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Date	Process	Result
February 15, 2019	Good article nominee	Not listed
October 1, 2019	Good article nominee	Listed

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Unified Canadian Junior Heavyweight Championship

I've searched and I've not been able to find where it says that the Unified Canadian Junior Heavyweight Championship is promoted by MainStream Wrestling. I've checked Wrestling-Titles.com and it doesn't show that MSW has promoted any title like that. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 02:59, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PCW Tag Team Championship

Last month Kenny won the PCW Tag Team Championship with Chris Stevens. "When the smoke cleared, Kenny reversed Knight for the three count as Omega & Stevens became the Undisputed PCW Tag Team Champions" Here is the link, if someone could make the correct edit and link that would be great.

http://www.premierchampionshipwrestling.com/ It is under the results for Boiling Point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.71.67.60 (talk) 00:42, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

New reliable source for addition

Came across a piece by media. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 03:21, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I added some basic stuff off the article. リボン・サルミネン (Ribbon Salminen) #GG (talk) 12:44, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Haruka (wrestler)

Could we mention this girl he delivered an enziguri to somewhere? Seems pretty legendary. Ranze (talk) 01:53, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is this the nine-year-old girl he wrestled in Japan? Tigerboy1966 14:40, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I added a bit on the match in the article. リボン・サルミネン (Ribbon Salminen)(ZOOM) 16:22, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

6 Star Match

Didn't Meltzer give his match against Okada at WK11 six stars, not five? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.167.67.212 (talk) 09:14, 10 January 2017 (UTC) Apologies, should've added that this pertains to the Championships & Accomplishments section, not the main body text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.167.67.212 (talk) 09:16, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It was listed correctly until an IP changed it today. Changed back. リボン・サルミネン (Ribbon Salminen)(ZOOM) 09:59, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Kenny Omega as IWGP Heavyweight Champion.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:22, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kenny Omega/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 10:53, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I will use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:18, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.

Immediate Failures

It is a long way from meeting any one of the six good article criteria - Y Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:21, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It contains copyright infringements - Checked all images - All are free Y Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:21, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
CopyVio check brings up a 54% chance of an infringement, however, I don't buy it. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:25, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid. These include{{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{clarify}}, or similar tags. (See also {{QF-tags}}). - No tags, other than a dead link. Y Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:21, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is not stable due to edit warring on the page. - Y Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:21, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Links

No disambig links Y Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:24, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
several referencing errors that need tagging/fixing/archiving N Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:24, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

Lede

Wikilink Professional wrestler Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You should consider if you need to abbreviate a company name in the lede, if you don't use the abbreviation in the lede. Such as with AEW.Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Omega is perhaps best known for his tenure - ^{[according to whom?]} Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A full list of his titles in New Japan is irrelevent. Only major titles in the lede. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Omega is also known for his time as part of the" - Bad word choice. Not GA level wordage. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This whole lead both goes into too much detail, and too little. It is not well written Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You've wikilinked the Young Bucks, you don't also need to say who they are. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The 6-man titles are hardly a career highlight. Shouldn't be in the lead. Read WP:WEIGHT. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
More information on a tonne of titles in the last paragraph. The lede should summarize, and give a bit of info on career progression. This lede says he's worked places, and won all this stuff. It's hardly a summary. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Career

Him having a sister should be in the personal life section. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:43, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I started to do a review of this, but it's just not going to pass. I'll summarize my issues with the prose below, but there's quite a lot:
WP:NPOV issues. Things like "impressive debut", " quickly became a rising star in PCW", can't be used, unless they are suitible ^{[according to whom?]} Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:46, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comments like "Smith has stated in several interviews that his time spent with DSW was poor and has been particularly critical of promoters DeMott and Jody Hamilton,[17] and trainer Bob Holly.[21]", are fine, but should mention who these interviews are with. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:46, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Each section after the WWE section starts with "on X date, Omega debuted for". I understand he worked a lot of places simultaneously, however, it has zero flow. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:46, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
every section just goes through a list of results (apart from NJPW, which has other issues, below)Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:47, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
NJPW has HUGE paragraphs. This needs serious cutting down. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:47, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notes & References

GA Review

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

Comments

I will start the review today, however, I may not finish the review, and will restart on Monday. Feel free to update the article to reflect any thing I have already highlighted, or discuss anything with me on this page, or my talk page. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:53, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Citizenship

"Canadian-born Japanese" - How is he Japanese? Isn't he Canadian? THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 21:49, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

He stated during a press conference that he is a Canadian-born Japanese citizen. KyleJoan (talk) 14:18, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@KyleJoan: where is the source? THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 16:44, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the article in question, which is cited under the personal life section. He also states it here. KyleJoan (talk) 17:03, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@KyleJoan: Ok. But before you go for another review, please replace all the unreliable sources according to WP:PW/MOS. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 17:26, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@KyleJoan: FYI it's WP:PW/RS, not WP:PW/MOS. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 22:30, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Already did that. All of the unproven sources are cited with discretion. If you would like to take a crack at it, feel free to do so. KyleJoan (talk) 03:29, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@KyleJoan

In that interview he says "I am playing a Canadian-born Japanese citizen" describing his role representing NJPW in North America. He clearly does not literally mean that he has Japanese citizenship. 173.45.209.196 (talk) 00:27, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that he states it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. he may consider himself one just because he's been acclimated into the culture and became a fluent Japanese speaker. The fact that he's being routinely stopped at the border and that there is documentation indicated that NJPW has been trying to ban him from entering Japan, seems to indicate that he's not a Japanese citizen. A Japanese citizen would have automatic rights to enter the country and can never be banned from the country. In addition, Omega never provided any proof, such as a citizenship certificate, natrualization record, passport, etc. He's also never indicated any details about the supposed naturalization, such as the date of it or location. Lastly, Japanese Nationality Law requires foreigners to officially renounce citizenship. Japanese law does not allow dual citizenship. It doesn't look like Omega has gone to the Canadian government to renounce his citizenship, which would be highly unlikely. Therefore, I don't think there is sufficient evidence to indicate that he is a Japanese citizen. Here is an article that seems to increase the doubt that he has naturalized. https://www.ringsidenews.com/2019/11/07/attempts-made-to-ban-kenny-omega-from-entry-into-japan/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.12.174 (talk) 16:09, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that he states it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Unless another source states otherwise, this is the info we have. The fact that he's being routinely stopped at the border and that there is documentation indicated that NJPW has been trying to ban him from entering Japan, seems to indicate that he's not a Japanese citizen. "Seems to indicate" is WP:SPECULATION. In addition, Omega never provided any proof, such as a citizenship certificate, natrualization record, passport, etc. We don't have documentation of his supposed Canadian citizenship either. It doesn't look like Omega has gone to the Canadian government to renounce his citizenship, which would be highly unlikely. WP:SPECULATION. Finally, per WP:PW/RS, Ringside News is unreliable. KyleJoan^talk 16:38, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty much all of the above. Speculation, and non RS. There should be a paper trail somewhere to know what is actually true, but none of the evidence above can really change what we already have. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:48, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

He is not listed in the official gazette. All naturalizations are listed there - 官報 240D:1A:3B6:9600:EF86:35A2:9123:128F (talk) 13:10, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

PASSED GA

Still some cleanup (copy-edit) related things, but I think it clearly meets the criteria. Closing.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kenny Omega/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 07:42, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I will use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}

Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.

Immediate Failures

It is a long way from meeting any one of the six good article criteria -
It contains copyright infringements -
It has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid. These include{{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{clarify}}, or similar tags. (See also {{QF-tags}}). -
It is not stable due to edit warring on the page. -

Links

Prose

Lede

He is an executive vice president of All Elite Wrestling, where he also serves as an in-ring talent. - this sentence rubs me wrong. Is he not the vice president (is there more than one?), and "in-ring talent" is WP:JARGON. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:22, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

AEW has four EVPS: Cody, the Jacksons, and Omega. I rephrased it but can understand if it still sounds jarring. Let me know what you think! KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

one-time IWGP Heavyweight Champion, one-time and inaugural IWGP United States Champion, and one-time IWGP Intercontinental Champion among other championships. (one-time is a bit pointless, can we just say "Omega has held the IWGP Heavyweight, United States... etc). Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:22, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

He was a member of the stable Bullet Club - "stable" is Jargon. also, it should be after "bullet club". Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:22, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added a link to what defines a stable. If this is improper, I'll change the word "stable" to "group". KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

later serving as its fourth leader - fourth isn't important. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:22, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Omega has also performed as part of both American and Japanese independent promotions - well, he's worked worldwide. I know he did quite a few shows in 4 Front Wrestling for example. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:22, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

list of top 500 male wrestlers - could we link the PWI 500? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:22, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Omega battled Kazuchika Okada - battled is a weird word. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:22, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:INFOBOXCITE is an issue. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:22, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I moved all but one of the citations to the body. The only I'm having an issue with is the ring name Scott Carpenter because he's only been documented to have used it once, so there's no paragraph dedicated to the portion of his career under the ring name. I'd love suggestions on how to sort this. KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Body

His mother works in family services - this will be dated. Do we have a date as to when? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:31, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

atched tapes of WWE's Saturday Night's Main Event, which became his favorite program. - this would have been the WWF at the time, no? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:31, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

When did he debut? The infobox says differently. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:31, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I consolidated all of the information in multiple sources to a single sentence in the early life section regarding his debut. KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

dropped the title - Jargon Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:31, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I revised all sentences that use the term "drop", but is it really considered jargon? Per Thesaurus.com, "drop" is a common synoym for lose. KyleJoan^talk 23:31, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

former rival Rawskillz - "former rival" is not needed. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:31, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

the team of Shawn Houston and Chris Raine "the team of" doesn't need to be there. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:31, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Millennium Wrestling Federation's ULTRA card - is the ULTRA card the name of the show? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:31, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is. It seems to be a recurring event for the promotion, held sporadically over the years. KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My knowledge isn't great on this, but should these be in italics, per MOS:ITALICTITLE? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:36, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the reason for the italicization of this one event is because it is also broadcast on television. KyleJoan^talk 08:48, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

he was invited to a week-long tryout by WWE - WWF. WP:RECENTISM Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:31, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This section's paragraph break was put in a weird place. I fixed that, and when he received his tryout, it was already WWE. KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

After returning from a hiatus on November 15, 2014, JAPW stripped Omega of the Light Heavyweight Championship - Why? 19:31, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

I revised the sentence entirely because the title was vacated, therefore, Omega was only stripped in the process rather than due to a specific reason. KyleJoan^talk 23:31, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Could we move the images to the right, please? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:31, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done I also removed a picture that shows him with a different promotion than the section in which it was placed. KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

there is a piece here - Regarding his life outside of wrestling, Smith said that he had no time to think about relationships because he was completely focused on his wrestling goals. - however, I know that shortly after this he began dating Hikaru Shida... I would recommend dating this statement. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:49, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A video of the match went viral and made international news, after which Omega received death threats. - this needs a cite (and probably expansion!) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:35, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life section needs to have better line breaks for paragraphs. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:35, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Watch out for WP:SEAOFBLUE. You added otaku gamer gimmick, which would need to be rephrased anyway. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:38, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I rephrased the sentence and moved the gamer link to the personal life section. KyleJoan^talk 08:48, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notes & References

Oh, I saw a few references that are in Japanese, but aren't listed as such. Needs to be changed (IE, |lang=ja) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:36, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 08:17, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

General issues

WP:INFOBOXCITE jumps out at me here. The infobox is full of citations, could we add some of these to the main body instead? The debut is weird, as the article doesn't mention 2000 at all. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:43, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Other than the one citation to support the ring name, they all have been moved to the body. KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Be careful of image captions, captions should have something in there that describes why the image is importatnt. "Omega in 2010" is a really poor one, which could explain so much more. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:48, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Could we get some WP:ALTTEXT? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:48, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are a few WP:DUPLINKS (not many). Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:48, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:JARGON is quite the issue here - things like "shot", "dropping the title", etc. need to be linked/explained. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:32, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done KyleJoan^talk 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

Comments

Automated note - If you fancy returning the favour, I have outstanding GA nominations that require reviewing at WP:GAN. I'd be very grateful if you were to complete one of these, however it's definately not manditory. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}

Thank you for your willingness to write another GA review! I see that your GA nominations are currently under review, so I'll be sure to leave additional comments regarding those articles in the coming days. I do have a question, though. I'm not really clear on when the review a specific section is finished, so would it be more appropriate to address your concerns and update the content in accordance to your recommendations once the entire article has been reviewed? KyleJoan^talk 08:52, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, yeah, I usually do this in stages, but I only had five minutes, so I just chucked a few comments here. I'll be adding additional nominations in the coming days, if you fancy doing a review (I'm currently 11 GA passed articles for this month, so my whole backlog has been worked through! Unheard of!), additionally, I do have an FA open at 2019 World Snooker Championship, if you would like to add some comments to that instead if you were interested. I'll try and get this one fully reviewed in the next two days or so. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:32, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's awesome! Shows how fascinating and notable your nominations are. I left some comments on your FA nomination. I hope they help it achieve FA. Wonderful work all around! And thank you! KyleJoan^talk 01:47, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for doing that! Looks pretty good now, I'll do the review now (or some of it, it's a long article) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:13, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

right, on hold. There's only a few things here. It's the general issues that need addressing mostly. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:37, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ok with this - as is. There's always extra information, and extra cleanup, and a lot of work would need to be in place if you were to nominate for FAC, but as of today, this meets the GA criteria, so I'll promote. Congrats. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Canadian-born Japanese" or "Canadian professional wrestler living in Japan"

Just wondering what lede introduction sounds more appropriate to you guys. Should we stick with "Canadian born-Japanese" or maybe change to "Canadian professional wrestler living in Japan", or perhaps something else. Stating that he is a "Canadian born-Japanese" may make it sound like he is of Japanese descent, but he is just simply a Japanese citizen. A bit trivial I know, but might cause a bit of confusion. Just wondering what everyone thinks sounds better. Ducktech89 (talk) 13:42, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I believe what exists in the article is appropriate. Canadian-born Japanese means exactly that: Born in Canada, national of Japan. KyleJoan^talk 14:07, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think the same. Canadian professional wrestler living in Japan looks like he is not a Japanese citizen, just living in other country, like Sheamus. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:55, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that I'm about to fix this with five letters "Yes...It's Raining" 20:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Yesitsraining: He is not an expatriate, as HHH Pedrigree outlined above, and it is improper to state Canadian-born expat Japanese professional wrestler. I don't believe there was any further issue with the first sentence, as the discussion had been dead for seven months. KyleJoan^talk 02:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I was helping but I wasn't. Sorry. "Yes...It's Raining" 20:21, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RfC about the lead section

Which of the two versions of a paragraph in the lead section is more suitable for the article?

A. Omega has also performed as part of American Ring of Honor and several independent professional wrestling promotions worldwide, including DDT Pro-Wrestling, Jersey All Pro Wrestling, and Pro Wrestling Guerrilla. Omega additionally was assigned to WWE farm territory, Deep South Wrestling, between 2005 and 2006.

B. Omega has also performed as part of larger national and international promotions, such as WWE and Ring of Honor, as well as independent ~~professional wrestling~~ promotions worldwide, including DDT Pro-Wrestling, Jersey All Pro Wrestling, and Pro Wrestling Guerrilla.

Please enter your votes under Survey and conduct any discussions under Comments. Thank you! KyleJoan^talk 09:50, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Option A. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:55, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Option A - "Developmental farm" is necessary to point out.LM2000 (talk) 12:57, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Option A - other option is misleading. MPJ-DK (talk) 17:19, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support B per WP:DUE and MOS:LEADREL. Omega's stint in DSW is documented in the span of three sentences in the body, therefore, it is sufficient to mention that he performed as part of WWE, the company under which he was contracted. Furthermore, singling out DSW creates a weird flow where we don't know what type of promotion it is; consequently, ROH is also mentioned without any description. Finally, detailing when he was in DSW is overly specific, as no other years are noted. KyleJoan^talk 11:37, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

I made the change. Option A is more accurate, while option B induce error. Omega signed a develoment contract with WWE, but he was assigned to Deep South Wrestling, the farm territory. He never worked outisde Georgia. Option B looks like he wrestled for WWE in the main roster, but he never had a match in a WWE ring. Kyle says it's overlyspecific, but other articles includes when a wrestler worked in WWE farm territry. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:55, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Examples: GA Brock Lesnar (He was assigned to its developmental promotion Ohio Valley Wrestling (OVW),) GA Dolph Ziggler (with WWE in 2004 and was sent to Ohio Valley Wrestling (OVW)/Nemeth was assigned to Florida Championship Wrestling (FCW), ) FA Shelton Benjamin (Benjamin started his professional wrestling career in WWE's developmental territory Ohio Valley Wrestling (OVW)) GA Charlie Haas ( The Haas Brothers were assigned to WWE's developmental territories,)

He never worked outisde Georgia. WP:OR; no citation in the article neither supports nor refutes this. The Lesnar article was promoted in '08, the Ziggler article in '10, the Benjamin article in '07, the Haas article in '09; do we really believe these articles could pass a reassesment? KyleJoan^talk 17:06, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

During his time in DSW, he only wrestled 15 matches, all in Georgia. If you look in the promotion list, he never wrestled in WWE, not even a dark match in Heat or Velocity. Claimin he workd with WWE it's misleading. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 17:34, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, why mention DSW at all when his stint in PCW is more extensively documented? Sounds like WP:UNDUE. The notable part about his DSW stint is that he was under a WWE contract, which brings me back to how the body documents his WWE run–which was spent in DSW–in three sentences and how describing said WWE run in one full sentence in the lead does not adhere to MOS:LEADREL when there are paragraphs/sections that are only briefly mentioned or not mentioned at all. Furthermore, what is American Ring of Honor? KyleJoan^talk 18:00, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, remove the DSW section. Again, he signed a develoment contract with WWE, but he never worked for them, just was assigned to other promotion as a develoment talent. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 18:01, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~I struck the DSW sentence as requested.~~ To clarify, your definition of working for WWE is appearing on WWE TV, correct? In relation, talents that were only in developmental territories didn't work for WWE because they were assigned to other promotion as a develoment talent? KyleJoan^talk 18:11, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I mean, people who doesn't know Omega, read "he worked for WWE", without specification, they would think he wrestled on WWE TV, RAW, SmackDown. And people doesn't always read the entire article, justthe lead. The point it's to clarify he signed a develoment deal with WWE, but worked on another promotion. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 18:26, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I feel a more accurate lede would read something like Omega wrestled for WWE's development territory Deep South Wrestling from 2005 to 2006. It is true that DSW talents were signed to a WWE contact, per Slam Sports! and PWInsider, the fact remains that he never made it to television, or even a house show. A distinction should be made. DTH89^{(sexy talk page)} 02:50, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, regarding Omega's time in PCW, as KyleJoan (talk · contribs) pointed out that it was "more extensively documented" than his time in DSW, a quick sentence could be added summarising this, saying something along the lines of Omega also wrestled extensively for Premier Championship Wrestling in his home country of Canada for much of his career. DTH89^{(sexy talk page)} 02:59, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm… At this point, I'm more in favor of removing any mention of DSW from the lead altogether. My belief was PCW was not mentioned in the lead because the promotion didn't have its own article and therefore was arguably not as notable as the ones that were included. Per MOS:LEADREL (i.e., . . . emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to published reliable sources.), the lead shouldn't include every promotion in which he worked because there are more reliable sources supporting the documentation of his stints in more notable promotions. KyleJoan^talk 04:30, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PCW is where he debuted and got his start, even though it doesn't have a wiki page, surely it has some significance. Not sure if it's lede worthy though. WP:PW/MOS recommends that for the lede section that we should summarize the most significant events in the wrestler's career for which they are known, including their stints in promotions, surely some time in WWE is notable for the lede, as he was technically on the books and under contract. Omega also mentioned his time under the WWE system in several interviews, so it's not like it's been swept under the rug. I think his time in DSW should stay, but perhaps not his PCW stint. DTH89^{(sexy talk page)} 06:02, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In Ring Mannerisms

Kenny Omega's in ring style includes overly dramatic facial expressions, an excessive amount of finger pointing, hopping before he runs, and on occasion jazz hands. It is said that Kenny Omega has a striking resemblance to Harpo Marx. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redskull1944 (talk • contribs) 13:00, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Residence update maybe?

On the latest episode of the podcast AEW Unrestricted, Tony Khan mentions that Kenny now lives in Florida. I was wondering if that should be something that should be added to the page or if we'd need more information in order to add it? Techno Bacon (talk) 22:47, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Residence

It’s confirmed that Kenny now lives in Florida. He either lives in Jacksonville or Orlando, and I believe Michael Nakazawa lives with him.

He also has a cat named Dobby CF27 (talk) 18:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide sources to verify these claims? KyleJoan^talk 04:19, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism section

This article reads like a fanzine. Omega has also been commented on in a less flattering manner. But you wouldn't know that from reading this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.83.246.23 (talk) 14:19, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2020

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add to the section about Winter is Coming that Omega won after he feigned an injury, allowing Don Callis to slide a microphone into the ring for Omega to use turning Omega heel in the process 50.36.162.241 (talk) 00:50, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 16:19, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Canadian-born Japanese" again

I don't think the current phrasing in the lede is particularly well written. Describing him as Canadian-born Japanese gives WP:UNDUE attention to the Japanese part of his nationality -- it seems to imply that he's no longer Canadian, or doesn't hold Canadian citizenship. Most articles like this would call him Canadian but mention in the personal life section that he holds dual nationality of both countries. I suggest either we do it that way round, or change it to be Canadian-Japanese, as the current wording is rather misleading. Also his current residency in the personal life section needs updating -- does anyone know when he moved away from Japan? — Czello 13:04, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At this point, I wouldn't be opposed to the first sentence stating that he is simply a Canadian-born professional wrestler and not stating any current national ties since it's been hard figuring out how his Japanese identity should factor into the opening paragraph. We can also note that he has multiple citizenships (i.e., Canadian and Japanese) in the infobox à la Olivia de Havilland and Timothée Chalamet. KyleJoan^talk 13:18, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That would suit me just fine. — Czello 13:19, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. KyleJoan^talk 13:27, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2021

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change the AEW section of championships and accomplishments to include the Dynamite Awards Omega won 50.36.91.100 (talk) 17:03, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 21:58, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2021

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the section "Professional wrestling style and persona", in the sentence "For his final appearance for NJPW at Wrestle Kingdom 13, Smith collaborated with Undertale creator Toby Fox to create a custom entrance video in the style of the game, scored to a remix of the final boss theme "Hopes and Dreams".", the entrance video was to a remix of "Your Best Nightmare" and the actual entrance was to a remix of San's fight music in the game: "Megalovania".

change '"Hopes and Dreams"' to '"Megalovania"' GamerJF25 (talk) 14:55, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done — Czello 15:00, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Triple World Champion

Let's leave it up to consensus.

Omega has the AEW World, Impact World, and AAA Mega Championships.

That makes him a triple world champion, and there is a reliable source, (Wrestling Observer) which says as much.

For some reason, KyleJoan is fighting me tooth and nail not to include it in the article.

What we need are outside eyes to take a look and give their $0.02.

I'm not seeing the issue here, but instead of going back and forth, let others have a look-see and see what they think.

Vjmlhds (talk) 03:12, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide the Wrestling Observer Newsletter article that includes the term triple world champion? That aside, how many descriptions of Omega as champion would you like to include? He's a cross-promotional champion (per Bleacher Report) as well, you know? KyleJoan^talk 03:18, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And I quote word for word from the article - "Omega would become a triple champion if he wins the title vs. title match at Rebellion. In addition to holding the AEW World Championship, he's also the AAA Mega Champion. That is about as cut and dry as it gets. Again, not seeing the problem. Vjmlhds (talk) 03:31, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the term triple world champion anywhere in that article. Where is it? KyleJoan^talk 03:33, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are we really being THAT nitpicky? As I said you and me going back and forth does no one any good, so let's see what others have to say, and we'll go from there. Vjmlhds (talk) 03:36, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You're equating the terms triple champion and triple world champion, which fails WP:V and WP:OR. Per your logic, we should state that Bayley and Keith Lee were double world champions in their respective articles as well since Pro Wrestling Sheet and Digital Spy said they were double champions.

To save other editors' time: Vjmlhds opened this discussion to propose the inclusion of an unverified term based on their original research. It's as simple as that. KyleJoan^talk 04:03, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm normally a stickler for avoiding WP:OR and making sure everything is properly sourced, I think this one falls into the realms of WP:COMMONSENSE. He clearly is a triple world champion. It's self-evident. — Czello 07:03, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No one's disputing that he's a triple world champion; pretty much anyone can conclude that stat from reading the first paragraph. What we're discussing is whether we should include the term in the article. As I said before, we could also include that he's a cross-promotional champion. COMMONSENSE would also allow us to say that he's a multi-world champion per the same principle as well as an international champion since he's holding titles in national promotions in the US and Mexico. Where does it stop? Sources aside, I don't believe readers need us to outline for them that three championships equal one being a triple champion. And finally, let's remember that true ≠ verifiable and verifiable ≠ inclusion, and we haven't even reached verifiable. Should this discussion move into an RfC, think about how ridiculous the RfC statement would sound.

“

Omega is the AEW World Champion, Impact World Champion, and AAA Mega Champion. Which description of his holding three championships should be included in the body?

A. Triple champion (per the Wrestling Observer Newsletter)
B. Triple world champion (per WP:COMMONSENSE)
C. Cross-promotional champion (per Bleacher Report)
D. Multi-world champion (per COMMONSENSE)
E. International champion (per COMMONSENSE)
F. All of the above
G. None of the above

”

KyleJoan^talk 07:44, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well firstly I'd say that being a "triple world champion" is more notable than the other possibilities you mention (calling him a "triple champion" would be entirely superfluous). Although, now that you mention it, referencing his cross promotional status would also make sense. I wouldn't be opposed to him being called a "triple world champion across three different promotions", or words to that effect. I'm also not sure I agree that RfC sounds ridiculous at all (though a bit unnecessary as calling him a triple world champion seems uncontroversial to me). But, going back to your original point, I see no issue with the term "triple world champion" being mentioned. It appears to be fairly notable to me. — Czello 08:30, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How notable is being a "triple world champion" when no source has made it such? What I personally believe remains irrelevant, as the term not existing in reliable sources makes it clear what the article should not state in Wikipedia's voice. Moreover, the other issue at hand is that citing COMMONSENSE opens the door for another editor to say that they would like to state that Omega is a multi-world champion instead or that it is more notable to specify that his titles span multiple countries. How do we decide which term to include if COMMONSENSE permits them all? Omega becoming a "multi-world champion with three world championships across three different promotions in the US and Mexico" reads undue. KyleJoan^talk 08:59, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The term "Triple world champion" has a lot of meanings. What is wrong with saying "He holds three world championship belts: the...." or similar? We should be saying "three-time world champion"; the term "triple" isn't very helpful, as it sounds like it has special meaning. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:40, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The first paragraph already specifies which championships he holds as well as the promotions to which they belong in a neutral manner. I'm not sure how it could be more descriptive than that without dipping into OR territory. I think the proposed inclusion is to note the three titles at the same time as a feat, but how appropriate is it to note such a thing when reliable reliable sources aren't even aligned in the terminology to describe it? KyleJoan^talk 08:59, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Three-time world champion" isn't adequate as it doesn't express the fact that he's holding these titles simultaneously. I'd say that "triple" rightly does have a special meaning for this very reason. That said, I'm not opposed to alternative wording. That's the rub, really: we need to express that he hasn't just held three world titles from three different companies, but that he's done this simultaneously. — Czello 09:03, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(EDIT CONFLICT) Agree with Czello. The point is he is holding three world titles at the same time. Other wrestlers held three world titles (like AJ Styles, or Kevin Owens). Also, I think it's important to include he holds/held 3 world titles from 3 major wrestling promotions at the same time. It's not the same to win titles from small independent promotions and win titles in major promotions. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:15, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's clear now that context is the core issue here because we all seem to want to assign a special meaning to the simultaneous world title reigns when no source has done so. Bleacher Report simply said he's a cross-promotional champion, highlighting the multiple promotions as the key description. The Wrestling Observer Newsletter simply said he would be a triple champion, highlighting the simultaneous multiple championship reigns rather than them being world championship reigns. I understand avid professional wrestling fans believe it's an accomplishment to hold three world titles at the same time, but I'll reiterate that no reliable source has shared this belief. KyleJoan^talk 09:58, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How about this source calling him a triple world champion? Or this source, this one, or this one. I think the notability of this could also be emphasised by this source which calls him the first-ever inter-promotional triple champion in wrestling history (through granted, doesn't say the word "world"). — Czello 10:32, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WhatCulture and prowrestling.com are unreliable per WP:PW/RS, so let's not even go there. Whether true or not, information from unreliable sources should not be given any weight. FoxSportsTV is a random blog; every post was written by a Larry Jhon. EssentiallySports does not help the discussion for the exact point that you made. Inside the Ropes seems reliable (or unproven at worst), but now we're running into a different issue: due weight. Right now we have one reliable source that uses the term "triple champion" (The Wrestling Observer Newsletter), one limitedly reliable source that uses the term "cross-promotional champion" (Bleacher Report), and one unproven/seemingly reliable source that uses the term "triple world champion". In other words, two sources highlight there being three simultaneous title reigns, one highlights the cross-promotional aspect, and one highlights the fact that it is three simultaneous world title reigns (Inside the Ropes). The term "triple world champion" is now undue. Could we be working to a deadline to try to assign this much context to a stat that's only a few days old? Would it be that painful to wait a little longer for reliable sources to write about it–which they probably will? KyleJoan^talk 10:56, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise. How about, if the exact terminology of the phrase "triple world champion" is the issue, how about an alternative wording which will act as a compromise. Omega is currently the holder of three world championships from three different promotions: in AEW he is the current AEW World Champion, in Lucha Libre AAA Worldwide the current AAA Mega Champion, and in Impact Wrestling the current Impact World Champion, each in his first reign. Something like that? — Czello 09:11, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please forgive me for sounding harsh, but this sounds like a convoluted way to assign the aforementioned context (i.e., three simultaneous world championship reigns) that reliable sources have not assigned. You said yourself that it would be superfluous to state that he is holding three titles simultaneously, so the intention to still highlight the notability of three simultaneous world title reigns remains questionable (and unverified). Also, where would we put this statement? In the first paragraph? If so, it seems that as written, the first paragraph already (more neutrally) includes the key points from the revision. KyleJoan^talk 10:27, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See above for some links which establish the notability of this -- though yes, it would be in place of the current text in the first paragraph given that he's the first person to ever do this. Though, in hindsight, now that we have sources that are calling him a "triple world champion", I think we can actually go with Vjmlhds's original phrasing. — Czello 10:32, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You mean the first person to ever become a triple champion? How is that relevant in a discussion to establish the notability of holding three world titles simultaneously based on one unproven/seemingly reliable source? Not only that, but EssentiallySports describes themselves as a blog by fans on their Twitter, which has only amassed around 900 followers, so I'm not sure how reliable their statement about Omega being the first triple champion is. It still sounds like we're scrambling to find sources to support including our own conclusions rather than include what the sources themselves have concluded in a neutral, due manner. KyleJoan^talk 11:37, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another compromise How does this sound? I believe this highlights the "triple" quality without assigning undue weight to the stat that the three titles held are world championships.

“

Omega is an executive vice president of All Elite Wrestling (AEW), in which he also performs. In addition, he appears in Lucha Libre AAA Worldwide and Impact Wrestling. He currently holds three titles across the three promotions: the AEW World Championship, the AAA Mega Championship, and the Impact World Championship, all in his first reign. He is also a former AEW World Tag Team Champion.

”

KyleJoan^talk 12:04, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is a "triple world champion" a thing? I prefer Czello's suggestion: "Omega is currently the holder of three world championships from three different promotions: in AEW he is the current AEW World Champion, in Lucha Libre AAA Worldwide the current AAA Mega Champion, and in Impact Wrestling the current Impact World Champion, each in his first reign." (although maybe we could take out the second "three"). It says what is meant and needed without using a term with little to no generally accepted meaning or usage. GaryColemanFan (talk) 14:54, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, I prefer that wording. We certainly shouldn't be coining a phrase like "triple champion". Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:58, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad the discussion has leaned toward excluding the term "triple (world) champion", but are we now considering making mass changes to the lede? If so, I don't believe the existing phrasing needs tweaking. He is signed to AEW, of which he is an executive, therefore, that bit comes first, followed by his work in AAA, then Impact. The titles are stated directly after the promotions for brevity, and readers can deduce how many titles he's holding. My understanding was that Czello's rationale for a revision revolved around the idea that Omega was the first person to ever [become a triple champion]. Since we've determined that the only source for the idea is (most likely) unreliable, why unnecessarily alter the first paragraph? KyleJoan^talk 16:01, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

At the end of the day, this was a 3-3 tie, so using the terms "triple champion" or "triple world champion" is inconclusive. I'll put that aside since it was a stalemate, however, I did tweak the lede just to tighten things up a bit, again without using terminology that has no definite answer. Vjmlhds (talk) 23:22, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NOCON, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit, and right now there's no consensus to include the term or make mass changes to the lede. More importantly, how was it appropriate to alter the first paragraph to a version that was never proposed in this entire discussion? I also disagree that it tightened things up. Please refrain from making any changes related to the discussion until we achieve a consensus. KyleJoan^talk 00:22, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(EDIT CONFLICT) What's disputable is the notion of calling these titles world championships, as there is no consensus. However, what's undisputable is that he won the top prize of these three promotions and he's reigning these top prizes simultaneously. While common sense doesnt prevail for the term "world champion", it prevails for the term "top champion", for lack of a better existing term. While the word "world" is pro wrestling jargon and is thus disputable unless rs undisputably call a title a world title, a title being called a top title for a promotion isn't wrestling jargon, as that is simply commenting on its status per common sense (ex. Paris is the capital of France) rather than the more subjective "world championship" claim. I approve of either compromise, provided it simply mentions the title's status as top championship of these promotions rather than world championship. In addition to that, we still await whether these promotions or even Omega himself (or other wrestling executives like Rhodes, Khan, young bucks, etc) refer to him as "triple world champion". If they do, it'll further legitimize the "triple world champion" claim as the sanctioning body will refer to this accomplishment as such. DrewieStewie (talk) 00:27, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Since the scope of the discussion has narrowed, I took the liberty of combining the existing paragraph with the three versions Czello, Vjmlhds, and I wrote in the most succinct manner possible. All we need to do now is state our view regarding whether it should include one of these terms (i.e., "three world championships", "three top championships", "three championships"). Does that sound good? Here's the final proposed version:

“

Tyson Smith (born October 16, 1983), better known by the ring name Kenny Omega, is a Canadian-born professional wrestler. Omega is an executive vice president of All Elite Wrestling (AEW), in which he also performs. In addition, he appears in Lucha Libre AAA Worldwide and Impact Wrestling, with which AEW has partnerships. Omega currently holds [up for discussion] across the different promotions: the AEW World Championship, the AAA Mega Championship, and the Impact World Championship, each in his first reign. He is also a former AEW World Tag Team Champion.

”

@Vjmlhds @Czello @Lee Vilenski @HHH Pedrigree @GaryColemanFan @DrewieStewie: Please state your preferred term out of the three as well as any other changes you'd like made. It would greatly help move the discussion along. Cheers! KyleJoan^talk 01:45, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are we really debating if these titles are actually world championships?!! This is veering off into the twilight zone. Both AEW and Impact literally call their top prizes World Championships, and the AAA Title was called the AAA World Heavyweight Championship, but later changed to Mega Championship just to be different. They're world titles, OK. And the proposed lede paragraph looks fine to me. Vjmlhds (talk) 02:30, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so your view is that we should include "three world championships" in the place of [up for discussion]? KyleJoan^talk 02:36, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Uh...yeah. Vjmlhds (talk) 02:55, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@KyleJoan: Yeah, I'm not sure what you hope to gain by excluding "three world championships" from the lead. This isn't disputed -- they are world championships. Nor is it undue to mention that fact as you said earlier. Also re: your earlier comment, these are hardly "mass changes to the lead", it's one single sentence. I'm going to push again for my proposed wording: it seems a nice balance between your preference and Vjmlhds's, it doesn't coin a new phrase (though I don't think "triple world champion" is particular contentious), and it's both neutral and factual. — Czello 06:56, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by my preference? I thought my latest proposal struck the nice balance you mentioned. It does not include or exclude the term "three world championships". I simply asked you to pick a term to insert in the place of [up for discussion], and since "three world championships" remains an option, you could have easily picked it, which both Vjmlhds and DrewieStewie did. My question to Vjmlhds was to get final clarification on which one they preferred. All of that said, we can continue to pick the first paragraph apart if you insist that A is better than B.

A

“

Omega is currently the holder of three world championships from three different promotions: in AEW he is the current AEW World Champion, in Lucha Libre AAA Worldwide the current AAA Mega Champion, and in Impact Wrestling the current Impact World Champion, each in his first reign.

”

B

“

Omega currently holds [up for discussion] across the different promotions: the AEW World Championship, the AAA Mega Championship, and the Impact World Championship, each in his first reign.

”

Why do readers need us to spell out that the AEW World Championship belongs to AEW? Why do we need to say over and over that he's a champion in promotion A (and one in promotion B, and one in promotion C) rather than outright say what championships he holds? Why do we need to repeat the promotions' names as if the first paragraph isn't only four sentences long? Why is the sentence missing commas? You do know that if "three world championships" becomes the favored term to replace [up for discussion], then the only difference between our two proposals would be the number of words to essentially say the same thing? KyleJoan^talk 07:32, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well then, given that there are others above who also agree with my wording (including "world") then I suggest we just go with that, as I think this conversation is dragging on needlessly for something so innocuous. In answer to your questions, it's not missing commas? Where would you add commas that don't exist already? Also, "three world championships" isn't intended to be a "favored term", it's simply a statement of fact. There is no terminology being introduced here. If the extra use of the word "AEW" bothers you, then that's easy enough to cut out, though I think it's a bit unnecessary. — Czello 07:43, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also as a suggestion for option B (I'm in favour of option A, in case that wasn't clear), I suggest you re-word it to "across their respective promotions", as "across the different promotions" is poor English. — Czello 07:46, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are those that agreed with my final wording too, are there not? The description in AEW he is the AEW World Champion is missing a comma, is it not? You didn't answer my other questions, but that's fine. Thank you for the phrasing suggestion; I'll make the change. I was simply incorporating GaryColemanFan's suggestion. How about this? I'll drop the preferred term query, and if anyone has an issue with "three world championships", then they can raise it at a later time. Let's settle this below. KyleJoan^talk 08:13, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine; let's get this finished. I'm not sure why anyone would take issue with the "world championship" phrasing, as that seems notable enough for inclusion; but as you say, we can settle that if anyone opposes it. Thank you for creating the below section. — Czello 08:30, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Come to think of it, upon remembering that the Mega Championship was formerly the AAA World Heavyweight Championship, solely on account that all three titles have, at least at one point present and past, been referred to as World Championship by name and that they have been the top championships of their respective major promotions, my preferred wording would be "currently holds the three world championships across those promotions:". In this case, referring to them as World Championships when structuring the sentence the proposed way is common sense due to all of those belts having "world championship" contained in the title's name, present or past, and all three being considered major promotions. However, I have no opposition to "the three top championships" should consensus veer that way. DrewieStewie (talk) 02:57, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Final proposal

Let's make this brief. Which of the two versions of the first paragraph is more appropriate for the article?

A

“

Tyson Smith (born October 16, 1983), better known by the ring name Kenny Omega, is a Canadian-born professional wrestler. Omega is an executive vice president of All Elite Wrestling (AEW), in which he also performs. Omega is currently the holder of three world championships from three different promotions: in AEW he is the current AEW World Champion, in Lucha Libre AAA Worldwide the current AAA Mega Champion, and in Impact Wrestling the current Impact World Champion, each in his first reign. He is also a former AEW World Tag Team Champion.

”

B

“

Tyson Smith (born October 16, 1983), better known by the ring name Kenny Omega, is a Canadian-born professional wrestler. Omega is an executive vice president of All Elite Wrestling (AEW), in which he also performs. In addition, he appears in Lucha Libre AAA Worldwide and Impact Wrestling, with which AEW has partnerships. Omega currently holds three world championships across their respective promotions: the AEW World Championship, the AAA Mega Championship, and the Impact World Championship, all in his first reign. He is also a former AEW World Tag Team Champion.

”

Czello has stated that they favored A. I prefer B. Please respond at your leisure, Vjmlhds, HHH Pedrigree, Lee Vilenski, GaryColemanFan, DrewieStewie. Cheers! KyleJoan^talk 08:13, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

B. DrewieStewie (talk) 08:21, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
B. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:32, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
B - with links, obviously, but also why do we need to define "with which AEW has partnerships"? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:38, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment it seems pretty clear consensus is leaning towards B, so I'm happy for that to just be implemented now. My main quibble was with the (rather odd) push to exclude "world championships" from the sentence, but B satisfies that so I have no issue with it. I do agree that we don't need to clarify "with which AEW has partnerships", however; though it's not a hill I'm going to die on. — Czello 09:47, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
B works for me. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:27, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
B. Looks fine. Wario-Man ^talk 16:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment and new suggestion

I was going to leave a comment yesterday, but decided not to. Maybe I should have. I honestly can't believe that this went into this much discussion over the term "triple world champion." I honestly don't know why KyleJoan had such an issue with this terminology. One of his issues was that RS's didn't call it that. They don't have to when it's COMMONSENSE. Triple world champion, triple champion, triple whatever means he holds three championships, in this case world championships, simultaneously (and there is no dispute that these are in fact world championships, that's what they have been designated as by the respective promotions; RS's don't make that decision). This is literally the same as when Becky Lynch, Bayley, and Sasha Banks all held two titles simultaneously in the past couple of years and were called a double champion (because they held two championships simultaneously). I also have an alternate proposal to writing this lead paragraph, which we can call option C. It combines elements of both A and B and also corrects some grammatical errors and redundancies. Pinging DrewieStewie, HHH Pedrigree, and Lee Vilenski as they had already voted but may prefer this new suggestion. Also pinging Czello since he commented before this post. Also, I believe the "with which AEW has partnerships" is important to note as Omega isn't contracted to the other two, at least not Impact. He's there via that partnership.

C

“

Tyson Smith (born October 16, 1983), better known by the ring name Kenny Omega, is a Canadian-born professional wrestler. He is an executive vice president of All Elite Wrestling (AEW), in which he also performs. In addition, Omega appears in Lucha Libre AAA Worldwide and Impact Wrestling, with which AEW has partnerships. He is currently the holder of the three promotions' respective world championships: the AEW World Championship, the AAA Mega Championship, and the Impact World Championship, each in his first reign. He is also a former AEW World Tag Team Champion.

”

--JDC808 ♫ 09:51, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree with everything you're saying here JDC. I'd be fine with option C: it does seem to combine the best bits of A and B fairly neatly. — Czello 09:55, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indifference betweem B and C. Prefer those two over A. DrewieStewie (talk) 10:14, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I like Option C. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:29, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Meh, there's no real content difference between B and C, just that one has had a bit of a copyedit. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:31, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well yeah, there's no content difference. They all contain the same content, just variations in how the content is presented. --JDC808 ♫ 11:13, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not seeing the need for a third option. That said, if a fourth is presented later, I'm ready to continue the discussion. Regarding C, I'm missing how it incorporated anything from A. It sounds like B except with is currently the holder of the three promotions' respective world championships as opposed to currently holds three world championships across their respective promotions and each instead of all. If we want to get nitpicky, currently the holder sounds superfluous; I thought it when Czello originally presented it, and I think it now. If we lose currently, saying he is the holder sounds even more awkward because we could easily say he is the X Champion, Y Champion, and Z Champion. If we lose the adverb from B, the sentence would work just as well. I also don't believe it is correct to suggest that KyleJoan was the only person to take issue with "triple world champion" just because they were the most elaborate about it. KyleJoan^talk 10:32, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, I don't see the need for this extensive and nitpicky of a discussion over a term that when using COMMONSENSE is completely understood what it's saying, but here we are. Your resentment to a third option also gives the impression of OWN (which may in fact be a deeper issue here; you did help promote this to GA, so you understandably are being more protective of the article). C is a compromise to issues that were present in both A and B (and in response to something you mentioned, B incorporated bits from A, as such, C contains bits from both). Yes, you were the most elaborate, which is why I singled you out. --JDC808 ♫ 11:13, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resentment? You're welcome to your impression of OWN, but I was simply alluding to the fact that a consensus had been achieved after five editors cast a !vote between the two binary options. Wikipedia must be a really boring place for you to hop on an already extensive and nitpicky discussion and make it more extensive and nitpicky. Cheers! KyleJoan^talk 11:31, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Was there really a consensus met? Obviously not or a third option wouldn't be posed. Also, although voting helps, consensus isn't solely achieved by a vote, and there are still two others you pinged who haven't provided their input yet. And FYI, that could almost be considered a personal attack. --JDC808 ♫ 12:01, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't care which option is used, as long as it doesn't have "triple world champion". GaryColemanFan (talk) 13:16, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we now have Bleacher Report - a fairly solid source - referring to Omega as a "Triple Champion"...does that do anything for anybody? Vjmlhds (talk) 14:04, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And as a refresher, there is also a reference from Wrestling Observer (scroll up towards the beginning of the discussion) which uses the phrase "triple champion". So I see no reason not to use the term "triple champion". I originally wanted to use the phrase "triple world champion", but since we have 2 sources using "triple champion", I can live with that. So to sum everything up, "Option B" has the nod as far as phrasing (B wins out as some editors said they're fine with either B or C, and there are a few more who straight up said B), and we have 2 sources (both reliable) using the term "triple champion", so there's no reason for any real objection (other than stubbornness). Vjmlhds (talk) 14:30, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We don't simply use the same verbiage as sources just because they use it, see WP:PEACOCK et al. We went to all the trouble of having specific paragraphs drawn up, none of which contained "triple champion", and then at the end you suggest chucking it in anyway. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:05, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion was over the term "triple world champion", to which no sources were found, thus it isn't used. However, there are 2 sources which use the term "triple champion" (no "world"). Yes, one word does make a difference, as there are sources (reliable ones at that) which use one phrase, while there are none that use the other. The one that has no sources isn't used, but the one that has 2 sources should have no trouble being used. I swear, I really do think some editors (no names please) just want to pick nits and split hairs just for the sake of getting to play gatekeeper or a term that rhymes with "rock stocker"..."You don't get to edit the article unless I say so". Vjmlhds (talk) 15:49, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BTW - WP:Peacock doesn't apply here, as to say someone is a triple champion merely says he has 3 different championships (triple = 3, just as double = 2, quadruple = 4, etc.) Now, if I had said Omega was the greatest thing since slice bread or the world's greatest wrestler, or something along those lines, then that's getting into peacock territory, but to merely use the phrase "triple champion" when somebody has 3 championships doesn't get to that stage. Vjmlhds (talk) 15:56, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we should be using the phrase "triple champion", "double champion", "quad champion" or anything as such. We should be saying it in plain English - "he holds three championships". Zero room for confusion. It's bizarre that we would go to this level of detail to just put something else into the article. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:35, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Everything Lee Vilenski said. We could re-litigate this entire discussion and regurgitate points like Bleacher Report also saying that he's a cross-promotional champion, but I'd rather not propose including a statement about him being a triple and cross-promotional champion. Not only that, but I found two reliable sources that say that Omega now holds four titles in total (since apparently the Unified Impact Championship counts as two to some): F4Wonline.com and Súper Luchas. Are you OK with the simple inclusion of the term "three world championships" without any monikers or would you like to continue the discussion to change that to "four championships"? Your choice. KyleJoan^talk 16:54, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The first link says he has four belts, not championships -- that's not the same. I can't see where it says he holds four championships in the second link, but that might be the poor translation feature I'm using. Either way, four titles is obviously wrong and it'd be WP:UNDUE to include it. I think we should quickly abandon this idea of calling him a triple world champion (I personally don't have an issue with that phrase but there's clearly no consensus for it) and implement one of the three options above (B seems to be carrying the most support) as this debate has dragged on long enough. — Czello 17:14, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Right. To clarify, I don't care about the phrasing as long as it isn't "triple world champion" or "triple champion". Let's just be clear. Three championships or three world championships. GaryColemanFan (talk) 23:17, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GaryColemanFan: There is the technicality that the TNA World Heavyweight Championship and the Impact World Heavyweight Championship are the same title with the same lineage that means he isn't a "triple World Champion." If it did, we'd have to call Randy Orton, John Cena, and Daniel Bryan "double World Champions" since they had the WWE and World Heavyweight Championships at the same time. They were technically unified so it makes no sense to say "double World Champion." As far as Kenny Omega goes, it makes no sense to say "triple World Champion" since the TNA and Impact World Heavyweight Championships were "unified." Plus that term it is cringe anyways. So not saying "triple World Champion," I'm in agreeance with. Technically speaking, he isn't a "triple World Champion." He only holds two World Heavyweight Championships and the AAA Mega Championship. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 10:29, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Fishhead2100: You've misinterpreted. No one is calling him a triple world champion by counting the Impact and TNA titles as two separate championships. It's the inclusion of the AAA Mega Championship (which is a world title) that would make him a "triple world champion" (though there's no consensus for the inclusion of that term). — Czello 10:37, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Czello: That the basis of this discussion. Nothing misinterpreted at all. Plus, TNA and Impact Wrestling belts are the same title and lineage. Yes, I previously thought the Mega Championship was just a secondary title. My ignorance. Didn't know (don't keep up with AAA that closely) that they just renamed the title. C through E are the best options. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 11:33, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2021

This edit request to Kenny Olivier has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change Kenny's name to kenny Olivier 86.0.237.131 (talk) 22:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. TGHL ↗ 23:46, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

New images

I removed three new images that were included in the past week and provided my reasoning here. The addition also seemed undue because all three photos are from the same event. It's not as if the article is short on images. Thoughts? KyleJoan^talk 18:23, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

During their time together in NJPW, Rhodes and Omega consistently butted heads over control of the Bullet Club faction...

...Eventually culminating in Rhodes attacking Omega at The New Beginning in Sapporo, leading to a "Civil War" within the group...

...but also to Omega and Ibushi reuniting after many years apart.

For anyone else looking at this conversation, The images myself and KyleJoan are referring to are in this box to the right >>>

@KyleJoan:

Firstly, Each image represents a major "storyline" that span over many months, not just the specific event the images are taken from. The first image represents the conflict between Rhodes and Omega in the many months up until that point. The second image represents not just the beginning of the Omega/Rhodes feud, but of the Civil War that occurred within Bullet Club coming out of the event. Finally, the third image represents the reunion of Omega and Ibushi, a "storyline" months if not years in the making and was a major "thread" coming out of the show. The images are not intended to represent the events of just one night, but taken in total, months and months and months of "plot". If the body of the article doesn't reflect those plot points enough (and really, it should by right...), then really is a case that the body of the article should be updated rather than these images removed.

Secondly, to address the point that "It's not as if the article is short on images", I would say that's a very subjective statement. I would say let's look at another high profile article rated "Good" for comparison, since articles rated "Good" are subject to vigorous reviews before earning that mark. Let's look at the Barack Obama article for example; almost every subsection in that article is accompanied by a relevant image, in many cases more than one image. Looking at that highly reviewed article in comparison, having relevant images throughout does not seem to be an issue. Also, I would suggest that if there are other images that you think are not relevant to the article, those could be reviewed.

Thirdly, I would point out that these images of actual moments from a televised wrestling show are extremely rare to have available. Instead, any images from major media are extremely difficult to use on Wikipedia outside of fair use because almost always they're strictly copyrighted. It's only by the grace of NJPW releasing some footage to Youtube under a Creative Commons BY-SA 3.0 license that I was able to get these images. If more pieces of media, such as film or TV, did likewise, I am certain that Wikipedia would feature similar "plot" images such as these much more frequently. For example, in the Saving Private Ryan article, File:Into the Jaws of Death 23-0455M edit.jpg is basically used a stand-in for the infamous opening shots of the film. If actual stills from the film were freely available, I'm positive they would be used in its stead. The point I'm making here is that it's rare, if ever, that Wikipedia articles discussing media have access to such directly related material, and I think it would be very strange in one of the rare instances where we do have such images freely available to us that their use is blocked internally.

Fourthly, building off the third point, NJPW only releases a certain amount of footage under the CC BY 3.0 license. Getting alternatives to these images would be extremely, extremely difficult. That's part of the reason all three are the same event, we have to get "more bang for our buck" out of them as we don't really have the option to use images of Rhodes and Omega from other events.

I hope I've laid out a pretty conclusive logic for why I think it's absolutely fair to use these images. CeltBrowne (talk) 21:55, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:TEXTWALL. The longer the text, the less likely others will read it.

Your first point does not apply to every image, as some of your months of "plot" does not exist in prose or sources (e.g., Civil War). Regardless of how significant it is to fans, Omega and Ibushi's moment is only suitable as a bare mention in prose since that's what the source gives it. Your second point does not indicate this article needs more images; Obama containing more does not mean that that article has too many or that this one has too few. I think it would be very strange in one of the rare instances where we do have such images No guideline states we must use rare files. While Omega and Cody's feud in NJPW is documented, it would be almost futile to include images that mainly (if not entirely) focus on Cody, as there are six from Omega's time in NJPW already.

Please feel free to ping other editors or open an RfC to obtain a consensus if you'd like. Cheers! KyleJoan^talk 02:05, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with CeltBrown. Images are for illustrate articles and help the readers. This 3 images, as he said, are different parts of the storyline and illustrate the article. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:58, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please direct me to the text and sources that say there were storylines involving a "Civil War" in Bullet Club and a reunion between Omega and Ibushi after many years apart. I genuinely don't see them. We could illustrate the article with many images (e.g., Omega performing the One-Winged Angel; Kazuchika Okada, with whom Omega had seven-star matches; the Bullet Club logo). All three examples, seen below, illustrate the article and help readers. Does that mean they should be included? Is the standard for inclusion that low?

KyleJoan^talk 09:21, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

>Please direct me to the text and sources that [confirm] a reunion between Omega and Ibushi "after many years apart".

1. The two former tag team partners and close friends went their separate ways in 2014 [1]

2. English-language commentator Kevin Kelly extrapolated on [the reunion in 2018] we just saw before our very eyes: “This is what the fans have been waiting for literally for years" [2]

3. They last wrestled as a team in 2014 and their [first ] match [back together] last weekend [in 2018] was highly anticipated among the pro wrestling cognoscenti. [3]

>Please direct me to the text and sources that say there were storylines involving a "Civil War" in Bullet Club

1. “Bullet Club is fine” was a phrase Cody repeated time and again in an attempt to quell talk that trouble was brewing between him and Bullet Club leader Kenny Omega. However, to paraphrase a line from “Pulp Fiction,” it was evident that things were pretty far from fine. Cody obviously wanted to supplant Omega as the leader of the faction, and it forced their fellow Bullet Club members to choose sides in a civil war that played out in both Ring of Honor and New Japan Pro-Wrestling. A match between the two alpha males was inevitable, and it took place at Supercard of Honor in April. Cody scored a tainted victory by pinning Omega after The Young Bucks attempted to superkick Cody but inadvertently nailed Omega instead. Nothing was truly settled, and a rematch was booked for NJPW’s G1 Special -- and this time the stakes were even higher because Omega’s IWGP Heavyweight Title was on the line. In a wild and intense match that featured the use of tables and ladders as weapons, Omega emerged as the victor of the match and the feud. [4] "Feud Of The Year: Cody vs Kenny Omega" - ROHwrestling.com

2. The Week in Wrestling: Tama Tonga Says Bullet Club Civil War ‘Has Been a Long Time Coming’ [5]

3. I won't quote directly from this ESPN article interviewing the Young Bucks as it's quite long, but in it they discuss how the original plan for a split within Bullet Club was supposed to revolve around Omega vs Adam Cole, but then Adam Cole got signed to WWE, so they had to pivot to Omega vs Rhodes. [6] - ESPN.com

>We could illustrate the article with many images (e.g., Omega performing the One-Winged Angel; Kazuchika Okada, with whom Omega had seven-star matches; the Bullet Club logo).

I personally would quite favour that over having the "Championship Gallery" collection of images at the bottom of the page. I think it's more interesting to have different kinds of images across the article instead of 5 very similar profile shots of Omega together in one part of the article. CeltBrowne (talk) 16:45, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was asking for sources highlighting the hug as significant in relation to a storyline rather than an isolated moment that happened during an event. Still not seeing them. 'Paste' and OutSports merely say Omega and Ibushi tagged. Uproxx quoted Kelly as saying fans cared about their hug.

The ROH website insinuates that the war was simply between Omega and Cody, which renders the second image even more futile because the first already shows the two at odds. 'Sports Illustrated' used "Civil War" to describe the attack by Tama Tonga, Tanga Loa, and King Haku on Omega and Cody after the two had united. Why include an image of Cody attacking Omega to illustrate an unrelated conflict that had them on the same side? KyleJoan^talk 17:41, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just going to be honest, You are becoming pedantic and obtuse now. The ROH article does not "insinuate" anything, it flat out explicitly states what the storyline was; a power struggle for control of the Bullet Club faction that forced members to side either with Cody, Omega, or as later emerged, a third side in the Tongan faction ("Bullet Club OGs/Bullet Club Firing Squad"). As for your request to "show you a source that highlights the significance of the hug", I find this to be exasperating. I have to ask at this point, genuinely, did you actually watch any of this wrestling as it happened? Because the way you're speaking, it comes across as if you've no memory or knowledge of any of this occurring. The hug is thee moment that Omega and Ibushi, the former "Golden Lovers" tag team, finally got together after years apart. Streamers literally fell from the roof to mark its importance. This Cagesideseats article recaps the entirety of the Omega/Ibushi storyline and notes the hug/embrace as the climactic moment they finally put aside their differences. [7]

Earlier you asked me to provide you with sources. I quoted you and provided specifically what you asked for. What you did in response was shift the goalposts. You asked for proof of a reunion, I provided that, then it becomes that I have to prove the significance of the hug. You ask for proof of a "Civil War", I provided you with a source using that exact term and you try and twist it the explict meaning. This does not encourage me to keep providing you with sources as you can just move the goalposts again.

At this point, I think the most productive thing to do is for me to wait and hope for more WikiProject Pro Wrestling members to comment. I think I've demonstrated what I'm referring to in the captions did in fact occur and I really don't want to have to keep linking to sources over and over again to prove that. CeltBrowne (talk) 18:58, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Never moved the goalposts. I asked for sources and text to show the images would support content that is in the article. Still not seeing them. Because ... it comes across as if you've no memory or knowledge of any of this occurring. I'm not comfortable with citing my personal memory or knowledge and violating WP:DUE to give the Omega and Ibushi reunion more weight than its actual prominence in sources. Maybe that's where you and I differ. Streamers literally fell from the roof to mark its importance. Streamers aren't reliable sources. KyleJoan^talk 01:44, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following is from the thesis Real Fake Fighting: the Aesthetic of Qualified Realism in Japanese Professional Wrestling by Clara Marino of the University of Massachusetts Amherst. [8]

However, one of the most prominent types of angles in Japanese pro-wrestling is a less abstracted one: friendship and betrayal. Most real combat sports are isolated endeavors. Fights that involve teams in almost any form are incredibly rare. Rather, professional fights are commonly discussed as being the culmination of two skilled and dedicated individuals who compare each other’s training and physical condition to determine who can be considered stronger and more skilled, at least until they fight again. This highly individualistic narrative leaves little room for discussion of friendship. In pro-wrestling, though, there are ample opportunities to inject such stories. One of the most obvious ways is through tag team matches, which NJPW features quite prominently...

...One particularly famous example though, is that of the Golden Lovers, Kenny Omega and Kota Ibushi. Omega and Ibushi first met in 2008 in the Japanese promotion DDT, and in 2009 formed their tag team, the Golden Lovers, whose loose gimmick was the vague implication of being in a romantic relationship. The team quickly grew in popularity, in 2010 debuting in New Japan, where they went on to take the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship from Apollo 55, a match that earned the magazine Tokyo Sports’ Best Bout Award for 2010.86 Eventually, both Omega and Ibushi would become regular members of NJPW, but their relationship soon appeared to sour, particularly as Omega joined the Bullet Club in 2014 under the leadership of A.J. Styles. Omega eventually became leader of the Bullet Club by attacking Styles and became one of NJPW’s most prominent heels. In time, though, tensions mounted between him and stablemate Cody. These tensions eventually came to a head when, at New Year Dash 2018, Omega interrupted a ritual Bullet Club attack on Ibushi led by Cody.87 Then, at New Beginning in Sapporo 2018, Cody attempted to usurp Omega and attack him with the rest of the Club, in a similar move to how Omega himself had taken over the faction from A.J. Styles. Ibushi, though, interrupted the attack, fended off the Bullet Club members, and warmly embraced Omega (see fig. 6) .88 With this, the Golden Lovers were reformed, and Ibushi would accompany Omega for many of his most important matches with the promotion, such as his title victory against Kazuchika Okada, as well as in a fight with Cody at the 2018 G1 Special in San Francisco that instigated Omega’s reconciliation with him as well.89 Being an IWGP Heavyweight Champion and an otherwise high profile member of NJPW’s roster, the fact that so many of Omega’s storylines during his time at the company revolved around friendship, betrayal, and reunion highlights these themes’ prevalence in Japanese wrestling.

What is figure 6 you might ask? Oh, it's only a screenshot of Omega and Ibushi embracing at New Beginnings in Sapporo, just like the one I was trying to add to this article.

Now, would you like to concede the point? Or are you going to contest this thesis which is literally using the moment that Ibushi and Omega embraced as an example of friendship and reunion as themes in the art of professional wrestling? CeltBrowne (talk) 03:21, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SCHOLARSHIP: Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence. Well? KyleJoan^talk 03:44, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is the most work I've ever had to do just to insert an image into an article. This surely must also be the highest standard the inclusion of an image on a pro wrestling article has ever been held to.

Kenny Omega and Kota Ibushi’s recent reunion stands to be the next great friendship story in wrestling, in large part because it’s based on (again) a very earnest and real friendship. An exhaustive history of the Golden Lovers was written in the aftermath of New Beginning by Emily Pratt and it’s worth reading in full, but the very general gist is that these two men met in the quasi-comedy/high weirdness of Japan’s DDT promotion, formed a remarkable tag team, and then went their separate ways, Ibushi to a sort of traveling free agent pro wrestling dilettante, Omega to headlining NJPW shows. When Ibushi saved Omega from a double-crossing attack by fellow Bullet Club member Cody Rhodes, they embraced and confetti actually fell from the rafters. The crowd went nuts. All of that is fairly standard, if extremely heartfelt due to just how beloved both men are in Japan. But the statements afterwards ratcheted up the raw emotion. “If we aren’t together, there’s no point. I want us to change the world together,” Omega told Tokyo Sports. - Kenny Omega and Kota Ibushi's Friendship is Why We Love Pro Wrestling by Ian Williams, Vice News. The article goes on to discuss the significance and undertones of their reunion. The image featured at the beginning of the article is...surprise, surprise, Omega and Ibushi embracing at New Beginnings in Sapporo.

It’s been 18 months since pro wrestlers Kenny Omega and Kota Ibushi, collectively known as the Golden Lovers, reunited with a tearful embrace in the middle of a New Japan Pro Wrestling ring. The moment was 10 years in the making, bringing two men with a unique love and history together in one of the industry’s most positive portrayals of coded same-sex relationships. - The LGBTQ pro wrestling movement is alive and well in the Golden Lovers’ wake by Brian C. Bell, Outsports [9]

OutSports has a distinct bias, so if you're citing it to illustrate one of the industry's ... coded same-sex relationships, then that source would not suffice. Vice Media, on the other hand, seems adequate, so congrats on that.

The standard is high because you're proposing to include an image to illustrate a narrative that the prose does not comprise. Do you not understand that? The article documents an isolated moment between Omega and Ibushi after a previous partnership, but it does not say they are friends or more. If images warrant inclusion for supporting one sentence rather than a major part of a section, I could easily include a sentence about Omega having a cat, supported by a reliable source, and an image of a cat. Should we do that? It's also interesting that you're pushing to include the file rather than any additional prose about Omega and Ibushi's partnership, which leads me to believe you also don't think DUE would be met if we were to write more content per these sources. Be honest. Are you trying to include the image to highlight the undertones of their reunion? KyleJoan^talk 06:17, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Celt, you're pro-cancer right? What? You're not? Well, you've never said you were anti-cancer, so therefore I must assume you're pro-cancer!

Where the hell are you getting the idea that I'm against adding additional prose? This entire thread has been you writing in such a way as to suggest that the things I referred to in the captions never happened, asking me to provide evidence and then me providing sources to demonstrate that they did in fact occur. I'm here reacting to your prompts (which was outstandingly foolish of myself, as you alone do not set the standard for what warrants inclusion in the article or not, yet I was out here letting you make me jump through hoops), and so far, you mainly made this about what the images represent, not the prose. If the issue was the prose, you simply should have said at the beginning of the thread "I'd be fine with the images so long as the prose was updated/expanded to reflect what they're discussing" and I'd have gone ahead and expanded the prose.

The only reason I quoted from those LGBT publications was because you demanded proof that the Golden Lovers reunion was significant or that it ever happened at all, and those publications, amongst others, just so happened to be ones which provided that evidence. But I'm so glad that I did include those sources, because maybe it explains why you're so adamant about these images not being included. Your reasoning for excluding these images has jumped all over the place. Firstly it was because we couldn't see Omega's face, then because they were all from the same event, then it was because the storylines I referenced never even happened, and even if they did, they're not relevant, and now it's because I have a secret gay agenda. Let me flip the question back to you; "Be Honest", Is the only reason you're opposing the inclusion of these images because you're not comfortable with the third one? I sincerely hope not, but at least there'd be a coherent reason behind this naked obstructionism.

I'm done trying to chase your ever-moving goalposts. I said that before and damn me, I should have kept to it. If you're actually here to discuss in good faith, outline the situation in which you would be happy to see the inclusion of these images, not this deal of sending me on fool's errands. And if it's no situation in which you'd be happy to see these images included, great job wasting my time. Either outline what it would reasonably take for you not to object to their inclusion, or I take this to dispute resolution, where it now belongs. And before you go setting those goalposts as high as possible, I'll remind you where we started out on this: "Please direct me to the text and sources that say there were storylines involving a ""Civil War"" in Bullet Club and a reunion between Omega and Ibushi "after many years apart". If your criteria for the inclusion of the images is radically different to expanding the prose to reflect those storylines, I'll know it's just more fool's errands. CeltBrowne (talk) 08:14, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is the only reason you're opposing ... because you're not comfortable with the third one? Lol.

Your reasoning ... has jumped all over the place. Sorry that I'm able to hold and present multiple thoughts at once? Take it to dispute resolution if you'd like. Cheers! KyleJoan^talk 09:24, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kenny Omega does not train "in a ring that spins"

This addition was added in misunderstanding.

Smith has suffered from vertigo since 2018. Due to the condition, he trained to wrestle in a ring that spins.[199]

In the linked article, this is the statement made;

"“Yeah, it's been an issue since 2018. I just get really bad vertigo. I get dizzy in the ring. I can't — the room spins. It's been a new skill I've had to inherit is wrestling in a spinning ring. So to make sure I get that straightened out as much as I can, as often as I can is really paramount for my performances.""

This has nothing to do with Omega actually creating a spinning ring. Vertigo makes it feel to him like the ring is spinning when he wrestles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AllYourKayfabeFriends (talk • contribs) 15:27, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox picture, vandalism?

Is there a reason why the infobox image for Kenny Omega continues to be an unflattering image from 6 years ago?

It's over half a decade old
It no longer accurately portrays him
There are plenty of more recent photos

I can't help but think that the constant reverting of this article to include this image as the main photo is being done so as an act of vandalism (i.e. editing an article intentionally to portray a subject in a negative/unappealing light). — Preceding unsigned comment added by PantinFR (talk • contribs) 18:44, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What's the proposed alternative photo? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:02, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a reason we shouldn't use File:WMC AEWOMEGA-CHAMP.jpg? It's more recent, a clearer picture, and higher quality. — Czello 19:12, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reason to not to include the picture. I think there is this idea of "picture with titles goes to C&A section", but no. You can include the title picture. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 22:28, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. — Czello 13:48, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 13 May 2022

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Requesting "Canadian-born" to be changed into "Canadian" as in other Wikipedia articles "x-born" is used for people who were born and raised in different countries which isn't the case for Kenny Omega. 46.106.110.247 (talk) 13:26, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:34, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Change "Canadian-born" to Canadian

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

"x-born" in other Wikipedia articles imply that the person was born and raised in different countries, which is not the case for Kenny Omega. Here's a source where's mentioned being a native Canadian: https://www.gamesradar.com/meet-kenny-omega-wrestler-every-gamer-should-know/ As per Wikipedia standards, in the first paragraph he should be addressed as "Canadian" and his dual-Japanese nationality should be mentioned in the "personal life" section. 46.106.110.247 (talk) 13:55, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Nationalities and such are a thing, so discuss this here on the talk page. You can see multiple times this has been discussed above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:06, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but "x-born" is strictly used for what I mentioned above. Kenny Omega was born and raised in Canada and gained Japanese citizenship much later in life. As per Wikipedia standards, the opening paragraph should read "Canadian" professional wrestler. Gabagoolgoomar (talk) 14:40, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Define "raised". What's the maximum age one can be when they move from their native country to be regarded as "raised" there? "Canadian professional wrestler" has implications as well (i.e., that he only has national ties to Canada and nowhere else), which isn't accurate based on the discussion above. In addition to meeting MOS:ETHNICITY, "Canadian-born" is in line with MOS:ROLEBIO in that it is widely used in reliable sources. KyleJoan^talk 17:22, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2022

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In the section ‘[Bullet Club and various championship reigns]’, the last paragraph states that Omega’s 2017 Wrestle Kingdom 11 match against Kazuchika Okada was the longest main event in Tokyo Dome history. This was true at the time, but the record was broken in 2021 by Kota Ibushi and Jay White at Wrestle Kingdom 15. The 48:05 match time is listed on [the Wikipedia page for Wrestle Kingdom 15]. Suggest either deleting the reference to the longest match, or updating to say that the record has since been broken. 97.120.218.215 (talk) 01:35, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done The paragraph has been updated accordingly, thank you for your attention to detail. When making claims that require sources, please ensure that you refer directly to (external) reliable sources, not other Wikipedia articles. This makes the reviewer's job a lot easier :) Actualcpscm (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2022

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In the beginning paragraph. After you list Omega is the inaugural trio champions you should add "Omega is widely considered one of the greatest wrestlers of all time." As this line adds to how great Omega is and how many wrestling critics view him. 2601:19B:A00:CEC0:4196:5A06:BB88:EBB1 (talk) 08:30, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: This is already mentioned in the final paragraph of the lead: "Hailed as one of the best professional wrestlers in the world, Omega was named Sports Illustrated's Wrestler of the Year in 2017, and topped Pro Wrestling Illustrated's list of top 500 male wrestlers the following year and in 2021." ARandomName123 (talk) 19:17, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 March 2023

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It is impossible to havd dual citizenship in Japan. Either he is a Japanses citizen or Canadian not both. 2600:6C46:6C00:5BD:5134:EB2:BF53:63B (talk) 04:14, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: His dual citizenship is sourced. M.Bitton (talk) 14:01, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

LGBT paragraph in Omega's personal life section

@KyleJoan: You began a conversation on my user talk page, but let's have it here on the article's talk page. For anyone else reading this, we are discussing the bottom paragraph of the personal life section in this version of the article, which has been reverted.

First all, the paragraph is primarily sourced by Yahoo News and WON/WOR. When I said "Primarily", I did not mean 6 divided by 3; "Primarily" means the information itself is mainly drawn WON/WOR and Yahoo News but augmented by addition of Outsports who confirm what's already stated by WON/WOR and Yahoo News. I can and will take out the Outsports sources if you'd like me to, but I feel that everything I've written will still stand on the Yahoo News and WON/WOR sources I've included alone. Also, WOR and WON are the same entity (in a near-literal sense, both being Journalist Dave Meltzer), in the same manner a video from CNN and a written article from CNN are both CNN, or a video with Journalist A and an article by Journalist A are both sourced from Journalist A.

Secondly, you suggested the paragraph breaks WP:BLP, but reading Dojo Cat#Personal life, Lil Nas X#Coming Out, and Miley Cyrus#Sexuality and gender, I don't see how my paragraph differs in any way. You cited WP:NOTGOSSIP, but again, my paragraph doesn't differ from the likes of Miley Cyrus#Sexuality and gender, which is also a GA rated article.

Finally, you object to the sourcing of the opening sentence, but I can provide an additional reliable source from CBC.ca which supports it. [10].

I am happy to remove Outsports and add CBC.ca if these would address your concerns; would this suffice?

And if not, could you please offer suggestions to how your concerns could be reasonably met.

Regards, CeltBrowne (talk) 10:44, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Meltzer might be a journalist, but the WOR clip is an analysis of the documentary on Omega and not factual reporting, therefore, it does not help any reference to Omega's sexual orientation become due. The comparison you've drawn to CNN is incomplete. Dave Meltzer is Don Lemon. While CNN is reliable, we wouldn't cite Don Lemon's analyses on his former program and automatically deem them reliable or due.

The WP:OSE examples are not valid here. The prominence of the material about those subjects' sexualities is determined by the prominence of the coverage–Miley Cyrus, the GA-level article of the three, includes more than several exceptional claims that are supported by exceptional sources. The only exceptional source here, Yahoo!, only verifies quotes and not any of the general claims. One additional source is also not sufficient to justify the proposed length, which brings me to...

The CBC says Omega is involved in "LGBT-friendly storylines". There's nothing in that source that outlines any speculation or his sexuality itself.

I'm concerned that you believe everything [you've] written will still stand on [Yahoo! and 'WON'] alone, but given our past interactions, I'm not optimistic that anything I say could change that belief, so feel free to open a discussion on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. KyleJoan^talk 11:25, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the meantime since my last reply, I've been doing more examining of Wikipedia guidelines. One thing I wish I could have covered in my first reply relates to your concern that Outsports should not be used because it is "biased", however WP:BIASED states that a source should not be discounted on bias alone, rather than the bias of that source should be accounted for when considering them. In the same manner that Miley Cyrus#Sexuality and gender used the phrasing Time magazine reported", the phrasing Outsports reported that or Outsports suggested that could be used if necessary, which is the kind of language suggested in WP:BIASED. Outsports is a wing of Vox, which is considered a reliable source WP:RSPVOX. It's unfortunate that I didn't see that before the first reply.

The CBC says Omega is involved in "LGBT-friendly storylines". There's nothing in that source that outlines any speculation or his sexuality itself.

The CBC source can be used to support the opening sentence of the paragraph, which you have objected to. The Golden Lovers story is the LGBT storyline which CBC is referring to. I can alter the phrasing of the sentence if necessary, but source supporting the underlying assertion that Omega and Ibushi have suggested through the medium of wrestling that they are/were in a romantic relationship.

but the WOR clip is an analysis of the documentary on Omega and not factual reporting

A reliable source is stating what the content of a documentary is. Journalist Dave Meltzer stating that a component of the documentary is the implied romantic relationship between Omega/Ibushi is no different to Journalist A stating a component of the Jurassic Park series is the relationship between Humans and Dinosaurs. That's not analysis of something complex such as the themes of the film, It is a factual statement about the content of the film.

If I amended the phrasing of the paragraph and used additional sources, would this address your concerns? CeltBrowne (talk) 12:15, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neither OutSports article even verifies that first sentence, so it's almost irrelevant whether its use is appropriate.

The CBC can only be used to support Omega and Ibushi being in a LGBT storyline but not about either subject's sexuality, the former of which has nothing to do with Omega's personal life regardless of how much synthesizing you're attempting.

Meltzer's description isn't fact. That clip is full of Meltzer referencing himself (e.g., "I think..."). The Jurassic Park comparison is absurd because you could find hundreds of sources–print and online–to support a claim about its exploration of human and dinosaur relationship dynamics. The same can't be said about an implied romantic relationship between Omega/Ibushi.

This discussion is becoming futile, so rather than engage in hypotheticals, please present this new phrasing and sources on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. I maintain that this paragraph is a WP:BLP violation. Good luck. KyleJoan^talk 13:21, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was bold, you reverted, and now we are both discussing. I am willing to make compromises and amendments, and have already offered to do so. If we're going by what's suggested in Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle (which I acknowledge is optional, but is considered good etiquette) is seems like I should make the new phrasing as a new bold edit, and you can edit or revert that new edit if you believe it is still not addressing your concerns. I'd much prefer if you would edit your specific issues with the paragraph instead of bloc reverting the entire thing.

One of us can notify Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard of this discussion, but I would imagine anyone without knowledge of the genre of professional wrestling is going to struggle to follow this conversation.

The Jurassic Park comparison is absurd because you could find hundreds of sources–print and online–to support a claim about its exploration of human and dinosaur relationship dynamics. The same can't be said about an implied romantic relationship between Omega/Ibushi.

That's a measure of popularity, not truth. If only 3 written sources in the entire world noted that Jurassic Park is about dinosaurs, it'd still be true to say Jurassic Park is about dinosaurs. The reason there are 100s of sources about Jurassic Park is because it was an blockbuster Hollywood film(s) seen by a mainstream audience of millions and millions in dozens of languages. Omega/Ibushi occurred in Japan before a predominately Japanese speaking wrestling audience. In all probably, there are probably more sources in Japanese about this dynamic, but as someone who doesn't understand Japanese, that would be difficult for me to source them. If the Omega/Ibushi angle had been seen by as many people internationally as Jurassic Park, sourcing would not be anywhere near as difficult.

One thing I would like to try and clear up is that I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what the paragraph is trying to state (and perhaps this part of the root of disagreement here). On Wikipedia, and in writing in general, there is a essential difference between writing John Smith is the most fiscally conservative President in history and John Smith has claimed to be the most fiscally conservative President in history.

My impression right now is that you think I'm trying to state

Tyson Smith is a gay/bisexual man

whereas what I'm trying to communicate with this paragraph is

Kenny Omega, both in and out of the ring, has suggested he is a gay or bisexual man

It may be a contentious thing to state "John Smith is the most fiscally conservative President in history" as a fact because it is possibly incorrect or heavily contested. However, it should not, ever, be a contentious thing to note that John Smith has claimed to be the most fiscally conservative President in history, and to use that as signifier of what he stands for. This difference is presenting information is outlined in WP:WIKIVOICE.

Using the Wikivoice to state Omega/Smith is gay/bisexual at this moment in time would probably be a BLP violation...but that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm noting the claims/language/insinuations.

Do you see what I'm trying to say here? I hope that helps clarify the purpose of the paragraph. CeltBrowne (talk) 15:35, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We only include material that we could source sufficiently and appropriately. "I know this material is appropriate even though I can't fully respond to the policy concerns" does not cut it. Your clarification confirms that even the intent behind the paragraph is a violation because none of these sources supports claims/language/insinuations about Omega's sexual orientation. Our specialized wrestling knowledge cannot and should not determine what we include. Sources do. As fans, yes, we may have picked up hints from consuming the products that Omega's in-universe character has exuded LGBT undertones, but to note how that relates to his actual sexual orientation without sufficient sourcing is just unacceptable. This article does not get to circumvent the BLP policy just because it's a pro wrestling article. You can't convince me otherwise. KyleJoan^talk 16:28, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was 80% into writing this reply when I saw you post on my talk page stating you don't want to keep discussing this. I am still posting the following for the benefit of any other editors joining the discussion, as clarifies the use of some sources, and also introduces some new ones.

I've never, at any point, suggested the article can violate BLP policy on the basis of it being a pro wrestling article. Previously, I simply said members of the BLP noticeboard may struggle to follow this specific conversation.^[a] Those are entirely two separate sentiments. I was and have always been open to other editors being involved in this discussion; in fact in the very first post of this thread I gave a clarification in the opening to help any editors navigate the discussion. For what it's worth, I've left a message on the BLP noticeboard directing them to this discussion.

You are correct that "Our specialized wrestling knowledge cannot and should not determine what we include. Sources do.", which is why I made a good-faith effort to improve the sourcing of the first sentence with several additional sources, something I'd like to segway into now.

In your edit summary, one of the reason you gave for removing them was the author of the 'Mel' magazine says Omega is openly bisexual; that disqualifies these articles right away. However, I have three sources here where all three authors state that Omega is "openly bisexual":

1. Main-eventer and executive vice president Kenny Omega (real name Tyson Smith) is openly bisexual.^[1]

2. Omega also brings something unique to wrestling as far as representation goes. He’s openly bisexual and willing to discuss being so in interviews.^[2]^[b]

3. This bizarre dynamic plays into the controversy surrounding The Golden Lovers: Kenny Omega has come out as bisexual, and while Kota Ibushi has not discussed his IRL sexuality in public,fans continue to debate his proclivities.^[3]

So it seems like rather than being a outright error, there is a minority view amongst some authors that Kenny Omega the person is "openly bisexual". I don't think the sources should be disqualified for expressing a minority view; we can use them and account for the fact that their view on that specific aspect may be a minority one. We're not citing them to suggest Omega the person is bisexual, we're citing the part where they discuss the on-screen romantic relationship between Omega the character and Ibushi the character.

Another part of your edit summary stated

"major component" is according to Dave Meltzer only, so questionable whether due

Since last night I have come across this source. It is a press release from Bell, who funded and help broadcast the documentary. The press release explicitly states that the documentary is covering the implied "romantic relationship" between Omega and Ibushi. I would like to now add this source to the article, and return to the "major component" phrasing as the source explicitly supports that. However, because the preceding sentences were removed, I would have to write something like "A major component of the 2019 documentary Omega Man: A Wrestling Love Story was the implied romantic relationship between Omega and Kota Ibushi".

Now that I have a source explicitly stating a major component of the 2019 documentary was was the implied romantic relationship between Omega and Kota Ibushi, can someone suggest how I can add this information to the article without it being objecting to? Because the term "romantic relationship" was previously removed, I fear readding the term based on this new source will cause issues.

Finally, to reiterate once again: I am not stating that Tyson Smith the person is definitely bisexual. I am stating that on-screen Kenny Omega the character and Kota Ibushi have had an implied romantic relationship that was a "storyline" in both DDT and NJPW, and subsequently Tyson Smith the person has been ambiguous about Tyson Smith's sexuality. If you want to cut off the Tyson Smith part, that's whatever. At this point I am simply trying to incorporate the information that Kenny Omega the character has been, on screen, implied to be in a romantic relationship with Kota Ibushi, in a way that is not objected to.

===Footnotes===

^ At the time I should have stated that I meant that I thought other editors not familiar with wrestling may find elements/terminology such as "Kenny Omega the character" vs "Kenny Omega the person" confusing
^ ProWrestling.Net is considered a reliable source per Wikipedia:PW/RS

===References===

^ Bixenspan, David (2020). "The New Brand Battle in Pro Wrestling Isn't Just About Entertainment — It's About Inclusion". Retrieved 11 June 2023.
^ Pruett, Will (3 August 2017). "Will's New Thing – Falling in Love with Kenny Omega, far too many must-watch matches, and two Shane McMahon gifs!". ProWrestling.net. Retrieved 11 June 2023.
^ Shorey, Eric (27 May 2018). "The Golden Lovers Explained: The Complexities Of Pro-Wrestling's Gayest Tag Team". INTO magazine. Retrieved 11 June 2023.

CeltBrowne (talk) 12:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] At the time I should have stated that I meant that I thought other editors not familiar with wrestling may find elements/terminology such as "Kenny Omega the character" vs "Kenny Omega the person" confusing

[4] ProWrestling.Net is considered a reliable source per Wikipedia:PW/RS

[Bixenspan-2] Bixenspan, David (2020). "The New Brand Battle in Pro Wrestling Isn't Just About Entertainment — It's About Inclusion". Retrieved 11 June 2023.

[3] Pruett, Will (3 August 2017). "Will's New Thing – Falling in Love with Kenny Omega, far too many must-watch matches, and two Shane McMahon gifs!". ProWrestling.net. Retrieved 11 June 2023.

[Shorey_for_INTO-5] Shorey, Eric (27 May 2018). "The Golden Lovers Explained: The Complexities Of Pro-Wrestling's Gayest Tag Team". INTO magazine. Retrieved 11 June 2023.

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@@ Line 518: / Line 518: @@
 ::::Do you see what I'm trying to say here? I hope that helps clarify the purpose of the paragraph. [[User:CeltBrowne|CeltBrowne]] ([[User talk:CeltBrowne|talk]]) 15:35, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 :::::We only include material that we could source sufficiently and appropriately. "I know this material is appropriate even though I can't fully respond to the policy concerns" does not cut it. Your clarification confirms that even the intent behind the paragraph is a violation because none of these sources supports {{tq|claims/language/insinuations}} about Omega's sexual orientation. Our specialized wrestling knowledge cannot and should not determine what we include. Sources do. As fans, yes, we may have picked up hints from consuming the products that Omega's in-universe character has exuded LGBT undertones, but to note how that relates to his actual sexual orientation without sufficient sourcing is just unacceptable. This article does not get to circumvent the BLP policy just because it's a pro wrestling article. You can't convince me otherwise. [[User:KyleJoan|<span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#CD8C95">'''K'''yle'''J'''oan</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:KyleJoan|<span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#8B6969">talk</span>]]</sup> 16:28, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
+::::::''I was 80% into writing this reply when I saw you post on my talk page stating you don't want to keep discussing this. I am still posting the following for the benefit of any other editors joining the discussion, as clarifies the use of some sources, and also introduces some new ones.  ''
+::::::I've never, at any point, suggested the article can violate BLP policy on the basis of it being a pro wrestling article. Previously, I simply said members of the BLP noticeboard may struggle to follow this specific conversation.{{efn|At the time I should have stated that I meant that I thought other editors not familiar with wrestling may find elements/terminology such as "Kenny Omega the character" vs "Kenny Omega the person" confusing}} Those are entirely two separate sentiments. I was and have always been open to other editors being involved in this discussion; in fact in the very first post of this thread I gave a clarification in the opening to help any editors navigate the discussion. For what it's worth, I've left a message on the BLP noticeboard directing them to this discussion.
+::::::You are correct that "Our specialized wrestling knowledge cannot and should not determine what we include. Sources do.", which is why I made a good-faith effort to improve the sourcing of the first sentence with several additional sources, something I'd like to segway into now.
+::::::In your edit summary, one of the reason you gave for removing them was {{tq|the author of the 'Mel' magazine says Omega is openly bisexual; that disqualifies these articles right away}}. However, I have three sources here where all three authors state that Omega is "openly bisexual":
+::::::1. Main-eventer and executive vice president Kenny Omega (real name Tyson Smith) is '''openly bisexual'''.<ref name="Bixenspan">{{cite web |url=https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/pro-wrestling-brand-battle-inclusion-entertainment |title=The New Brand Battle in Pro Wrestling Isn’t Just About Entertainment — It’s About Inclusion |last=Bixenspan |first=David |date=2020 |website= |publisher= |access-date=11 June 2023 |quote=}}</ref>
+::::::2. Omega also brings something unique to wrestling as far as representation goes. He’s '''openly bisexual''' and willing to discuss being so in interviews.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://prowrestling.net/site/2017/08/03/wills-new-thing-falling-love-kenny-omega-far-many-must-watch-matches-two-shane-mcmahon-gifs/ |title=Will’s New Thing – Falling in Love with Kenny Omega, far too many must-watch matches, and two Shane McMahon gifs! |last=Pruett |first=Will |date=3 August 2017 |website=ProWrestling.net |publisher= |access-date=11 June 2023 |quote=}}</ref>{{efn|ProWrestling.Net is considered a reliable source per [[Wikipedia:PW/RS]]}}
+::::::3. This bizarre dynamic plays into the controversy surrounding The Golden Lovers:''' Kenny Omega has come out as bisexual''', and while Kota Ibushi has not discussed his IRL sexuality in public,fans continue to debate his proclivities.<ref name="Shorey for INTO">{{cite web |url=https://www.intomore.com/culture/the-golden-lovers-explained-the-complexities-of-prowrestlings-gayest-tag-team/ |title=The Golden Lovers Explained: The Complexities Of Pro-Wrestling’s Gayest Tag Team |last=Shorey |first=Eric |date=27 May 2018 |website= |publisher= |work=INTO magazine |access-date=11 June 2023 |quote=}}</ref>
+::::::So it seems like rather than being a outright error, there is a minority view amongst some authors that Kenny Omega the person is "openly bisexual". I don't think the sources should be disqualified for expressing a minority view; we can use them and account for the fact that their view on that specific aspect may be a minority one. We're not citing them to suggest Omega the person is bisexual, we're citing the part where they discuss the on-screen romantic relationship between Omega the character and Ibushi the character.
+::::::Another part of your edit summary stated
+::::::{{tq|"major component" is according to Dave Meltzer only, so questionable whether due}}
+::::::Since last night I have come across [https://www.bellmedia.ca/the-lede/press/who-is-kenny-omega-top-five-things-to-know-about-the-most-famous-wrestler-youve-never-heard-of/ this source]. It is a press release from Bell, who funded and help broadcast the documentary. The press release explicitly states that the documentary is covering the implied "romantic relationship" between Omega and Ibushi. I would like to now add this source to the article, and return to the "major component" phrasing as the source explicitly supports that. However, because the preceding sentences were removed, I would have to write something like {{tq|"A major component of the 2019 documentary Omega Man: A Wrestling Love Story was the implied romantic relationship between Omega and Kota Ibushi"}}.
+::::::Now that I have a source explicitly stating a major component of the 2019 documentary was was the implied romantic relationship between Omega and Kota Ibushi, can someone suggest how I can add this information to the article without it being objecting to? Because the term "romantic relationship" was previously removed, I fear readding the term based on this new source will cause issues.
+::::::Finally, to reiterate once again: I am not stating that Tyson Smith the person is definitely bisexual. I am stating that ''on-screen'' Kenny Omega the character and Kota Ibushi have had an implied romantic relationship that was a "storyline" in both DDT and NJPW, and subsequently Tyson Smith the person has been ambiguous about Tyson Smith's sexuality. If you want to cut off the Tyson Smith part, that's whatever. At this point I am simply trying to incorporate the information that ''Kenny Omega the character'' has been, ''on screen'', implied to be in a romantic relationship with Kota Ibushi, in a way that is not objected to.
+::::::===Footnotes===
+::::::{{notelist}}
+::::::===References===
+::::::{{Reflist}} [[User:CeltBrowne|CeltBrowne]] ([[User talk:CeltBrowne|talk]]) 12:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)