Talk:Ivan Mazepa

The statement about Kyiv-Mohyla Academy

"He expanded the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, the primary educational institution of Ukraine at the time, to accommodate 2,000 students, founded schools and printing houses". Since during that time Ukraine was a part of the Russian Empire, this sentence should be mentioned as "primary educational institution of Ukraine and Russian Empire". The Moscow State University has been founded only in 1755 by M. Lomonosov who spent some time in Kyiv-Mohyla Academy himself (look into appropriate articles about Moscow University and Lomonosov). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.187.102.37 (talk) 23:13, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Place of death

Did Mazepa die at Bendery? My source (Lonely Planet guide to Romania says so) can someone more in the know comment on this Jackliddle 22:42, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, only the city carried the name of Bender at that time and was part of the Ottoman Empire. He ran there together with Carl XII who seeked to find an ally against the Russians. The great historian and politician Mykhailo Hrushevskiy says that in his book History of Ukraine-Rus. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 23:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Another Muscovy/Russia name debate

I don't think that the Cossacks or Rus'-Ukraine used the Greek word, "Rossiya" for the Tsar's state. The Muscovites didn't adopt that as a country name until 1713, which created diplomatic difficulties. Genyo 02:00, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Absurd and incorrect. Muscovy was just an old term for Moscow, after Ivan III or perhaps Ivan IV. Marcus2 21:59, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Muscovy was known throughout Europe, as the diplomatic history of 1713 indicates, when the request by Muscovy to be called "Rossiya" was greeted with incredulity in European capitals. Document another date with facts! Don't just decide you don't like the truth! Genyo 02:24, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Marcus,

What's anachronistic about calling Muscovy, "Muscovy" in 1709? Do you know what anachronism means? Genyo 02:53, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

By this time, as shown to you already, nation was referred to Great Rusia (or Rosia) and after Tsar Aleksey I, using the spelling "Rossiya". Marcus2 13:10, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

When was this "shown to me already?" Genyo 04:05, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

See Talk:Russian history, 1682-1796#Reign of Aleksey I Mikhailovich Romanov. Use of "Rusia" and "Rosia". Marcus2 11:00, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am moving this text from the article to talk for the record until anyone can find a grain of truth or at least of a known Urban myth. --Irpen 01:07, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Hrushevskiy refers to Russia for this period as simply Moscow. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 00:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Various period maps also show 'Russia' or 'Rvssia' in Latin script. As well as 'Great Tartaria' and 'there be dragons' How about Mercator's Atlas, 1619? Says Rvssia

https://sanderusmaps.com/our-catalogue/antique-maps/europe/eastern-europe/antique-map-of-russia-by-g-mercator-8454 Muchandr (talk) 23:45, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

The Mazeppa Ride

Mazeppa's fame lies on two foundations. One is the Battle of Poltava (1709); the other is the famous "Mazeppa ride". Curiously, the ride belongs to the domain of legend, not history. According to the legend, a young 20 year old Mazeppa was caught having an affair with the wife (or daughter) of a Polish nobleman. Wishing to rid himself of the offending young page, the nobleman had Mazeppa tied naked and backwards to a wild horse captured from the Ukrainian steppes. The intent was that Mazeppa would soon die on the inhospitable steppes. After three days of a wild ride, tied helpless, the horse finally stumbled, fell, and died. Mazeppa passed out, but at the last moment a band of cossacks happened by. They rescued him, took him to their camp, and nursed him. He rose in the ranks, ultimately becoming their leader (hetman) and ultimately "prince" of ukraine.

The story travelled to France, England, became a symbol of French romanticism, crossed the ocean as a stage play, and from the 1860s became the most performed stage play in the American west.

Please comment below. --Irpen 01:07, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Mazeppa ride is obviously due to Lord Byron's opus Mazeppa. He was likely given a task to glorify Mazepa in spite of the Russian interests, but was secretly sympathetic to the alternate candidate, Menshikov. The British intelligentsia generally was. For example, was Menshikov presented by Newton himself as a member of the Royal Society, for geography and for economics. Specifically for discovering St. Petersburg and for horrendous amount of embezzling associated with it. What are Mazepa's academic credentials? The persistent rumor that Mazepa was made a prince of the Holy Roman Empire does not verify. Menshikov, however, was made a Duke of Cosel, which I don't think was that serious a title (see my comment elsewhere on this page)

Firstly, there was no way a prince of the HRE could get into serious trouble for getting into some Polish noble's wife's or daughter's pants. Pretty studly of Mazepa, who was like pushing 70 at the time.

Secondly, an allegory of riding horseback naked and tied-up is a known one. It means getting hanged. The horse is usually a wooden one, and here we deal with a seemingly real one.

Thirdly, the horse is guided by a giant raven, tearing on its ears. This is an obvious reference to Norse mythology, specifically Huginn or Muninn, Odin's personal companions. This means that Mazeppa is going for a personal meeting with Odin, reserved for insidious traitors. In case you didn't know, Odin was not only first among Norse gods, but also personally responsible for death and damnation. The fastest mode of transportation available to Odin was actually hanging himself on the branch of the Yggdrasil, the World Tree. Took up to 9 days ETA anywhere in the Universe. Hence, Odin was said to be riding a wooden horse for a few days. I interpret this as a horse provided courtesy of Odin's establishment, i.e. the Scandinavian Heck (Frozen Over?) Muchandr (talk) 23:34, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

The whole article is false.

The article is based on rumors that were spread throughout the Empire by Russians to discredit Mazepa. The true history states a diffrent version. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 00:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

No, the Russian side of the story is actually more accurate than the Ukrainian narrative. Both sides lie a lot though and have political motives behind them. The article itself should be neutral to both schools and represent the true nature of Mazepa. I've written a research paper on this topic....too lazy to re-write the work into the wiki though...maybe some day...--Львівське (talk) 21:40, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I am specifically objecting to the rather dubious Ukrainian source mazepa.name for the claim that Mazepa was made a prince of the Holy Roman Empire. Unfortunately, all the paperwork for the actual title disappeared from the Austrian archives. This is hearsay. As presented by anonymous third party at a verbal seminar at University of Vienna?

Secondly, there is no prince without principality! A grant of estate as large as a small country! Menshikov, Mazepa's nemesis, was actually offered a title of HRE Duke of Cosel (Koźle) in exchange for recognition of his title Duke of Ingria, but it looks like some kind of in-joke, because Ingria roughly corresponds to Leningrad oblast+Finland in area. This was the Tsar's personal estate administered directly from St. Pete. Cosel means goat in Russian, and is rather derogatory. Also, a Polish woiwowode title was really equal to a Count Palatine in HRE table of ranks. Between a count and a prince. Thus, the recognition of princely/ducal/royal equivalency conditional on some additional small print. Some prince-electors, the highest strata of HRE nobility were modest Palatine Counts, but most were really just counts. The only Emperor Palatine is the one from Star Wars. The Polish woiwode appears to also be the closest equivalent to Ukrainian hetman and alt-Germanic margrave, of which there was only one extant in the Anglosphere. That of Phil, Prince Consort of Lizbekistan. You know, the one who begat Chuck, their current king. Muchandr (talk) 22:52, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:OR--Aristophile (talk) 18:00, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

And there were princes without principalities. Notably Turn&Taxis.--Aristophile (talk) 18:02, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, princes have a named estate within the Emperor's realm? Turns&Taxis was named after an existing private corporation. It can't be just Prince Mazepa.

I made a Google translation from Ukrainian.

On September 1, 1707, by order of the emperor, hetman Ivan Mazepa was granted the title of "Prince of the Holy Roman Empire", as evidenced by the signature of Prince Chemborn on the last page of the same letter from Mazepa and the entry in the registration book (volume XII). However, it was not possible to obtain the deed with Mazepa's princely title because it was not bought. The German diplomat, who was on duty in Russia and who, on the instructions of Peter I, came to Vienna to collect the letters with the title of count for the tsarist chancellor F. Golovkin and the titles of prince for O. Menshikov and I. Mazepa, ran out of money for the letter to the hetman, although for this matter, the hetman personally handed over three thousand ducats to Menshikov. Subsequently, this unredeemed deed disappeared.

To summarize. There is no deed. Estate name is unknown. There is a signature, by somebody who is not the Emperor, on the original petition letter. This looks like an acknowledgement of message receipt, not a grant. Muchandr (talk) 12:31, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:Verify Your own source does not verify. The title was never granted, because allegedly, the fee was not paid. Unfortunately, the deed disappeared subsequently. This is hearsay. Also, it was not "for services to the Holy League", but based on a hypothetical personal petition to the Emperor by Mazepa. Muchandr (talk) 05:28, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUS & WP:EDITORIALIZE & WP:IDONTLIKEIT.--Aristophile (talk) 11:52, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I merely cited a verbatim Google translation from the relevant paragraph in Ukrainian, because this here is a talk page in English. (section in Italics)

Let's suppose that none of my comments apply. This still leaves the claim of a) the deed being unclaimed due to an unpaid fee, b) the deed subsequently disappearing. This is actually stated directly by your original source.

Which makes it not too original, but rather anecdotal. Muchandr (talk) 12:11, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

The consensus version would be something like, "Mazepa was rumored to be granted a title of HRE prince, which he never consummated due to an unpaid fee"

Come to think of that, the story of passing the money to Menshikov is also highly suspect. Why would you pass the money for an important errand to your mortal enemy? Muchandr (talk) 12:33, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

https://web.archive.org/web/20130514085047/http://izbornyk.org.ua/coss4/mazk05.htm this has detailed info. So - cease and desist.--Aristophile (talk) 23:10, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

This is simply a more verbose version of the same. There is only the entry in "incoming folder", but no record of the actual title grant

According to the government notes on the last page of Mazepa's letter, on charging the emperor and under the signature of the book Schönborn, on September 1, 1707, only Mazepa was awarded the title of "Prince of the Holy Roman Empire", which is also indicated in the registration book on the awarding of noble titles (volume XII). On the same page of Mazepa's letter is the note "l Sept. 1707, Nulla expeditio." In our opinion, this postscript comes from a later time, as indicated by a different handwriting. This postscript is also proof that this letter was not sent to Mazepa, but today it is not in the Austrian State Archives, although it was seen there as early as 1887 by the German researcher M. Gritzner, its further fate is unknown. Muchandr (talk) 00:33, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

It is irrelevant whether it exists or not. We have a WP:SECONDARY source, and as such it is WP:RS preferred to any primary one.--Aristophile (talk) 00:55, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

You do realize that both of your sources are archived materials? Primary has a new version, secondary is defunct from 2013? This stretches the 'published' requirement of WP:RS, I reckon. Anyhow, I don't really have a problem with the content of your sources. You simply have to read them carefully.

A deed signed by the Emperor personally is a requirement for princely title. Both of your sources mention it being lost. How is it not relevant? Muchandr (talk) 01:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Another note from your own source detailing what the Austrian vibe was. The Austrians were obviously no real allies of the Swedes

Before the transition of Mazepa to the Swedish side, as we have seen, German, and above all, Austrian magazines, writing about the hetman, called him "His Excellency", "Prince", "Field Marshal" and. etc. Now, after the transition of the Hetman to the side of the Swedes, the tone of the Austrian press has completely changed. When writing about the military events of that time, there are no longer those enthusiastic or favorable notes or high titles addressed to Mazepa. He is mentioned only as "Der Mazeppa", not sparing at the same time such epithets as "traitor", "perjurer", "egoist", etc. About the transfer of Mazepa to the Swedes, Winnerses Diaryum (ch. 563) writes, for December 22-25, 1708, that the hetman wanted to go over to the side of the Swedish king with his entire army, but his intention was "discovered in time" and only about a thousand went over with him Cossacks. Muchandr (talk) 00:37, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

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Mazepa vs. Mazeppa

So, I think it's pretty clear from a cursory search that "Mazepa" is the most common spelling, but "Mazeppa" does exist in some sources, e.g. [1][2]. I've matched the way that Britannica presented the spelling. Hopefully this is an acceptable solution for the editor that is trying to change the whole article to Mazeppa. Mz7 (talk) 01:09, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

For what it's worth, when I was (re)writing Cultural legacy of Mazeppa, I came to this conclusion:

The spelling "Mazepa" refers to the historical person; the double-p "Mazeppa" is used for the artistic and literary works

Might it be worth pasting that into this article too?? --Carbon Caryatid (talk) 01:01, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

"Traitor"

[3] - yes, he was perceived/described in fiction (like the poem by Pushkin) as a traitor, but it does not mean he actually was. A lot of politicians changed sides in history. It does not mean all of them should be assigned to category "traitor". One could create a new category like "traitor in fiction" where this page would belong. My very best wishes (talk) 15:11, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Whether he was a traitor or not is a position taken by you, me or a particular author, but the article describes this in quite some detail: "The image of a disgraceful traitor persisted throughout Russian and Soviet history", "Until 1869, his name was even added to the list of traitors publicly cursed in Russian churches during the Feast of Orthodoxy service, along with Pugachev, Razin and False Dmitry I", "30 percent of the population of Ukraine views Mazepa as "a man who fought for the independence of Ukraine", while 28 percent view him "as a turncoat who joined the enemy's ranks"". You (we) can pin that on Pushkin, but his reputation as a traitor is a fact. Let me point to a couple of names from that category: Benedict Arnold was either an American traitor or a loyal British subject, depending on the position you take, but he has gone down in history, especially in the US, as an archetypical traitor. Pavlik Morozov, also on the list, was either a Bolshevik hero or someone who betrayed his family for ideological reasons (aka brainwashing), and I assume it's this fame as a snitch that landed him in the category. Ostalgia (talk) 15:58, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

What you refer to is unsourced on the page since 2008. I checked some other related refs. They are dead links and hardly reliable like Interfax, etc. But even if this is a correct info ("his name was even added to the list of traitors publicly cursed in Russian churches"), let's assume it is, this is all propaganda/mythology, just like Goldstein in Nineteen Eighty-Four or Trotsky in Stalinist propaganda. My very best wishes (talk) 16:20, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

In addition, your argument is self-defeating. Were Pugachev and Razin traitors? Should they be included to such category? My very best wishes (talk) 16:35, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

And no, Pavlik Morozov is not generally regarded in sources as a traitor of historical proportions. The kid was a victim of propaganda. Benedict Arnold? Yes, this is probably a justified inclusion, but neither Morozov nor Mazepa was Benedict Arnold. My very best wishes (talk) 16:42, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you could reply in one go, if possible (or edit your message as long as it hasn't been replied to). The list includes people who have been convicted of treason (whether you or I consider them to be traitors is inconsequential and OR) as well as people are perceived as traitors or easily and popularly identified as such (see Judas, for instance). Mazepa easily fits the bill. As for Morozov, two weeks ago at ANI a user accused me of being a "Pavlik Morozov" for "snitching" on him. Once again, what we personally think of Morozov is inconsequential (and OR!) as long as there's a perception of him as such. As long as we're here, we do not do research or "exonerate" people we presume to have been wronged by history. Ostalgia (talk) 16:57, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Ostalgia, please don't be edit warring over the category. Your argument is inconclusive: "Traitors in history" is not the same as "People referred to as traitors in propaganda". The category itself is problematic of course and if it were up to me it wouldn't exist, but that's beside the point. Please do not add that again. Drmies (talk) 17:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I have not added it - it has been in the page for months, and I took issue with removing it without consensus, or without discussion. I would appreciate it if you would check what actually happened before accusing me of edit warring to introduce content. Ostalgia (talk) 17:08, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

We're having discussion here. You are not making a cogent argument, and you continue to edit war. You just reverted again, with a phony edit summary. My very best wishes, this editor's work is the very definition of disruption: if they do this again, with or without a fake edit summary, report them to WP:AIV please, unless you want to write up an AN3 report. If you do that, you could consider pinging Canterbury Tail, 331dot, PhilKnight, and Daniel Case, who have all been administratively involved with their previous block for edit warring. Drmies (talk) 17:13, 23 May 2023 (UTC)