User talk:Sundayclose

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January 2023

Hello! Do you really find something like this helpful or constructive when the woman has lived (only) in the USA since 1946? I don't. Hard to find good faith in a thing like that. Looks more like disruption. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:03, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: I think you've been around long enough to know that WP:V is a core policy on Wikipedia. Anything that is not properly sourced can be challenged and removed. I disagree with you that residence, not citizenship, determines whether someone is described as an "American". I was born in the USA and lived in Germany, but if I had a Wikipedia article I should not be described as German-American. I would consider that insulting to Germans. What I don't find helpful is getting a message like yours when I have simply followed Wikipedia policy. I see that you added a source, which I appreciate. You could have simply added the source without leaving me a message. But since it is now sourced, let's leave it at that. Sundayclose (talk) 02:34, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

If you seriously believe that a Swedish-born woman who has lived in America for the last 73 years should be called a Swedish American, I can only continue to object to such nonsense. If you were 8 years old when you moved to Germany and still lived there after 73 years I would definitely call you American German. Please stop doing that kind of non-constructive work! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:46, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: As I said, you added a source. Let's leave it at that. You have no additional reason to be messaging me, so I'll ask you not to do so. And please stop telling me what to do. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 02:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

We all have the right to ask other users to stay away from our talk pages, except when it comes to warnings of this kind. They are a part of the process required of us all to try to discuss a user's behavior & avoid the necessity of administrative review. We cannot ask for administrative review without this kind of interaction first. Thus I just ask: do you intend to continue to do similar work such as removing "American" from "Swedish-American" in the description of an actress who according to her article arrived in the USA when she was 8 and has lived there ever since, for 73 years? If you reply "No" we're done & OK. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 03:11, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: Since you can't seem to get the hint, I am now officially telling you to stay off of my talk page regarding this issue in this section. And that includes responding to this message. You've made your point; you don't need to keep repeating it. If you need a warning, consider this a warning instead of a request. I suggest reading WP:HARASS. I have no obligation to tell you what I "plan to do". If you think I've violated a policy in my past edits (not future edits), please address it at ANI, not here. Thank you. Sundayclose (talk) 03:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

User talk:Hgh1985

Hi Sundayclose, neither is editing other users' userspace a "policy violation" by itself, nor is creating accounts for testing illegitimate by itself (WP:TESTALT). I understand that having to provide advice to the same user again and again can be cumbersome, but that shouldn't lead to factually incorrect statements, I think. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:54, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

("If you simply wanted to use the account for test edits, you need to have the second account deleted. See WP:HOWTODELETE for this process."... This is wrong on so many levels...) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:59, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@ToBeFree: Understood, and thanks. I was trying to help this user from inadvertently getting blocked for use of multiple accounts.That being said, I am correct in instructing the user to disclose the use of multiple accounts. Unfortunately, this user has received a block for abusing multiple accounts, even though I did not make a sockpuppet report. Sundayclose (talk) 23:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

True, true and no worries. Special:Diff/1134771004 was pretty close to a disclosure and they haven't edited since, so I'm not too happy about that block reason. If they appeal the block by simply explaining the situation and promising to clearly disclose any future accounts, either the block reason needs to be corrected or there is no need to keep up the block. An unblock is probably undesirable, though, as I found their talk page via WP:AIV. Exhausting the community's patience seems to be the actual issue. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

They just edited yesterday… 1/20/2023 KaytieKay (talk) 01:44, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

(I am so sorry—please feel free to delete my comment above. It isn’t applicable. I thought we were talking about 80s Sam.! KaytieKay (talk) 07:37, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

80s Sam

I know you’re going to be gone but hopefully you’ll see this. I’m too much of a newbie to warn. Can we just get rid of “80s Sam” already? He just made some idiot changes to Deen Castronovo’s wiki that are incorrect. The info was more accurate before he messed with him, as now he has made Deen a member in bands he was just associated with. (Which is what it said before he messes with it.) Furthermore, I’ve asked some his fans and his social media manager not to edit it so zealously. It was the like the Barbra Streisand effect. The more you try to hide something, the worse it gets. Now I am hesitant to change it back. Because Wikipedia and Google are now even more linked, excessive changes affect the algorithm of what is emphasized when searching for a celebrity. (Their Google knowledge panel.) I work for Meta—hopefully that doesn’t affect your opinion of me. Lol. Before that, I worked for Google. Knowledge panels are a big part of what I do. Not to be all braggy and stuff, but I just felt like I should put some credibility in my rambling. (And I’m SO SO sorry I did. The guy pi$$es me off. 2603:8001:3E00:3CF:5435:32CD:F54F:1640 (talk) 01:31, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I just noticed I wasn’t signed in. Hope I did. Lol. That shows you how new I am. He just edited Deen’s on the 20th so yesterday. KaytieKay (talk) 01:35, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

(I didn’t even know how to reply to this. I probably did it wrong—that’s how new I am.) 😳 KaytieKay (talk) 01:36, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Taxman edit reversion

Thank you for leaving a message on my Talk page. I am replying here as suggested. You reverted my edit to Taxman. I assumed that the the preceding sentence and the links from from 'pound' and 'shilling' in the sentence I added were sufficient verification for the explanation; you obviously disagreed. Normal procedure here would be to add a 'citation needed’ tag, possibly with a message announcing that you’ve added the tag. Reverting is not normally necessary in situations like this, usually being reserved for vandalism and disruptive or bad faith edits: Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary

Also: 'False belief that the WP:Verifiability (WP:V) policy requires citations, much less particular citation formatting, for everything: Example: "Undid addition to discography section; no inline citation.” Policy: WP:V requires inline citations for all quotations and for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, not for all content, and the citations do not otherwise have to be formatted a certain way or be any more detailed than is necessary to identify the source. All content must be verifiable with reliable sources, but an uncontroversial statement is not actually required to be verified with a citation at all unless and until it is controverted.’ Wikipedia:Baby and bathwater

I have followed your suggestion and added a citation to a statement by George Harrison in an interview, which improves the article, so thank you for that, but you might want to consider the points I've raised before reverting a good faith edit in future. BTW - the entire introduction to this article is currently citation free. Robert P Connolly (talk) 10:48, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

@Robert P Connolly: Thanks for your message, and thanks for adding a citation. I didn't say your edit was not done in good faith. WP:V does not require a citation unless an edit is challenged. In that case, a citation is required. In retrospect, I should have simply left a "citation needed" tag instead of reverting, although that is not necessarily "normal procedure". Sundayclose (talk) 16:05, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

School Strike for Climate

I think you made a mistake by restoring the lists of countries and organizations that was added to School Strike for Climate. You stated on LivingOrchid's talk page that they did not provide an adequate explanation of their edit, even though they very clearly did. The portion that they deleted was asserting that almost every single country in the world plus Antarctica supports the school strike, and that it's opposed by several Islamist organizations, with no citations. How does keeping this make the article better? Mounched (talk) 02:25, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

@Mounched: You have a point, and I think adding "citation needed" tags is sufficient for now. If no sources are forthcoming soon, feel free to remove the information. LivingOrchid's reason for removal was that the countries are "not at war" with each other, which makes little sense. Sundayclose (talk) 03:54, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Recent edit on M3GAN

Hi, apologies for my recent statement on M3GAN. I can see you’ve reverted my edit to the article’s current state. I didn’t know what I was thinking when trying to tell readers that they don’t need to know what exactly the titular character was using to kill someone.

There was some IPs that tried to state what was actually used, so I just added in that statement. I just thought that readers wouldn’t have to think of something else.

Again, my apologies. Edwordo13 (talk) 20:43, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

@Edwordo13: No apology needed. Thanks for your message! Sundayclose (talk) 21:01, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Southern American English

Yes, you have made a mistake in reverting my edit to the Southern American English content. I did, in fact, state what the source was. The very map shown in the article from the Atlas of North American English, sources [22][23]. I will be re-adding my revisions accordingly. Estshr (talk) 20:15, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

@Estshr: The map is described as "approximate". And the two maps on which it is based conflict with each other. That makes your edit a synthesized conclusion based on your personal interpretations. You need to cite a reliable source before restoring your edit, for two reasons. First, you violated WP:SYNTH. Second, if an edit is challenged, it either needs a reliable source or consensus on the talk page. Sundayclose (talk) 20:21, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

I added an additional reliable source for my edits. Estshr (talk) 20:33, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Warren G. Harding as a Baptist

I've reverted your edit, but only because I found a rock solid piece of evidence to support the categorization. See the White House's profile on him here, and backed up by this. There's really no convenient place to put this information in the article though. Maybe you can come up with one? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:59, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

@Hammersoft: Sources belong in the article, not my talk page. No place to put it in the article??? That makes no sense. Look at tens of thousands of other articles. You write a sentence that he self-identified as Baptist and cite the sources. Don't restore and expect others to do the work for you. Sundayclose (talk) 20:04, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Can we please back off the negativity please? I asked for your suggestions on place to put the information. It's clear he was a baptist. Removing it outright is wrong. It's not exactly a controversial point, as the White House itself clearly notes his position. Let's improve the article, not template each other with {{uw-unsourced1}}. Thank you. I'm closing the discussion on my talk page, so we can keep it in one place; here. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:07, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

@Hammersoft: I'll back of the negativity when you start complying with WP:V. You been around here many years, long enough to know that core policy. And you're not "improving the article" by violating that policy. And read WP:BURDEN. The responsibility to provide a citation belongs with you, not me or anyone else. Sundayclose (talk) 20:09, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Since you intend on remaining hostile, we're done here. Goodbye. Please don't ping me. I don't need any more hostility in my life. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 20:15, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

@Hammersoft: If you don't want a ping, don't message me. I'm not hostile, just following policy and asking you to do the same, which you apparently feel you have some sort of entitlement that allows you to ignore it, then argue when someone points it out. I agree we're done here; there's was nothing to discuss after my first message above. Have a good day. Sundayclose (talk) 20:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

And despite my request, you ping me anyways. I'll make this note, and leave the rest to you. Accusing me of having an "entitlement" is a personal attack. You have been overtly hostile since the beginning of this. I have no interest in working with people who are so. My entreaty to you was to work forward to find a good place to put it in the article. Instead of trying to be collegial, you've attacked me, templated me, and accused me. I'll give you the same wording you gave me; you've been here long enough to know core policy, specifically in this case WP:NPA. The microphone is all yours. I won't be reading what you reply here, even if you ping me. That's not a moment of me sticking my fingers in my ears and going "la la la la la", but rather I refuse to work with people who are overtly hostile. I hope you have a nice day. Goodbye. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:29, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

I added the sentence in question to Harding's article, with a source, and added an associated category. Moving on.... —ADavidB 20:35, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

@Hammersoft: As I've already said, if you want me to stop pinging you, stop messaging me. Yet another example of you thinking you're allowed to do things that the rest of us are not allowed to do. And if you consider that a personal attack, report me, but you might want to read WP:BOOMERANG first and think about your multiple violations of WP:V and your repeated accusations of my hostility just because I asked you to follow that policy. Someone else did your work for you by adding a source. I suppose you'll call that a personal attack. I never expected you to read anything I ping you about. But when you repeatedly message me, it's obvious that you are, in fact, reading it. Now, that will be my last ping unless you decide to drag this out even more. But my suggestion is drop the stick and move on. Sundayclose (talk) 16:19, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

reply and apolgies as I was trying to head off confusion

I'm old enough to remember the AmEng versus BritEng pronunciation confusion happening with Meg Griffin of Family Guy when fansites and episode guides made in the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth of Nations invariably listed her first name as "Meghan" instead of the correct Megan. AUSPOLLIE (talk) 22:37, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Addition to Catholic Church Sexual Assault

I added a section about the sexual assaults in Lebanon, and I have added several citations about what happened (some of them are of course in Arabic since it happened in Lebanon), why has it been removed?? 77.246.75.81 (talk) 13:56, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Did you bother to actually read the warnings I gave you? Some of what you wrote is unsourced or poorly sourced, and when you are referring to living people that is absolutely forbidden on Wikipedia. The entire section is very poorly written. And you added your own commentary, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. Don't attempt to restore the material until you make suggested edits on the article's talk page and wait for others to respond. Read WP:BRD and WP:CON. Making poorly sourced edits against WP:BLP policy can very quickly result in loss of editing privileges. And don't edit or comment on talk pages while you're signed out of your account. It's confusing and against Wikipedia policy. Sundayclose (talk) 14:07, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

The Beatles

hey, you recently removed by edit on The Beatles page, saying that the citation is a dead link. I cross checked and the link is working for me. please recheck the link: https://www.billboard.com/charts/greatest-of-all-time-artists/ Bhkkbey250 (talk) 05:42, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

You must provide the quotation of your claim

"And all quotation". In other words: I cant just say the constitution says something without providing proof along with its quotation where it states what your claiming specifically. Neither you or the op did such. Hence our current circumstances. PaUZz LYte (talk) 15:38, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

"Its content is determined by previously published information rather than editors' beliefs, opinions, or experiences". Your welcome and have a good one! PaUZz LYte (talk) 15:44, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@PaUZz LYte: I did, on the article's talk page. You just didn't take the time to look, as usual. Don't message me about this again; take it to the article's talk page. If you are tempted to ignore that request, consider it a warning and read WP:HARASS. Sundayclose (talk) 15:48, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Velvet Underground Timelime

you removed the timeline from the band members section yet it is simply a graphical representation of the info in the band members section. Why not just leave it with the notice of that you want a source? Mighty Midas (talk) 15:33, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

@Mighty Midas: Please review WP:V, a core policy of Wikipedia. The Members section has been unsourced for years. That's a sufficient reason to remove the timeline. It would not be a policiy violation to remove the Members section also, but I'm willing to wait a while before I do that. I requested sources there. It is impossible to remove part of a timeline, although part of the Members section can be removed if it is not sourced in a timely manner. If you would like to restore the timeline, feel free to add the sources to the Members section (for which I would be grateful), but don't restore the timeline without sources. My experience is that citation requests in band articles go unresolved for a very long time, too long to leave an unsourced timeline. Fans love to add content, but they're not always very good at providing sources. The timeline will always be available in the edit history and easy to restore when sources are supplied. Sundayclose (talk) 15:44, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, most band members sections go unsourced. I will look to see what sourced band members sections use and try and find some for the velvet underground. Thanks for getting back to me Mighty Midas (talk) 15:50, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello

Kinda wanted to apologize for the shit I spewed up earlier this morning. Not really the best guy and I let myself get into arguments that probably get me nowhere. I do apologize how I acted. Anyways. Thanks. Good day A.R.M. 00:32, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

@ARMcgrath: I've certainly found myself doing that kind of thing on occasion. All the best! Sundayclose (talk) 01:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Re:April 2023.

Pardon, but OK? The source is reliable and is literally mentioned with the proper template in the text. 37.100.233.58 (talk) 19:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Some advice

WP:BURDEN notes editors may object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references. That's going to have to be me right now. The category was introduced only two days ago; I pointed to the existing sources at Need-blind admission, promised you that I would add content to the articles with them, and asked for a bit of patience given the large task; and you can check my edit history to see that I've been actively doing so since then. Reverting the batch with the inaccurate summary Editor is taking their time fixing this problem was an unnecessarily aggressive move, of a piece with your argumentative comments at my talk page.

Overall, I think you will have an easier time on Wikipedia if you approach editing in a bit more of a collegial manner. Personally, when editors add seemingly helpful but unsourced material, the first part of my comment to them is always to thank them for the contribution before even asking for a source, recognizing that Wikipedia is a work in progress where incremental improvements are helpful. The next time you encounter a similar situation, I think if you begin that way, and frame your ask in a less demanding way that respects that we are all volunteers, you will find others are a lot more amenable to help. Regards, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:09, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

@Sdkb: You added the category indiscriminately to dozens of articles in a matter of minutes with little regard to whether the article supported the category, then you expected me (twice) to do the work for you in providing sources and/or identify the articles without sources, then you distorted interpretation of WP:BURDEN to again try to shirk your responsibility. I desperately tried to be "collegial" in my communications with you, to no avail. You created a mess and only decided to creep forward fixing it after I repeatedly pushed you. And until you make fixing the mess as much of a priority as you did creating it, I'll remove the category without any apology to you. Stay off of my talk page if all you want to do is offer useless "advice", and that includes a response to this message. If you are tempted to ignore that request, consider it a warning. Instead, spend a few minutes cleaning up the mess. Sundayclose (talk) 21:38, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Please carefully check your edits

At Untitled Beetlejuice sequel you reverted me without checking the sources about filming. The sources Collider and Variety clearly say filming began on May 10.

Collider states in 13th para under the section : "Following the initial reports that Beetlejuice 2, we also got an estimate on when the project is looking to begin filming. The film will begin production on Wednesday, May 10, 2023, in the UK. That being said, with the ongoing WGA strike, there is a chance that filming will be paused, but as of right now Warner Bros seems to be intent on moving forward regardless of the Strike."

Variety says: "There’s little information available about the follow-up to Tim Burton’s 1988 film about a pesky poltergeist, but the filmmaker is returning with Michael Keaton as Beetlejuice and Winona Ryder as Lydia Deetz. Additional cast members include “Wednesday” star Jenna Ortega as the daughter of Ryder’s character, as well as Justin Theroux in a yet-to-be-revealed role. Production is expected to commence in London on May 10."

Neither says late May or early June. Linkin Prankster (talk) 15:22, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

@Linkin Prankster: No, the sources don't say filming began (your word) on May 10. They say will begin and expected to commence. Wikipedia does not use its voice to predict the future. Read WP:NFF and WP:CRYSTAL. Films sometimes delay or cancel production for various reasons, and neither your nor I know whether that will happen. The problem isn't that I didn't check my edit. You didn't completely represent what the sources say, nor did you look at my previous edit summaries which clearly explain. But that's OK, I probably wasn't very clear either. What we really is need a source clearly indicating that filming actually began on May 10, not that it was expected to begin. In the mean time, I just changed your edit to reflect that filming is expected to begin on May 10, which more accurately reflects what the sources say. Please don't change that and we should be OK. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 16:04, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

That is okay but you you didn't even read the sources before reverting me. They never said early May or late June. Linkin Prankster (talk) 16:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I've undone your revert of another user on Beetlejuice restoring the Untitled Beetlejuice sequel link. When the article is created, then it will be appropriate to add it. Until then it serves no purpose asides from confusing the reader. Linkin Prankster (talk) 14:02, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

@Linkin Prankster: Thanks for the message. I disagree that it serves no purpose, but this one is not worth arguing about. Hopefully the draft will become an article soon and it will be a moot point. Sundayclose (talk) 14:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Mattea

Do you have RS where she states that she prefers they/them pronouns? GLAAD uses she/her pronouns for Mattea Roach, and they should know.

MOS:GENDERID is clear: Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person, waiter/waitress/server) that reflect the person's most recent expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources.

We need Mattea's own words, her/their "SELF-identification", not what others say about it (I know there are a couple sources that say she uses they/their), even if it's RS. We need Mattea's own words in RS. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:27, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Valjean: Thanks for the message. I'm aware of MOS:GENDERID as well as WP:BLPCAT. Read her article, which uses they/them: Mattea Roach. I simply made my edit consistent with her article. If you want to challenge her use of pronouns, it's best to do so at her article. If it's changed there I'll change my edit for consistency. By the way, when she plays Jeopardy the host consistently uses "they/them", although I'm not sure if that's considered a reliable source. But that's how I found out, then I checked her article. I don't have much doubt, but at this point I don't have time to search for a source. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 13:07, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Only took a minute to find this. Feel free to add to her article. Sundayclose (talk) 13:13, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

As I mentioned, I'm aware of a couple sources, including that one, which say Mattea prefers they/them pronouns, but so far no one has produced RS where Mattea states that she/they prefers they/them pronouns, not even evidence that Mattea uses them about herself. That's what we need. The changes at the Mattea Roach article are made by editors who openly admit they are using OR, and I have disputed that violation of OR policy. We've been discussing the issue, but once I was personally attacked on the talk page, I withdrew from the discussion. Some people there are strongly personally invested in forcing this change. I don't care either way. For example, I'm personally fine with using she/her pronouns for Amy Schneider. Those who advocate the change even muddy the waters by using our way of dealing with transgender persons, but there is no evidence Mattea is trans. Mattea identifies as lesbian. When I have stated Mattea is not trans, I have been accused of being transphobic, which is a nasty personal attack.

To follow policy, we need SELF-identification. No one has been able to produce evidence of such, so the current use of they/them pronouns for Mattea in our articles is against policy. The fact that some other sources do so is irrelevant to the question of SELF-identification, and I find it rather compelling that GLAAD doesn't do it. The most we could do is use attribution and state that "these sources claim Mattea prefers they/them pronouns", but we can't do it ourselves by using OR and violating MOS:GENDERID. It's also a BLP violation as it's an unsourced change. Unsourced controversial BLP content must be removed immediately.

We need to be able to separate what a few other sources do and what we do. Those sources are not bound by our PAG. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:32, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Valjean: I respect your opinion, but here's my opinion. If a reliable source states, "Roach uses they/them pronouns", that's sufficient. I don't think we need a source that explicitly states, "Mattea says, 'We use they/them pronouns'." I think that stringent requirement would eliminate many people with articles unnecessarily. If a source is reliable, it can be trusted to provide accurate information without a direct quotation from the person. Some people who use they/them don't see the need to do so as long as their wishes are properly represented by a source. If I used they/them and the New York Times said I do so, that would be sufficient. I don't have to explicitly be quoted in an article saying, "I use they/them pronouns." Just as it would be sufficient if the NYT stated that I'm Catholic or Jewish, gay or straight, white or a person of color, butcher, baker, or candlestick maker. We trust reliable sources to get it right. If someone finds another reliable source that disputes it, that would be a different matter. Thanks again for bringing all of this to my attention. Sundayclose (talk) 18:05, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

You write: "If I used they/them and the New York Times said I do so, that would be sufficient."

I agree: "If Mattea used they/them about themself and The New York Times said that Mattea did so, that would be sufficient," but we have no evidence that Mattea does that. I have asked for evidence and no one has provided it. Some others use those pronouns for Mattea, but we don't have evidence that she does or that she has said anything about it. Right now OR speculation rules here, and some editors want to force anyone, even CISgender gays and lesbians, to use they/them pronouns, even if there is no evidence they are non-binary or transgender. Not every lesbian wants to use they/them pronouns. Yes, we know that CISgender people can be non-binary, but without any evidence to the contrary, we just treat them as we always have. "Cisgender people may or may not conform to gender norms and stereotypes associated with their gender identity." Around here, we use the pronouns which they use to describe themselves. If there is no suspicion in RS they are non-binary, a sex assigned at birth boy is called he and a sex assigned at birth girl is called she. Isn't that still true? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:42, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I think this is a matter of OR, BLP, and attribution.

1. OR is violated when an editor's own conclusions, common sense, and counting of uses of they/them or she/her on a website (like Jeopardy!), is substituted for actual RS.
2. BLP is violated when an editor inserts unsourced and contentious descriptions without proper sourcing.
3. Attribution is involved when we attribute statements to the authors, such as "Trudy Ring of The Advocate writes that "Mattea Roach, a writer and podcaster from Toronto, who is queer and uses they/them pronouns,..."[1] That is generally acceptable practice for documenting opinions, but not facts. It's a fact that Trudy Ring is of that opinion. We use such attributed statements when an actual self-description is lacking, but it does not meet our policy requirement for how we act here, especially because it's a BLP matter.

What is lacking is her actual SELF-description.

This leaves us with a conundrum because, according to the requirement for a self-description, we are currently violating OR and BLP. Should we start a centralized discussion somewhere? We need to clear this up and change our policy requirement for a self-description (with consequent serious BLP issues to follow). -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:24, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Valjean: Well, thanks for your opinion. I just happen to disagree with some of it. To me, if a very reliable source (such as the NY Times, or the source I cite above) says that Roach uses they/them, that's sufficient. Requiring a quotation from her about her pronoun preference is too restrictive and would drastically change the landscape of what's acceptable on Wikipedia and, in effect, not reflect the individual's preference. Wikipedia generally accepts what reliable sources say, including for BLP issues. If a reliable source reports it, that's all that's needed unless someone legitimately challenges the reliable source. My two cents. I haven't looked into this very much, but I think a definitive conclusion about not accepting reliable sources to verify self-identification needs a consensus at WT:BLP rather than thrashing it out one article at a time. I certainly would respect a clear consensus there. Sundayclose (talk) 23:00, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Sundayclose. You have new messages at JeffSpaceman's talk page.
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JeffSpaceman (talk) 21:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

WKRP

Thank you for your thanks! Sorry it was a revert at first before I added the link, as I was feeling lazy! All the best & have a great weekend! Stereorock (talk) 15:49, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Plot summary of The Kingdom

Sundayclose, your trimming of the plot summary of The Kingdom (film) was well-intended, but misguided. You want to trim the plot of to avoid plot bloat, that's fine. But not in such a drastic matter like you did on it. We got to keep what was written. Find anything that is should be trimmed down and keep anything that is important and take it from there. BattleshipMan (talk) 03:46, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@BattleshipMan: It was far beyond the 700 word limit. And in case you didn't know, Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Feel free to trim it yourself, but keep in under 700 words. Or get consensus to keep it as long as it is. Otherwise don't criticize a good faith effort. It's easy to criticize; that probably took you less than a minute. Improving Wikipedia takes a little effort, not knee-jerk criticisms. Sundayclose (talk) 13:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@Sundayclose: Reducing the huge amount of plot summary that size isn't helpful either. If you want to trim it down, you leave it as is and get someone else who can do that with such drastic reduction of plot summary or whatever else you want to do. BattleshipMan (talk) 13:44, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@BattleshipMan: I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but what part of "trim it yourself" do you not understand. As I said, otherwise get consensus on the talk page to violate WP:PLOTBLOAT, which is just as valid as WP:STATUSQUO. Sundayclose (talk) 13:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@Sundayclose: Let's find some way to a create a resolution here. Trimming it down that plot summary that extreme isn't helpful in my book. I find trimming down the plot summary without removing that amount of plot material easier because it helps keep anything essential and helps the summary flow better. BattleshipMan (talk) 13:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@BattleshipMan: The solution is simple. You can trim it down to 700 words. You don't have to do it today. Wikipedia is always a work in progress. Again, I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but if you don't want to put any effort into improving the article, either get consensus for the old version or move on. I'm sure we both have more important things to do. In the time you have spent repeatedly messaging me, you could have spent some time rewriting the plot summary. I not rehashing this endlessly. It's up to you if you want to try to improve the article, but there's no point in sending me the same message again and again. Sundayclose (talk) 13:55, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@BattleshipMan: Reducing the plot summary to the size you did won't don't any good for me to get it down to 700 words. I'm going to get someone else to help out with this. BattleshipMan (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@BattleshipMan: If you have nothing new to say, I'm finished on this topic. Thanks for your messages. Sundayclose (talk) 14:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Disclosure, Battleshipman did ask for my input on my talk page. I used wordcounter.com and it comes out as 673 words so it is below the limit, the tag appears to be from when it was 1400 words. I am happy to give it a once over once I finish work to tighten it up but it being one long paragraph isn't appropriate or very readable or aesthetically interesting. Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 14:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@Darkwarriorblake: Thanks for your message. I have no problem with anyone else editing the plot summary, as long as it doesn't exceed 700 words. Sundayclose (talk) 14:16, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Kesc4399

Hi Sundayclose, just to make sure the ping doesn't fail – your input would be welcome at Kesc4399's talk page. I'm sorry for the annoyance this may cause especially given your request for them not to message you again, but the annoyance of eventually having to argue at ANI for a block would probably have been greater. Thanks and best regards, ~ ToBeFree (talk) 05:57, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

@ToBeFree: Done. You haven't annoyed me. Kesc4399's unending walls of useless text exhaust me, which is why I told him to message me on the article talk page, not here. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 15:46, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Melungeons

Walter Plecker's orginial 1943 list of surnames, including the Tennessee Melungeons, should be cited on this page in full for better comprehension as to how the term has been used in history. StephanieTree (talk) 17:43, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Why did you erase my valid source ciations for Walter Plecker's 1943 list and Will Allen Dromgoole's depiction of Calloway Collins? — Preceding unsigned comment added by StephanieTree (talk • contribs) 18:12, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Spider-Man does have superhuman speed

I read the Spider-Man comics where he is said to have mentioned in some comics that his superhuman speed, is called "proportionate speed of a spider" and "spider-speed", you know that Spider-Man does have proportionate speed of a spider, not just agility. I have links to share this topic to you; https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/The-Spectacular-Spider-Man-1976/Issue-87?id=19204, https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/The-Amazing-Spider-Man-1963/Issue-40?id=4008, and https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Amazing-Fantasy-1962/Issue-15. This is the site called "readcomiconline" I read those and it's free, so ok, I'll never to editing war or repeat things back, but I can discuss this topic to you in Spider-Man talk page. But I have evidence where these Spider-Man comic books explain that Spider-Man really does have superhuman speed.