Talk:River Shannon

Britain in lead

If anything the correct term would be British Isles as the geographic entity rather than Britain which is a country and more properly referred to as the United Kingdom. Personally I don't see that as particularly important and it is mentioned below in the geography section. Could I ask though that there be no more edit warring on this but a proper discussion. The person sticking this in might be wrong about the details but I don't see it as vandalism and both are eligible for wp:3rr sanctions. Dmcq (talk) 10:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Nah, instead of showing up on the talkpage here or replying on his own page, he reverted you. Night of the Big Wind _talk 04:13, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

It was previously discussed as I remember it, Ireland in the lede, British Isles mentioned later --Snowded ^TALK 06:05, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Changed by IP, I reverted. Should it not actually mention what country it is in in the lead, or do we just stick to geographical locations? River Lagan mentions Northern Ireland, not Ireland - as in island- where the rivers in the republic only mention the island in the lead. Does anyone know why? Cheers. Murry1975 (talk) 17:53, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Seeing as the River Severn is described as being the second longest in the British Isles, "behind the River Shannon", I assumed it made sense to include a similar note here. 143.239.9.1 (talk) 11:33, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

This issue seems to have raised its ugly head again, after several years of stability. I noticed someone swapped 'British Isles' for 'Ireland and Great Britain', which I reverted. However, another editor then queried the references and undid my revert. I contacted him about it, but so far he hasn't replied. This is not about references. The sentence containing the term was already referenced. The edit simply replaced one term for another, so according to BRD, and to maintain stability - and hopefully keep a lid on the can of worms - I put back the original. I will do so again later. 31.52.164.194 (talk) 11:47, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Why is it necessary to mention British Isles/Britain at all. If you look at wiki page for River Severn it says its the longest river in Great Britain not the 2nd longest river in the British Isles. Why is it necessary to benchmark Irish rivers against those of Great Britain.

Can we not say Longest river in Ireland. (the end). 195.75.179.146 (talk) 11:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

That would be the commonsense solution. But bolstered by sheer numbers, certain folk want to impose a certain viewpoint on Ireland-related articles. Sarah777 (talk) 11:42, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

As in: longest river on the island of Ireland? The Banner talk 14:26, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

As an Irish person themselves there doesn't seem to be any need to change the page from how it currently is, the fact that it is the longest river in the British Isles is one of the most notable things about it. Dubarr18 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:17, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

One of the most notable things about it is that it is the longest river in the islands of GB and Ireland. Nobody is questioning that. Sarah777 (talk) 17:26, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Neither Ireland nor the Shannon are in the British Isles. Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 02:35, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Are you sure? British Isles tells another story. Ow, and the non-existing source can be found on page 21 of https://www.epa.ie/publications/research/water/EPA-RR-207-final-web-2.pdf The Banner talk 09:39, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Please look at page 21 of that document. It mentions The British Isles nowhere except in the titles of other document in the references. And do not revert valid changes. Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 17:24, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

The British Isles is a geographical term. Ireland, the island - whether you like it or not - is one of the British Isles. It is customary to refer to geographical features in terms of largest in, longest in, highest in, deepest in, etc. The Shannon is the longest river in the British Isles. It would be weird to not say so. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:30, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Are you really looking for WP:SKYISBLUE references? Really?! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:31, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

The reference that has now been inserted again does not say that the Shannon is the longest river in the British isles. You're reverting to a false reference. Try being a competent editor.Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 17:40, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Excuse me?! Try not being a dick. There is already a perfectly good reference further on in the page showing that the Shannon is TLRitBI. If you want several more, I had several more ready to insert when I ran into an edit conflict with The Banner and left their version. The issue, of course, isn't the reference, it's that you don't acknowledge the term British Isles. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 18:04, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

The issue is their reference, which does not use the language used. As for anyone being a dick, how about the people attacking an editor for insisting on accurate reference? That'd be you and the Banner. Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 13:21, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Twasonasummersmorn what exactly is the nature of your objection here? As has been pointed out numerous times by other editors the source provided clearly states that the Shannon is the longest river in the British Isles under the cited section. At the very end of page 21 we are told; 'the largest of them all, the Shannon, which is the longest river in Britain and Ireland.' The source is quite clear in its information and the page states solely this information. Is your objection solely that the source does not explicitly use the term 'British Isles?' In that case it is site wide convention to use that term as it is the accepted academic term.Dubarr18 (talk) 12:50, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

The nature of my objection is that the cited link does not use the term in the text. And that The Banner repeatedly re-inserted it. And that term is not the accepted academic term. Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 13:20, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

So then to clarify Twasonasummersmorn I was correct in stating that your objection was the source not explicitly stating the term 'British Isles'? The usage is the accepted academic term throughout the world, even in Ireland where I myself am from. It is widely acknowledged as being called the British Isles and it is side wide policy to name it as such. Editing as you currently are amounts to little more than vandalism of the page as consensus is to refer to it under the term British Isles.

If you are genuinely trying to change the site wide usage of the term then the proper avenue to take would, from my understanding, be to make a proposal on the associated wikiproject page. From what I gather however such proposals were already made in the past and failed. You would have to find the associated wikiproject and discuss changing the term there, that would make it vastly more likely for this change to succeed than your current route.Dubarr18 (talk) 14:25, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Again, I have changed the inaccurate text to accurate text. The text that was reinserted again by other editors did not reflect the text of the cited source. Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 13:27, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

In case The Banner tries to revert my change again, here's the text of the document he keeps insisting talks about the British Isles. It doesn't. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kKo1psZQmjzwgGsc3_c0f4_Pr0NiqTOa/view Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 14:02, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

I notice that the Banner has again reverted that change and re-inserted text that does not match the reference. Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 15:03, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

And if you revert again, it will be restored to the consensus version, i.e., stating that the Shannon is the longest river in the British Isles. It is referenced. Dunno what you're on about, talking about "the accepted academic term." The British Isles is the common name for the island group of which Ireland and Britain are part; and it is normal to refer to geographical features in terms of "(superlative) in (largest encompassing geographic area)"; c.f. Nile, Amazon River, County Cork. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:40, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

That's nonsense and you know it Bastun....Sarah777 (talk) 23:18, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

You or I might not like the term, you might not use it, but it is used in Ireland, moreso in Britain, and worldwide is definitely the most common term for Britain, Ireland, and their associated islands. Even if that's changing, it's still currently the case. The Shannon is the longest river on the islands.It is normal to refer to things as "(superlative) in (largest encompassing geographic area)" - we don't say Cork is the biggest county in Munster, we say it's the biggest in Ireland, and Everest is the world's highest mountain, not just Nepal's. Edit warring over something factual and referenced will get the warrior blocked. Not seeing where the nonsense is, Sarah. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:48, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

The primary issue here is that the Banner repeatedly re-inserted text that was not supported by the reference. Repeatedly. And did so accusing other editors (me) of POV as he did it. Even after I gave a screenshot of how the reference did not support the text. Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 20:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Sarah77 this is not 'nonsense' in any sense of the term, you yourself previously agreed with this stance in a previous discussion related to this matter. I am unsure as to why you are now arguing that is is a nonsensical term when it is the side wide convention to refer to the region under the term British Isles.Dubarr18 (talk) 14:25, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

You'll have to remind me of when I agreed "British Isles" was a suitable term for Wiki to use for these islands. Citation? Sarah777 (talk) 22:39, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

It is only the site-wide convention because of long term gang-editing. And ignoring references. Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 20:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Once again, I have had to correct the text in the first paragraph to match the reference. The reference does not say "British Isles". It says Britain and Ireland. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kKo1psZQmjzwgGsc3_c0f4_Pr0NiqTOa/view Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 23:08, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

And now Bastun has reinserted the bad text on the basis that "Britain and Ireland is the British Isles". Which is not what the British Isles article says. Stop inserting your opinion. Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 23:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

If you want to be tiresomely pedantic about it, the British Isles are a group of islands in the North Atlantic Ocean off the north-western coast of continental Europe, consisting of the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man, the Inner and Outer Hebrides, the Northern Isles, and over six thousand smaller islands. The Shannon is the longest river in the British Isles. It is normal to refer to geographical features in terms of the {superlative} geographical feature in the largest encompassing {geographical region}. If you don't like a reference using 'Britain and Ireland' instead of 'British Isles', shrug, that doesn't mean the Shannon isn't in the British Isles. I can insert several more references stating that tRSitlritBI, but Dubarr18 will probably remove them again, saying the one we have is fine. Bottom line, though - you've no consensus to remove the term from the article because you don't like it. Or because Banner's reference doesn't use the term. In fact, statements in the lede - which should reflect the body of the article - don't need references; the reference in the article body does use the term 'British Isles'. Are we done? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:19, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Edit-warring notice issued. I've also re-inserted the additional references. You might want to read WP:CON. It's policy. You might also want to read WP:BRD. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:29, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

If the references are good, that's fine. I look at references. And your edit warring notice is just you pushing your POV again. Particularly since it's easy to prove that my edit was supported by the reference and yours (as seems usual) was not. Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 23:36, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I have requested protection because of your edit warring and POV-pushing. The Banner talk 01:02, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Good luck. Since it's clear that your changes are not supported by the references and mine are.

I'm also curious why you reverted changes I made on the Provisional IRA article. I have since added the references. Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 01:38, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Split proposal

To my opinion the article is getting confusing. So I therefore suggest to split parts of this article off to a new article: Shannon Basin. As this article is about the river, mixing facts between river and basin is not in the best interest of the article. Giving both the river and the wider basin its own place, serves the public in the best way. The Banner talk 23:57, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I would have to agree. I've had that thought before but due to my limitations as a Wiki editor I've postponed the idea! I find the entire Shannon River basin fascinating and indeed think it worthy of a seperate article - not just a sub-section Johnnyf1nn (talk) 08:30, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

It gives you also the option to move the "tributaries with its source further than the official river source" to that article. The Banner talk 09:37, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

that's true although I still think the Owenmore river should be mentioned in the Shannon River article as it's so relevant to the Shannon Pot source and gets a mention in all River Shannon books that I've read, whereas the Boyle source could be moved to the new articleJohnnyf1nn (talk) 10:05, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

That will be your decision then. What serves the public best, should be done. The Banner talk 10:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I think I'll leave the map of the Upper Shannon for the moment, as it shows clearly the Shannon's source above L. Allen. The only other map in the article is a very basic map of the course of the Shannon with incorrect info - Lough Boyle (should be Lough Key)Johnnyf1nn (talk) 23:02, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Other Sources

It's amazing that while other furthest sources (with measurements) can be mentioned with impunity on other rivers like the Thames, the same cannot be said for the Shannon! What's relevant for one river should be equally relevant for all rivers.Johnnyf1nn (talk) 01:51, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps because you are already years hammering on it but not coming up with rather recent sources conform WP:RS. The Banner talk 04:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:RS re-directs to Wikipedia:WikiProject Skepticism which ensures that these articles "do not put forward invalid claims as truth".

As recently as late 2014, in the Boyle River (Ireland) article, I'd given two reliable sources supporting the claim that the Boyle River catchment contains the furthest source within the River Shannon basin. Here's a link to a European Commission map of the main European rivers - http://ccm.jrc.ec.europa.eu/documents/ccm2mainrivers_map_100dpi.pdf. Zooming in on Ireland, it can be seen that the Shannon basin's longest river (as guided by the legend box) is the western (Boyle river) source. Also here is a link - http://www.riverhabitatsurvey.org/category/gis/ - giving 290 km (180ml) as the length of river flow from the River Boyle source to Limerick. - River Habitat Survey - when added to the Shannon's 97 km estuary this gives a total river flow of 387 km (240 ml). This merely verifies what can be seen in the Upper Shannon map. So, why the skepticism? I'm only trying to put this information into the River Shannon article the same as similar information has been put into the River Thames article!Johnnyf1nn (talk) 09:43, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Earlier I have suggested to split the article in one about the river and one about the basin. I repeat that now. The Banner talk 10:33, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

which was done - anyway I'll park this for now!Johnnyf1nn (talk) 11:23, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

River Source

Shannon Pot traditionally and mystically was considered the source of the River Shannon, but recent research notes that Pigeon Pot in Co Fermanagh is the true source. Considering updating this information in this article on the River Shannon and on the Cuilcagh and Shannon Pot pages too. Looking for feedback on this change, considering it is a big change. Sources I have are as follows:

• https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/blacklion-safari-1.1797541
• https://presspack.rte.ie/2017/07/23/new-series-creedons-shannon/
• https://cavesofireland.wordpress.com/home/caves/pigeon-pot/
• https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfbPB0MWIAAsINp.jpg:large [signage at the Shannon Pot]
• The Source of the River Shannon, Ireland by Professor John Gunn - PUBLISHED IN ENVIRONMENTAL GEOLOGY, 27, 1996, pages 110-112.

--Lukemcurley (talk) 11:21, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

This story is already described in Shannon Pot. The Banner talk 16:41, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

It should be mentioned here, considering the source of the River Shannon is incorrectly referring to the Shannon Pot in the current article. It has been scientifically proven the true source is the Pigeon Pot. Understanding a new article on the Pigeon Pot should also be forthcoming. Currently I am trying to source a photo of the Pigeon Pot in the public domain to add to WikiCommons too.--Lukemcurley (talk) 12:14, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Protect Page

I think it should be considered to protect the page as there has been of late a high increase in the amount of IP addresses coming on and removing any reference to the British Isles on the article and replacing it with Ireland. Not only are these incorrect as per sources but they are also becoming increasingly disruptive. Protecting the page for a while may deter this. Dubarr18 (talk) 20:02, 28 June 2022 (UTC)