Talk:Athens

Replaced Pano

I replaced the panorama taken from Lykkabetus hill with one from the exact same angle but less choppy. Looks much better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giorgos P (talk • contribs) 01:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Please replace photos in toolbox

Please put a photo of Acropolis (larger than the previous,a photo of the area and the city's seal. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MetroStar (talk • contribs) 15:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

In the 'Geography' section in 'climate' could you please add the following collective photos ?Also add record high temperature of 46°C in Nea Philadelpheia in june and the record low of -5°C degrees in the center of athens in February

• photo 1) http://s9.postimg.org/ldt9seiwv/elliniko_ag_kosmas_beach.jpg, subject:Agios kosmas beach in Elliniko during the cold snap of february 17th,2008!
• photo 2) http://s22.postimg.org/q79waix8h/porto_rafti_2004.jpg , subject: Porto Rafti east of athens after the major cold snap of february 13th,2004!!!
• photo 3) http://s21.postimg.org/4ws6wzk7b/odos_tzavella_peiraias.jpg subject: Tzavella avenue just near the port of Peiraeus in the morning of february 18th,2008.

Thank you. P.S. Iam greek,information provided above are true and i like your article...just add a little more photos.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:2149:8714:d200:9dC1:1205:f975:4c31 (talk) 17:26, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Added a template

I created and added a Landmarks in Athens template. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NeroDrusus (talk • contribs) 16:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Location of Athens

Take a look at the red point showing the loc. of Athens in Greece, correct it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.82.191.132 (talk) 14:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Article of European Temp record re-entered

Why was this removed?Article re-entered,since its important to mention that WMO gives it officially to Athens.

Metro Area has to be wrong.

There is no way the metro area of Athens is about 3000 km2. I measured the loosest possible area containing Athens and it's 1500 km2. About a quarter of it is the Saronic Gulf. I think this is a very sneaky vandalization attempt. We should look into correcting that. Atlas821 (talk) 13:34, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Climate

Greetings, I would like to state that the climate description of Athens is somewhat too extensive and thus tiring for the average reader to keep his attention. There are too many details in a disorganized manner and on top of that, some arguments appear to be disputed or even wrong. I will present a list of what I think should be changed, feel free to state your opinions: 1. in the 1st paragraph description is being repetitive over the areas to the south and some details are imo unecessary 2. the claim of an average annual temperature of 19.8 is most likely wrong and the source (#20) misinterpreted, as it does not clarify which of the 2 areas (Athens basin or southern Crete) actually has such annual average, while 99% likely it refers to the latter since no station in Athens with at least 20 years of data comes anywhere close to this value 3. Athens is warm indeed, but it has potential rivals on whether it is the warmest city in continental Europe, both within Greece and not (e.g. Piraeus, its port city and Seville and Almeria, Spain) which should be also mentioned 4. in the 2nd paragraph, the rain shadow effect also applies for the mountains to its north (Parnitha, Dirfys), it probably wouldn't be difficult to find a source on this 5. it's again being repetitive regarding industrialization which was also mentioned in the 1st paragraph 6. I suggest internal links should be provided when mentioning north and south parts of the metro area, like Kifisia for the north and Piraeus or Elliniko for the south 7. regarding snow description, again too many unecessary details without a clear statement about the actual snowfall frequency and intensity 8. in the 3rd paragraph, I believe the description of the urban heat island (UHI) could be summerized in a somewhat smaller text as it's again being a little repetitive using 2 long sentences. 9. furthermore, the source claiming that some stations do not experience UHI is perhaps too old and contradicted by the source #20 which clearly states the strong effect of UHI in the greater Athens basin area 10. in the last small paragraph, it should be clarified that both Eleusina and Tatoi are parts of Athens metro area and not suburbs Syllynqt (talk) 07:51, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree on point 10, though the rest seems fine. For point 2 the Greek verbatim translation is straightforward including both Athens Basin and S.Crete. Point 3 would probably fall under WP:synth and one would need a verbatim source for a comparative statement like this (which reminds me that this should also be edited out from Almeria article). The rest also are RS which are complementary rather contradicting to each other. Weatherextremes (talk) 14:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

In point 2 what I get is they mention the Athens basin as one of the warmest areas along with southern Crete, by pointing out possibly the highest value among these two without clarifying where the value refers to, however we have data that suggest only southern Crete can reach these values for a time series longer than a few individual years while even for the warmest areas in Athens, a value of 19.8c would most likely be a record high annual temperature rather than an average one or alternatively it could be an average one but for only a short period of very recent years, thus not suitable for comparisons of the Athens area with other places backed by 30-year averages of climatic data. In point 3 I would say that the source is inadequate to justify the claim for Athens to be the undisputable warmest city in cont. Europe as by mean annual temperature there are several other contenders for this "title". I doubt there's a reliable source that makes such a direct comparison however I suggest to either mention all cities/places that come close to being the warmest or not mention it at all in order to be accurate. Last but not least, don't forget point 9, where the source looks to be more than 20 years old and thus not so accurate anymore, given also the fact that the more recent and reliable (from the national meteorological agency) source #20 says otherwise. The remaining points are indeed complementary that would only make the article more concise and easier to read. Syllynqt (talk) 16:00, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not work like this. As long as RSs support the edits (and all of the above are such) we are good to go. Weatherextremes (talk) 00:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

The source #20 clearly states the two extremes of avg temps observed in Greece, without attributing any of the values to a specific place. Neither is there a verbatim statement that says the Athens area in particular has a 19.8c average annual temp. While the available reliable data we have do not support such a claim either. So by all means claiming that Athens is the undisputed warmest area in Europe is not a reliable evidence-backed statement and should either be removed from the article, or at least mention the degree of uncertainty around it. 2A02:587:C270:EB82:90BE:98F8:6AB6:CD2D (talk) 07:26, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

There are also similar comments on the wiki page of Seville which are also backed by fairly weak sources, claiming the city to also be the warmest in Europe.. since as you say we cannot make comparisons among cities solely relying on data from official stations, then we rather remove all these statements completely, until an official institution or a peer reviewed study makes a claim on the matter. Syllynqt (talk) 09:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello, I came here from the page Thessaloniki as I saw this page mentioned. I agree with some things you have said. Definetly Athens shouldn't start with that paragraph, as the main feature of its climate is a Mediterranean climate with hot summers, not being the hottest city in Europe (which is true, I'll show a better source below) and as you say the annual mean is not 19.8 celsius either, as the 3 stations shown in the climate section show 19.2 , 18.6 and 17.8 annual averages.

The climate section needs a proper cleanup, since Athens is a big city with different geographical conditions, I would say that the annual average of Athens is between 18-19 celsius based on the climate boxes, that would be a good start. But I would also add they go from 16 celsius in the highest altitude areas of the municipality of Athens up to 19.8 celsius locally in the warmest area of the Athens Basin, just as the NOA source says. I wouldn't delete that, I would just specify it better. So I also agree with Weatherextremes point.

I also agree with Weatherextremes that there is no need to make comparisons with other cities, since you have mentioned Seville I have checked that source of the Seville page and it seems an official organisation from the European Union so that's a completely reliable source, just as the one on Athens being the hottest (it is the hottest as it holds the WMO European record) I would change both of the actual sources regarding that here in the Athens page for a Euronews source I have found (since it's more reliable) but definetly I wouldn't delete that claim, as Athens holds the actual hottest temperature record in Europe thus is the hottest city by extreme temperatures. But definetly that's not the main climate feature and the article shouldn't start like that. It needs a proper cleanup.

Here is the Euronews source: https://www.euronews.com/2022/06/24/europes-first-chief-heat-officer-explains-how-athens-is-preparing-for-severe-heatwaves WikiEditor1890 (talk) 17:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree in general, I just object to the fact that since there are multiple sources for multiple cities claiming to be "the warmest" they naturally contradict to each other. Athens is very warm, Seville is also very warm, but the statement "Athens is the warmest city in mainland Europe by annual avg temp" in my opinion is wrong, as 1st the existing sources just say "the warmest" without mentioning which criteria they use, which could very well be as you said the record high temp which is held by the Athens area. And secondly the source #20 is written in Greek and the sentence that includes the 19.8c is very vague and not clear if it is referring to the Athens area or to Southern Crete. Currently there are no official stations with more than a few years in operation in the Athens area that go near to this value, the warmest being Piraeus at 19.4c. On the contrary, in southern Crete there are several that exceed 20c. Regarding Seville, it could be considered the warmest by summer highs, or by winter averages. There are sources here and there for this. But regarding avg annual temp, there is none. Syllynqt (talk) 17:34, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

WikiEditor1890 makes some interesting comments which gave me an idea. Actually 16C is not the lowest avg. annual T in Metropolitan Athens but rather less than 11C in Parnitha and it can reach up to 20.4C in Nea Smyrni from official NOA stations. However the data are for a shorter time series but still marginally acceptable as per WMO guidelines on accepting shorter times series to monitor climate change. How about we go roughly with the climate section of the Athens metropolitan area (it took me forever to source it and write it up). A shorter concrete summary can replace the introduction of the section. The 19.8C should definitely not go as it is from the National Met Office of Greece but as WikiEditor1890 suggests it can be better explained. Comparative statements between city climates are nearly irrelevant and should be avoided in order to safeguard the article against WP:synth. Just my two cents Weatherextremes (talk) 19:51, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

There could be a whole separate section called Climate of Athens (metro area) as there is one for the Climate of Istanbul due to the many different climates existing within the area. The summary of the city though should be cleaned up of the unnecessary details and very old sources (specifically about the urban heat island effect which date back to 1985) and refer strictly to the center or at most to places within the urban area. The 19.8 source is a game of words though the thing we all know is that excluding a few official NOA stations with very short time series, no area in the Athens urban area comes close to that number. I guess we all agree to leave comparisons with mean annual temperatures aside. Athens (metro area) could be the warmest area in Europe by extreme high temperature as the record holder, but there's nothing else that could back this claim coming from an official source. On a side note, in the Athens metro area climate section, the sentence with the 20.6c avg of Glyfada is more misleading than helping things and since its an unofficial station with very few years in operation it simply has to go. Syllynqt (talk) 20:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

A whole new article is too much work which I can't do on my own now but I would happily contribute to one. Right now Nea Smyrni from the official NOA station and for its whole time series which is more than 10 years beats the 19.8C HNMS value. So we do have a good indication that the warmest areas of Athens can potentially reach even as close as 21.0C at least in the most recent times (Glyfada for example is about to turn to 20.7C annual avg. T but I agree that since its a private station we can focus on official NOA stations). These are things we can't ignore. For example accepting Parnitha and not Nea Smyrni is cherry picking and not consistent especially considering the fact that these are the only official stations for these locations within Athens backed up by NOA sources. They somehow need to be addressed in the article in order to give to the reader the whole picture Weatherextremes (talk) 04:54, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree for Nea smirni to be possibly included but for both Parnitha and Nea smirni and consequently for any other station, it has to be specified that the time series available is shorter and more recent than the typical 1981-2010 or 1991-2020 we find in most other articles, so that we help readers not to make wrong assumptions or comparisons with disimilar data. Syllynqt (talk) 07:35, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

And again we have to clarify which avg value is used, simple average or average with another formula, and use the one which is used in most other articles as I see the avg for near smirni with the noa formula is 20 and not 20.4 Syllynqt (talk) 07:54, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I am afraid anything other that simple avg Ts will render values uncomparable internationally, thus creating consistency problems in EN wiki. Weatherextremes (talk) 22:42, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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2004 Olympics

I read a lot of unhappiness with this article above. Too long, too hard to read. It does seem to me the article has slipped out of control. There are two solutions as I see it. First, offload. There is a lot of marginally relevant list-type material. I started in on that with a few items. Second, edit out the fluff. There are some loci of redundant material. On 2004 Olympics we refer to a main, which is long and detailed, but we keep a long and detailed intro. The same details are in the main and even more so. So, I tentatively just cut the section down to what seemed to me a good intro. I'm storing the rest here in case you disagree and want to work something of your own out.Botteville (talk) 13:12, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

"During the first three years of preparations, the International Olympic Committee had expressed concern over the speed of construction progress for some of the new Olympic venues. In 2000, the Organising Committee's president was replaced by Gianna Angelopoulos-Daskalaki, who was the president of the original Bidding Committee in 1997. From that point forward, preparations continued at a highly accelerated, almost frenzied pace.

The 2004 Games were judged a success, as both security and organization worked well, and only a few visitors reported minor problems mainly concerning accommodation issues. The 2004 Olympic Games were described as "unforgettable, dream games", by IOC President Jacques Rogge for their return to the birthplace of the Olympics, and for meeting the challenges of holding the Olympic Games. The only observable problem was a somewhat sparse attendance of some early events. Eventually, however, a total of more than 3.5 million tickets were sold, which was higher than any other Olympics with the exception of Sydney (more than 5 million tickets were sold there in 2000).

In 2008, it was reported that most of the Olympic venues had fallen into disrepair: according to those reports, 21 of the 22 facilities built for the games had either been left abandoned or are in a state of dereliction, with several squatter camps having sprung up around certain facilities, and a number of venues afflicted by vandalism, graffiti or strewn with rubbish. These claims were disputed and are likely to be inaccurate, as most of the facilities used for the Athens Olympics are either in use or in the process of being converted for post-Olympics use. The Greek Government has created a corporation, Olympic Properties SA, which is overseeing the post-Olympics management, development and conversion of these facilities, some of which will be sold off (or have already been sold off) to the private sector, while other facilities are still in use just as during the Olympics, or have been converted for commercial use or modified for other sports. Concerts and theatrical shows, such as those by the troupe Cirque du Soleil, have recently been held in the complex."

Duplicated history

I think most editors realize now that you can't cover modern Athens and ancient Athens in the same breath. I think History of Athens was broken out of here but the break was imperfect. Too much ancient history remains here, not to mention the population of ancient Athens. We need a sharper break which I propose to make. I start by cutting the ancient history out of the "Name" section. No, I'm not going to do this on a painful line-by-line basis. See my sandbox page3 for Athens and my sandbox Page 4 for History of Athens. There is another item. The 10-year Copenhagen Study obsoleted a lot of ideas about the polis. It isn't, for example, per se a city-state. You can find my rewrite of Polis in my sandbox page2. Don't expect too much of these rewrites at first. However you are welcome to comment on any of it. I listen to everything.Botteville (talk) 10:20, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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