Talk:Babymetal

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The word 'band' is misleading and should be replaced with 'idol group'.

The word 'band' is misleading and should be replaced with 'idol group' or simply 'group' because:

It is inconsistent with the cited source material.

You can go through all the cited source material, and vast majority of them refer to them as "idol", "metal idol", "idol group" or something along those lines. For example the very first citied sources states:

"BABYMETAL" was formed in 2010 with the concept of "fusion of idol and metal". It is a derivative unit in which three members of the idol group "Sakura Gakuin" work as "Juonbu", and they are quite unusual in the idol market where the group is divided." (translated from Japanese).

The very first English language source cited in the article states:

"The Japanese pop-metal group’s third album, which arrives October 11th, will contain 14 songs and feature a bevy of guest artists."

It is inconsistent with the literary definition of the word 'band'.

Oxford dictionary defines the term band as:

"a small group of musicians who play popular music together, often with a singer or singers" [band_1 noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Cambridge dictionary defines:

"a group of musicians who play music together" [BAND | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary]

So it is safe to assume that the term band refers to a group of musicians. Are Babymetal musicians by definition? Let's see how the term musician is defined. According to Oxford dictionary:

"a person who plays a musical instrument or writes music, especially as a job"

[musician noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com]

The Babymetal girls neither play musical instruments nor write music. So they are singers and dancers, not musicians according to the literary definition, and hence not a "group of musicians" i.e. a band.

It is to be noted that the Kami band is not a part of Babymetal according to Babymetal's own official website, they are essentially just a backing band. Many musical acts use backing bands, even solo artists use backing bands during live performances, that doesn't make them a 'rock band' or a 'metal band'. For examples Ayumi Hamasaki uses a backing band during live performances, it is also more or less a permanent band since many instrumentalists are long standing members, who have also appeared in her music videos, just like kami band, but it doesn't make the act a band. it is still a solo act, since those guys aren't official members.

It is inconsistent with other Wikipedia articles.

Wikipedia articles about other similar musical acts like Passcode and Necronomidol clearly define them as "metal idol group", which would make defining Babymetal as a "metal band' inconsistent with other Wikipedia articles. This will cause confusion among readers at the very least. Other metal idol groups also use backing bands but are still defined as "idols".

It is inconsistent with the historical precedent in terms of the usage of the 'metal band'.

Historically the term 'boy band' and 'girl band' have been used for groups who only sing and dance like Backstreet Boys, One Direction, Spice Girls etc. The term 'boy/girl band' have never been interchangeable with 'rock/metal band'. Even the origin of the word band lies in the group of instrumentalists used by armies, and have always been linked to playing instruments as described here: https://www.etymonline.com/word/band

Instrumentalists were intrinsically linked to the word 'band'. The word 'one man band' conjures an image of a man who plays all the instruments by himself. A group of instrumentalists have historically been referred to as a band, but a group of singers were usually not.

The term 'band' is not universally accepted in context of Babymetal.

A large section of the music community including professionals, other artists and music critics refuse use the term 'metal band' for Babymetal. Referring to them as such is 'contentious' at best. If we strictly go by the definitions then, Babymetal is 'metal' but not a 'band'.

[Removed this section because it was perceived as personal attack]

Referring to Babymetal as a 'metal band' presents an inaccurate image to the people who are unfamiliar with the group. It does not reflect the true nature of the group. Referring to Babymetal as a 'metal band' while other heavy metal vocal-dance groups with a backing band are referred to as "metal idol groups" is misleading.

The term 'idol' should be used as Babymetal fits most criteria of being a Japanese idol group. So it should be called a 'metal idol group' instead. If the term 'idol' is not accepted by people here then at least the term 'group' should be used as it will the least contentious. Lucems (talk) 07:17, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment: I have no opinion on the matter, but I wanted to talk about the dictionary definitions you include here. Fundamentally, dictionaries do not define how languages should work, so their descriptions should not be taken as gospel. A dictionary is not infallible, and picking a single definition from a single reference work does not determine how a word is used within a given language. Specifically, your definition of "musician" derived from Oxford's Advanced Learners Dictionary is simply one reference point. I've looked in several other dictionaries, and they all define "musician" as a person who creates and/or performs music ([1], [2], [3]), which categorically includes the singers of Babymetal. Dictionary definitions should not be used to demarcate article subjects regardless, as articles are based entirely on what reliable secondary sources say about a topic; whether to describe Babymetal as a metal band or an idol group is entirely contingent on what reliable sources call it.

I'm not familiar with the history of this article beyond what I've personally added to it, so I can't comment on any potential bias, but try to keep such accusations to a minimum unless you can support them with evidence (e.g. with diffs or links to prior discussion on talk pages). Comment on content, not the contributor (see also Wikipedia:No personal attacks). ArcticSeeress (talk) 07:48, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I removed the part you perceived to be a personal attack. But my point still stands. it was unreferenced, and making definite statements about a widely contentious topic with no consensus among experts is an example of bias and is misleading as far as my understanding goes. Also kindly tell me what is accepted as proof of bias as I am new to this platform (as a contributor), so I can repost with evidence.

Yes, I agree with you that dictionaries should not be taken as gospels, but that goes for the dictionaries which state otherwise too. And things should not be viewed in isolation. If you take into account the historical trends of the usage of the word 'band', the opinions of large section of music critics and the general perception of the word 'band', then it is clear that in this context the term 'band' includes presence of instrumentalists more often than not. Lucems (talk) 08:34, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

It's late here so apologies for not going through this point by point, but when WP:CONSENSUS to use "band" was established (archive 3 of this talk page if you'd like to look--there's no official note Designating Consensus™ but a majority of editors preferred band for various reasons at the time), several English sources used "band", and at least one Japanese source used several different terms (IIRC, something like "band", "group", and "artist") interchangeably. Pointing out sources that only use the words you like feels like cherry-picking.

Further, "it doesn't match other articles" on its own feels a little "other stuff exists" (which is an argument to avoid in deletion discussions, but in other discussions is generally advised to be used judiciously). Anyway, just like I personally brought up in the last discussion (acknowledging it was technically "other stuff exists"), a lot of articles even for straight idol groups (non-metal genre) use band and group interchangeably. Passcode's article does this for instance (and for a non-metal example, so does Momoiro Clover Z).

Usage of band is not confusing as to many English readers it would be synonymous with group (which is why some articles use the two words interchangeably!); I can only imagine the most pedantic of readers being confused about it. As far as universal acceptance goes, it's also not universally accepted that Babymetal is metal, even just going by how often people show up to edit mentions of metal out of the article (actual reliable sources are more accepting, but I'm sure one or more reliable sources exist that refuse to acknowledge Babymetal is metal, either). I haven't seen a source that tries to refute Babymetal being a band; just not using (or not consistently using) the word "band" is not enough to say that it isn't universally accepted in the sense that it would cause issues with the article to use it, and to say that it is based on that alone feels like it's treading into original research.

Given the fact that band-to-group edits are not unheard of but also aren't any more frequent than metal-removal edits, I'd argue keeping current consensus isn't any more of a contentious option than your idea, unless we are also to strip any mention of metal from the article as well. I don't strongly care either way (much like the sources overall didn't last time I checked), but the inertia in me doesn't think the actual meat of this argument (its substance and/or any connection to policy and guidelines) is enough to sway me away from just following the current consensus.

(Whoops. I did go over virtually every point. Facepalm Maybe I'll go in tomorrow and revise slightly to directly link guidelines and policy where relevant since I did skip doing that sort of thing...) - Purplewowies (talk) 08:30, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Most recent news articles from reliable sources use "band" to describe Babymetal. (Example 1) ([4]Example 2) (Example 3) As pointed out in previous replies, "band" and "group" are frequently used interchangeably in sources. GimmeChoco44 (talk) 08:35, 22 July 2023 (UTC)