Talk:Duke of Edinburgh

Dates of additional titles

In the list of Dukes, the dates that follow the additional titles are a mix of

1. the date the title was created,

2. the date the holder inherited the title,

3. when the holder was known by that title.

From similar lists elsewhere it looks like the first option is the one most generally used on Wikipedia so I propose to change all dates to match that. --Mgp28 (talk) 16:54, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I've made the dates consistent as those when each title was created but I'm not sure that's the most helpful.

It might be more useful to list the subsidiary titles that were part of the same creation at the top of each section as they will be common to all members of the table, then for individuals just list the highest titles they hold from different creations with both the date they gained the title and when it was created.

I've put an example of how this might work here [1]. It might also be useful to get a wider discussion to see if these tables should be made more consistent across Wikipedia. --Mgp28 (talk) 18:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

User:Tamfang, I've just seen in the Talk archive that you made a similar comment last year. Do you think the current version[2] is a suitable solution? --Mgp28 (talk) 18:44, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

fine with me —Tamfang (talk) 19:16, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Edward

Now that the title has merged in the Crown, if Prince Edward is granted the title (in accordance with speculation) will that be the fourth creation of the tile? 104.153.40.58 (talk) 22:52, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think so. Dhtwiki (talk) 01:26, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

If the title merged with the crown.Can be the sovereign become the Duke of Edinburgh?

There are sources saying that the dukedom of Edinburgh lies with the king,can we just cross out the extinction date as it was not extinct. Him9 (talk) 09:44, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

It has ceased to exist, it is no longer a dukedom, it is no more. That's what merger in the Crown means. DeCausa (talk) 16:36, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

That's merging with the ground. A more relevant link might be Hereditary_peer#Merging_in_the_Crown. Dhtwiki (talk) 06:34, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

The holder of a peerage is a vassal of the monarch, and the monarch cannot be his own vassal. That is the theory in Britain and France, though it seems not in some other states such as Spain and the Netherlands, whose monarchs have numerous lesser titles older than the kingdom. —Tamfang (talk) 03:30, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Inheritability

There's nothing in the cited source (royal.uk) that says that the title will not be inherited by Edward's heirs, so I have deleted that line from the article. Rojomoke (talk) 10:39, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I've added a BBC source for it. But it's unclear to me how this is legally possible, as the Life Peerages Act 1958 does not allow for non-hereditary Dukedoms, only Baronies.2A01:599:218:9AD7:247F:50ED:BBEF:B7FB (talk) 12:10, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

@2A01:599:218:9AD7:247F:50ED:BBEF:B7FB Presumably they can do it by adding a special remainder to that effect in the letters patent. It's unprecedented, but presumably not impossible HIGHFIELDS (TALK) 12:58, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

royal.uk doesn't directly say it is a life peerage, and under current rules it can not be done without a act of parliament and still gazette is not issued. Chamika1990 (talk) 12:16, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure all our questions will be answered in time. But regarding the legality, if the letters patent omit the phrase "and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten" then it simply won't be inherited? The creation of the Earl of Burma shows that the King can deviate from the usual formula without an Act of Parliament. --Mgp28 (talk) 13:00, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with your view on this. The Sovereign is open to all sorts of variations in the way a peerage title may be inherited, either by the usual way you mention, or indeed opening the succession to females (such was the case with the Earldom of Mountbatten of Burma). Even more variations can be seen in the creation of the Dukedom of Marlborough, which makes this title unlikely to become extinct. Either way, it does not require an Act of Parliament to vary the way a peerage may be inherited or not.Ds1994 (talk) 13:12, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Life Peerages existed even before 1958, although they were usually granted to females, and as others have said, the key is what the remainder of the peerage is. The last time that this was done was in the mid-19th century to create Baron Wensleydale, although a dispute over his right to sit in the Lords meant that an entirely notional hereditary peerage was then conferred (he had no sons to inherit in any case). I see no reason that a creation for his lifetime only would be irregular, as the effect of the 1958 Act was NOT to allow for Life Peerages, but to allow life peers created under that Act to sit in the Lords (overturning the Wensleydale precedent). As such, it appears that this will be a life peerage that does NOT carry a right to sit in the Lords. 213.105.55.131 (talk) 13:34, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Also agreed. I think I can also recall some instances in the later medieval period that peerages were awarded for life only. I can't recall the exact titles involved but the principle remains the same. So it seems that creating life peerages of any of the five ranks of nobility are entirely possible. On a more practical level it does solve the problem of any proliferation of royal dukedoms in the second generation, and subsequent non royal dukedoms in subsequent generations. I've no doubt this option will be used again in the future.Ds1994 (talk) 13:42, 10 March 2023 (UTC)