Talk:Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows

Archives

• /Archive 1: original research complaints; unfounded theories
• /Archive 2: speculated release date; plot speculation; questions to be answered by the book
• /Archive 3: references; fake titles; more speculation; failed requested move
• /Archive 4: real title; questions about "hallows"; trimming of speculation
• /Archive 5: cited fan speculation; real release date; the meaning of "hallows",
• /Archive 6: long debate on inclusion of speculation on the meaning of "hallows"'
• /Archive 7: article length, some {{editprotected}} requests; continuation of above debate on "hallows"
• /Archive 8: continuation of above debate; minor article questions

Possible way to resolve Hallow issue

I'm kind of a latecomer into this dispute, but I have a possible suggestion. Why don't we create a page for the word Hallow, that contains all of the information as pertaining to the word, and leave this page somewhat as was changed recently, and just add a link to the Hallow page? That way if a person really wants to know all about the word Hallow, they can do so, but it doesn't lead into speculation from this article. Tuvas 15:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That's also what I thought, currently, making such long paragraphs about arthurian legends and hallows in it doesn't seem directly relevant. If the issue of what are hallows in general has developed in such a way, it can deserve it's own article, so that it wouldn't appear out of place in a HP article. That was one of the thing which bothered me in the recent article proposal, that it tried too much to be an essay about arthurian hallows, while there was not much to say yet in the context of HP 7. A seperate article is a possibility that we have to think about, besides, others had already talked about it...

It would allow people to really develop their knowledge on hallows in general literature without being seen as trying to build a point as to HP7...Folken de Fanel 19:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I see we are arguing in circles. The immediate difficulty is that the only reason people are now interested in what two months ago was a word no one had ever used, is because it has now been used in the title of this book. This is the one thing we definitely know about the book, and it ought to be explained as an integral part of this article. As someone suggested above, we ought to be mentioning foreign edition titles too, since they seem to have subtly different meanings. But in 5 months we will know exactly what the title means in the context of HP, and at that point an article specifically on possible meanings of 'hallows' will revert to being simply a long winded dictionary definition. Its importance exists solely in the context of this article. And we ought to have a passing mention of 'dethly', too.

Folken, your page says you are from France. Do you know what the french title is? Sandpiper

In that case, we should have to seriously research examples of hallows in literature, if we want to give the reader an idea about something he may not really know. I still wonder if some wouldn't argue with this being off-topic, but whatever.

There is currently no french title (I think on this one, the editor won't dare to propose anything until the book is released and the translator can find the definite answer). There are however many debates among fans as to how it must be translated, as the question of "what is a hallow" is raised from the beginning. There are the 3 main versions which are like "the mortal saints", " the deadly relics", "deadly shrines" and so on...

Looking at the interwiki links in the article, it seems there are several other countries which have already translated the title, yet we still have to know whether these are official titles, but I don't speak these languages so... ^_^

Folken de Fanel 22:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, HP7 contributed to make an almost unknown word quite popular. The word Hallow will remain in the popular culture, and many children who are not used to such archaic vocabulary will be introduced to it. So I think reducing the impact of "hallow" to HP only might not be the best way to handle it. I still think it has now earned its own entry, and having lines and lines about what hallows are in context unrelated to HP might appear more suitable in a true article...Given that we would have to write hundreds of lines, not related to HP, to thoroughly explain what is a hallow, i think it has met the requirements for its own separate article.

Because you have to realise, what is a hallow in general, and what is an hallow in HP7, are really 2 different issues. And mixing the 2 (ie trying to relate what we found about arthurian relics with what will be a hallow in HP) would generate some OR issues...

In fact, hallows in HP7, concerns only what we'll find in book 7. And we can't deny that even though really interesting, all that thing about relics or shrine still doesn't come from HP7...We still need to think about it, because explaining "hallow" is not easy. Folken de Fanel 23:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

One additional point is, no one will be able to edit the article until this dispute is resolved. I think this is the best compromise that can be created, which will include full information about the word Hallow, just not on the HP7 page. Right now the only thing we know about the HP7 use of the word hallow is that JKR won't reveal the meaning of the title because it would ruin the book. That much can be included. Anything else should either use a inter-wiki link. Wikipedia isn't the places for guesses, and while it's quite hard to do such a thing with an article like this, I would dare to say that this article is almost entirely factual. The bit about hallows is interesting, but I think it belongs to another article. Those of you hallow experts might consider creating such an article. When HP7 is released, then the article can be improved to add HP7 relevant information. Tuvas 02:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It would not be possible to write an article like this without making a general explanation of the title. Frankly, I have to agree with the person below, that once I have read a general explanation of what hallows actually means, then the general meaning of the title also becomes obvious. The difficulty is that the words used are unfamiliar to people, not that their actual meaning is contentious. It is a pretty obvious encyclopedic duty to explain the meaning of words being used in the subject of the article. Now, Rowling very likely will nuance the meaning, and she has been giving other explanatory hints by publicising the title with a hangman game, and by writing on a statue of hermes aka the magician tarot card. But all we need is something like we have above. I see no reason why we need a huge article on possible meanings, nor do I really see where the content for such an article would come from. The choice of material above is already limited by what is available. Folken has still not been able to find any substantiation for his general suggestion to expand it.

Folken was happy with the version above, but suggested what i take to be a small paragraph expansion about the word hallows being used to mean locations. We now have two references from respected sources on the topic of HP which substantiate the version of the article which he removed. (Lexicon and TLC both have articles on the subject, maybe mugglenet do too), plus others generally illustrating the use of hallows,and I have to say I consider them entirely reasonable. The references discussing the title meaning are in particular acceptable because they are not making contentious statements, rather are reviewing possible meanings in a general way which we could be doing ourselves. It is entirely reasonable for us to report the current view on these sites as to the specific meaning of the title, alongside our own general one, and this will become more necessary as publication date approaches. There will no doubt be much more written about the precise meaning elsewhere by that time.

The word hallow will remain in popular culture. It will have a simple, specific meaning (very probably=horcrux), which will hardly merit a mention except in the context of HP. This feels exactly like the debate over the HBP. Great to debate beforehand, but a dead simple two-sentence explanation at the end of the book. Sandpiper 09:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It is possible to write an article like this without making a general explanation of the title, because "hallows" existed before JKR and HP.

"Obvious" is a personal and biased judgment, which concerns only you. And Wikipedia isn't based on the "obvious", but on the "verifiable".

The difficulty is that the words used are unfamiliar to people, AND that their actual meaning is contentious. It's a fact that no one knows clearly what the word will actually mean, it's a fact that it has several slighly different meanings...

We don't write about "obvious" meanings of thing we don't know ANYTHING about. We can only talk about hallows in general, NOT in HP. Which explains why a seperate article is technically a better way to handle it.

I'm not talking about a "small expansion". I never did. I will be "happy" about the text when, and only when there will be content in EQUAL LENGHTH about each of the possible meanings that are reported in dictionaries, and when you'll have completely dropped any attempt to hijack Wikipedia in order to make it your personal blog where you want to explain to the world how you solved the "obvious" mystery of HP (which means it's highly probable the article will never be unblocked before next July).

Otherwise, it's blatant OR, POV, and attempt to build a point, which is forbidden on Wikipedia.

I have found substantiation for my general suggestion to expand it. That you don't want to see it is not WP's problem.

But it's only you who are not able to find any substantiation for your biased and "obvious" edits.

There are absolutely no respected sources on the topic of HP which substantiate the version of the article which I removed. Unless you have forgotten, original research is still banned from Wikipedia, and I merely reverted blatant original research, which will never, EVER appear again in the article.

No. It is absolutely not reasonable for us to report the current view on these sites as to the specific meaning of the title, as they are not reliable sources. We do not report unsubstanciated theories and fan divination. No one is able to read the future. No one has read HP7. So no speculation.

There is absolutely no need of OR in the article, as no one is interested about it and no one comes on Wikipedia to read book 7 before it is published. Folken de Fanel 20:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

No one is interested in book 7??? ??? ???? 20:35,Sandpiper 9 March 2007 (UTC)

No one is interested in theories about book 7. It's book 7 which interests millions of fans, not "what some think will happen in book 7". That's why we're writing about "book 7" and not "what some think will happen in book 7".

If people want to read these things, then they go on the Lexicon or any fansite, but they know Wikipedia isn't the place for that, so they don't look for that on Wikipedia. Folken de Fanel 23:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Call me crazy, but I'm doubting that you're poll includes a significant enough study group from which to make such assumptions. There is, from what I can tell, a decent number of people that are interested in learning what they can expect from the upcoming book, but are only interested in the more reliable pieces of information, and not the endless speculation one gets at the many fan sites. --Reverend Loki 23:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

That's basically what I'm saying. Folken de Fanel 23:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

No, what you are saying is that no information on any of the sites written by experts on the books is sufficiently reliable to be mentioned on wiki. Which is, of course, entirely wrong. Sandpiper 20:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

No, what I'm saying is that every reliable information has to be on Wikipedia, whereas mere speculations, totally unsubstanciated personal theories written by mere fans that have absolutely no expertise whatsoever on the subject (the most qualified persons to speak about book 7 are those who have read book 7. Have these persons read book 7 ? No.) and who are just making guesses and attempting to read the future, are not informations in any way and that they have no place on Wikipedia, as it was clearly stated in WP's rules and guidelines. Folken de Fanel 00:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

wiki is not a source of reliable information, rather it is a source of accepted information. There is no exact information about what is in book 7, you are correct, because it isn't published yet. What there is, is a lot of information about what, in general, ought to be in the book. This comes from the unfinished story so far, and Rowlings helpfull hints. We 'know' a lot about the book. It is not necessary that any of this will actually appear in the book, though I would be greatly surprised if it does not. We are only reporting what people expect, not what is there. This article does not rely in any way on the currently secret actual content of book 7. Sandpiper 21:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Locked from editing?

I obviously missed something, but why is the page locked? Why can't it be edited? I'd like to know the reason for the protection. ARSNL 02:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello, you'll notice above and at this archive that there is a dispute regarding the inclusion of certain information in the article; namely to what extent we define "deathly" and "hallows" and what people have interpreted those words to mean. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 02:47, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Professor Snape

Just a few questions about Professor Snape and Dumbledore. Does anyone else think that Professor Snape and Dumbledore had planned to kill him(Dumbledore)? We all know that Dumbledore had a crazy mind and, seemed determined to prove that love was stronger than evil. I think that it was planned to kill Dumbledore because he intended to protect Harry,just as Lily potter sacrificed her life for Harry and because of that Voldemort couldn't touch him. Well, Dumbledore did the same thing so is Voldemort unable to touch him now? Mamamia2 01:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Mamamia, I suppose your theory is very possible, but unfortunately talk pages on Wikipedia are not for discussing the subject of the article, but rather the content of the article; i.e. improvements to be made, etc. I suggest you take your theory to one of the many fan forums out there on the web. Best, Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 02:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

'Hallows' section debate

Err, who archived the ongoing debate. including the version of the page we are arguing about, this one:

Look, Sandpiper, if you're desperately willing to continue a debate which you've already lost and in which you were absolutely unable to find any convincing argument, that's you're right. However, you should then restore the actual "ongoing" debate in which are stated my most recent opinions, and not obsolete messages to which no one has replied for weeks. So, if you really want to continue it, I'm restoring the actual debate. Folken de Fanel 00:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

What do people think about the following text?

==The meaning of "Hallows"==

When asked "What does 'Deathly Hallows' mean?" J.K. Rowling responded, "Any clarification of the meaning of 'Hallows' would give away too much of the story - well, it would, wouldn't it? Being the title and all. So I'm afraid I'm not answering.". She also declined to say what her two other shortlisted titles had been, at least until after publication. The release of the title has resulted in considerable speculation amongst fans as to its possible meanings.

Hallow is a word usually used as a verb, meaning "to make holy or sacred, to sanctify or consecrate, to venerate". However, in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, the word hallows appears as a noun. In modern English, the word is used as a noun in "All Hallows' Day" or "All Saints' Day," which is the day after Halloween or "All Hallows' Eve". Hallows can refer to saints, the relics of saints, the relics of gods, or shrines in which the relics are kept., Since the essence of these saints or gods were often considered present at their shrines and in their relics, hallows came to refer to the saints or gods themselves, rather than just their relics or shrines. So, the hallow (relic) of a hallow (saint) is hidden in a hallow (shrine). Hallow is not to be confused with hollow, such as in Godric's Hollow.

The word ‘hallows' has been used in a number of legends to represent important and powerful objects. The Tuatha de Danaan in Ireland possessed six hallows, Manannan’s house, Goibniu’s shirt and tools, Lochlan’s helmet, Alba’s shears, a fishskin belt and Asal’s pig bones. These were guarded by four Guardians of the Hallows, Manannan, Lugh, Cumhal and Fionn. As the legend changed, the hallows became four objects; the spear of Lugh, Stone of Fal, Sword of Nuada and Dagda's Cauldron. These became the four suits in a pack of Tarot cards and took on the representation of the four magical elements, earth, air, fire and water. The coronation ceremony for monarchs still contains four ritual objects, now represented as the sceptre, sword, ampulla of oil and crown. Similar objects also appear in Arthurian legends where the Fisher King is the guardian of four hallows; the sword, spear, dish and holy grail. Earlier Arthurian legends also refer to a set of thirteen treasures of Britain.

Sandpiper 20:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Seems fine to me, though any other information found could be included as it turns up (any cited references to 'the Hallows' in LotR, for example?). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Michaelsanders (talk • contribs) 20:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

Well, sounds good. I guess this issue didn't deserve so much time and energy wasted, after all...Just a little comprehensive effort from Sandpiper, and almost a week of fighting is over. Congrats'.

Just a little thing, your proposition is exhaustive as to relics hallows, it would also be interesting to cover some shrine hallows (anyone has an idea ? Stonehenge, maybe ?) Folken de Fanel 22:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I put this together, but as I pointed out above, I am certainly not an expert on the subject of hallows in legend. My paragraph about legends with hallows may be acceptable, but is it correct? It seemed to me that Lulurascal contributed considerably to this section, and we havn't heard her opinion yet. There is also the issue that we do not address the meaning of 'deathly', which I have seen people confusing with 'deadly'. Sandpiper 07:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, as far as speculations and "hallows in HP" are concerned, i have nothing against this version. This a preliminary version of course and others can share their knowledge of literary hallows, but it seems appropriate for a de-blocking of the article...Folken de Fanel 15:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

There is another comment that could probably reasonably be made about the use of "hallows". Ostensibly it suggests a religious connection, but thus far the books have been solidly secular. To my mind (pure speculation) it suggestions that "hallows" will be given its own specific meaning in Rowling's wizarding world. --Legis (talk - contributions) 16:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I think all meanings of the word hallow suggest something 'special'. But I also think the paragraph of examples shows that this is not an exclusively christian thing. Sandpiper 19:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

{end of section restored from archive Sandpiper 21:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)}

Sandpiper, that was me, doing a bunch of archiving. I apologized in advance in my edit summary if I archived something that was still active, but I haven't been actively following the debate and it looked to me like you had moved on to another section. My apologies. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 21:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Thats quite ok, I can easily understand how the central point got rather lost. Sandpiper 21:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

{following restored by Folken de Fanel; debate after the proposed text was marked for integration in the article, untouched, despite previous remarks on lacking content}

It is uncomplete and still biased (hallows are not only objects). Folken de Fanel 23:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you're comment when it was posted below is: Well, sounds good. I guess this issue didn't deserve so much time and energy wasted, after all...Just a little comprehensive effort from Sandpiper, and almost a week of fighting is over. Congrats'. You even go so far as to say that the article should be unblocked on the assumption that this version will be included.

I took that to mean you were happy with it. If you are not going to take a debate on proposed content seriously, then there is a real chance that none of your suggestions will be taken seriously. I repeat my request for insertion of this version, on the basis that that it has already been accepted by the objector, Folken. Sandpiper 09:31, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

You should read carefully. I've already said it was uncomplete and did not cover all the meanings of Hallows, and I have mentionned the shrine-hallows. Do not try to notice only what you like in what I said. I said there were things missing, so it needs to be worked on still. Hallows are not only objects, and by only mentionning object hallows some may concider you're trying to build a point (not to mention that it could also be concidered off topic, since a whole chunk of this wouldn't even be remotely HP-related).

Besides, opinion is not a fact carved in stone, it can evolve with time and reflexion (and still, I insist that I had already expressed these doubts a week ago), and you have to accept that I can "change" my mind. I thought and still think it's always better than all this nonsense about "hallows in HP are arthurian relics", however now that I see the proposed paragraph I can't stop thinking that there are still some remnants of it between the lines, and that any external reader might think, from the insistence on arthurian relics, that a connection is intended between "HP7 hallows/arthurian hallows". In it's current state the proposed paragraph is not perfect. Either we are to be thorough and we describe everything that the word has represented in literature (inculing shrine hallows or hallows as saints themselves) - and it that case a dedicated hallow article might still be better since a lot of content might then seem off topic in a HP article-, or we are not to be thorough and we don't spend time on arthurian hallows. But what we have in the current proposition (a very long paragraph on object hallows and absolutely nothing on other forms of hallows) is still uncomplete and not acceptable for insertion in the article. Folken de Fanel 12:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I understand that sometimes it can be difficult to comprehend the meaning of words, but your last words on the subject were it seems appropriate for a de-blocking of the article, which can only be taken to mean that anyone would be free to insert the section. Sandpiper 18:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

My complete opinion is just above your last message. I've said all I have to say. Now, if you're not willing to listen to others' complains, that's your problem, but Wikipedia can't function like that. Folken de Fanel 14:38, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The title of the seventh book in other languages does not translate to 'Deathly Hallows', but usually to 'Deathly Saints'. Why isn't it taken for granted that 'Hallows'as Rowling means it refers to people? Curiousb0215 10:09 27 February 2007

Probably because no one has brought this up so far. Can you provide a list? I would observe, however, that when people have attempted to do similar things in the past - comparing translated names - somehow it all got deleted. I do see a difficulty, however. The english title relies upon the word being obscure, and indeed Rowling had a choice of three shortlisted titles. It must be extremely difficult to make an exact translation of a pun. It may be the case that the foreign titles are in fact translations of her alternatives (she refused to say what they are), so while they may be apt, and ought to be discussed, they may in fact be good titles for different reasons. Is the exact translation of the foreign title 'deathly', as distinct from 'deadly' (subtly different)? Sandpiper 22:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Actual debate restored, the not up-to-date debate was re-archived.Folken de Fanel 00:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

er, no Folken. By all means restore any section you feel is important, but do not delete the section I re-posted and replace it with another while still leaving my name on it. I think the piece you inserted entirely replaced the other, which I have posted yet again and hopefully disentangled the flow of the thing so it is now in sequence. Sandpiper 21:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Some suggestions

I would like to join this debate. If you are arguing over the meaning of Hallows then let me set you strait. Voldemort's army really worships him, right? Well Hallows means to make holy or to greatly respect someone. Voldemort's army practically made Voldemort holy and they greatly respect him. So feel free to comment on mypiece of information.GoldenIrish 01:47, 16 March 2007

GoldenIrish, Please sign your posts. Anyway, as your theory is also plausable, this could be considered Original Research and this is not the kind of thing that you should put on the Fan Forum. If you can present some hard evidance, then we might consider. Untill then, thanks. Quatreryukami 14:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Please note that "hard evidence" means evidence that has been discussed or reviewed in a reliable source, rather than by yourself, as otherwise it would be original research. Thanks! Voretus 14:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I thougt you guys could maybe use it for the article but I guess your right, I need some hard evidence. If you would like to post the cover of the seventh book in the article you can copy it from www.mugglenet.com Please note I am unaware if this is the real cover or if it was just made up. I'm still a little new to the wikipedia editing community.Thanks.GoldenIrish 21:21, 14 March 2007

I don't think the actual covers have been released yet, but we need to know whether it is real or not before it could be included. Most likely the publishers will release it first in their advertising. Scholastic have just announced the start of their sales campaign Sandpiper 00:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't wate till the 7th book comes out! I really think that Voldemort will kill Harry 1 because of the the prophecy and 2 because that's just what JK Rowling would do 69.76.166.34 21:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)harryfan101

Harryfan101, please back this information up with a reliable source other than "thats just what J.K. Rowling would do" This section debate is used to discuss what information should be in the article and what information should not.Thanks.70.240.148.161 21:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)GoldenIrish

Oh u want 2 mess wit the big dog now mister GoldenIrish. u want some back up info how about yo mom!!!!!!!!!!! wach u go'na do about it? hurt me, nooo cause your in a box (my comp.)with love dearly 69.76.166.34 21:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)harryfan101

Unresolved plots

"We will be learning more about Harry's parents and how Harry got so much money in Gringott's Bank "

didn't Sirius Black explain this in Book five before Harry went back to school? I believe he said he spent most of his teenage years at James' parent's house who were fairly wealthy, then he moved into an apartment when school ended. I cannot cite the page, only that it is in OOTP when the Black Family Tapestry is found and Sirius reveals his past with his family. There seems to be no mystery to me how the money got there as the Potters are dead, their money went to a young James, and then to Harry when Voldemort killed James and Lily. If I must, I can cite the page number and quote it, I just dont feel up to it unless I must. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.89.133.126 (talk) 01:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

thanks for pointing that out. I agree, there is not much mystery about his money. Rowling said she made him rich because she was poor and thought it would be nice for Harry (or something like that). I've taken out the whole point. Sandpiper 02:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Automatic archiving of this page.

A while ago I was asked to set up automatic archiving of this page. Now yet another person asked me to stop it (As if something was wrong with it). Can you please arrive at a consensus? Thanks, Миша13 19:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I remember reading a while ago that article talk pages should not be automatically archived, although user talk pages may be. I personally don't think automatic archives are good, either, as they're stifling to discussion. Voretus 19:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry guys, the talk page discussion was moving so quickly, that I thought it would be more beneficial. I didn't know this was something that consensus was really necessary on. If we're against it, that's fine with me. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 00:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The bot just archived some random comments 5 days after they were made. Now, as it happens they weren't important points, but I personally frequently leave it more than 5 days between looking at a page of no special interest to me. So 5 days later they come back, and their comment has just disappeared without trace??? Thats nice, then. Aside from that, some pages have comments on them which remain important months, even years, later. There seems to be a trend to rapidly archive ongoing debate, which is not helpfull. The only reason to archive pages is if they get too big. Sandpiper 00:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Book 7 editors???

I would like to know the usernames of anybody who plans on editing this article after the book is published thanks.70.240.148.161 21:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)GoldenIrish

(Golden, if you add four tilde ~ signs in a row to the end of your edit, it sticks your name in aoutomatically)Sandpiper

Ever? or immediately after? Sandpiper 00:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Anybody can edit a page whenever they like. Obviously, the page will face a lot of vandalism in July. We'll just have to deal with it and warn those users who make bad edits, and try to sort them out. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 00:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah ... but who wants the job of moderating, monitoring and deleting all the inevitable plot spoilers, which will be planted all over the Harry Potter articles like so much horse manure, and having the plot spoiled for them in the process. A corps of careful HP researchers are going to be needed to rapidly but carefully read and re-read Book 7, and probably reviewing the previous books for hidden clues, before orderly revisions are made. I've been wondering if most of the related HP articles should be totally locked down, perhaps from a few days before release to a few days after, and then after the moratorium expires, restrict editing to registered wiki-editors only (no anonymous, no newbies, no first-time sock-puppets) for the next few days after that. This will give responsible editors time to carefully read and absorb the book materials before all hell breaks loose from the armies of vandals and trolls, but also from the well-meaning HP fans and youngsters who do not know (or don't care about) the rules of the Wikipedia. I'm not sure how bad the X kills Y!!! vandalism spoilers were after Book 6 was released, but I would guess we will have it back ten times worse with Book 7. Whoever is "moderating" the articles in those first few hours or days won't really know what is verifiable, what is "true", and what is OR and POV, and won't be able to do an orderly update until there has been time to read the book(s) thoroughly (again). --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 10:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Sandpiper, I am talking immediatly after the book is released. T-Dot I completely agree with you on the editing restriction. You should put an editing lock to all anonymous newbie users. The article vandilism with book 6 was bad and book 7's vandilism will be hell. I started this section because I know we will have lots of vandilism problems so I was wondering who's going to be one of the editors that reads the book 10 times and then writes the article. It will help sort out the vandilists.70.240.148.161 21:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)GoldenIrish

You don't need to read the book 10 times to edit the article. While I agree with restricting use of editing this article shortly after the books comes out, any stipulations above that would be ridiculous. I agree with locking all HP articles down for awhile after the books are released.. then slowly making our way down the protection ladder. Disinclination 22:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely70.240.148.161 22:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)GoldenIrish

The HP pages will absolutely need protection. Believe it or not, "spoilers" have already been posted here and the release is months away. Definitely semiprotection for most if not all starting before the book is released (because spoilers will be leaked early like last time). But there's only so much that can be done, even seasoned WP editors will post inappropriate stuff, and even if all HP articles were completely protected, there will still be mayhem in the talk pages, just look at what broke out just from the announcements of title and release date. Sadly, the only way to avoid all the mess will probably be to stay away from wikipedia until you've read the book - hopefully some people will be able to finish it quickly and get on here to keep an eye on things. --Minderbinder 22:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I got books 5 and 6 at midnight, and finished them a little after breakfast the same day. I'll try to help out however I can. Arwen undomiel 23:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry Minderbender. I'll finish the book as soon as I can after it is released. I'm getting it at midnight. I'm with undomiel, I'll try to help.GoldenIrish 01:39, 16 March 2007

Us true wiki users will finish the book in a heartbeat. We can clean up the crap the vandals leave before spoilers are spread.GoldenIrish 01:43, 16 March 2007

deathly hallows cover

Does anyone know what the cover's going to look like? If someone does, they should add it in since you can edit it now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.134.49 (talk • contribs)

Not yet. When it is released, someone will post it, and then editors will review the source for reliability and authenticity. The black cover look that is being circulated and shown at places like Amazon.com is a temporary template. A new look is shown here and attributed to Borders, but it is uncertain where that came from. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 10:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I saw a red cover of the book on mugglenet.com [1] This cover is on the homepage with a countdown next to it. The deathly hallows cover under the books link is the black one. I think the black one is a piece of rubbish. Mugglenet.com is also the site that wrote the book what will happen in Harry Potter 7. I haven't read the book but I heard the predictions are pretty good.GoldenIrish 22:23, 15 March 2007

cool. thanks.

Tarot history

While I'm all for trying to find out what the hell Deathly Hallows means, the problem is with the particular sentence that the symbols of the Hallow guardian became the symbols of the tarot is NOT a definate history of tarot. One thing has to be clear: that the history of tarot is rather scewed, even amongst tarot readers. It has several "births" in a multitude of regions (including the tarocchi game in Italian). The way the sentence is worded now, seems to claim that tarot card symbols originated in England. I think this needs to be fixed, because right now, its biasing history (or a lack thereof). Disinclination 22:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

What do you suggest? I know this has been a bit touchy, but this is wiki: we are open to contributions, especially if you know something about it. Sandpiper 22:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

There is this, which appears to be by the mysterious Arthur Edward Waite hallows...in the tarot]. Mr waite seemed to associate them with the Arthurian grail hallows, and while King Arthur may be popular in england, I think I recall that the stories existed through Europe by that point? The point of the explanation here is not to be definitive about Tarot, but to note that at least one explanation of the tarot suits is from hallows. But, as you suggest, I have yet to find an explanation of their source which is definitive. Sandpiper

While I have no evidence of this my theorie on the meaning of hallows is the 1st paragraph from the top of the some suggestions.(above)GoldenIrish 22:28, 15 March 2007