Talk:Serena Williams

Legacy (remove sentence).

In Legacy section a sentence should be removed (“However, some writers and tennis fans have questioned whether Williams should be considered a role model.”) I personally think it is a no brainer but someone kept reverting to including in talk. a) it is already discussed extensively under Match Controversies” and so is redundant to mention yet again. b) concern(s) have been voiced by commentators and other tennis stars that reactions to the incident are holding Serena to an unequal standard when compared to male and other female players. c) a single incident doesn’t define the legacy and the sources linked (which aren’t always the most reliable) largely discuss the incident itself and not a broader impact on her legacy. d) there are many more examples/sources that illustrate the tennis word consensus on her being a role model. Max3218 (talk) 18:32, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Whether she is a role model has not been discussed extensively in other sections. Plus this is a new section talking about her legacy in the sport where she has admirers and detractors. This is longstanding and seems like a no-brainer to me to keep it intact for balance. We could simply get rid of her being a role model and the balancing statement. And what are you talking about with a single incident? Her time on court has had many incidents that have added tarnish to a stellar career. Her tennis prowess has been amazing but so was Ty Cobb's baseball prowess. We have to be careful and not sound like a travel brochure. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:51, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Keeping fairness in how Legacy sections are covered is important. If that sentence, which the level of truthfulness is questionable, is to be kept then the Legacy sections of other great tennis players should be updated to include controversies as well. Other talk pages, including Graf, Evert, etc., there is resistance to including anything negative. Additionally, male tennis players Legacy sections like John McEnroe don’t include negatives (Jonny Mc being know as very combative etc on court). Holding Serena’s Legacy page to a different standard is wrong and fixing it should be a no brainer. Max3218 (talk) 05:02, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

There is a big difference as to being great and being a role model. All it says is "some writers and tennis fans have questioned whether Williams should be considered a role model." Nothing more but it gives links. We could certainly get rid of "Her numerous victories on court have largely been a positive influence on young girls and boys who see Williams as a role model and an ambassador of tennis." There are many many tennis fans who do not agree with that statement so it is really not true unless we give the balancing statement. And giving balance is not something that is singular to Serena Williams legacy. Pancho Gonzales legacy is full of counter punching, as is Bill Tilden. By us simply saying "some writers and tennis fans have questioned whether Williams should be considered a role model" we are being positively tame. Mac being combative and Serena not being a role model by some is pretty on par in the legacy section. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:17, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

" We could certainly get rid of "Her numerous victories on court have largely been a positive influence on young girls and boys who see Williams as a role model and an ambassador of tennis"

I think we should remove it and replace it with something that highlights how part of her legacy has been to inspire players of colour. For instance Osaka, Sloan Stephens, Gauff etc have all said they wouldn't be in tennis without Serena e.g.

Saying Goodbye to Serena: Reflecting on Williams’ Legacy – The Oberlin Review

Serena Williams May Be Retiring, But Her Legacy And GOAT Status Will Live On Forever (forbes.com)

Another aspect of her legacy is bringing power and athleticism to the women's game. Although this is briefly touched upon in the lede, mention of it in her legacy section would be quite apt. Koppite1 (talk) 21:54, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah but it's a bit vague. Anyone who didn't think Graf and Navratilova didn't have power and athleticism is crazy. It was more that Serena was the first of a generation brought up as a kid using the newer style oversized power equipment. Even though it was available, it took a generation to really put it to full use and eliminate the net game. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:46, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Then her influence on players of colour should definitely be part of the legacy section. I agree with your initial suggestion of removing the original role model sentences. Koppite1 (talk) 23:20, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

And I agree with you. There should be no end of sources talking about her influence on players of color. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:08, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Just wondering why there are no controversy sections on the general pages of most of the other "modern day" top players/ GOAT contenders, while great focus and attention had been made of Williams's controversies? For instance, Djokovic perhaps has been involved in more controversies than most, yet there is no section specifically dedicated his controversies? Just a quick glance over his page, and even big controversies such as his Tokyo Olympics is not even mentioned on his page. A quick glance at Steffi Graf's page, there's no mention of the illegal coaching controversies, quick glance at Navratilova, no mention of her racket smashing/temper losing 1994 French open. For the sake of balance and fairness, shouldn't equal focus be put on their controversies too? Maybe they too should have a controversy section on their main pages? Koppite1 (talk) 19:49, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Djokovic's controversies are just more scattered, but other players also have controversies. Margaret Court, Bill Tilden, Pancho Gonzales, John McEnroe. In the modern media era, probably Djokovics meltdowns come closest to Williams. He should have a section. Grafs and Navratilova are more like tiny pimples compared to Williams. Sourcing plays a large part of every article and Serena's issues have become part of her persona. Osaka has had her issues too, but it is not under the same microscope as Serena's. There is also article weight to deal with. Graf and Navratilova have tiny articles compared to Serena Williams. As you expand all the tennis items the controversy sections gets expanded as well. Things that are a sentence in most articles become a paragraph with Williams. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:15, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Re Martina Nav, there are more than strong enough examples and strong sources to have a match controversy section. Just a very quick search brings up:

1)1994 French open (racket smashing/losing temper)

Tennis: Navratilova makes quite a racket on her way out: Former champion shows flash of temper after first opening-round loss in Grand Slam event | The Independent | The Independent

2)Wimbledon 1992 (was often referred to as grunt-gate--complained about Seles grunting, but didn't start complaining until she was losing and then got all defensive about accusations that she only started complaining when she was losing)

WIMBLEDON : Seles Quiets Navratilova : Women: Complaints about her grunting don't stop her from reaching final against Graf, who easily beats Sabatini. - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

Tennis: Wimbledon '92 / Grunt and Graf in way of Seles dream: The determination of Monica Seles came over loud and clear as she beat Martina Navratilova yesterday | The Independent | The Independent

3)Minor tennis tournament 1993 (if India Wells is included for Williams, then same should apply re minor tournaments for Martina---loudly scolding/shouting/arguing with the umpire and then refusing to shake his hand)

Tennis: Navratilova is beaten by qualifier: Former Wimbledon champion berates umpire at DFS Classic before losing in three sets to Australian ranked No 179 in the world | The Independent | The Independent

4)US Open 1976 v Janet Newbury- (complete meltdown after losing, had to be helped off the court-and then was so upset had to duck the press conference-Newbury, who had to help Nav off the court said “I hope I never see anyone in that condition again,”. Even Nav said " wasn't nice, the way I acted. I just didn't have any control over myself at the time.. I still consider that loss the worst of my career, at least in the way I responded to it on and off the court.")

Shape Your Self (archive.org)

‘Never See Anyone in That Condition..’ - When a Distraught 19-Year-Old Martina Navratilova Had to Be Escorted off the Court by Her American Opponent - EssentiallySports

5)Another minor tournament 1994 Virginia Simms--(lost to Maleeva, was so upset left the court without attending the farewell ceremony held by the tournament in her honour)

The day Martina Navratilova played in Chicago for the last time (tennismajors.com)

etc etc etc etc etc etc

Re Graff, i agree no separate section re controversy is warranted. However, brief mention of the allegations of illegal coaching should be there.

Agree with you that a separate section re controversy is needed for Djockovic.

I'm quite willing to try and get the ball rolling on some of these Koppite1 (talk) 12:56, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't see those Navratilova situations as the same. Obviously you do. Some get included because the others were so bad. The Navratilova ones could simply be included with the match itself. And as I said, when your article is 5x bigger than everyone elses, match controversies are also 5x bigger. Otherwise you get undue weight, Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:19, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Apart from the last example 1994 Virginia S, i feel the rest are weighty enough to compile a controversy section for Martina Nav. I'm quite willing to start the ball rolling (unless there are overwhelming objections). Will also put in a brief paragraph re Graf's illegal coaching Koppite1 (talk) 19:40, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

The thing is Everyone complained about Seles grunting. Papers talked about it all the time. And if you include breaking her racket, there are probably a lot more for Serena that were not included. Do as you will but don't use the reason that because Serena is controversial and has a section, that others must have one too. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:18, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Seems there is a deliberate attempt here to keep a lot of negative things in Serena Williams page, even if it makes no sense. If some writers or fans' negative opinions of Serena's legacy is included, then it should be included for every other tennis player or athletes as that basis applies to everyone. Nobody is a perfect role model and opinions of writers who don't like Serena should not be included as fact. I can quote some articles that don't consider Federer a role model. He's certainly not a role model for black athletes and has also behaved badly on court many times (same with 1000s of other athletes). So why is that not included in Federer's legacy??

There's also a section that says Serena is "considered" as one of the greatest tennis players. Considered - seriously? What an insulting language to her achievements. It's as if her achievements are an after thought, like only one person in the world thinks she's great. Yet Steffi Graf is written as "Widely regarded". Ethan009 (talk) 10:11, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. Wikipedia does not exist to glorify the achievements of sportspeople. Let the readers make their assessment themselves.Tvx1 15:29, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Correct "himself" for "herself"

This sentence needs to be corrected: She makes a cameo appearance as himself in the 2022 Netflix film Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery. 107.77.237.209 (talk) 19:39, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

 Fixed. –CWenger (^ • @) 20:44, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2023

{{subst:trim|1=

}to update her awards} Devinv2 (talk) 14:04, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 14:42, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 May 2023

Why is the language "considered" been used to describe Serena Williams's greatness and achievement in tennis, while in fact she is factually "Widely" regarded as one of the greatest tennis players of all time.

The language should be "Widely regarded as one of the greatest tennis players of all time". This is the same language used for Steffi Graf afterall. Using "considered" for Serena is degorate, as if her achievements are just an after thought.

Change "Considered among the greatest tennis players of all time to "Widely regarded as one of the greatest tennis players of all time". 86.31.47.50 (talk) 09:47, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done. Remember to assume good faith. I very much doubt that this wording was introduced to the article to diminish her achievements. Actualcpscm (talk) 15:36, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

2021 French Open run not discussed

Serena Williams got to the 4th round of the 2021 French Open, defeating Camila-Begu, Bouzkova and Collins before losing to Rybakina. This is not mentioned in the article and should be included. Rishia513 (talk) 18:30, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2023

In May 2023, she revealed that she is pregnant with her second child in an announcement before the Met Gala, where she was seen visibly pregnant. On July 31 2023 it was revealed they were having another girl. 2601:19B:B00:F5F0:B0A1:94A1:532E:D6CD (talk) 02:10, 1 August 2023 (UTC)