Jump to content

Talk:Ded Moroz: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
→Red coat?: Reply
Line 89: Line 89:


In some contexts in russian language the word "grandfather" can be used to any old man (with familiarity). So Grandfather Frost means Gaffer Frost, not Father. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Iceman by|Iceman by]] ([[User talk:Iceman by|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Iceman by|contribs]]) 03:25, 17 July 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
In some contexts in russian language the word "grandfather" can be used to any old man (with familiarity). So Grandfather Frost means Gaffer Frost, not Father. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Iceman by|Iceman by]] ([[User talk:Iceman by|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Iceman by|contribs]]) 03:25, 17 July 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:A native language speaker addition.
:A Russian the word "ded" could both mean "grandfather" and "old (elder) man". It's really unclear what meaning is meant here. [[User:Владимир Казаринов|Владимир Казаринов]] ([[User talk:Владимир Казаринов|talk]]) 14:30, 1 January 2023 (UTC)


== Ukraine ==
== Ukraine ==

Revision as of 14:30, 1 January 2023

Template:Vital article

Old talk

Every time someone is trying to say that Ded Moroz in not traditional to other Slavic countries, Russians change it back with remarks like "read the history first!". Can you please explain me your point of view? Why do you think that you are the only ones right, and all others are wrong? Why do you think you know our history better then we do? I did not mention anything about Russian oppression, occupation or imperialism. I just wrote the facts. And the facts are that at least in my country, Belarus, there was no Ded Moroz until Soviet times. There is nothing political about that. The whole point of Wikipedia is to allow people share facts they know. Nobody has the right to privatise the topic just because he feels a certain way about it. Juras14 05:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be hysterical my Belorussian friend, just provide any evidence ( a reference to any academic article etc. that says there was no mention of such traditional character in Belarus prior to Soviet period). Post it here first and then change the article if the evidence is convincing enough. Fisenko 05:26, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake is being too emotional on the topic. As far as the evidence, here is a part of interview of Tadevuš Navahrodzki to Belarusian Radio Liberty (it can be found here)
Т. Навагродзкі: «Для беларускай традыцыі на Каляды і Новы год характэрны такі пэрсанаж, як Сьвяты Мікалай. Асабліва яго чакалі дзеці ў заходняй частцы тэрыторыі Беларусі. Дзеці верылі, што ў калядную ноч Сьвяты Мікалай прыносіць падарункі і пасьля сна, прачнуўшыся, яны сапраўды знаходзілі ў сваіх валенках, чаравіках, шкарпэтках падарункі. Вось якраз іх і прыносіў Сьвяты Мікалай. Гэтыя дадзеныя намі былі зафіксаваныя на тэрыторыі заходняй часткі Беларусі – Гарадзенскі, Шчучынскі, Пружанскі, Ваўкавыскі ды іншыя раёны.
Ва ўсходняй Беларусі прыход сьвятога Мікалая на навагоднія сьвяты не фіксуецца этнаграфічнымі, літаратурнымі крыніцамі і ўспамінамі інфарматараў. Ёсьць дадзеныя, што на тэрыторыі Гарадзенскай губэрніі ў другой палове жонка гарадзенскага генэрал-губэрнатара, калі ладзіла навагоднюю елку, то падарункі дзецям раздавала сама, а такія пэрсанажы, як Дзед Мароз і Сьнягурачка нідзе ў этнаграфічных матэрыялах, пісьмовых і літаратурных крыніцах ня згадваюцца.
Як новыя маскі-пэрсанажы Дзед Мароз і Сьнягурачка зьявіліся толькі ў савецкія часы і, напэўна, пад уплывам рускай культуры, і то спачатку сярод заможных слаёў насельніцтва, а ў побыце вясковага насельніцтва яны зьявіліся яшчэ пазьней, зусім нядаўна. А вось да гэтага ў заходняй частцы Беларусі менавіта Сьвяты Мікалай прыносіў падарункі дзецям, і дзеці заўсёды з нецярплівасьцю чакалі падарункаў ад Мікалая.
Таму на аснове дадзеных этнаграфічных экспэдыцыяў і ўспамінаў інфарматараў можна меркаваць, што у Заходняй Беларусі ў калядныя вечары прыходзіў Сьвяты Мікалай і менавіта ён прыносіў падарункі дзецям і дарослым. А Дзед Мароз і Сьнягурачка зьявіліся пазьней, у савецкія часы".
С. Абламейка: Ну вось спадар Навагродзкі і адказаў на пытаньне, якое нас сёньня цікавіла. Дзед Мароз і Сьнягурка прыйшлі ў Беларусь за савецкім часам і з усходу. Заходняя Беларусь уся чакала падарункаў ад Міколы, а ва Ўсходняй хоць і не было такой традыцыі, але і пра Дзеда Мароза і Сьнягурку ніколі нічога ня ведалі.»
Tadevuš Navahrodzki finished the historical faculty of BDU (1991), graduate school (aśpirantura) of IMEF NAN RB (1994). He is the candidate of historical sciences (1995). He works for National Academy of Sciences of Republic of Belarus, docent of Belarusian State University (BDU) from 1997. His area of study includes traditional Belarusian culture.
I would say the information by this scientist can be considered convincing and legitimate enough. Please post your arguments if you think otherwise. Juras14 05:57, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I'm, sorry, but the burden of proof must be placed on those with positive claims, not negative ones. Unless you can provide citations for a pre-Soviet presence of Ded Maroz in a given culture, we cannot assume that it was present. I'm going to be bold and change the opening sentence to "some Slavic cultures" rather than "Slavs."24.47.154.230 (talk) 01:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, let's start with a simple one, why do you all start from the Soviet era, Ded Moroz appeared back in the pre-revolutionary times of the Russian Empire, Belarus was also part of the Russian Empire, and was there any Russian influence on Belarus, during that period of history? And even if the character had a different name, this does not mean that the character was completely different, he may be quite similar to Santa Claus, for example, the same zyuzya (one of the dialect names of Moroz in some Belarusian and Western Russian dialects, a mythical character, known in the Belarusian and Ukrainian Polissya, personifying the winter cold, cold. Depicted as a bald grandfather of small stature, with a long gray beard. According to legend, he walks barefoot, without a hat, in a white casing. On New Year's Eve, Belarusians cooked kutya, saying "Zyuzya in the yard - Kutya on the table"), well, if you already research the history of the folklore characters of Belarus for the new year and Christmas, then you need to research it completely and objectively, and not take information on the topic, only from Radio Liberty, which is sponsored by the American government and is obviously pro-Western anti-Russian character 37.54.230.242 (talk) 19:47, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is it absolutly necessary to have Polish attitudes in every article related to anything which has to do with Russian/East Slav culture ? What is the point having little known political details about events long forgotten by most people in the article about something like Ded Moroz ? To 99 % of people even in Poland is just a unique Russian children fictional folklore character, only to may be 1-2% of Poles it a symbol of Soviet opression (which nobody denies here, but in which Ded Moroz play only a very minor role)? If this would've have been a Chinese or Indian fictional tale character I seriously doubt any part of the article about them would be dedicated to their role in the "opression of national culture" of let's say Tibet or Kashmir. I don't see relevance of this section in the article aside from of course a known crusade of some people on Wikipedia with a goal to add some "Polish imput" to many Russia-related articles. Fisenko 04:05, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"To 99 % of people even in Poland is just a unique Russian children fictional folklore characte" Most people born before 89 were subject to this Russification campaign.I personally was also subject to this.Unless you can provide sources that such campaign wasn't put into motion I see no reason for deletion.After all it affected whole country of 38 milion people. Your objection seems to come from purely emotional and personal reasons. --Molobo 14:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yor claims are clearly exaggerated and you know it. You are not the only one who is personally familiar with the realities of communist Poland. Fisenko 18:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ded Moroz is not a folklore character, it is not from a tale. It's Ok and normal to say that Ded Moroz replaced St Nicholas in countries of Soviet block because religion was banned. Ded Moroz is known and popular because he is there instead of St Nick and this fact worth explaining. 17:26, 22 December 2005 (CET)

Ded Moroz is a folklore character and claiming otherwise can only be ascribed to lack of knowledge. As far as Polish sentiment goes, it clearly has its place. However, this is not it. This is an article about a specific character - Ded Moroz, which is a Russian character in nature. Polish character has a different name, and though it may be derived from Ded Moroz, so is part of a composite figure of modern Santa Claus. Each deserves a separate article and this is what I propose to do. There could be, potentially, a disambiguation article that leads to Russian, Polish, Bulgarian etc similar figures from their english translation as "grandfather frost". Polish grievances in this article appear to me to constitute what can be described as an emotional response.

Polish character has a different name, and though it may be derived from Ded Moroz, so is part of a composite figure of modern Santa Claus There is no Polish character, Ded Moroz never existed in Poland, it was simply introduced(without any success) during Soviet occupation of Poland from Russia. Thus there is no "Polish version" just the Russian one that was used in one of attempts of Soviet Propaganda that boasted of such things as "slavic" ties etc. --Molobo 21:03, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"At the beginning of the Soviet era, the communist authorities banned Ded Moroz" there was mostly criticism of Santa Claus, but there was no direct ban on him and what does it mean that Santa Claus was brought during the "Soviet occupation" if the name was the same before the 20th century, and that since your Polish character looks like Santa Claus, the Russian Santa Claus himself looks like santa claus , since both characters are Indo-European and because they are similar, there is no "Soviet influence" here at all 37.54.230.242 (talk) 19:08, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Illustration

Although the stamp image is nice, it's not a legitimate use of a copyrighted stamp image. Googling for Ded Moroz images gives me 937 images, many of which look "Soviet PD", one of those would be a good substitute. Stan 14:13, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

Three separate articles for three pronunciations of the same character's name in closely related languages, seems excessive. It's not a matter of resources per se, but of focusing improvements on (and preventing disimprovements in) one article. Please merge Dziadek Mróz and Dzied Maroz with this article. --Trovatore 21:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. —Michael Z. 2006-11-05 03:50 Z

Red coat?

Ded Moroz wears a blue coat, AFAIK. At least he did last time I saw him... --Illythr 23:20, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Santa Claus wears both blue and red and white coats 37.54.230.242 (talk) 19:09, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • ded moroz
37.54.230.242 (talk) 19:48, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet Russian Kamrad (talk) 07:26, 27 December 2009 (UTC)His coat is RED! I guarantee ya. Snegurochka wears Blue coat.[reply]

I have photographic evidence that Ded Moroz wears a red coat on occasion. I had my picture taken with him on Khreshchatyk sometime in the 1980's, and he was wearing a bright red coat. Granted of course, he was a Party member at the time. 24.47.154.230 (talk) 01:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Russia?

No section on Russia? Suprising.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Read article? --Irpen 16:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Rewrite the article? History sais practically nothing about modern Russia.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet Russian Kamrad (talk) 08:29, 27 December 2009 (UTC)In modern Russia Ded Moroz is a brand of Veliky Ustyug.[reply]

GLONASS Tracks Ded Moroz Project

The "GLONASS Tracks Ded Moroz Project" section is suffering from the same problems that bedeviled the NORAD Tracks Santa article for months. It is largely written in an "in universe" style, describing a fictional character as real and saying that technology is really used to track him. It requires clean-up.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 16:24, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have now done some heavy editing to that section to remove all the fanciful elements.
When editing the section, please, remember that GLONASS Tracks Ded Moroz is essentially a work of fiction and a public relations exercise. It is not appropriate on an encyclopedia to write about fictional characters as if they were real people and this is not a venue for posting puff pieces that give free advertising to your favourite websites.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 11:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Grandfather Frost

In some contexts in russian language the word "grandfather" can be used to any old man (with familiarity). So Grandfather Frost means Gaffer Frost, not Father. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iceman by (talk • contribs) 03:25, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A native language speaker addition.
A Russian the word "ded" could both mean "grandfather" and "old (elder) man". It's really unclear what meaning is meant here. Владимир Казаринов (talk) 14:30, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ukraine

Why no mention of Ukraine in this article? I have been told by Ukrainians about Ded Moroz. I am no expert on the subject but Ukraine is conspicuous by its absence.Firebuild (talk) 22:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why? What a silly question. Because the Russians think the Ukraine IS Russia. That's why. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.90.39 (talk) 07:12, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Santa Claus

This term in Russian "Ded Moroz" and in Slavic languages "Djed Mraz" is synonymous to English term "Santa Claus". Therefore, I will suggest its' merge to Santa Claus. --Munja (talk) 13:36, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

- Oppose merge. Ded Moroz is absolutely not synonymous to English term Santa Claus. Jirka.h23 (talk) 13:44, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose merge; it is not synonymous. Doremo (talk) 14:27, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose merge. This is a different topic. So are Joulupukki, La Befana and other Christmas characters in various cultures.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.39.35.3 (talk • contribs) 07:17, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose merge. ignorant nomination. - üser:Altenmann >t 06:29, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose merge. Although this character is similar in many aspects to Santa, he has his own history and features. --Off-shell (talk) 20:13, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

LOL. It's a direct rip-off of Santa Claus. He just doesn't have reindeer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.90.39 (talk) 07:10, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Ded Moroz. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 00:55, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Suspect edit

Hello, I have noticed this edit changes facts while citation remains the same (and does not match the - now changed - text). I might be wrong though, can someone review this: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Ded_Moroz&type=revision&diff=736739564&oldid=728224047 As far as I recall "celebration of Christmas" was never actually forbidden in ex-YU, just frowned-upon (and the edit claims that it was forbidden). --Neikius (talk) 12:34, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The text was inaccurate because the private celebration of Christmas was not forbidden. It has been corrected and two sources have been added. Doremo (talk) 13:13, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Ded Moroz. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:41, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Ded Moroz. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:34, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Santa's grandfather?

The article claims that "Some people also say, that Ded Moroz is Santa Claus's grandfather." Is there any basis for this? Tbibenji (talk) 01:33, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Snegurochka

There is a request for a ref as to the link made between Snegurochka and Anastasia/diminutives of Anastasia. I tried to find a suitable reference. Not only could I not find a suitable reference from a reliable source, I couldn’t find any reference at all. From searching the net, google books etc it appears that not only are there no sources backing this statement up, but all mentions online linking the two are articles written relying on Wikipedia for the information. (The phrasing is exactly as in our article). Since we seem to be spreading misinformation through this section of this article, and since the point seems to be rather tangential to the focus of the article - do we really need alternate names and diminutives for a figure who is a companion of the figure the article is actually about? - I’m going to remove that small section. If someone has a reliable source for this half a sentence I am removing then please do reinsert it and provide the source. Dakinijones (talk) 15:39, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ded_Moroz&oldid=1130897189"