Talk:Floppy disk

Use unambiguous prefixes again

In 2017 I wrote:

The capacities stated in this article are difficult to understand since they are a mixture of IEC decimal and binary prefixes. I would like to edit the article so that capacities are always stated in unambiguous IEC binary (e.g., KiB) or decimal (e.g. kB) prefixes. ...
— Talk:Floppy_disk#Use_unambiguous_prefixes?

There wasn't much support then and the consensus seemed to be to use the prefixes of the source and live with ambiguity. A comment to that effect is embedded in the section of the article. @ShadyCrack: in a recent edit, now reverted, converted all of the values with IEC decimal prefix kB to values with conventional binary prefixes, KB. Going all conventional binary prefix is one way to resolve the ambiguity but if we are going to convert units such conversion probably should be flagged in some form. Personally I would prefer IEC Binary and Decimal prefixes but going all conventional, so annotated, works too. Comment? Tom94022 (talk) 18:41, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I found the 23FD, 33FD, and 43FD presentation of size rather confusing in the context of this table, so I was attempting to convert to KB as is used in the rest of the table and in the List of floppy disk formats where I confirmed the values. I think these three should be presented as KB to be consistent with the rest of the table.

I did not appreciate the other two "kB" references potentially literally meant 1000 bytes, my bad. ShadyCrack (talk) 19:37, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a reliable source. For example, an IBM 1981 JRD article, "The IBM Diskette and Diskette Drive" gives the 23FD, 33FD, and 43FD capacities as 81,644 bytes, 242,944 and 568,320 bytes respectively. In these cases kB is appropriate and there is no basis for conversion to KB. Tom94022 (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I think the table should be updated to use the current binary standards of kiB and MiB, or at the very least include a footnote on the standard used. For the formatted capacity anyway, the marketed capacity should use whatever it was originally marketed as. StuartH (talk) 11:24, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Generally I prefer KB over KiB per WP:COMPUNITS, but given some of the mixed units in the article, I could see the argument for conversion to KiB and MiB to improve clarity. ShadyCrack (talk) 15:12, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Before we start on such a project there needs to be consensus here on doing it. Right now it is 2 in favor of unambiguous prefixes and one neutral. Given the number of conventional binary prefixes zealots on Wikipedia we probably need 5 to 10 in favor of such a rewrite before we dare attempt. I suppose we could ping the editors who have contributed the most to this article to see if there is such a consensus. Tom94022 (talk) 18:01, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Upon closer review, the article appears consistent with KB = 1024 and kB = 1000. There are some confusing MB references that are worth clarifying. E.g. 1.68 MB and 1.2 MB are not MiB or decimal MB, they are same as "1.44 MB" which is explained or the unambiguous 1,440 KB is used. 1.68 MB could be 1,680 KB, and 1.2 MB could be 1,200 KB. I support leaving the article as KB for readability. But potentially note at the start of the article all KB are 1024 and kB are 1000 bytes. And we clarify anything else as needed. ShadyCrack (talk) 15:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I take it that means you oppose IEC Binary Prefixes. A detailed note in the "Sizes, performance and capacity" section along with some sort of warning at the start of the article, perhaps in the lede, would work so long as we are careful that k==1000 and K==1024 is consistent throughout. I already put in explicit descriptions for the first usage of KB and MB. Tom94022 (talk) 17:29, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

@Tom94022 your recent changes look good. Going forward I feel we should just address any specific ambiguity that is brought up rather than any wholesale unit changes to the entire article. ShadyCrack (talk) 23:54, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Inconsistent fractions

This article currently uses a mix of decimal and fractions to represent physical size (e.g. 3.5-inch and 3+1⁄2-inch). Except when quoting a source, the style should be consistent throughout the article. We should also establish a standard display type used throughout the article. Last time I checked, section headings and links should not contain {{Frac}} as the template is not compatible with URL formatting, but <sup> and <sub> may work for this purpose instead. According to MOS:FRAC, precomposed fraction characters should be avoided, except for articles that limit usage to quarters and halves. Looking among the headings, I didn't find a discussion of consistency in this talk page's archive, nor as an editor note in the article source, hence why I'm bring this up. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 01:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

FYI

 – There is a related discussion at Template talk:Fraction#Unwanted plus sign. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 02:33, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

This has irked me also, would be good to bring consistency. Do you have a recommendation between the three options? I probably prefer the precomposed, although deprecated. With 3.5-inch being my second choice, though most instances are currently fractions. I'm sure plenty of opinions on this one. ShadyCrack (talk) 02:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I believe article titles currently use precomposed characters unless such a character is unavailable. I noticed unwanted plus signs in two of the Floppy disk article's section headings, due to the use of the template in the headings. I decided to leave them for the moment, and link to the related discussion in the FYI above. Regarding the article's text, I would prefer decimals over both {{Frac}} and over the precomposed characters as the most common method of labeling diskette sizes, but I'm not trying to argue for, nor against it; just consistency. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 03:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC) (edited 06:12, 13 November 2022 (UTC))

I have removed the {{Frac}} from the section headings per MOS:NOSECTIONLINKS (template transclusion). In doing so, I chose decimal, which is in keeping with the section anchors. Further, I've usually seen diskette sizes in decimal, not fractions, so I've changed my preference. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 05:58, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Stylistically I have preferred fractions of either type but upon looking over the literature I think decimals would be consistent with various authorities such as ANSI, Disk/Trend, etc. Tom94022 (talk) 07:43, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

BTW I think the problem is we all speak fraction, it is a "three and one half inch drive" not a "three point five inch drive," so some of us then use fractions in text. Tom94022 (talk) 07:45, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Nearly square diskettes

AFAIK the 8-inch and 5.25-inch diskettes were square and the 3.5-inch diskette was nearly square so as to prevent wrong way insertion. I'm pretty sure I am correct and don't want to waste too much time researching this but if anyone knows better please correct me. Accordingly, the generic description, "square or nearly square" is correct and more accurate than merely "nearly square". @Fgnievinski: insists upon the latter which I believe to be inaccurate and have now reverted him twice. Let's have some discussion before we get to WP:3RR. Tom94022 (talk) 19:06, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

The distinction is irrelevant, esp. for the lead; disquettes were square for all practical purposes; we're not geometers discussing oblong rectangles vs. squares. fgnievinski (talk) 20:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Given the two most popular disk sizes, 5.25" (square) and 3.5" (not square), I support leaving as written "square or nearly square". While I appreciate MOS:LEADCLUTTER, it seems strange to otherwise imply a 3.5" disk as square which is not, by design, square. ShadyCrack (talk) 23:36, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Spelling

Is there any significance to "Floppy Disk" spelled with a "k" vs. "Compact Disc" spelled with a "c"? 24.51.192.49 (talk) 04:24, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

"Compact Disc" is trademarked, "Floppy Disk" is not, the HDD folks adopted disk to avoid potential trademark issues with IBM and that carried over into FD. Tom94022 (talk) 07:30, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect archive.org link for a lost citation

The SCS_2007 reference looks like this:

<ref name="SCS_2007">
{{cite web 
|author=(M)Tronics SCS 
|date=2007-05-20 
|title=Floppy-Disketten-Laufwerke 
|trans-title=Floppy disk drives 
|url=http://www.hardware-bastelkiste.de/floppy.html 
|url-status=dead 
|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170619194609/http://www.hardware-bastelkiste.de/index.html?floppy.html 
|archive-date=2017-06-19 
|access-date=2017-06-19 
|language=de
}}</ref>

The links themselves:

1. (dead) http://www.hardware-bastelkiste.de/floppy.html
2. (archive.org) https://web.archive.org/web/20170619194609/http://www.hardware-bastelkiste.de/index.html?floppy.html

That second link is incorrect, the page should be floppy.html not index.html with a parameter after it:

1. (archive.org fixed) https://web.archive.org/web/20170619194609/http://www.hardware-bastelkiste.de/floppy.html

Alas archive.org then rewrites the URL to a different date, so I'm not sure if I should edit it as a drop in replacement; or update all of the dates (including today as an access-date because I've just read and confirmed it).

I'm a new user. Whats the best practice for changing/fixing this? BrushDamp (talk) 09:25, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

5.25 Floppies

The older "360K" floppies (and I'm speaking about IBM-style formatted capacities) had a reinforcing center ring where the drive would clamp the disk. This ring was eliminated on the 1.2M floppies. What was the original idea behind this and why was it deemed unnecessary on the very similar-looking 1.2M disks? 57.135.233.22 (talk) 05:23, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the ring was not standard on any 5¼-inch FD - AFAIC recall it was added by some vendors to prevent or reduce damage caused by the various FDD clamping mechanisms, which would then make the disk unreliable. Tom94022 (talk) 21:00, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm looking at all the pictures of 5.25" disks in the article because I didn't believe you and I don't see any with that ring, so I guess you're right. "Mandela effect" or something. :) .... 57.135.233.22 (talk) 08:52, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Fraction characters

@Tayste: Re: this revert, what's the reason for preferring vulgar fraction characters in these section titles? "5.25" and "3.25" are already being used in subsection headers of Floppy disk#Sizes. Per MOS:FRAC, articles that use vulgar fractions not on the approved list must use {{frac}}, but this cannot be used in link targets, so using decimals in section headers makes it less awkward to link here from those articles and for automated scans to show they have been fixed. -- Beland (talk) 01:10, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, MOS:FRAC admits an acceptable exception "If ¼, ½, and ¾[k] are the only fractions needed" where [k] says these characters "are in ISO/IEC 8859-1 and work in screen readers". I think we want screen readers (and everyone else) to read these as "five and a quarter" and "three and a half" (rather than "five point two five" and "three point five") because that's what these floppy disks were generally called in their day. Tayste (edits) 03:28, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Very well, I have changed all the instances of {{frac}} and decimal fractions to use the Unicode characters. The section headers actually have supplemental anchors with decimal fractions, so links from other articles should work fine. -- Beland (talk) 18:57, 25 July 2023 (UTC)