Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language: Difference between revisions
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== Mandarin apostrophe question == |
== Mandarin apostrophe question == |
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Since 2012, China's government has allowed ''nü'' and ''lü'' to be written as ''nyu'' and ''lyu'' |
Since 2012, China's government has allowed ''nü'' and ''lü'' to be written as ''nyu'' and ''lyu'' in the "diacritic-unfriendly" environment of passports. When these variants are used, is there any provision for how a sequence like ''hanyu'' from ''hanü''? Would one or the other be written ''han'yu'' or ''ha'nyu''? Or is this problem considered marginal enough to simply be ignored? [[User:Lazar Taxon|Lazar Taxon]] ([[User talk:Lazar Taxon|talk]]) 02:25, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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July 2
Hype
OP is a banned user |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This news report [1] begins: Last summer the UK posted a new record temperature as the mercury tipped above 40C for the first time in history. Now, in a chilling prediction, experts have said this could soon be much more common. The use of the word "chilling" in the context seems counter-intuitive. Is there a word for this kind of metaphor? 2A00:23A8:0:3D01:B146:4391:37DC:D954 (talk) 11:21, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
|
July 3
75
We have the wonderful words septuagenarian and octogenarian for people who make it to 70 and 80 respectively. Is there an equivalent word for someone who gets to three quarters of a century? Would the amateur neologists here care to invent one? Asking for a friend. HiLo48 (talk) 02:16, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- The word for 3/4ths was "dodrans", so maybe a "dodranticentenarian"? AnonMoos (talk) 02:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- What do you know, Wikipedia even has an article on Dodrans... AnonMoos (talk) 02:36, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- P.S. The "distributive" form of the number 75 in Latin would be "septuageni quini", but it's not obvious to me how to combine these into a single word... AnonMoos (talk) 02:49, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- Quini-viceni is Latin for "twenty-five each",[3] so I suppose a distributive form of 75 could be "quini-septuageni". Note that quinisextus is formed from quinque + sextus, so the ancient Romans were not adverse to the quinification of quinque in non-distributive uses either. (However, while the distributive form has quīnī-, which is presumably declined in tandem with septuāgēnī, the second use has a presumably invariant quīni-.) As to coining a conceivable English word, I suggest "quiniseptuagenarian". --Lambiam 15:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- P.S. The "distributive" form of the number 75 in Latin would be "septuageni quini", but it's not obvious to me how to combine these into a single word... AnonMoos (talk) 02:49, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- What do you know, Wikipedia even has an article on Dodrans... AnonMoos (talk) 02:36, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- semisesquicentennarian or demisesquicentennarian (from semisesquicentennial), or possibly hemi-... Mitch Ames (talk) 07:55, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- Probably "-centenarian" without a doubled consonant would be preferred. "Demi" is French and "Hemi" is Greek; they appear in certain names of musical notes, but I don't see that they would add anything to Latin "Semi" here... AnonMoos (talk) 08:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Belafonte "Drink this Wedding Toast"
The above is not the song title. LP gives song title so: WILL HIS LOVE BE LIKE HIS RUM. Pronoun capitalization makes it look like a hymn. How shall we capitalize? Temerarius (talk) 16:30, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- "Will His Love Be like His Rum". See MOS:TITLECAPS, where His is specifically given as an example of a pronoun that should be capped. (Like serves as a preposition in the title, so under the "five-letter rule" it shouldn't be capped.) Hymns have nothing to do with the matter. Deor (talk) 16:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- I should have said, Wikipedia's odd guide aside, I intend it as a general question of best style. My supposition about implications of a deity are reflective of a tradition of style, not my invention. My first impulse is to render "Will his Love Be like his Rum?" Temerarius (talk) 20:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- I know of no style for titles (except for those that use sentence-style capitalization) that would lowercase his. If you search for the title on the Internet, most places capitalize every word in this title. Deor (talk) 21:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- If it's stylized with all words capitalized, then so it should be here. But Wikipedians know better, right? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:06, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- Not necessarily "better", but we do have a Manual of Style into which a good deal of thought has gone, which is more than most sites on the Internet have. And many of of the "most places" I referred to above are hardly reliable sources (lyrics sites, etc.). Deor (talk) 23:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't trust lyric sites, which often have errors in the lyrics, never mind questionable spelling. But imposing our so-called Manual of Style to override the way a song title is actually spelled is arrogant. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Spelling shouldn't be changed: The Young Visiters, The New Rythum, etc. But the ability to cite the authority of the so-called Manual of Style for overriding shouty (or goofy) capitalization (or other "styling") of titles and names is, for me, one of the greatest attractions of the said Manual of Style. -- Hoary (talk) 05:47, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Because we know better than the ones who actually titled these things. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:05, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- It was presented in all caps.[4] DO YOU REALLY THINK WIKIPEDIA SHOULD FOLLOW SUIT? Note, though, that the song title includes a question mark, as it should. --Lambiam 10:03, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedians know best. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:41, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- It was presented in all caps.[4] DO YOU REALLY THINK WIKIPEDIA SHOULD FOLLOW SUIT? Note, though, that the song title includes a question mark, as it should. --Lambiam 10:03, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Because we know better than the ones who actually titled these things. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:05, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Spelling shouldn't be changed: The Young Visiters, The New Rythum, etc. But the ability to cite the authority of the so-called Manual of Style for overriding shouty (or goofy) capitalization (or other "styling") of titles and names is, for me, one of the greatest attractions of the said Manual of Style. -- Hoary (talk) 05:47, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't trust lyric sites, which often have errors in the lyrics, never mind questionable spelling. But imposing our so-called Manual of Style to override the way a song title is actually spelled is arrogant. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Not necessarily "better", but we do have a Manual of Style into which a good deal of thought has gone, which is more than most sites on the Internet have. And many of of the "most places" I referred to above are hardly reliable sources (lyrics sites, etc.). Deor (talk) 23:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- If you search on the internet, you find databases that are capitalized by algorithm. Temerarius (talk) 18:49, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- If it's stylized with all words capitalized, then so it should be here. But Wikipedians know better, right? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:06, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- I know of no style for titles (except for those that use sentence-style capitalization) that would lowercase his. If you search for the title on the Internet, most places capitalize every word in this title. Deor (talk) 21:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- I should have said, Wikipedia's odd guide aside, I intend it as a general question of best style. My supposition about implications of a deity are reflective of a tradition of style, not my invention. My first impulse is to render "Will his Love Be like his Rum?" Temerarius (talk) 20:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
July 4
How do we know the pronunciation of Ancient Greek?
(edited for spoilers) How exactly do we know how the Ancient Greek language was pronounced at the time of Ancient Greece? There obviously are no surviving audio recordings. JIP | Talk 10:22, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- For a nice small book on the subject which is not too technical if you know basic terminology and phonetic notation, see "Vox Graeca" by W. Sidney Allen. AnonMoos (talk) 10:31, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- You can "borrow" this book to read online at archive.org here. You have to open a free account with them first, but it's quite painless. Alansplodge (talk) 15:11, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- P.S. There have been several conventional English "classroom" pronunciations of Greek over the centuries (see Pronunciation of Ancient Greek in teaching), but they have almost never attempted to get pitch-accent or aspirated consonants correct. Not pronouncing the Greek alphabet vowel letters with sound-values that would reflect medieval Greek vowel mergers and/or English Great Vowel Shift changes has been considered more than accurate enough for the classroom... -- AnonMoos (talk) 10:44, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Ancient_Greek_phonology#Reconstruction should answer the question. --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:45, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
Right and right and right
In Exile by Michael P. Kube-McDowell I've encountered the standalone sentence "Right and right and right". Seemingly simple, but can't understand what it conveys. The sentence starts a new paragraph rather than following from the previous context, so I'm not sure whether it's "alright", "being very right", etc. What does it mean? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 14:23, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Can you post more of the sentence? Without context I can think of two things. First three right turns, such as on the map, taking in four sides of a block. Or for emphasis – "being very right" maybe - though that's more clumsy grammatically. --92.40.33.166 (talk) 14:48, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Or a rhetorical device called epizeuxis or maybe diacope. Alansplodge (talk) 14:51, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- The context is this:
Give me the weaving houses, the crop barns, the share shops, they said, where the work is the same every day and a man can find camaraderie with his own kind. If I must do sun work, let me be a gateman, a greenhand, a builder—let me be someone with a place in the making of something from nothing, a little touch of the woman's magic.
Right and right and right. The call list was never shorter than ten days full for the carts in my circle. A toolman started under brown, dusty dawn, finished in the ocher dusk, and was alone for the hours between. One day's calls could scatter you to every corner of your cluster, and other clusters beyond if you were skilled and your specialty in demand.- To me it just seems that the protagonist is agreeing with what "they" said. He lists a number of unpleasant things about his job of "toolman", which is presumably the unpleasant, unrewarding form of "sun work" (these are all in-universe terms, the book is sci-fi). Then a paragraph or two later he reveals that this is only superficial agreement, and really he is of the opposite opinion:
But all of those complaints were secret joys for me. [...] The solitude of the toolman was a blessing [...] My routine was built on novelty, and the problems that awaited me as often required me to apply my mind as my tools.
- Extra thought: the repetition is because there are multiple points to agree with. Card Zero (talk) 16:07, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
Emphasising the quantity of something
Immagine the sentence "They have seven children." I want to emphasise they have such a great number of children, what adverbs could I use in the sentence to do so? Wikipediæ philosophia (talk) 20:50, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- "They profligately have seven children" ? MinorProphet (talk) 22:17, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- In Italian, my native tongue, we can say that sentence as such: "Hanno ben sette figli." The word ben you see in italics is an adverb which emphasises the quantity of children they have, but it can be omitted if we don't want to emphasise.
- That word doesn't apply only to children, it can apply for any countable noun if there's a numeral adjective right after the adverb.
- Let's make another example:
- "Ho prodotto ben 100 kg di farina."
- "I have produced 100 kg of flour."
- Does English language have an adverb with a similar function as Italian word ben? Wikipediæ philosophia (talk) 22:46, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Honestly, in modern idiomatic English, the closest you're likely to get is, unfortunately, like. "They have seven children" reads as a bland statement of fact; "They have like, seven children" has an air of faint disbelief at the quantity, as well as an undercurrent of the quantity being of such magnitude that it requires approximation. Apologies to all my English teachers. Folly Mox (talk) 23:12, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- ARRRGH!! Alansplodge (talk) 08:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Honestly, in modern idiomatic English, the closest you're likely to get is, unfortunately, like. "They have seven children" reads as a bland statement of fact; "They have like, seven children" has an air of faint disbelief at the quantity, as well as an undercurrent of the quantity being of such magnitude that it requires approximation. Apologies to all my English teachers. Folly Mox (talk) 23:12, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- 'exceptionally' ("they exceptionally have seven children")? Note 'exceptionally' can mean exceptionally many, or few, i.e. it doesn't just imply a great number. I struggle to think of a better word. One reason perhaps is in English it's generally not polite to criticise on someone else's choice over how many children they have. So you would just say "they have seven children", and not add phrasing to imply it's [too] great a number. --92.40.33.166 (talk) 22:59, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- If you accept an adverbial phrase, I posit: "They have no less than seven children". -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Jack's phrase is very similar to Italian "niente meno di". Hanno niente meno di sette figli. However, the adverb ben can be used in more formal contexts.
- Just to conclude:
- In Italian we have other adverbial phrases like
- "Hanno fatto la bellezza di zero riforme." (sometimes used ironically, like in this example)
- (lit. "They have made the beauty of zero reforms.) Wikipediæ philosophia (talk) 23:25, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Some sticklers for style might prefer, "They have no fewer than seven children". --Lambiam 23:52, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- That is always correct, and in most cases preferred. But I think "no less than ..." is a kind of stock expression, like "more or less", and it can be applied to countable things. Or am I defending the indefensible here? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:46, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Historically, it is the prescriptivist position that tends to be on the losing end, as in the issue of the split infinitive and the use of which in restrictive clauses. If even a renowned linguistic curmudgeon uses a once condemned diction without qualms, it is here to stay. --Lambiam 10:36, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Never mind the grammar,
no fewer than seven
is not precise, because it does not tell us whether they have 7, 8, 9 or more (none of which are fewer than seven) more children . Mitch Ames (talk) 11:28, 5 July 2023 (UTC)- Au contraire, it means exactly, precisely seven. "No fewer/less than" is an intensifier, not to be read literally. It is not a synonym of "at least". -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:35, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- That is always correct, and in most cases preferred. But I think "no less than ..." is a kind of stock expression, like "more or less", and it can be applied to countable things. Or am I defending the indefensible here? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:46, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- The Flying Fickle Finger of Fate points to "fecundly". Clarityfiend (talk) 23:38, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- In Dutch one can say, "Ze hebben maar liefst zeven kinderen." --Lambiam 23:57, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- "They have seven freakin' children! Count 'em! Seven!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:43, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Seven is not that many. It's actually the average number in Niger. Shantavira|feed me 08:28, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Apparently it seems like "many" to the OP. Now, if the OP had said seventeen, then you'd definitely have "many". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Also, they made clear that the inquiry was about any case of a numeral followed by a countable noun. The sentence could have been, "They have ??? seven children who became famous YouTubers in their early teens" (also exceptional in Niger), or "The world-record holder ate ??? 103 hamburgers in eight minutes". --Lambiam 10:49, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Apparently it seems like "many" to the OP. Now, if the OP had said seventeen, then you'd definitely have "many". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Some other possibilities:
- They have as many as seven children
- They have an astonishing seventeen children
- They have an amazing seventeen children
- They have an impressive seven children
- They have a whopping seven children (something people might say but not necessarily write ... though quite a lot of people actually have written it)
- etc. Andreas JN466 12:35, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- The number speaks for itself [5] (at 0:23). 78.146.99.84 (talk) 13:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
July 5
Word meaning that the art (poem, song, book) is about itself
I used "self-referencing" for this, but I would like to know if there is a better word. I am referring to a poem or song or book (or even a movie - whatever the end product might be) that is about the creation of that work. A silly poem example:
- I am trying to write a poem, but I cannot rhyme
- My teacher just told me to keep trying and I will work it out in time
This is a poem that is about writing the poem itself. This happens in songs as well. Chicago's "25 or 6 to 4" is about writing the specific song "25 or 6 to 4." Also, Deep Purple's "Smoke on the Water" is about going to a hotel to record a new song, but it burns down, so they go to a studio, but get kicked out, so they find a house and set it up to record the new song which turns out to be "Smoke on the Water." Something like AC/DC's "It's a Long Way to the Top" or Nickelback's "Rockstar" are not part of this group because they are about the general concept of being in a band, making music, and touring around. They are not specifically about writing that specific song.
If this makes sense, is there a word that means the work of art is purely about creating that specific word of art? I feel that self-referencing is too vague. Deadpool comics (and movies) are often self-referencing, but they are not specifically about writing the comics.
Talking to coworkers here in the library, I realized that there is another clarification. The book "Outsiders" is self-referencing in that the story ends with the main character writing the story. So, the story is about writing the story in a sense. But, it is fiction. I am referring to non-fiction. The examples I gave of "25 or 6 to 4" and "Smoke on the Water" are not fiction. The events described in the lyrics are what actually happened while artists wrote those songs and refer to the process they went through to write those songs. The author of "Outsiders" was not a teen boy from Oklahoma in the 50s. So, it isn't about her actual process of writing the story. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 13:26, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- "Self-describing" might be a good start... AnonMoos (talk) 15:33, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Meta- ? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Self referential. Cullen328 (talk) 16:27, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- "Self-reflexive" is another option. Wikipedia has Category:Self-reflexive works, but no article. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 16:33, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Meta- ? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Self-referential, meta, breaking the fourth wall. Nardog (talk) 16:36, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Self-referential is just a different way of stating self-referencing which is where I began. Meta is transcendent. The examples described do not trancend anything. Breaking the fourth wall refers to methods in which the audience is directly addressed, which does not happen in any of the examples I gave. I feel that I have terribly failed to properly describe the question. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 17:04, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Those may be the core definitions, but meta is used for anything that's about itself, and breaking the fourth wall for anything that brings attention to its own creation. Nardog (talk) 17:11, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- I was asked if I was sort of talking about an autobiography. I think that is closer than "self-referential." If you take it a bit further. What if I wrote an autobiography, but only included my work in writing the autobiography? Nothing before it. Just writing about writing the book. My goal is to exclude related things that fall under the larger umbrella of self-referencing or meta or breaking the fourth wall etc... 97.82.165.112 (talk) 19:58, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- You're talking about something so specific that it is unlikely that you'll find a word that refers to that and nothing else. "Self-describing" and "self-reflexive" are probably your best options. I guess you could try to stretch the meaning of "autological", but think you're better served with one of the former. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 20:51, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- If you're not liking "self-describing" or "self-reflexive", you could try a generous conceptual extension of Quine. Folly Mox (talk) 20:52, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Our computer guy suggested "recursive" because it is an act of describing the act that is being described. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 22:48, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- I used to be a computer person, and to my mind while recursion can technically terminate after a single step, it implies a more ongoing process. It also feels a little more function oriented, like the act of writing a song about writing the song you're writing could be described as a recursive process (generously), but you don't really end up with a recursive song. Folly Mox (talk) 00:24, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Our computer guy suggested "recursive" because it is an act of describing the act that is being described. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 22:48, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- I was asked if I was sort of talking about an autobiography. I think that is closer than "self-referential." If you take it a bit further. What if I wrote an autobiography, but only included my work in writing the autobiography? Nothing before it. Just writing about writing the book. My goal is to exclude related things that fall under the larger umbrella of self-referencing or meta or breaking the fourth wall etc... 97.82.165.112 (talk) 19:58, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Those may be the core definitions, but meta is used for anything that's about itself, and breaking the fourth wall for anything that brings attention to its own creation. Nardog (talk) 17:11, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Self-referential is just a different way of stating self-referencing which is where I began. Meta is transcendent. The examples described do not trancend anything. Breaking the fourth wall refers to methods in which the audience is directly addressed, which does not happen in any of the examples I gave. I feel that I have terribly failed to properly describe the question. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 17:04, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- 97.82.165.112 -- Self-describing is not necessarily the same as self-referential (my point at the beginning). AnonMoos (talk) 23:37, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- I thought that You're So Vain might be in a category that would answer your question, but no such luck. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:30, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Similarly, George Harrison's "This Song" has no obvious category to fit the OP's question. But it's fair to say that any song that contains the phrase "this song", qualifies as self-referential. Also the Carpenters' "A Song for You". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:19, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- That is exactly why I asked the original question. There is a clear difference between a song that says something like "I wrote this song for you" and a song that says something like "I started strumming my guitar and I came up with this tune. Now, I am adding some words and I hope they are good. I need a bridge. How about this? Now, I am writing the end of the song while my cat starts begging for treats." They are both self-referencing. But, the second one is a song about writing the song itself in an auto-biographical way. I've discovered that attempting to describe the difference is very difficult and I hoped that there was some word that describes it. As an example, it may be difficult to describe the difference between a book about a person and a book about a person written by the person. But, we have biography with the subcategory autobiography to make it very easy to explain. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 11:09, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Two links that may be of interest:
- https://thecontentauthority.com/blog/autoreferential-vs-autoreference
- https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/17037/terminology-for-a-novel-about-writing-a-novel (hoping that you weren't the person asking that question then)
- Andreas JN466 12:04, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Cool! The term "metanarration" is a very close fit and doesn't have to be about the entire work. Example, Tom Petty's "You Don't Know How It Feels" is not entirely metanarration, but has one line for the listener about what he was doing when he wrote one lyric: "Think of me what you will, I've got a little space to fill." 97.82.165.112 (talk) 13:45, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Weird Al's parody song (This Song's Just) Six Words Long seems to fit. CodeTalker (talk) 00:33, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- Cool! The term "metanarration" is a very close fit and doesn't have to be about the entire work. Example, Tom Petty's "You Don't Know How It Feels" is not entirely metanarration, but has one line for the listener about what he was doing when he wrote one lyric: "Think of me what you will, I've got a little space to fill." 97.82.165.112 (talk) 13:45, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
some vs little
Which of the following sentences are grammatical?
1. Last night, Nadia drank some coffee and no alcohol.
2. Last night, Nadia drank little coffee and no alcohol.
3. In her twenties, Nadia drank little coffee and no alcohol.
4. In her twenties, Nadia drank some coffee and no alcohol.
I'm absolutely sure that 1 and 3 are correct, and that 4 is incorrect. (Though I could be wrong on all of them. I'm happy to be corrected.)
I'm not sure about 2. I'm leaning towards correct for 2, but just barely. Mel Gervais (talk) 22:30, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- With suitable contexts, all of them could be perfectly grammatical. No. 4 is a little unidiomatic, but that doesn't make it ungrammatical. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:44, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Could you expand on what the suitable contexts would be?
- To clarify, I'm asking whether the sentences are grammatical or not, not that they are true of Nadia's actual behavior. I don't think any sentence preceding or succeeding these sentences would change whether they're grammatical or not (in my limited understanding). Mel Gervais (talk) 23:12, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- For 4, I could imagine a context of medical detective work where someone is collating somone's dietary history to see what nutritional factor might have triggered a particular condition. So as part of a longer list 4 might sound natural. But you're basically right: it is harder to find plausible contexts for 4. Andreas JN466 12:17, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Jack, but we are both from the same part of the world, so more input would help. HiLo48 (talk) 23:11, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for the input. That is very interesting. To my ears, 4 sounds absolutely wrong, but I can't quite explain why. Mel Gervais (talk) 23:14, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- 4 is grammatical, but would sound more natural as "drank coffee but no (or not) alcohol" or "occasionally drank coffee but never alcohol". (The "some" is weird [but grammatically so].) Clarityfiend (talk) 23:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for the input. That is very interesting. To my ears, 4 sounds absolutely wrong, but I can't quite explain why. Mel Gervais (talk) 23:14, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- They all look grammatical to me. Could you say what you think is wrong with 4 and borderline about 2? --Trovatore (talk) 04:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- I'd say they're all grammatical, but 4 is odd due to context (or lack of it): drinking coffee is common and unremarkable. Saying that someone drank some coffee in their 20s seems to be suggesting either that drinking coffee is an unusual occurrence, or that it was unusual for that person to drink it. But it doesn't give enough information to say how or why this was unusual. It would be better to say Nadia drank coffee "once" or "occasionally" or "rarely" (or "moderately" or "regularly", or "frequently") depending on how much she actual drank. Iapetus (talk) 09:31, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- I take #4 to be in an implied context of her substance use in her twenties. No alcohol, but a certain amount of coffee. This strikes me as a perfectly ordinary way of putting it.
- On reflection, I think this usage of "some" would take a slight stress in spoken English.
What liquid psychoactive substances do you consume? I drink no alcohol but some coffee.
as opposed toWhat did you have for breakfast? Wasn't hungry; just some coffee.
--Trovatore (talk) 18:27, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
July 6
Floreat Castellum
There is a fanfiction writer with this pseudonym.[6] Can anyone translate it? I was able to find the Latin words in Wiktionary but I think what I got misses some nuance. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:3E20:0:0:0:9D5F (talk) 02:24, 6 July 2023 (UTC) Added: I'm thinking something like "let the castle bloom/flourish", where the castle is Hogwarts', since the person writes Harry Potter stories. Does that sound right? 2601:644:8501:3E20:0:0:0:9D5F (talk) 03:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Why no just ask the writer: the Bio includes contact details. Mitch Ames (talk) 04:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- That sounds correct. Floreat is the 3rd person singular praesens coniunctivus of floreo, to flower, flourish, of plants but figuratively also other things. Castellum is the nominativus or accusativus singular of castellum and means castle or fortress or any other fortified place, or maybe refuge. So it means "May the fortress flourish," or something equivalent. Normally, in Latin, the verb is put at the end (although native English speaking writers of Latin tend to use SVO order), but I don't think the inversion is significant. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:11, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Eton's motto is of course Floreat Etona, and there is the painting Floreat Etona!. DuncanHill (talk) 08:15, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- And there's Floreat Magdalena. Bazza (talk) 10:21, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is also a magazine named Floreat Castellum,[7] associated with the Castle Junior Common Room of University College, Durham, nicknamed "Castle", referring to Durham Castle located on its grounds. --Lambiam 11:29, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- And what we heard at the recent coronation: Vivat Regina Camilla! [8] (at 12:10) - a fairy tale in the true sense of the word [9]. The presence of a Church of England minister has been a necessary element of a valid royal wedding for more than a thousand years, and a sacrament has been efficacious the first time it is performed for twice that. 78.146.99.84 (talk) 13:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Or to translate that into English,
Floreat is the 3rd person singular present subjunctive of floreo, to flower, flourish, of plants, but figuratively also other things. Castellum is the nominative or accusative singular of castellum and means castle or fortress or any other fortified place
. - ColinFine (talk) 18:41, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Or to translate that into English,
- And what we heard at the recent coronation: Vivat Regina Camilla! [8] (at 12:10) - a fairy tale in the true sense of the word [9]. The presence of a Church of England minister has been a necessary element of a valid royal wedding for more than a thousand years, and a sacrament has been efficacious the first time it is performed for twice that. 78.146.99.84 (talk) 13:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Eton's motto is of course Floreat Etona, and there is the painting Floreat Etona!. DuncanHill (talk) 08:15, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
(From OP) thanks all. I saw the author bio page but the contact address is on Tumblr which is some kind of social media hellhole where I didn't want to make an account. 2602:24A:DE47:BAE0:A571:3763:7E69:EEC5 (talk) 07:58, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
enclosure
hi, what is the meaning of enclosure in the next phrase:
The animals seemed to have an instinctive trust and actual attraction to him. There in his animal enclosure, we saw his inevitable power over its many residents — foxes, badgers, hares, squirrels, weasels, an eagle, eagle owl, hawk, capercaillie and black game.
Is it possible that the painter was an owner of a little zoo? טל ומטר (talk) 15:44, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- An enclosure is just a secure, probably fenced area where he keeps his animals so they can't escape. --Viennese Waltz 16:01, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- (ec) Bruno_Liljefors#Style suggests that he indeed kept animals. So, why do we have to figure out the name of the painter ourselves? Is this a game, do I get a prize? --Wrongfilter (talk) 16:02, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. טל ומטר (talk) 17:42, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- It's a Black Game, it seems. An unusual way to say black grouse. (Orrspel, grouse-game, in Swedish.) I question how it's possible to keep foxes, badgers, weasels and several raptors in the same enclosure as hares, squirrels, and grouse, for more than a day or two. Card Zero (talk) 01:11, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- The Swedish seems to have been mixed up. Spel means game for play in Swedish, not game for prey, and in orrspel, spel refers to courtship display or lek. (Otherwise, spel and lek are near-synonyms which both could mean somewhat like game for play.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:28, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, I hadn't even seen the "game" in the question. That's not what I meant, I was just wondering whether OP was playing a game with us. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Or maybe I just missed the joke... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:58, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, I hadn't even seen the "game" in the question. That's not what I meant, I was just wondering whether OP was playing a game with us. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- The Swedish seems to have been mixed up. Spel means game for play in Swedish, not game for prey, and in orrspel, spel refers to courtship display or lek. (Otherwise, spel and lek are near-synonyms which both could mean somewhat like game for play.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:28, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
Questions
- Is there any Romance language with back unrounded vowels (including /ɑ/)?
- Is ther a language with one open vowel with /a/ definitely a back vowel? I have thought that in prototypical five-vowel system, /a/ is a back unrounded vowel and there are no central vowels in such system.
- Is there any Romance language with two open vowels?
- Is there any Germanic language which has long vowels in unstressed syllables?
- Can pronouns it and they be used as demonstrative pronouns like Finnish se and ne? Like se auto -> it car; ne autot -> they cars.
- Is there any Mongolic language written in Latin alphabet?
- Does any language uses special letters (with diacritics) in naming in either columns or rowns in map with grid which helps users to find the place?
- Does Spanish have dark L? --40bus (talk) 16:58, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- 5. I would interpret that as a possessive it[s] car or the[ir] cars. But Cornish dialect mentions they as a demonstrative adjective – they books, so apparently it is possible in at least one variety of English. --Amble (talk) 18:09, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- 1,3: French has /a/, /ɑ̃/ and /ɑ/ (the last may be missing in some dialects). If you consider /ɑ/ unrounded, that's yes on 1. It's also yes on 3. PiusImpavidus (talk) 20:16, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- 2: Consider this. The standard value of a vowel can be defined as a single point on the vowel chart, but an actual realisation of that vowel is already a fuzzy area on the chart. When you extend this to an idiolect, a dialect and ultimately a language, that fuzzy area gets ever larger. If a language has only a single open vowel, chances are that the fuzzy area extends the entire width of the vowel chart, making any open vowel a valid realisation of this vowel; no more point in discussing front versus back. There's no need to make the invalid areas on the vowel chart any larger than necessary to avoid confusion. Larger fuzzy areas allow for less precise and faster speech. PiusImpavidus (talk) 20:28, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- 4: What is a long vowel? Dutch has no phonemic vowel length (most dialects at least), but in some environments vowels get usually pronounced a bit longer than in other environments. There are also vowels traditionally called long, others short. The short ones can also be called lax or checked, the long ones tense or free. Now consider the words vóórkomen (to occur) and voorkómen (to prevent; in both cases the stress marks are optional), which only differ in stress. The first o, the one spelled double, tends to be a little longer than the second because it's followed by an r. Traditionally, both are considered long. In one word, only the first is stressed, in the other, only the second. PiusImpavidus (talk) 20:46, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- #2 contains so many errors it's unintelligible. Are you asking if there is a language with an open back unrounded vowel and no other open vowels? Nardog (talk) 22:28, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
Linguistic term
I am translating an article from French and need an English word that's probably in my recognition vocabulary but that I can't quite seem to remember.
Basically, no fairies are involved in the history of the castle. It was in ruins from the 11th to the 16th centuries and it seems that "défait" (ruined) became "des fées" (of the fairies). The word "elide" keeps coming to mind but I don't think that's right. Suggestions welcome.
PS - Before someone points this out, yes, I am aware that the draft still contains untranslated French, and needs more references. Elinruby (talk) 21:34, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Folk etymology... AnonMoos (talk) 23:02, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Mondegreen? -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 23:45, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- If it's a verb you want, taken for is all over the rebracketing article (which is the same article as Nardog's metanalysis). Perhaps mistaken for is clearer. I note that derive has the same vowel pattern as elide, so perhaps that's what was on the tip of your tongue. Or how about misconstrue? That means to parse wrongly. Ooh, or conflate. In fact Wiktionary gives that as the third meaning of elide, with a usage note:
The third sense, “conflate”, seems to be a recent development. It is not recognized by dictionaries such as Merriam-Webster and can be considered to be incorrect.
The reference there to this phonetics blog belonging to John C. Wells is worth reading. One of the commenters makes a connection to Elision (French), where (in the process of cutting a vowel out) two distinct items are joined together. Card Zero (talk) 00:03, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks to everyone responding. I looked up "ellide" before I came here, and the vowel did not get cut out, so that's not it. Instead, over the course of a 500-year period, "day-feh" became "deh fay", if that helps. And yeah, this is etymology, or toponymy, but what's the word for the vowels getting blurred that way? I haven't done much before now with the early history of (specifically) eastern France, but given the location it's pretty likely that the area was invaded a few times, if that sparks a neuron somewhere...maybe foreign Flemish incomers mispronouncing? (my unsourced speculation, and sort of off-topic since I am looking for a technical term that is a type of language drift, but maybe looking at it that way will give someone an idea) Thanks for any further brainpower applied to this question. I am going to go take a look at that blog and maybe click some see also links... Elinruby (talk) 02:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Mondegreen and metanalysis look useful for the explanation of where the name came fro, although neither is the word I'm going trying to remember. It's not drift either. That article is pretty technical but assuming I understand it, it describes the process that gives us false friends in translation. Thanks all, suggestions still welcome Elinruby (talk) 08:58, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks to everyone responding. I looked up "ellide" before I came here, and the vowel did not get cut out, so that's not it. Instead, over the course of a 500-year period, "day-feh" became "deh fay", if that helps. And yeah, this is etymology, or toponymy, but what's the word for the vowels getting blurred that way? I haven't done much before now with the early history of (specifically) eastern France, but given the location it's pretty likely that the area was invaded a few times, if that sparks a neuron somewhere...maybe foreign Flemish incomers mispronouncing? (my unsourced speculation, and sort of off-topic since I am looking for a technical term that is a type of language drift, but maybe looking at it that way will give someone an idea) Thanks for any further brainpower applied to this question. I am going to go take a look at that blog and maybe click some see also links... Elinruby (talk) 02:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- I think the technical term is false splitting (for défait → des fées). The opposite transformation (des fées → défait) is called juncture loss. --Lambiam 12:48, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
"Basically, no fairies are involved in the history of the castle." Are you quite sure? The little people might have something to say.
Faeries, come take me out of this dull world,
For I would ride with you upon the wind,
Run on the top of the dishevelled tide,
And dance upon the mountains like a flame.
― W. B. Yeats, The Land of Heart's Desire MinorProphet (talk) 00:32, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yep. Pretty sure the chansons de geste would have mentioned that. They do say there was a magic steed, though <g> And thanks for the Yeats, I needed that Elinruby (talk) 02:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- To address the original question, this sort of mistaken evolution of words is often called "corruption" - see Collins Thesaurus: Corruption: "3 (noun) in the sense of distortion. Definition: an unintentional or unauthorized alteration in a text or data".
- It gives an example: The name `Santa Claus' is a corruption of `Saint Nicholas'.
- We also have on Wikipedia:
- The English name, dandelion, is a corruption of the French dent de lion meaning "lion's tooth".
- Wingaersheek Beach: According to the USGS the name is a corruption of the'earlier Dutch name "Wyngaerts Hoeck".
- The track was called Route du Roi, French for King's Road, which was eventually corrupted into "Rotten Row".
- Alansplodge (talk) 20:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
thank you all. On deeper reading of the answers here, I think you guys have given me enough vocabulary to explain what happened, so I am calling this question well-answered. I still have this can't-quite-remember feeling but there's no reason to believe that the elusive term on the tip of my tongue would be better or even correct at all. I appreciate everyone's time. Elinruby (talk) 00:06, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- It appears to be a mistranscription - an example of one sound that can be written in two ways. To give an example of a corruption - the Portuguese for St James is Santo Iago. This may be shortened to Sant'Iago. But then someone came along and invented a completely different persona - São Thiago. 2A00:23C7:A103:CF01:F40E:89FF:FD2F:57D (talk) 12:03, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Another example is Court of Pie Powder. 2A00:23C7:A103:CF01:F40E:89FF:FD2F:57D (talk) 12:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Also Beefeater, said to be from buffetier. Alansplodge (talk) 12:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Another example is Court of Pie Powder. 2A00:23C7:A103:CF01:F40E:89FF:FD2F:57D (talk) 12:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Isn't false splitting the term that fails to roll of your tongue? --Lambiam 13:45, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Actually I was clicking around on this some more last night, and verlan jumped out at me as a word I at least recognized but hadn't seen in years. So that was probably it. Yes, I am weird. No, it isn't a linguistic term, or correct; I have only ever encountered it as a kind of thieves' cant, analogous to Cockney rhyming slang. False splitting is indeed correct, on the other hand, since one word became two. Some of the other suggestions may help explain the reversed position of the vowel sounds.
- The article thanks you. (I guess this part would not be a translation, since it isn't in the French. It is common for a translation from French Wikipedia to need additional work.) Elinruby (talk) 18:37, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Verlan, just like gayle and polari etc. is the name of a particular cant variety. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:48, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, and it specifically inverts the order of syllables, although it isn't a perfect match for the process in this case either, since the consonants remained in place. But I think that was the nagging not-quite-memory that was trying to surface. I encountered verlan when I was reading Louis-Ferdinand Céline, who is known for this sort of wordplay, and yes, that was quite some time ago. Thank you for the mentions of another two types of cant, and the corruption examples, as I am interested. So the Reference desk has given me some words I needed, and also, more indirectly, answered the more difficult question of what it was that I could not remember. With some Yeats thrown in for gorgeousness. Well done all around. Elinruby (talk) 21:25, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Switching around the vowels makes me think of spoonerism. CodeTalker (talk) 00:38, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, and it specifically inverts the order of syllables, although it isn't a perfect match for the process in this case either, since the consonants remained in place. But I think that was the nagging not-quite-memory that was trying to surface. I encountered verlan when I was reading Louis-Ferdinand Céline, who is known for this sort of wordplay, and yes, that was quite some time ago. Thank you for the mentions of another two types of cant, and the corruption examples, as I am interested. So the Reference desk has given me some words I needed, and also, more indirectly, answered the more difficult question of what it was that I could not remember. With some Yeats thrown in for gorgeousness. Well done all around. Elinruby (talk) 21:25, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Verlan, just like gayle and polari etc. is the name of a particular cant variety. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:48, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
July 7
I lost them: idiom with opposite meanings
In a book I'm reading a chapter starts with "Saturnino lost them in the early streets of the Bosques de las Lomas district ...".
For context, this part is set in Mexico City, and Saturnino is in his car, following Haydon et al in their car. But it's strangely written, with an abundance of narrative detail that sometimes causes me to lose my way, put the book aside, and come back to it and try to pick up the thread. Haydon is also following other cars, including Saturnino's, at various times. So, when I opened this chapter I was a little unsure of who was following whom. I initially read it as Saturnino successfully outrunning the others and escaping. But as I read on it became clear that Saturnino was doing the following, and Haydon's car was the one that got away (although they weren't aware they were being followed at this point).
What's it called when a sentence or phrase can have two diametrically opposing meanings depending on context? In this scenario both the follower and the followee could have used the "I lost them" idiom and the listener would not have had any trouble understanding. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:10, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- It is a special case of Syntactic ambiguity. I don't know if there is a word for it. "Ibis redibis nunquam per bella peribis" is another example. Auto-antonym is somewhat related. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 00:35, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- I seem to remember (years ago probably) you asked the same question about suspicious, as in "a suspicious man". Card Zero (talk) 00:43, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Excellent. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:43, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Jack asks suspiciously often. 2008, 2011, 2012. DuncanHill (talk) 01:12, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- As I said in 2012: "My memory really needs some new RAM. But at least I'm consistent in my thinking." Nothing has changed. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 08:22, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- The other obvious conclusion is that I'm a goddamned troll, but one who operates so insidiously that it takes special powers of observation and long-term memory to sniff me out (if I may mingle my senses outrageously). I confess. I'll go quietly. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 08:46, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Jack asks suspiciously often. 2008, 2011, 2012. DuncanHill (talk) 01:12, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Both meanings of lose are given by Wiktionary:
- 4. (transitive) To be unable to follow or trace (somebody or something) any longer.
- 5. (transitive) To cause (somebody) to be unable to follow or trace one any longer.
- This is an instance of using a usually non-causative verb in a causative sense. This is in fact fairly common in English; for example, when information leaks to the press it is often because someone leaks it. For more examples; see Causative alternation for examples. What is unusual in this case is that the verb is transitive in both senses, so that the roles of subject and object are swapped. I think this is not a syntactic but a semantic ambiguity, for which oracles are also known. (The oracles of Delphi and Thebes, 560 BC, "If you attack Persia, you will destroy a mighty empire.") --Lambiam 12:44, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Lovely. Thank you. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:58, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- I think you're right and the ambiguity is semantic, not syntactic as I originally thought. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 18:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe you were a victim of terminological ambiguity. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:42, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- I have trouble with lease; either to pay for the use of something or to receive payment. Doug butler (talk) 23:53, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
July 8
Transcribe Korean text
Could you transcribe the full text appearing on the sign, including the text on the ballot, on the side of the pictured gateway, and on the top of the gateway? And then, could you paste it in the file's description page or into annotations on the image? Its caption in Elections in North Korea includes the text 모두다 찬성투표 하자! which looks like a good transcription of the lower part of the sign. Nyttend (talk) 01:10, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Google Translate says the part you've posted here means "Let's all vote yes!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:03, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Kim Jong Un's name in Korean, per the article, is 김정은, which might or might not be part of the poster. Likewise for 조선민주주의인민공화국, North Korea's official name. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:09, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think they vote for Kim Jong-un... AnonMoos (talk) 20:34, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Kim Jong Un's name in Korean, per the article, is 김정은, which might or might not be part of the poster. Likewise for 조선민주주의인민공화국, North Korea's official name. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:09, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Copying and pasting from the image in Safari gives
8월8일은 최고인만화의대이원 선거의날 0 0 6 1190204 /37e2EPe/08 문두다찬성투표하자!
- The numbers seem to be its attempt to interpret his buttons (!) and the vertical writing on the column but all the Korean characters seem to line up with the Korean text. My experience of Korean is zero so I can't correct any errors. --92.40.33.166 (talk) 14:49, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- The poster says
3월8일은 3 ueol 8 ileun
최고인민회의대의원 chwi go in min hwi ui dae ui weon
선거의날 seon geo ui nal
모두다 찬성투표 하자 moduda chanseongtupyo haja
Can't tell you what any of it means. --ColinFine (talk) 16:29, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- But Google says it's "March 8th is Supreme People's Assembly deputy election day Let's all vote yes". ColinFine (talk) 16:31, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
I've now added both the transcription and the translation to the file description. --ColinFine (talk) 16:40, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Russian propaganda - translation error
I saw a news article last year about an amusing translation error in some Russian propaganda, but I can't remember the details.
There is a Russian word which means "loud bang", "clap" (of thunder), "report" (of a gun), which is used by official Russian sources as a euphemism for "explosion". Unfortunately, it's a homonym of another Russian word meaning "broccoli" (or some other vegetable). Machine translation did its work, and Ukranian social media was filled with posts (in Ukranian) that should have said "A loud bang was heard in Kyiv" but actually said "A broccoli was heard in Kyiv", to the amusement of the Ukranian people.
What are the words in question? 82.30.231.71 (talk) 12:02, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- The Russian for broccoli appears to be брокколи (pronounced "broccoli"). Alansplodge (talk) 12:53, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- It appears that ru:wikt:хлопок means both "cotton" and "crack, snap, pop". ColinFine (talk) 16:35, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- In Russian: в Киеве раздался хлопок.[10] There is a discussion of the use of this euphemism on the Ukrainian Wikipedia in the article Новомова в Росії, Russian Newspeak. Ukrainians have now borrowed the term, using it, as seen here, for explosions that take place in Russia. --Lambiam 19:57, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- That's it, thank you. 82.30.231.71 (talk) 21:04, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- In Russian: в Киеве раздался хлопок.[10] There is a discussion of the use of this euphemism on the Ukrainian Wikipedia in the article Новомова в Росії, Russian Newspeak. Ukrainians have now borrowed the term, using it, as seen here, for explosions that take place in Russia. --Lambiam 19:57, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Japanese pronoun
What pronoun does Venom use for himself in the Japanese dub of the Marvel films? Duomillia (talk) 00:50, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Mandarin apostrophe question
Since 2012, China's government has allowed nü and lü to be written as nyu and lyu in the "diacritic-unfriendly" environment of passports. When these variants are used, is there any provision for how a sequence like hanyu from hanü? Would one or the other be written han'yu or ha'nyu? Or is this problem considered marginal enough to simply be ignored? Lazar Taxon (talk) 02:25, 9 July 2023 (UTC)