Talk:Battle of Bakhmut/Archive 1

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This article has issues both with impartiality and syntax. The article is very one sided repeatedly referring to the Russians as “the enemy” and some of the sentences are also incoherent and make little sense with the English being quite garbled2A00:23C8:928:5301:65CE:391F:38F6:5AF2 (talk) 13:01, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

It is better now Xurum Shatou (talk) 15:15, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Name Change?

Looking over the current article, I think there might need to be a name change. This is mainly due to the fact that there is no fighting going on in the city/town of bakhmut at all (only air strikes), and the main fighting is happening on the Lysychansk-Bakhmut highway closer to the town of Bilohorivka. 108.7.233.72 (talk) 19:15, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Such an article focused on the road would be too irrelevant I think. Better to wait and see if fighting starts in Bakhmut. Super Ψ Dro 16:27, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Merge Battle of Soledar

I think the battle of Soledar and the Battle of Bakhmut are part of the same direction, the same push, and the same army. We should merge them. 77.137.73.118 (talk) 16:40, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Add Alexei Nagin for Russia Commanders

Just recently, there's been information that a known commander of the Wagner Group, Alexei Nagin, was killed in the clashes close to Bakhmut. Should he be added in the commanders section fighting on the side of Russia? DeepCriticalThinking (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Use of unnamed sources

If no better source is found, than some unnamed official according to cnn is found, I strongly suggest that the part about 450 drones from Iran is completely dropped. 92.220.101.213 (talk) 13:38, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 December 2022

Since the start of the war ukranian cassiulties in war as On the 1st of december european commosioner Urszula Vond ser Leywn stated that 100000 ukranian „officers” Soldiers have died so far. Us army general Mark Milly stated that around 200 000 cassulitues are in both sides Janpiorkowski07 (talk) 19:30, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I just want to improve the Wikipedia beacuse i SPEED a lot od time on it i want to bring objectivity on wiki Janpiorkowski07 (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Colonestarrice (talk) 19:47, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Add "Georgian Legion" to units involved

They are fighting in Bakhmut

https://1tv.ge/lang/en/news/georgian-volunteer-fighter-died-in-ukraine/ https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/media-five-georgian-soldiers-fighting-for-ukraine-killed-in-donetsk-oblast RandomPotato123 (talk) 11:51, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

They were members of the 57th Motorized Brigade (Ukraine) as per this article (https://news.yahoo.com/five-georgian-military-volunteers-killed-093620261.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAAXNQhdDyHRwqx0RFAimi6ZaCpTwcn7UnBWttH6JmSjwkY2VcjUmXlZ6VnnLuYmxbZ4GDHYFr3mIWgpenM56v26TxEeSVw_b6tga_Im1OytQFI0DAA1E_BipjgemDTOgM-t4M4ipgu18cLxgZfWQGNfof4KPA1ndW3XddlHu-a6-). Not the GNL. LordLoko (talk) 17:32, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Protected Edit-Request

Hey it says the main battle started after Ukraine withdrew from Popasna, but the main battle started months later in August while Popasna fell in May, so can someone please delete this part of the sentence or change it to some form of “The main battle for the city started after Russia pushed in from the Popasna area.” 96.242.227.52 (talk) 22:06, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. I did something similar.LordLoko (talk) 14:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Flag of the Wagner Group (variant).svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:52, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Removed list of units per infobox purpose

Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE anything more than basic information is immaterial in the infobox and detracts from the infobox's purpose, which is to summarize the article in as few words as possible. We do not write the article in the infobox; it is the other way around. Perhaps given a consensus here we could relink it.

I did not remove the entire order of battle; I only removed the specific smaller units and battalions as "Ukrainian air assault forces" will suffice instead of listing all of its subordinate units.

Thus, there is no need to list the specific brigades, legions, and battalions involved in the battle. There are numerous other reasons besides the Infobox Purpose:

1. Units that have been named by media sources as participating in the battle may not be contributing their full combat strength capability to the battle. For example, when a source states that "elements" of the XYZ Mechanized Brigade are currently operating in Bakhmut, this could mean as much as multiple battalions of 2,500 men, but as little as a small reconnaissance platoon of 15.
2. There were no Russian or PMC Wagner units listed.
3. The infobox stretched all the way down to the "Winter escalation" section of the article.

PilotSheng (talk) 03:04, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

• I took the time to add a good chunk of those but it's whatever. Since the Russian side was much less detailed/lacked RS-backed sources, I actually agree with the decision to keep them similar at the the end of the day. Balance. RopeTricks (talk) 06:01, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

  @RopeTricks Yeah I noticed that, that's why I made an effort to explain it here in the talk page so you and other editors who worked on it would understand. No worries PilotSheng (talk) 18:14, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

The title of a picture illustrating the article should be verified

I was surprised by the title of the picture of a Tunguska fighting vehicle: "A 9K22 Tunguska of Ukraine's 30th Mechanized Brigade Anti-Air Battalion in the vacinity of Bakhmut, December 2022" First, there is a typing error "Vacinity". Then, look at the leaves of the trees hiding the vehicle. Clearly, in spite of the climatic change, this picture was not shot in December, somewhere in Easter Europa. Hamilcar Barca (talk) 10:46, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Nice catch. The source is from the 30th Mechanized Brigade's facebook page, it seems the pictures were posted on December 3. So I think it's better to remove it's from December and just leave ""A 9K22 Tunguska of Ukraine's 30th Mechanized Brigade Anti-Air Battalion in the vacinity of Bakhmut" LordLoko (talk) 14:46, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

16 Jan - Soledar etc

Hello - I'm editing on other pages to do with Ukraine. Now that Soledar is confirmed as occupied, I wonder whether the last entry here on Jan 7 needs to clarify 'Soledar-Bakhmut' and why it was being mentioned by Wagner command. It's 10km north. (Sil now also taken according to telegram sources.) Perhaps a link to Battle of Soledar should be embedded in the text? Cheers. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:39, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Casualties does not equal killed in battle.

As in so many other articles about the Ukrainian-Russian war, sources referring to "casualties" are cited as if they were referring to the number killed in battle, causing massive inaccuracies. "Casualties" refers not only to those killed, but those wounded seriously enough in battle as to have to be removed from the battle forces. In modern combat, casualties are several times higher (typically four times) than actual deaths. In some instances, even sources confuse the meaning of "casualty," so care should even be taken to verify sources, especially when they are civilian bureaucrats. 205.175.220.10 (talk) 15:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Jan 20th BND report

Earlier today Germany's inteligence agency (BND) showed concerns about the high Ukrainian casualty ratio at this battle.

·English source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jan/20/russia-ukraine-war-live-zelenskiy-expecting-strong-decisions-as-kyivs-allies-meet-in-germany?page=with:block-63ca931e8f08475f7d94bf4b#block-63ca931e8f08475f7d94bf4b

·Original in German (live feed-13:46): https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/russland-ukraine-news-am-freitag-britische-geheimdienste-bis-zu-50-000-wagner-soeldner-in-der-ukraine-a-be2408e1-6e72-4325-bc06-29d76e0c4d5e Zaka (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 January 2023

Citation needed for this line "One Ukrainian artillerymen alleged that "80 percent" of the remaining civilian population, surviving in basements and supplied by mobile grocery trucks that periodically enter the city, was pro-Russian" under the "Winter escalation and continued encirclement efforts (November 2022–present)" section. Huntbiss5 (talk) 20:48, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 03:07, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

This needs a source. Change "One Ukrainian artillerymen alleged that "80 percent" of the remaining civilian population, surviving in basements and supplied by mobile grocery trucks that periodically enter the city, was pro-Russian" to "".

If there is no source to support this claim it should be removed. Huntbiss5 (talk) 14:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/10/russia-ukraine-war-bakhmut-meat-grinder-deadlock is the source for that sentence, which is already cited in the article. The source mentions both the grocery trucks and the claim of 80%. RopeTricks (talk) 05:55, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Merge request

I request a merge between the article "Battle of Paraskoviivka" to this article Battle of Bakhmut. NYMan6 (talk) 17:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. The battle of Bakhmut encompasses much of the battle for Paraskoviivka. Jebiguess (talk) 04:26, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, considering we could make a part of the article about these battles especially about Ivanivske right now. NYMan6 (talk) 16:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Imminent Defeat of Ukraine

Ukraine is about defeated here, they are about 70% encircled and are being advised to withdraw by Washington and EU, please update accordingly.

https://unherd.com/thepost/ukraine-is-on-the-verge-of-losing-bakhmut/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:1730:F170:34A2:FB2D:2BDF:9882 (talk) 19:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Nice opinion piece PilotSheng (talk) 20:29, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Casualties

See recent edits over the military casualties section. It seems like editors are trying to remove claims of Ukrainian casualties while not also achieving parity for claims of Russian casualties. Seems like POV to me -- trying to minimize reports of Ukrainian casualties while maximizing the claims of Russian casualties is something that I have observed on Wikipedia before -- pinging editors: @EkoGraf @My very best wishes @Volunteer Marek @Applodion PilotSheng (talk) 20:39, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

No, I explained the reason in edit summary [1]. The numbers should define the number of people killed, wounded or the both. If we do not know what a number defines (we do not according to the cited sources), then such "info" does not belong to the page. My very best wishes (talk) 20:48, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

With regard to other content you restored, who is Maria Senovilla (Atalayar)? Do you have any other sources giving similarl numbers? My very best wishes (talk) 21:18, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

For now I have reinstated the version from earlier on 1 February ; the reason why all of those claims are to give a picture of the battle. There is a reason why we don't throw every claim into the infobox; rather, we put it in the "military casualties" section for readers to decide themselves. We have had discussions like this before PilotSheng (talk) 20:41, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I've explained my edits in the edit summaries. Doing things like including the casualties suffered by one specific Ukrainian company sized force while failing to include total casualties for Wagner fails WP:BALANCE and WP:UNDUE. The rest should be self-explanatory. Volunteer Marek 22:23, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

And judging by the edit summary, this edit appears to be a violation of WP:POINT (as well as WP:EDITWAR) Volunteer Marek 22:26, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Also this edit summary is completely wrong. The source explicitly says "between late November and early December near Bakhmut". So if anything the number are an understatement considering that the Russians have been trying to take Bakhmut since July. Volunteer Marek 22:29, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Is Arestovych a trustworthy source?

On his daily podcast with Mark Feygin, Oleksii Arestovych stated that Russia had suffered over 60,000 casualties in Bakhmut and Soledar over the past few months. Linked here [2] I know there was a prior figure from Arestovych (something like 10,000) and that was removed from the infobox. PilotSheng (talk) 20:55, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

@PilotSheng It’s honestly pretty up in the air at this point, considering the Russians do not release their casualty figures. Still, although I wouldn’t put him in the infobox, I do think you should at least put in a note, just to keep a record. Tomissonneil (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Why would a participant in the conflict be a reliable source, which was the original question? 182.239.145.107 (talk) 06:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

When you see "Extended protection" on Wikipedia you know you're in for some next-level propaganda. 100.4.191.230 (talk) 05:08, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request

In the casualties section of the infobox, the figure of 17,000 killed is a Ukrainian claim of RUSSIAN losses, not of their own. It’s been in the wrong section for a little while now, and it does need to be moved. It’s also not formatted 100% correctly, but that’s a relatively minor issue. Tomissonneil (talk) 03:23, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Yup. Volunteer Marek 03:36, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 February 2023

analysis section, personnel and tactics,

Change "Russian tactics to Soviet-style human wave attacks," to "Russian tactics to human wave attacks,"

Reason: Common misconception that Soviet used Human wave tactics. The source that this citation comes from comes pertains a quote from Ukrainian personnel, which posses a motivation, and implicit bias to use this misnomer. AmaduesALPHADELTA (talk) 01:44, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

@AmaduesALPHADELTA:  Not done for now: I think you should take a look at this discussion about human wave attacks. We should wait until consensus is found there before making associated changes to this article. small jars tc 15:05, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Siege of Bakhmut

I advise a name change as the city is nearly to already encircled. 2601:183:4081:FEA0:3878:7959:4029:3A40 (talk) 23:07, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

It’s been nearly besieged for eight full months. Let’s just wait until it’s not just nearly.  —Michael Z. 04:30, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Some General Updates

As we can see from pro-Russian as well as pro- Ukrainian sources, some towns have fallen since fall of Klishchivka ex- Blahodatne as well as heavy fighting in Paraskovivka, Krasna Hora, Yahidne, Ivanivske. Kapitan Siddharth (talk) 14:49, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Updates required

There's been a lot of updates with the satellite villages around northern bakhmut and possible operation encirclement happening this article is outdated. Coobadge1 (talk) 22:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

January 2023–present

"continue fighting against" -> continue defending --J. Sketter (talk) 19:04, 7 March 2023 (UTC)