Talk:British nationality law

British subject

The article currently says "British subjects (as defined in the 1981 Act) are British subjects who were not CUKCs or citizens of any other Commonwealth country. Most derived their status as British subjects from British India or the Republic of Ireland as they existed before 1949." However, the Republic of Ireland did not exist before 1949. I suggets that the article should be amended to read 'or Éire as they existed before 1949." Thoughts? Alekksandr (talk) 17:20, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Alekksandr: I suppose the question is touchy: before 1949, the present Republic of Ireland called itself Éire but was regarded as a Dominion by British law. Maybe the phrase could be …from British India or from what is now the Republic of Ireland as they existed before 1949…, without too precise a designation in order to, let's say, spare the hare and the hound. — Tonymec (talk) 07:05, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, see Names of the Irish State, but the then Irish Free State adopted its 1937 Constitution in which it declared its name to be "Éire" (in Irish) and "Ireland" (in English). However the UK declined to accept the name "Ireland" (let alone the Irish assertion in that constitution to sovereignty over the whole island), choosing instead to use the word "Eire" (note missing diacritic). What was significant about 1948 was that, by declaring itself a republic, the state left the Commonwealth and thus UK's Ireland Act 1949 was needed to deal with the consequences in British law. (Incidentally, the Irish Republic of Ireland Act 1948 only "described" the state in that style for purposes of disambiguation when needed, the law did not change the name of the state.)

So, Alekksandr, it would be incorrect to write [[Republic of Ireland|Éire]] as you suggest. What we have now is probably the least worst option. One to file under "too difficult", I think! --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 10:49, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

EU and NI-born

A braintwister for someone who feels up to it:  O'Carroll, Lisa (14 May 2020). "Northern Ireland-born British and Irish win EU citizenship rights". The Guardian. Retrieved 14 May 2020. Errantius (talk) 14:45, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

More at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52660737 with time-line of the background case. UK nationality law doesn't preclude dual-citizenship (unlike quite a few other countries). Is there really a brain twister here? I can't see how it matters? Her husband hasn't gained UK nationality, just right-to-reside. Their case is now being treated same as some random couple from (say) Italy, who have lived in the UK for years, that is the only change as far as I can see? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:34, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Reading about this a little more, yes, it does have 'unusual' features. As I read it (not being a lawyer!), the plaintiff has the right to bring her husband to the UK to live because she is Irish. She would not normally have that right if she were British. Despite (in UK law) always being British by birth and descent, she has also (in Irish law) always been Irish by birth and descent. Not that it matters but she has never asserted the former, always the latter and that, if she had been born ten miles to the west in RoI, the question would never arise.

Nevertheless in UK law, you haven't been able to just ignore your British citizenship, you have to formally (and expensively) renounce it. The British/Irish treaty associated with the Good Friday Agreement declared that people from Northern Ireland have the right to be "British, Irish, or both" as they wish. The problem for the Immigration Tribunal was that this treaty had not been transposed into UK law, which is why it had to find against her - because she is British. HMG has now done so, at least insofar as it affects immigration. (read it here, pp10-14). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 08:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

So under EU.11 there, any British citizen can reside in NI and be treated as a “relevant person of NI”? Reminds me of the ingenious solicitor in Chen v Home Secretary.... Kaihsu (talk) 12:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

No, I think they would have to satisfy the standard requirements for Irish nationality. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:07, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

And for the opposite side of the riddle, see Willie Hay, Baron Hay of Ballyore. Nobody said it would be easy. Well hardly anybody. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:17, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Cost

According to the Guardian, British nationality might cost up to € 1300 : https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/14/irish-born-dup-peer-willie-hay-criticises-rules-for-obtaining-british-passport This unsigned comment was written by unregistered user 88.136.215.10 on 14 April 2021 at 14:07.

It might also be cheaper and a lot dearer depending on the type of application and visa route taken, not really relevant to the article. MilborneOne (talk) 12:59, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

"British citizenship is a privilege, not a right"

The Home Office has stated that "British citizenship is a privilege, not a right".

I put this in the introduction; it was reverted with summary "Is this notable enough to put in the leading paragraphs?" (But the reverter has since thanked me for reinstating and this comment, no edit war in the offing.)

Yes it is. It is generally considered (without further thought) that nationality is a right in modern times; if one qualifies for a principal nationality, usually the place of birth, that is your nationality, as of right, for life. The Home Office statement stands this on its head. According to this official position, you can be born in Britain, have no other nationality, but this can be taken away. Without discussing the rights and wrongs of this, it is a colossal change to what is expected. So this government statement is worth pointing out at the beginning of the article. It could be shortened: "The Home Office position is that British citizenship is not a right". Pol098, 12:17, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Added: this is related to Britain not having a written constitution; perhaps the much-praised "unwritten constitution" at one time held citizenship to be a right, but Parliament can legislate as it likes. Compare the US Constitution (as amended in 1868 after the Civil War abolished slavery): "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside". That is a right, as distinct from a privilege. Pol098 15:18, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

I've added this statement to the articles on United Kingdom immigration law and Mark Harper (the minister who said it). Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 20:11, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

I support completely. This announcement is an extraordinary one and astounding in its constitutional implications, that a person may be made stateless by ministerial fiat. The lead summarises the major topics in the body, so this passes that test. I can't think of another item in the body more deserving of being thus featured. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:36, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

It feels a bit news-y to me, partly due to the use of primary sources to support it. If it does have "astounding constitutional implications", presumably there will be secondary sources reflecting that? Cordless Larry (talk) 20:24, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

The article doesn't make any comment about "astounding constitutional implications", that's just a comment in Talk. It says that the Home Office made that statement, which is still on government Web sites cited. "The government said this <source ref>" doesn't need a secondary source as far as I can see. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 20:41, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Fair point, but given all of the things that have been said about British nationality policy over the decades, why are we highlighting this particular quote in the lede? If secondary sources identified it as particularly important, then that would strengthen the case; otherwise, it looks like the interpretation of Wikipedia editors that it's important. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:47, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

In an article that is about British nationality, an official statement (sourced on current government Web sites) that citizenship is not a right - as it is in most countries - is highly relevant. This isn't "said about British nationality policy over the decades" (waffle, opinion), it's a statement by a government minister. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 22:20, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

It may well be highly relevant, but my point is that if it is, then secondary sources will establish that. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:32, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

On the decades point, the article shouldn't just be about current policy but the history of that policy. That's why highlighting this one quote in the lede seems a bit odd to me. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:33, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

We agree to disagree. Let's see what others say. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 23:17, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

These do you?

• Patel’s citizenship-stripping bill would accelerate UK race to the bottom
  Britain already breaks international norms. The Home Office bid to remove citizenship without notice is a landmark on the path to authoritarianism (Open Democracy)
• I have added my name to support an amendment tabled by David Davis MP to remove clause 9 in the ‘Nationalty and Borders Bill’ to stop British Nationals being stripped of their citizenship without notice. Naz Shah MP
• New bill quietly gives powers to remove British citizenship without notice The Guardian
• Government plot to strip people of British citizenship is chilling for LGBT+ people like me (Pink News)

and other references to David Davis and Ken Clarke on the Conservative side. Not difficult to find. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 00:43, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

A tweet isn't much use, but the other sources are better (there have been some concerns about the reliability of Pink News in the past, but it should be OK to cite an op-ed with appropriate attribution). What I was hoping for was academic books and journal articles rather than media opinion pieces, but part of the problem is that the more recent use of the quote is too recent for that yet. Let's put this to an RfC. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:04, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Request for comment (RfC; since closed)

Does the following sentence belong in the introduction of the article?

• The Home Office has stated that "British citizenship is a privilege, not a right".

Cordless Larry (talk) 10:14, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

• My own view is that the quote belongs in the article, but not in the introduction; the introduction should include a brief summary of the content of the British nationality law#Deprivation of British nationality section instead (and that section itself could be improved using sources such as this). Cordless Larry (talk) 10:32, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion so far. I raised the original question and don’t have set views. The leading paragraphs need a holistic summary over the decades – I’m not sure if the Home Office quote is a snapshot of the transient view of one administration or represents a prevalent and lasting principle of all branches of governance. – Kaihsu (talk) 13:23, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

• No, including a specific single quote relating to a quite current discussion is recentism and undue. That it is mostly attributed to primary sources or basic news pieces is further evidence of this. While the lead could use rewriting/expanding and would likely give more prominence to the current situation rather than historical cases, this prominence should not extend to a currently debated bill, nor discussions about that bill. This is not a comment on inclusion in the body, which is a different matter. CMD (talk) 10:15, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
• No The statement on its own is confusing. It might be clearer to say in the lead that British citizenship was created by the British Nationality Act 1948. We can explain in the article that since the UK has supremacy of parliament and no constitutional bill of rights, that there is no absolute protection of the rights established under the act. We could also mention that regardless the UK under international treaties cannot revoke citizenship if it leaves someone stateless, and currently the Home Office has no authority to do this. TFD (talk) 11:31, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

• The Bill of Rights 1689 seems quite constitutional. The fact that it can be amended or overturned is no big deal because that is the case for most constitutions. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:01, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

• The term constitution can mean one of two things: the entirety of the laws or just those that can only be changed through a special process other than a vote in parliament. Hence one can speak of the constitution of the UK and also say it has no written constitution. The constitutions of Canada, Australia and New Zealand distinguish between imperial laws that were received into their legal systems and those that were incorporated into their constitutions. The first can be changed by statute, while the second cannot. In R. v Montague 2010 for example, the Ontario Court of Appeal decided that the Bill of Rights 1689 had not been incorporated into the constitution of Canada.[1] TFD (talk) 19:29, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

• No - Best we leave that out. GoodDay (talk) 16:17, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
• No The distinction between a right and privilege seems to be mainly rhetorical as the entire point of these laws to separate the sheep and goats and so they are all privileges of the specified classes. The lead generally needs extensive work to detail and explain this better as it says that there are six classes of privilege but doesn't list what these are. For example, the words "Home Office" are used without explanation or link as if the reader is expected to know what this is. Note that the Ministry of Justice is now, according to our article, responsible for human rights law and so the issue of "rights" is perhaps a different department. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:30, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Indeed see Dimitry Kochenov (2019) Citizenship ISBN 9780262537797 Kaihsu (talk) 06:32, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• No. No point in doing this. Super Ψ Dro 18:25, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Is there a consensus? – Kaihsu (talk) 20:31, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

References

I’ll close the RfC as there is a consensus. Kaihsu (talk) 06:21, 6 December 2021 (UTC)