Talk:Eileen Collins

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 03:48, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

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Eileen Collins

• ... that Eileen Collins (pictured) was the first woman pilot of the Space Shuttle and the first woman to command a Space Shuttle Mission? Source: https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/collins_eileen.pdf
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Christine Ernst

5x expanded by Hawkeye7 (talk). Self-nominated at 05:53, 22 June 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article was recently expanded 5x and looks generally great. Picture is public domain and looks good. Hook is cited (straight to NASA no less) and interesting, so this one's ready. BuySomeApples (talk) 04:29, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Eileen Collins/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Balon Greyjoy (talk · contribs) 10:54, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Glad to see this article up for GAN! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:54, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Prose Comments

Lead

• I made a few changes in the last paragraph.

Early life

• Regarding her Irish heritage, I would take out her family coming over in the mid-1800s; that was quite a few generations before she was born, and there's no mention of the intervening years. If nothing else, there's no need to mention the info is from a speech, as the speech itself is quoted.

  Y Uggh. Americans always want to talk about that. Keeping it only out of respect to the original writers. Trimmed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• Not a deal breaker, but I think it's best to avoid names of siblings and children if they are not public figures.
• "After the war he ran the family bar, then became a surveyor, working for the city." I think it would be better to say that he owned/managed a bar? It may not be clear to all readers what a family bar is. Additionally, is the city he was working for Elmira? It's not clear from this, I would just say that he worked as a surveyor.

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "As a child, she was shy and needed speech therapy for her stutter." This sentence reads awkwardly since the subject of the previous sentence was Eileen's mother.

  The subject was still Collins, which is why I refer to "her mother". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "She expressed an interest in flying and in being a pilot" Since this is a long sentence, it would be less wordy to just say "She expressed an interest in becoming a pilot" since flying-interest falls under that.

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "Around this time, the United States Air Force (USAF) changed its policy to allow women to train as pilot, although only for non-combat missions. The first ten women chosen for pilot training were all serving Air Force officers with four-year college degrees. Collins noted their names and followed their progress and subsequent careers with interest, hoping to someday follow in their footsteps." This reads like women had been going through training long before Collins attended UPT, but they only graduated from pilot training a year before she started her pilot training.

  Y Tweaked the wording a bit here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "Colonel Vernon Hagen" I would take this name out and leave it as the Syracuse AFROTC commander; he's not a public figure.

  I prefer to name people. BLP does not apply here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "Collins eagerly accepted, but there was one hurdle: a physical examination at Hancock Field Air National Guard Base revealed that although she had 20/20 visual acuity in her right eye, she had only 20/25 in the left, leading to her being rejected." This makes it seem like Collins tried to accept the offer but was turned down because of her eyesight; I suspect she agreed to becoming a pilot and then it was a later screening?

  Y Tweaked the wording a bit here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Air Force career

• "In August 1978, she received orders to report to Lackland Air Force Base in Texas for the Flight Screening Program (FSP)" When did she actually start training at Lackland? This just says when he received orders in August 1978.

  In August 1978. Tweaked the wording here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• What is the significance of the men in her class either being in the Air National Guard or USAFA graduates? I don't see how it's relevant, and similar information is not given for the women in her FSP class.

  Y fair enough. Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "For her UPT, Collins wanted to go to Williams Air Force Base in Arizona, where the first ten women had trained,[10][17] but the USAF personnel office decided to send her to Vance Air Force Base in Enid, Oklahoma." This reads like Collins was actively trying to go to Williams and AFPC turned down her request; I'm assuming she just got orders to Vance and that was the end of it?

  Y Yes, she requested it, and the AFPC (not for the last time) ignored her. Made this clearer. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "On November 24, 1978, she became the first member of her class to fly solo." Is this significant? Did people in her class struggle relative to her? My guess is that she was just at the top of the list with a last name that comes early in the alphabet.

  Both Collins and her classmates saw this as indicating that she was the best performer. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "Finally, there was survival training and instruction in what to do if captured" Was this a part of pilot training? My guess is it was SERE training, which would be required to fly in a squadron but not a part of pilot training.

  Y Correct. Reorganised. Added the link. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "Now a captain, Collins set..." It's not clear how much time would have passed before she would make captain. I would say "Following her assignment at Vance" or the like since a date on that is given.

  All we know is that she was promoted while at Vance. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "Being a co-pilot seemed like a demotion after having been a flight instructor." I'm guessing this was a comment by Collins, but it's pretty routine to be assigned as a copilot when going to a new airframe (much like how the right-seater on the orbiter was effectively a copilot). I don't think this needs to be mentioned.

  Y Yes, it is what she says. Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "She flew long-range missions to the Far East, to Pacific islands" Referring to destinations in Asia as the Far East is pretty vague (I'm assuming she wasn't landing in China or North Korea). I would either give more specifics or leave that out, as it's implied she flew in the Pacific by going to islands there (are there specifics on which islands? I'm assuming Guam)

  Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "and to European destinations in support of the annual Exercise Reforger" I'm assuming she participated in multiple exercises, but only naming one makes it seem like it was the singular exercise she took part in.

  Y I thought "annual" would be a clue, but tweaked the wording slightly. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "After a long courtship," Is it a long courtship? They dated for 4 years, which is not short by any means but not exceptionally long either. I would just state when they began dating and later got married.

  Y Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• I'm assuming Collins and Youngs had two children total, but right after they get married it mentions they had two kids, and then later talks about Collins giving birth.

  Y An artefact of the evolution of the article. Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "This forced her to remain at the Air Force Academy for three years" This reads like she was unlucky and was forced to stay, but I'm assuming she committed to teaching at USAFA before she ever took the assignment? I would word it less strongly.

  Y Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• Capt Parker's middle name or nick name doesn't need to be mentioned; she's not in the rest of the article.

  I may write her up in the future. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Astronaut

• Maybe call this section "Astronaut career" or "NASA career"?

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "NASA training vehicle that duplicated the Space Shuttle's approach profile" Would it be "duplicated the orbiter's approach profile"?

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "The crew paid a visit to Russia and visited Star City and aircraft and spacecraft museums in the Moscow area, and sat in the cockpit of the Buran spacecraft, the Russian equivalent of the Space Shuttle." This is wordy; I would shorten it to "The crew visited Star City, Russian aerospace museums, and sat in the cockpit of the Russian Space Shuttle equivalent, Buran.

  Looks okay to me. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "she only ate Chex on the first three days, only eating her dinner for the first time on the fourth" Reads awkward to have two "only" phrases in a row.

  Y deleted the latter. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "Soon after returning from space, Collins became pregnant. Her first child, Bridget, was born nine month's later" When was her daughter born? It would make more sense to say that Collins became pregnant and gave birth in December 1995(guessing on that month/year). Also, I would take the name Bridget out, as she is not a public figure.

  Whereas I have kept the name, but omitted more birth date for privacy reasons. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "Collins had glimpsed her during the STS-63 mission" Is this significant? I'm sure all of the cosmonauts on board went to the window when the orbiter passed by. Maybe just say that Kondakova had been aboard Mir during STS-63.

  I think it is a good way of tying the two missions together. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• Is there more information about the time aboard Mir on STS-84? There's a lot of info about the exchange of cargo, but then little about the rest of time on the mission.

  Y Added a bit more. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "a Space Shuttle Mission" Is mission supposed to be capitalized?

  Y De-capitalised. Hawkeye7 (discuss)!

• "Collins was given Jeffrey Ashby, a rookie astronaut, as her pilot" I think that's a strange way to state that Ashby was assigned to the mission, as none of the missions where Collins was the pilot describe her as given to the mission commander.

  Y re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "This meant that it was the only Space Shuttle that could" I think this should read that it "was the only orbiter that could"

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "and the mission would then have been delayed for another fifteen" It's already mentioned that any delays would cause a fifteen month delay; I don't think it needs to be said again.

  Y Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "The touchdown at KSC was the most precise ever." What does this mean? I'm assuming it should be "accurate" instead?

  Collins says "precise", so going with that. See accuracy and precision for the difference. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

  I understand the difference between the two; that's why I ask. It's not like she made multiple landings throughout the mission that were all tightly grouped together. Despite it being her words, it's not clear what that means in this context. I think it shouldn't be included. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 02:02, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

  The problem is that then we have nothing to say what a good pilot she was. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, but there's shouldn't be a confusing or ambiguous term used due to a lack of options. She was the second USAF test pilot, the first woman to fly as a pilot on the Space Shuttle, and the only woman to command a Space Shuttle mission. I don't think the reader will be left doubting her ability. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 00:14, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

  This is my last hang up before passing the review. I'm removing the sentence. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 20:34, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

• I would remove the name of her son.
• "chief information officer at the Astronaut office" Is it supposed to be "Astronaut Office?" If it's not a title, I'm assuming it would then be "astronaut office"

  Y Capitalised. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "she became the chief of the Safety Branch vice Rick Husband," What doesn't "vice" mean here?

  What does it mean? "vice" means "in succession to". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

  I would reword it. I think "vice" is the verbal way a lot of people say "versus", so it reads like she was selected instead of Husband, rather than a successor. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 01:50, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

• Remove Jim Kelly's callsign.

  Y Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "was assembled, including ET-93, the one that shed a piece of insulation foam that had doomed Columbia, and ET-120, which was being assembled for the STS-114 mission" The Michoud facility made all of the ETs, so I don't think it needs to be specified that the the STS-107 and STS-114 tanks were from there.

  Y Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "Asked if she felt even a twinge of fear after the loss of Columbia" This reads like it's a quote; it could just say "asked if she was afraid"

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "She expressed reservations about the studs that held the Space Shuttle in place on the launch pad" I've never heard of the SRB bolds referred to as "studs". Is this terminology from Collins?

  Yes, it is. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• " first astronaut to fly a Space Shuttle through a complete 360-degree pitch maneuver" I think this should say the orbiter was flown through the maneuver.

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• "no threat from debris-related damage to the Shuttle upon reentry" orbiter vs. shuttle here as well

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• All of the other mission sections end with how long the flight was; it's a bit of a disconnect that the article talks about to delays of landing and then jumps to Collins being upset after her landing happened.

  Y Oversight on my part. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• Was the landing actually fast? It seems like there was no damage, so I'm not sure if it's significant if Collins just felt it was fast but it turns out that she wasn't.

  It was fast: 410 kph compared with 381 kph for STS-63, 354 kph for STS-84 and 361 kph for STS-93. (Personally I think any landing you walk away from is a good one, but I'm not a pilot.) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

  Add how fast it was and what was the norm (the Space Shuttle page says 195-295 kn); it makes it seem like it wasn't actually fast if the only mention is that she felt like it was fast. But no criticism of Collins; any landing of an object traveling 18,000 mph over Australia and gliding to a precision landing in Florida is impressive. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 01:59, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

  N Cannot add that. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

  I'm a little confused; what is the issue with stating that she actually landed fast, rather than that she felt she landed fast? Balon Greyjoy (talk) 00:17, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

• Because I don't have a source for that. I took the figures off spacefacts.de but that site is listed as unreliable. (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 273# Spacefacts) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:24, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

  Makes sense to me. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 20:34, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Later life

• "Since her retirement, Collins has made occasional public appearances as an analyst covering Shuttle launches and landings for CNN" This makes it seem like it still happens, when the Space Shuttle program has been done for 11 years.

  Y Was added in 2013. Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• It's a big disconnect that the same sentence mentions her being the possible pick for administrator of NASA and that she also was a keynote speaker at an event in Michigan in 2022. I don't think those should be in the same sentence.

  Y Deleted the second one. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Awards and honors

• Is there info on her getting a Distinguished Flying Cross? That's a huge accomplishment.

  Her citation reads:

  The President of the United States of America, authorized by Act of Congress, July 2, 1926, takes pleasure in presenting the Distinguished Flying Cross to Colonel Eileen Marie Collins, United States Air Force, for extraordinary achievement while participating in aerial flight as Commander of the Space Shuttle Columbia, from 23 July 1999 to 27 July 1999. During this period, Colonel Collins' outstanding leadership, exceptional technical knowledge, thorough preparation, operational expertise, superior flying skills, and flawless airmanship led directly to the total success of the 1.5 billion dollar Chandra X-Ray Observatory deployment. The professional competence, aerial skill, and devotion to duty displayed by Colonel Collins reflect great credit upon herself and the United States Air Force.

  Oh, I figured it was for Grenada. Nevermind, I don't think the citation needs to be included. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 02:04, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

  Y Added that she received it for STS-93, but not the citation. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

References

• I think the section that is "Notes" should be "References" and the section that is "References" should be "Bibliography"

  Y I always use "Notes" and "References"; per WP:BIBLIOGRAPHY, "Bibliography" is reserved for works by the subject. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• A few of the references have a URL listed as the publisher (i.e. "www.nasa.gov" instead of "NASA")

  Y Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• Spot check on a few refs have dates on the webpage that are not listed in the ref.

  Bot can't see them. I only give title-publisher-url-accessdate. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

  Maybe I'm missing/forgetting some MOS, but shouldn't info like date and author be provided if it's provided in the original source?

  WP:CITEWEB requires the date and the author even if they are not in the source. So compliance means we cannot use a web page where they are not given. (Whereas a newspaper citation would only require the byline if there was one.) Fortunately, GA only requires compliance with Wikipedia:Inline citation instead. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

• The Arents Award ref ends up at a Syracuse home page of sorts

  Works okay for me. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

  The links itself works, but I'm not seeing any mention of Collins or the Arents Award on the page that it links to. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 01:51, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

  Y Deleted. The award is covered by the previous reference. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Miscellaneous

That's all I have for now! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 19:29, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

All points addressed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

That's all for me. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: Passing the nomination; nice work! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 20:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC)