Talk:Victory Christian Fellowship of the Philippines

This article was edited to make it more accurate and encyclopedic. Varsha Daswani 02:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The entry of Victory Christian Fellowship was reverted back to changes made on January 31, 2007, including an explanation of the connection between Victory Christian Fellowship and Maranatha Campus Ministries, with two third party sources.

Should you wish to discuss how to further improve the entry, please post your comments on this talk page rather than reverting the whole entry without including verifiable third party sources.

The external links to Maranatha were also removed for the following reasons:

1. The Maranatha-Every Nation Timeline is not verifiable or a credible third party source. It is an anonymous blog.
2. The Rick Ross Archive on Maranatha is irrelevant to the Victory Christian Fellowship entry on Wikipedia.
3. Maranatha Exposed: A Blog of a Former Member is an anonymous blog and is therefore not verifiable or credible.
4. Cults on Campus: Maranatha in the News is irrelevant to the Victory Christian Fellowship entry as well.

Since Wikipedia is a community, we hope we can use the talk page in reaching a concensus to create a great encyclopedic article.Varsha Daswani 04:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The reason for the revert was your wholesale deletion of the fact that the inital outreach was a Maranatha outreach. And this 2 nd revert is because your rewrite is much like a VCF broichure and not encyclopedic at all.Osakadan 15:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Osakadan seems to be vandalizing the Victory Christian Fellowship entry by inputting information not relevant to the page. None of his entries improve on the article. It also slants the topic towards Every Nation, not focus it on Victory Christian Fellowship. Please cite more reliable third-party verifiable sources before making other edits to this entry. Please also discuss your changes on this page. Iskongbayan 09:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not vandalization by any means. VCF was a major part Of Maranatha, and Maranatha was indeed controversial. Ever since I first included Maranatha in the page, VCF began deleting the reference as they try to downplay it.

VCF is also a major part of Every Nation and no discussion on VCF is complete with discussion about Every Nation. In fact, the head of VCF is a major player in Every Nation.

Perhaps you should call for mediation or list specific passages here that seem biased here and we can work on a compromise together.Osakadan 10:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Victory Christian Fellowship was definitely a part of Maranatha, which is why it is included in the revision I have made on this entry. However, Maranatha was dissolved in 1989, and Victory Christian Fellowship exists independent of that. The entry of Victory links to Maranatha, which is relevant, but the other information, links, and references are irrelevant to the page.

Victory Christian Fellowship is a member of Every Nation, which is why the connection is explained in this revision. However, the entry of Victory should talk about Victory specifically, not go in detail about Every Nation--which should be done on the Every Nation page. The Victory entry should give the reader an encyclopedic, reliable, verifiable, neutral, and objective view of what Victory Christian Fellowship is.

The anonymous, unverifiable, and dubious links have also been removed once again. Include in this page information relevant to Victory Christian Fellowship, and let other information on Every Nation or Maranatha be in their own pages.

I hope we can achieve a concensus for this entry as well.Varsha Daswani 13:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the references to Maranatha and EN are minor. As they are such a large part of the history of VCF, they certainly warrant more than having their names mentioned in the article?

In 1984, Steve Murrell, Rice Broocks and their team of sixty-five students went to Manila for one month of outreach and evangelism. The initial outreach led to a congregation of 150 primarily college students, with expansion to more sites in Manila, and around the country.[3] This was under the auspices of the controversial group, Maranatha Campus Ministries (MCM). Under the leadership of Bob Weiner, MCM's mission was to bring students to know Christ, training a new generation of leaders. Such were their tactics that they were banned from a number of university campuses across the world. [4][5]

What are your objections to this paragraph? It is fact that Maranatha were controversial. It is fact they were banned from at least 3 university campuses. VCF cannot simple disavow their association to these controversies.Osakadan 13:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Osakadan, you're saying that Maranatha is a large part of Victory Christian Fellowship. What's your proof for this? I'm new on wikipedia, but I think you're violating some of the pillars and content policies of Wikipedia. No original research is one such policy. Please cite credible sources to your contributions to this page. I saw on your talk page that the Victory Christian Fellowship entry is not the only one you have been trying to slant. You seem to have an agenda against Every Nation, or maybe against Victory Christian Fellowship. Please explain why this is. Your entries reflect a bias, which goes against Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Thank you. Hoping to hear from you on this. Iskongbayan 08:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Just an VCF person. It is a fact that even they do not deny. VCF was established from an "outreach" of MCM. IT existed as the Philipines branch of MCM until they disbabded in 1989.

You cannot just delete a history section. You can question things but yu cannot just delete a section outright.

Declasre your interests. Are you part of VCF?Osakadan 15:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the only one needing to declare interests here right now is you, Osakadan. I'm not the only person on W who sees your posts on this entry as acts of vandalism, slanting the article to your specific bias, and it is obvious you're willing to break W rules to do so. What's your agenda in all of this? Other people from your previous posts (not just on this one) have been trying to point out errors in your corrections. Please discuss your potential edits here first before reverting the article again to the version you're trying to espouse. Iskongbayan 02:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

What is your source for saying that Victory Christian Fellowship was a "major part" of Maranatha? These are weasel words and have therefore been removed from the entry.

The history includes the connection of Victory Christian Fellowship and Maranatha, as well as Victory and Every Nation. Other information on either of these two organizations does not belong in this entry.

This entry was made more encyclopedic to reflect without bias what Victory Christian Fellowship is.Varsha Daswani 04:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like to thank Seraphimblade for pointing out that wikipedia entries should not sound like an advertisement. However, I think the vision statement is essential in this article to best define Victory Christian Fellowship. I have attached a reference from their website where the same statement could be found.Chickywiki 03:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Basically, the issue there is that we should never have a slogan in an article-especially unquoted, that makes it look like it's in "our voice" rather than "their voice". I'll quote it for now, but usually what should be done with slogans is to create an infobox on the side, with some basic information. I think there's a specific infobox layout for churches (I'm not sure, I always manage to misformat the damn things so I don't use them much), but if not, the corporate one would probably work too-"number of employees" can just be tweaked to "congregation size", etc. There'd be a specific spot under that for a slogan/mission statement. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me Please review me!} 07:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. As a beginner in Wiki, I'll definitely look into that soon.Chickywiki 03:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Some edits and additional information tend to lean on one side too much. It makes the article look like an expose of sorts and, I believe, is far from Wikipedia's goal to maintain encyclopedic entries. Concerned parties might want to consider other media to express this information in a proper manner. Also, please don't forget to post your reasons for major edits on this article to keep everyone on the same page.Chickywiki 04:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Sourcing

While the cited sources do speak of this "Marantha" group, I see no mention in either of a Victory Christian Fellowship. Reliable sources would be necessary which specifically speak to a link between the two groups, or the information cannot be included. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me Please review me!} 03:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree to this. Should the Maranatha - Victory Christian Fellowship link be inputed again, the sources should be reputable and this portion should be explained in NPOV.Chickywiki 04:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Revert Wars

It looks like this page is currently in a revert war, and the people who keep reverting it to a slanted article that's not about Victory Christian Fellowship don't even bother to discuss their views on this page, nor provide credible sources for their edits. Instead they provide content not relevant to the topic (Victory Christian Fellowship, Osakadan, not Maranatha or something about To Reach and to Rule). Wikipedia is not the place to air conspiracy theories. Please stop reverting without giving your reasons. Please cite more credible sources. And please follow Wikipedia guidelines. Thank you. Iskongbayan 14:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)