Chavez, he is not Zimbabwean and furthermore, he is dead, Mugabe is not dead. Also I'm not disputing Mphoko as president, I'm disputing the fact that under the constitution, he succeeded to First Vice-President when Mnangagwa was sacked by Mugabe. Therefore he is the First-Vice President, not the Second Vice-President. This has nothing to do as to whether he was the acting president or not. GippoHippo (talk) 14:23, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Both situations are analogous. After a power vaccum, the regime in place in both cases refused to apply the constitution and deprived the holder of these duties. But no source says that Mphoko has served. --Panam2014 (talk) 14:25, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@Strawberry4Ever, Impru20, and Hariboneagle927:--Panam2014 (talk) 15:32, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

• My 2 cents - Even if Mphoko was de-jure acting president - de-facto he was not. In a military coup (which is what this was per RS) the legal transition process is really meaningless. The correct thing to state, IMHO, is that Mugabe transitioned to Mnangagwa. Interim military leaders and/or legal claimants to the acting title are of little lasting import nor reliably sourced (in fact, I believe there is conflicting sourcing in this regard).Icewhiz (talk) 16:14, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

The given source only mentions that Emmerson's dismissal as Vice President as illegal. The move was committed, but no mention of revocation/annulment of the dismissal.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 16:29, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

A This Day Live report:

Under the constitution, the role of successor to Mugabe would have normally gone to a serving vice-president, which was Phelekezela Mphoko, Mnangwaga’s replacement and an ally of Grace Mugabe. However, he was fired by Zanu-PF, thus paving the way for Mnangwaga.

This seems to suggest that the Vice President needs to be affiliated with the ruling party (as far as know Mphoko was fired from the party and not the post), ZANU-PF, to succeed Mugabe. But I can't find source yet for this speculation.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 16:37, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@Hariboneagle927: Emmerson Mnangagwa was sworn in before the Supreme Court, but it never declared Mphoko the interim president, especially since he was absent. That constancy recognizes him as interim president is not proof that he was. We should consider the office as vacant during 3 days. --Panam2014 (talk) 16:39, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

I truly don't know who was President (21-24 November 2017), First Vice President (6-24 November 2017) & Second Vice President (6-24 November 2017) & so it's best for others who are more knowledgeable to figure these things out. GoodDay (talk) 18:59, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@GoodDay: Precisely, given the chaos, nobody knows it. So the best is to put nothing. But to base oneself on the constitution to complete the dates of mandate falls of anything. --Panam2014 (talk) 19:21, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

I've lost interest in this topic. GoodDay (talk) 19:22, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@GoodDay:Why ? But this is not a reason to let a contributor take advantage of this vacuum to put information according to his interpretation of the constitution. Which is not done for any country in the world. Fortunately the ridicule does not kill, but according to his reasoning Manuel Zelaya would still be president in 2010, Diosdado Cabello would be acting president in 2013, etc. In fact, this contributor is new and he does not understand the rules.--Panam2014 (talk) 19:27, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@Northernelk888: we couldn't put a virtual officeholder just because he is de jure but not de facto president. We should write unclear or vacant and add a note. --Panam2014 (talk) 20:21, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree, given the conflicting sources: list the President for 21-24 November as "Unclear", with a footnote explaining the two possibilities: either Mphoko became Acting President when Mugabe resigned, as stated by legal experts, because he was the sole Vice President at that point, or else Mnangagwa was Acting President for those few days, based on a judge's later ruling that his removal as First Vice President was illegal. We can change this later if there a clear consensus one way or the other among secondary sources. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 21:29, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

First of all, I must admit that I'm not an expert in Zimbabwean Constitution, but I'm pretty sure that in the days following the fall of Mugabe, the country was de facto ruled by the military, so IMHO we should remove the interim President, because the office was vacant. -- Nick.mon (talk) 22:24, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

So we're agreed that Phelekezela Mphoko should be removed from this page and have the office as vacant/unclear between the 21-24 November 2017? That would solve this dispute, however it would not solve the dispute over at Vice-President_of_Zimbabwe (Talk:Vice-President_of_Zimbabwe) about whether Mr Mphoko is currently the Vice-President of Zimbabwe. GippoHippo (talk) 09:13, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

We may have to wait for secondary sources to clarify Mr. Mphoko's status. 14:47, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@Strawberry4Ever: Here we come to a consensus, we can put the mention unclear, until reliables or academic secondary sources will be given. For the RfC about the Vice President, I have found some sources. --Panam2014 (talk) 19:53, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@Panam2014:I have made the relevant changes to the President of Zimbabwe article to reflect our conclusions here. --GippoHippo (talk) 10:54, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Cabinet was officially dissolved by Mnangagwa on the evening of 27 November 2017, thereby officially ending any terms of office of Vice Presidents or ministers. Would suggest this be the last date in office as 2nd VP for Mphoko. The Herald --Takutau (talk) 09:27, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

As the relevant changes have been made, should the tag be removed and this discussion be closed? --GippoHippo (talk) 10:58, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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