Talk:Tiffany Young

American vs Korean-American?

So there's two IPs and one new editor insisting on making the page say "Korean-American" instead of "American" despite some indication not to do that (including a hidden comment). What's all that about? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 03:28, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

My memory's a little hazy on how we handle these things, but the one thing I do know for certain is that she not Korean-American, that description implies she holds dual citizenship, which we have no reliable source for. The description Korean American is also not acceptable to me since it still implies dual citizenship, dropping a hyphen like the editor has done now. Personally I prefer the old version, which lists her as American and leaves her Korean heritage to be mentioned in the main body. If pushed I might compromise to "American singer of Korean descent" but that is not ideal at all.DragonFury (talk) 08:23, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

She is korean-american not just American 328Oops (talk) 09:28, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

This is contradictory to the wikipedia page on Korean Americans, which uses it as: "Korean Americans are Americans of Korean ancestry". This use is consistent with the use on koreans site on wikipedia too. We should use this term and link to the page. If you link to the page it no longer imples dual citizenship, since the page it linkes to refrecenes the apropriate definition. This will avoid confusion and solves the problem. Generationgaram (talk) 15:05, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Echoing same thoughts as DragonFury. Using/Adding "Korean–American" here will goes against MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES of which, to my knowledge she doesn't hold South Korean passport or has been seen in public (like airports) photographed to be holding one, I had only seen her photographed holding US passport before. The word/term "Korean-American" was sneakily added in January 2023 via this diff by IP despite the hidden note and pending changes protection of which also noting that 3000+ revisions prior dating back to September 2011 (which is 12 years ago) doesn't use the word/term "Korean-American" in which this sentence "... an American singer ..." has remains intact since then with the only differences between now and then is the inclusion of "based in South Korea" after "an American singer" which was removed by one idiot IP via this diff with the most ridiculous edit summary ever, of which I'm not exactly sure why this wasn't red flagged at that point of removal. I would suggest either following DragonFury suggestion of "Amercian singer of Korean descent" but we will need to add back the "singer-songwriter" portion or my suggestion to restore back the previous wording of "an American singer-songwriter based in South Korea" however do note that we're repeating the same thing (South Korea) again in the next sentence unless we copyedit that sentence. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 15:43, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Being Korean American is an integral part of Tiffany's identity both as a singer and as an individual as stated by herself multiple times throughout her career, which has been acknowledged by sources such as MTV, NME and H&M Group (which she was an ambassador of). As Generationgaram pointed out, it also matches the definition given by the article on Korean Americans, which states that "Korean Americans are Americans of Korean ancestry" - Tiffany was born in the United States to Korean parents, which I think everyone is well aware of. This isn't a matter of nationality pure and simple, but of respecting one's identity, ethnicity and heritage instead of erasing it. Vowlenhart (talk) 17:14, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the discussion is on the hypenated version anymore. Even tho many wikipedia pages use the hypenated version to refer to people who do not have dual citicenship. See:Jessica Jung List of songs written and produced by Bang Chan Derek Kirk Kim and to refer to people who do have dual citizenship, see:Rosé (singer) Krystal Jung

(If we want to maintain consistency, we should edit their sites too so there is a distinction)

I think the discussion now is whether to use "Korean American" with the link to the page defining that a Korean American is an American of Korean descent. like: Jae Lee

or "based in south Korea" like: AleXa Mark Lee (singer)

or " American (xx) of south Korean decent" written out.

Is the narrow definition of nationality something that is exclusive to the English Wikipedia page? She is referred to as a second generation korean-american or just korean-american in most of the other pages. (korean, japanese, chinese, french, dutch.) I only found the Russian and english page not using this, and the russian page said american singer active in korea.

I am fine with not having korean american in the lead, but there is no part of her page that says she is korean american. We should at least then start the "life and career" with:

Tiffany Young was born on August 1989, 8, in San Francisco, California, USA, as a second-generation Korean American. (or something like that)

I think completely erasing her Korean side when she has on multiple occasions said how difficult this was for her would be a misstep, particularly since there are other Korean Americans without dual citizenship who are referred to as Korean American on their pages. She is also referred to by media as a Korean American singer, so we should strive to keep the page consistent with how she, and others describe her. Generationgaram (talk) 18:46, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

How about "Korean singer-songwriter of American nationality"? Or "American-born Korean singer". Otherwise I would support changing it to "American singer of Korean ethnicity/ancestry" to try to reduce the amount of edits caused by this confusion. Solemn Penance (talk) 17:50, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Identity, ethnicity and heritage are all matters that should be described in the main body of the article, the lead should contain the nationality, and only the nationality. The article on Korean Americans concerns the ethnicity, not the nationality. Just to further my point; people like Randall Park, Michelle Steel, Juju Chang, and Andy Kim are all mentioned explicitly in that article, and all have a lead that describes them as American. Contrast this with Jay Kim, who was born in Korea and thus holds Korean citizenship, he is described in the lead as Korean-American having presumably acquired American citizenship sometime before the start of his political career.DragonFury (talk) 17:37, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

It does say:

- Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable.

I'm new so can you please send me the link to were it says that the lead can only have the persons nationality?

The term Korean american refers to an american national with korean decent/ethnicity. Not just to ethnicity.

In the page you mentioned (jay kim) both korean-american and korean american is used in the lead. The first one, which is hypenated link to the page for korea and the second the page for america. To illustrate nationality. The second time it is used to outline one of his accomplishments "korean american" is used (while linking to the site we suggested). He was elected in 1992, before SK allowed dual citizenships - which means he only had an american citizenship at the time. Which is why both terms are being used.

The page you provided is a good example of how we can include both nationality and ethnicity in the lead. Generationgaram (talk) 19:40, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

So I've been going through some of the pages mentioned here and it seems to be a bit of an inconsistent mess, and going through the talk pages I see this is not the first time this discussion has been had, not the first time I've been involved in a discussion such as this. Just as example: This article uses "American" in the lead, as do most of the articles I've linked earlier. Krystal Jung uses "Korean-American" but Paper9oll mentions in the talk page that she's been seen using a Korean passport in photos, so that checks out. Then there is the page on her sister: Jessica Jung which used "South Korean-American" which is just patently wrong and which I've corrected (see my recent edit on that page). But then we get into some weirdness: Rosé has her lead as "a Korean-New Zealand singer and dancer based in South Korea", in AleXa's article the lead has "an American singer based in South Korea", and Jeon Somi includes the phrase "a Korean and Canadian singer, rapper and dancer" even though there is a reliable source that states she has three nationalities (Canadian by birth, Korean through her mother, Dutch through her father). Furthermore, reading up on Korean nationality law, it currently automatically grants Korean citizenship to anyone with a Korean parent, regardless of where they were born. But before 1998 it only did so if the father was Korean, and people with a Korean mother had to apply for it separately. In all, it's an unholy mess. DragonFury (talk) 20:20, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Since there's no consensus on the lead for K-pop singers born outside of Korea, I think it's best to have it as "a Korean American singer-songwriter" since that article covers both her nationality and ethnicity. This also won't break MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES. Solemn Penance (talk) 22:26, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2023

Please change “Stephanie Young Hwang (born August 1, 1989), known professionally as Tiffany or Tiffany Young,[3] is an American singer-songwriter.” To “Stephanie Young Hwang (born August 1, 1989), known professionally as Tiffany or Tiffany Young,[3] is a Korean-American singer-songwriter.” Maincoonkitten44 (talk) 03:48, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 05:23, 9 February 2023 (UTC)