Talk:Isis

Fellatio?

Can the person who added the "Isis making fellatio to Osiris" picture substantiate it? A search on Google does not return any immediate results. Abdousi 18:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Making this the disambiguation page

I thought turning this into a disambiguation page made sense. Comments?Andylehrer 04:34, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• Awesome. I think it makes perfect sense because most people will primarily think of "Isis" as the Egyptian goddess. That would be the primary usage of the name. All other meanings, I think, are more secondary. --Glengordon01 06:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

• By making the Isis page a disambiguation page, do you mean that you would put the disambiguation stuff at the top of the article and leave the content of the current Isis article where it is, or am I missing something?--The Great Honker 17:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Isis and Apulejus' Metamorphoses

Shouldn't a reference be made to the Metamorphoses of Apulejus? After all, for a 2nd century literary work, the last chapter contains a description of the initiation rites. And subscribers to her worship probably increased in the Roman world, just from reading the work.

Isis/Aphrodite

the stuff on Mary supplanting a goddess who exposed her genitals sounds a bit fabricated. Whoever placed that please reference the claims in tthe article? Eduardo Cuellar

• Read the section more carefully - the exposing genitals thing is in the section that says Egyptologists disagree with the Mary - Isis link; it's one of the arguments showing the differences between the two. As far as references, they are at the bottom of the article; the precise thing comes from Richard H. Wilkinson (2003), The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt, pp 148-149. Take a look at this figurine from the Leipzig University museum: [1]. Flyboy Will 20:05, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
  • k, thanks. my bad. just on the edge because of people who do make up stuff/exaggerate on wiki religion articles. Eduardo Cuellar
    • This is a mythology article. --Victim of signature fascism 00:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
      • There is no way to separate religion from mythology, they are one and the same: religions eventually "become" mythology.--65.45.207.50 18:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)MAC
      • I actually wouldn't emphasise the similarities that much in that section - the separation in time is too great. That's like saying George W Bush follows the policies of Abe Lincoln, because they're both Republicans.The breatfeeding Isis predates the cult of Mary by several centuries; by the time Christianity hit big-time, the breastfeeding / mother aspect was not all significant. Isis in Graeco-Roman times was mainly a hedonistic Goddess of earthly pleasures, something that can't be easily tied into Mary. If you're looking for a pagan source for Virgin Mary, Isis is just not it. Flyboy Will 17:28, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

If you check out the 20BC and Ptolomeic images I added, you'll see that breastfeeding Isis was very much still part of iconography. Indeed the images are almost identical to Christian ones.

For example, the major mediaeval icon is almost identical to the 5th century (christian) one, the angels replacing crosses. It is also almost identical to Ptolomeic images, as shown. Indeed, the only difference between the two images is that someone has painted on extra clothes, much like the later censorship of renaissance nudes in art. Everything is otherwise identical, even down to the position of the arm - just as if she is holding her breast to her baby, with someone later painting clothes to censor it (Yes, the clothes were there originally, but it still looks like they were copying earlier iconography where they weren't present). --Victim of signature fascism | help remove biblecruft 17:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

My recent changes / reverts

I've reverted a few changes by user:-Ril-, and here are my justifications:

• "However, the hieroglyph for her name used originally meant (female) of flesh, i.e. mortal, and she may simply have represented deified, real, queens." Original research, or a fringe theory at best. If there are some reputable modern references for this theory it might be added to the article somewhere, but I really don't think it belongs in the header.

It's simply what her name translates as according to other uses of the word in the old kingdom era.

References?

• "(with ? representing the glottal stop)" - I highly recommend Ancient Egyptian : A Linguistic Introduction by Antonio Loprieno, ISBN: 0521448492. If there even was anything before "s-t" in her name, and if it contained a consonant, it was likely an r in Old Egyptian. But overall, throughout millenia of the language history, we can't just assume that there was always a glottal stop in there.

Most academics, however, do.

References?

• "(Isis being the wife of Osiris, king of the underworld)" Nobody ever said Isis ever met with Osiris after his resurrection, or ever lived in the underworld.

She was still considered as his wife BEFORE the myth of his resurrection even came into existance.

References? Got a bit paste-happy here. The sentence in question is used to somehow support some sort of conflict between a star above the underworld, and Isis. there is no conflict, per the above. Isis was never in the underworld. Flyboy Will 20:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

• Iconography vs Depictions. I'm sorry, what? The way a deity is depicted in art is called Iconography. Her associations with other deities and her titles are not iconography. See The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt by Richard H. Wilkinson, for a good example of the usage of the term.
• menat necklace is not the usekh broad collar, which is crescent-moon shaped. Here's a menat: [2]. It is actually believed to represent an udder or a breast - look up some related words like mnjw, mnmnt, not to mention mnd.

Looking up similarly spelt words and drawing any sort of conclusion from them is original research

I'm not aware of any rules against original research in Talk. I am simply illustrating that you mistook one necklace for another.

• "As the deification of the wife of the pharaoh" and other related passages - again, either original reserarch of a fringe theory. This is by no means a widely accepted view of early Isis.

It certainly is. In much the same as horus took the role of the deified Pharaoh.

Dead wrong. But just to humor you, let's see some references.

• A whole paragraph in Mother of Horus went on about supposed reasonings behind her becoming the mother of Horus, the need for the resurrection of Osiris, etc. It is, once again, either original reserarch of a fringe theory, and a poor one at that since many of the supposed outcomes of Isis merging with Hathor had already existed prior to the merger.
• I've also restored most of the deleted sections, and restored their order.Flyboy Will 23:01, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I've undone it. They duplicated the content. --Victim of signature fascism | help remove biblecruft 17:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Reverting once again, since I saw absolutely no justifications for any of your theories, while I can provide a reliable source for every sentence in my changes. Flyboy Will 18:41, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Triad

I recently came across this reference to the worship, in the Roman cult of Isis, Osiris/Serapis or Anubis, and Horus (or Harpokrates): Isis, Osiris (alias Serapis) or Anubis and Horus (alias Harpokrates) form the travelling triad of Egyptianising divinities in the Roman Empire. Dowden, Ken. European Paganism : Realities of Cult from Antiquity to Middle Ages. London, UK: Routledge, 1999. p 220. Is there a link between worship of Isis and Serapis?L Hamm 15:53, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Worship??

THere is nothing in there, shouldn't it be deleted? Matt White 00:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed it, if anyone finds some worship info they can put it back. David 00:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge

I believe that Isis in literature should be merged with this page; whoever proposed the merge should go ahead with it. David P. A. Hunter 03:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why anyone shouldn't move Isis in literature to the Isis main page. It just seems like common sense to me. --The Great Honker 02:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree it would be an appropriate merge. L Hamm 16:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a huge difference between the usage of a mythological/religious personality in literature and the original stories of the personailty. To merge them would be a mistake. Imagine merging literary uses of Jesus Christ with a discussion of Christianity. Makes no sense.65.45.207.50 18:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)MAC

I think it would be perfectly appropriate to merge literary uses of Christ into a page on Christianity. Maybe I'll just try the merge myself. --The Great Honker 16:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

There, I did it. My first merging, too. (Applause, Encore)--The Great Honker 16:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

isis and hinduism...

it's interesting that isis is pronounced the way it is: "The Egyptian hieroglyphs for her name are commonly transliterated as js.t"...In hinduism, "divine feminine" is referred to as Shakti. It's interesting that both pronunciations are so similar.

Isis in Greek

Can someone tell me what exactly Isis’ name in Ancient Greek is? I saw that Isidor means Gift of Isis, but I'd like to know what part exactly means gift and what part means of Isis. (Marko)

---

And you didn't bother to read the "Origin of the name" section here in the Isis article?

• Isis is not a Greek name and means nothing in that language.
• It's an Ancient Egyptian name:

• ʔŪsat, 'She of the Throne' (from
• ʔūs 'throne').

• The Greek word for gift is dōron.

--Glengordon01 21:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

---

Christianity

I have added a NPOV dispute tag. It seems to give a lot of support to arguments that are disputed by Catholics and Orthodox Christians and the only source given is Jack Chick who is not a credible source and is far from neutral. I have no problem with this section if the other POV is also spoken for, but as it stands it states dsiputed theories as fact. ----Taz75 12:52 CST Janurary 31, 2007.

I think this recent revert is inaccurate, because it lessens the precision of the article. Catholicism is considered a form of Christianity, yes, but the adulation of Mary is unique to Catholicism. The anon's edit improved the article's precision. Johnleemk | Talk 18:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, I originally reverted the changes in question, and I did so for a few reasons. One, it appeared to be a blanket change with no explanation; two, the changes are not all gramatically correct (and by reverting, you re-entered the incorrect one: "...the primary influence behind Catholic's adoption of the cult..."); three, although it is true that Catholics are more known for their adulation of Mary than are other Christians, I don't think they exclusively own this label; and four, I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that such adoptions would have taken place before the split between Catholics and Protestants occurred, which would probably make "Christian" a more apt term in this instance. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think that at least some of my original issues are worth considering. I'm sure we can work something out. Thanks, romarin [talk ] 19:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a bit problematic, I agree, that adulation of Mary appears in limited forms in Anglican and Orthodox theology, but overall, AFAIK, the adulation of Mary is a central tenet only of Catholic theology, or theology derived from Catholicism (such as that of Anglo-Catholics). Adulation of Mary is present in some other denominations, but not nearly to the same extent as in Catholicism, so arguably it would be more precise to mention the historic link between Catholicism and Isis instead of Christianity and Isis.

The problem, actually, is that I appear to be thinking in terms of the present (where Marianism is central only to Catholic theology) instead of the past, where one could argue that Marianism predominated Christian thought. We are faced with a quandary because prior to the Reformation, it was generally accepted that Christianity and Catholicism were synonymous, whereas in the present day, they are/should not. The adoption of the Isis cult is generally alleged to have occurred around the same time as when Constantine made Christianity/Catholicism the official faith of the Roman Empire; however, we run into neutrality issues if we describe "Christian" adoption of the cult because many Christians (e.g., the Protestant fundamentalists such as Jack Chick) would argue that Marianism is not Christian, and also that it would be more accurate to refer to the Catholic Church instead of Christianity in general because they deny that Catholicism and Christianity are synonymous (a perfectly reasonable view, IMO).

I agree that the present state of the article is not ideal, but it seemed more desirable to me than pegging Isis to Christianity in general. Johnleemk | Talk 19:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Johnleemk, for your detailed explanation. I understand your point and where you're coming from much better now, and I agree with your assessment. Thanks, romarin [talk ] 02:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's not forget Chick comics! A Fundamentalist Christian (Independant Baptist), Jack Chick gleefully promotes the idea (the heritage of 19th century anti-Catholic apologetics) that Catholicism is pagan idolatry warmed over. Thus his ilk see not only parallels or similarties, but real links. To him, Mary IS Isis, and the cult of this Goddess survives today in Marian "worship."

Theories of "corruption" of true Christianity (which assume a pristine Christian tradition that went wrong at some point, usually blamed on Constantine, or the Medieval Popes) risk violating NPOV if the are not merely described, but asserted as facts. Catholics and Orthodox over the centuries have written their own defenses of devotion to Mary and the Saints, against allegations of idolatry of course, so one could give equal time to such things if one wished (and I would hardly consider these "Fundamentalist" defenses, since they are a part of the faith of all Orthodox/Catholics, not just ultra-traditionalists). Anglican devotion to Mary I'm less familiar with, but being as how they come closer to the Catholic tradition than many other Protestants, this seems natural enough an assumption. It's a fundamental mistake however to equate worship of a Goddess with veneration of a saint. Both Orthodox and Catholics have strict taboos against worshipping human saints.. only the Triune God is worshipped (consult their catechisms if you think this is just apologetic nonesense of course).

Here's some links:

Orthodox apologetic [3]

sample Orthodox service venerating Mary: [4]

Jack Chick's version: [5]

Catholic apologetic [6]

Anglican-Catholic statement on Mary [7]

Also, I'd highly dispute the claim that devotion to Mary is a uniquely Catholic phenomenon. It is at least as powerful, if not moreso in Orthodoxy. Anyone who has attended a Greek Orthodox service will note the many prayers to Mary Theotokos (God Bearer). She's given more prominance in the Divine Liturgy (in Greek) even than in the Novus Ordo Catholic Mass (in english). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.247.134.46 (talk) 16:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

Recent Edits in the "Isis in Literature" section

What was the point of all the recent edits by GenerationsIncorporated? There were so many I am now confused. Could someone help me sort this out? Thanks.--The Great Honker 01:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC)