Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 21:20, 12 August 2023

Welcome to the language section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

Shortcut

WP:RD/L

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

How can I get my question answered?

Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
Note:
- We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
- We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
- We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
- We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

August 5

Thank you for your service

Where did it come from?

I ask as an Australian, because my perception is that it began in the USA, and is now being used in Australia in place of more traditional ways of showing respect to military and ex-military people. I find the usage here a bit sad. To me it makes the expression little more just a platitude that one says automatically upon seeing someone in uniform, or a photo of one from the past.

Is the origin known? HiLo48 (talk) 05:23, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't expect a "known origin" for a rather mundane acknowledgement. I've never heard this expression in the UK. Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:57, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was and is a common expression also used to thank a servant or civil officer, like here a member of the US House of Representatives thanking the Postmaster General in 1993, or here in an English historical novel from 1821, where Queen Elizabeth thanks a young gentleman for spreading his cloak for the Queen to walk upon. An early (but most likely by no means the earliest) use in writing for thanking a military officer is seen here in an English play first published in 1647 but produced much earlier, where the Duke of Muscovia thanks the eponym, the General of the Muscovites. So the expression did not originate in the US and does not necessarily have a military connotation. A military US use from 1982 is seen here, where a member of the US House of Representatives thanks two WWI veterans. It may be true that the thoughtless obligatory use first took off in the US, what with the need of politicians to cultivate a patriotic public image, similar to the now obligatory display of US Flag lapel pins. This would be hard to document though; how does one distinguish a heartfelt display of gratitude from an acted "thank you"? --Lambiam 16:39, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A quick Google shows that this is a widely used phrase to service personel and veterans in the US, sometimes viewed as a platitude; this 2017 article dates its first use to about 20 years ago. See also Why Saying ‘Thank You for Your Service’ Makes Some Veterans Feel Awkward. As stated above, it's not a known idiom in the UK, but these things have a way of finding their way here eventually. Alansplodge (talk) 17:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

August 6

Chess pieces

Why names of chess pieces in Japanese and Korean are not these languages' words of the meanings of pieces, but adaptations from English? --40bus (talk) 18:28, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's possibly due to the fact that both Japan and Korea have their own native variants of Chess, and Westernized words would serve as differentiation, if I am to speculate. As for the meanings of the words used for the various chess pieces, it actually varies quite a bit, internationally. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:40, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the chess pieces have no inherent meaning. See History of chess. As far as we know, an early form of chess originated in India, while apart from relatively minor issues the game as we know it today, as defined by FIDE, took its form in Persia. The piece now known as bishop in English originally represented an elephant in Persian chess games. The symbolically represented tusks of the elephant may have been misunderstood by Western craftsmen as being a representation of a bishop's mitre. The Spanish, Italian and French names, on the other hand, derive (via Arabic) from the Persian word for "elephant". And the German name of this piece means "runner". --Lambiam 20:29, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

August 7

Neko bowl text

I am interested in buying these bowls, but before I do, I want to know what they say to ensure they aren't offensive in any way if I bring them to work. Is it actual Kanji or just artistic stuff? 97.82.165.112 (talk) 14:17, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it just says maneki-neko although the kanji for 'neko' is very roughly drawn. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:11, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the textured surface of the bowl interferes with printing. Then again in these versions it has an even more confusing shape. There's also something written on the cat's chest, and on its ... cookie? Plus I guess a signature or trademark (clearer on this sugar bowl). Incidentally, look at the size of that cherry. These bowls might not be as big as you expect. Card Zero (talk) 15:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I just realized that I should have shown the image to the coworker who would try to find a reason to be offended by it and ask her what her opinion is before I purchased them. But, as you noted, they are very small, so I will keep looking. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 16:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The "cookie" in the cat's paw was mentioned. I have been told that it indicates the cat is holding a lot of money and is used to mean it is a rich cat. This comes from stores placing the cat on the counter where it is intended to bring financial success. Also, a pot with the same design had Kanji on lid that literally meant "open/close". Not as creative. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Diphthong question

Does English have any height-harmonic diphthongs, long diphthongs or rising diphthongs?
Is there any modern language which marks lenght of diphthongs and monophtongs marked by digraphs by diacritic or doubling?

--40bus (talk) 21:09, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding #1, see Vowel length#In English. Australian English and other Southern Hemisphere varieties, which are often strongly non-rhotic, often use vowel length as a marker of what is a vocalic "r" sound in other dialects. For vowels that are diphthongs, this trend holds as well, I believe. --Jayron 32 12:41, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Welsh English retains the contrast between /ɪʊ̯/ and /(j)uː/ (as in chews vs choose). RP also has [ʊɪ̯] in ruin, fluid, etc., though this is usually analyzed as /uː.ɪ/. All accents have rising diphthongs of /j, w/ + vowel, though not distinct phonemes. Nardog (talk) 14:40, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

August 8

Where to find academic sources on Tsonga languages

I've identified a group of possible misconceptions—or at least a significant absence of information/explanations—on the classification of Tsonga/Tswa-Ronga languages. The Xitsonga article describes both synonyms and dialects, yet in a seemingly contradictory way (throughout the English Wikipedia).

I'll focus on the use of Xichangana to illustrate. From the Tsonga article:

«What is commonly referred to as "Shangana/Changana" is not a recognized language in South Africa and is not a dialect that falls within the Xitsonga language group, as its distinctiveness stems mainly from the use of the Nguni language and grammar.»

And Tswa-Ronga, on the family of languages where Xitsonga is inserted, mentions this:

«"Tsonga" is used to refer to all three languages,[citation needed] although often used interchangeably with Changana, the most prestigious of the three.»

The pt:Língua tsonga article on the Portuguese Wikipedia provides some elucidating sources and answers from Mozambique: Xironga being the dialect in the province of Maputo and Xichangana being the dialect in the province of Gaza, yet people from the province of Maputo also calling their dialect Changana (with some distinctions being lost with the generations). Both Xironga and Xichangana being dialects of Xitsonga, and Xichangana being a recognised language in Mozambique.

So the questions that remain are: who exactly uses the word Tsonga for all Tswa-Ronga languages, who uses Changana to mean Tsonga, who uses Tsonga to be a family of languages of which Changana is a dialect of, and what dialect is that exactly—closely related to Tsonga, Nguni? Where are they spoken and where are they recognised outside Mozambique?

I'm hoping to use the Mozambican academic sources in the mentioned articles to improve the English Wikipedia, however, I still find myself believing there's a lack of other perspectives that might be fueling the current descriptions (namely South African).

As an example, the Portuguese article mentions words like Shangane/Shangaan used in South Africa and Shangani in Zimbabwe apparently with no source.

My background is only meeting people who speak Changana and saying the 2 year-old baby basics, nothing else, so I'm wondering where I can find South African sources to better understand how these terms are used there, academically and by the speakers. Places to search in other areas of interest, like Zimbabwe, are also very welcome.

I recognise I'm asking for something both niche and broad. Hope you can help me. Appreciate it, Sto0pinismo^0_o 20:06, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A Swedish professor discusses how Changana is the name used in Mozambique and Tsonga is the name used in South Africa (but with complications): [1]

Google search snippet for this [2] says “Language policy decisions taken in 1983 recognised Tsonga (that is Tsonga/Changana, and including Ronga and Tshwa), spoken by approximately 19% of the population, as one of” – so searched for a 1983 language policy. There’s probably better info out there, but first quick look brings up a UNESCO paper which was used to inform the policy [3] and this doctoral thesis on the policy [4].

And finally, here’s an interesting discussion of the ethnic group which also explores the naming confusion [5]. (all these found on scholar.google.com) 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:42, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

August 9

Fictional Footnotes

Following up on the helpful advice given here, I wanted to ask about these two fictional footnotes, below. The intent is to look like it's written by an academic or expert in the study of these words and languages.

    Soth, from OE ‘soþ’: True, the opposite of false or pretending, genuine, real, in conformity with the actual state of things, covenant. Cf. ‘soothsayer’ meaning 'one who predicts the future’; Cf. Heptatechus Anglo-Saxonice (HAS) where it is used at Duet. 9:6, whereas the Latin Vulgate (VUL) uses ‘foedus’ meaning ‘treaty, contract, pact, covenant’, the Greek Septuagint (LXX) uses ‘dikaios’ meaning ‘fulfillment of the law’, the Hebrew Leningrad Codex (LC) uses ‘tsedeq’ meaning ‘right, Jupiter’, and the Modern English American Standard Version (ASV) uses ‘righteousness’

    Treowth, from OE ‘treowþ’: Truth, honor, fidelity, an assurance of good faith, covenant. Cf. ‘betrothal’ meaning ‘a contract for the future, esp. marriage’; Cf. Ex. 24:8, which is rendered ‘iustitias’ (VUL) meaning ‘justice, fairness, equity’, ‘diathekes’ (LXX) meaning ‘will, testament’, ‘berith’ (LC) meaning ‘covenant, male circumcision ritual’, and ‘covenant’ (ASV)

Thanks for your input. Schyler (exquirito veritatem bonumque) 21:04, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I find it a bit unclear about what you're aiming for, and what the context is. Is this related to conlanging, worldbuilding or something else? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:00, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per the notice at the top of this page, we don't provide opinions. You need to frame a specific question that can be answered with references. Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:17, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Wakuran: I do think it is about worldbuilding, yes! Thanks for the very helpful insight. From the bottom up, this small detail about the world needs to be credible. The word used is in Old English and the footnote traces some nuances in the history of translations. Is this history of translations credible? Most importantly, does it look like a footnote that would appear in an academic text?Schyler (exquirito veritatem bonumque) 16:17, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To opine on your last question, not really. You'd be seeing a lot more symbols, like asterisks and angle brackets, and an academic source wouldn't introduce both the etymon extensions and the antecedents using the same term "Cf." Look at some etymological dictionaries, and if you have access to the Wikipedia Library, look at some articles about historical linguistics. If you're using actual old words to inform your inventions, look up those actual old words and use what's really been published and add your stuff on top, if that's not what you're already doing. We entertain sillier questions here, but since this is obviously not for the benefit of the encyclopaedia it is misplaced. Folly Mox (talk) 13:34, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Shantavira: I respect any person committed to quoting policy. Cheers to you, mate. Schyler (exquirito veritatem bonumque) 16:17, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Am still confused. Are you asking for sources to show that dikaios, foedus and tsedeq in Greek, Latin and Hebrew are translated using those particular English glosses in various English translations? You could test your translations at one of those multi-translation bible websites, like biblegateway.com. For example for Deuteronomy 9:6 both New International Version and King James Version also translate as “righteousness”, you’d have to look through a long list one by one to find if others went with “treaty” or “Jupiter” or your other words. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:02, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

August 11

Brazilian Portuguese speaker needed

Could a native BR-PT speaker help me provide a translation of the content descriptors listed here? If that is asking too much, even translating some of them would help me--Trade (talk) 14:56, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you click on the links, there are translations on that website. Click on "Nudez ocasionalmente", and the resulting page includes the text "Occasional nudity" etc. AnonMoos (talk) 04:54, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This just looks like simple prosaic descriptors, anyway. I believe a web translation should catch about all of them. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:18, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tutoyer

tutoyer, to use the "tu" and "toi" forms of "you", is, to oversimplify, only used in formal French between family members, lovers, and very close friends. Can anyone suggest a better way to explain this (for Henri Lafont) than "was on personal terms with"? The significance of it in context is that this is a former street urchin addressing the prime minister of France. All thoughts and suggestions welcome Elinruby (talk) 17:47, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since the concept of tutoyer doesn't exist in English, I would use phrasing like "used an unusually intimate tone" or something like that. Something that conveys that the type of language being used was unusual given the difference in social rank and familiarity. --Jayron 32 18:03, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think overfamiliarity might describe it. You may be interested in French police will no longer be allowed to call suspects the familiar "tu". Alansplodge (talk) 12:38, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stéphanois

Was browsing the page for Saint-Étienne and noticed that the demonym is Stéphanois(e). Is there any particular reason why two different forms of the name are used, and is this a particularly common phenomenon? GalacticShoe (talk) 21:42, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

People from the Netherlands are called Dutch, and those from Monaco are called Monégasques. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:49, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah I should clarify, I mean to ask if there are other examples where a place named after a person (in this case Saint Stephen) has different forms of the person's name used for the actual place and its demonym. In this case, more than anything, I'm just curious how different versions of the name ended up being used for the city and its population. GalacticShoe (talk) 22:00, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I can't think of another example named after a person, but is it really a different case from Mancunian or Salopian? ColinFine (talk) 11:10, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For clarity, the connection is that Étienne is "Inherited from Old French Estiene, inherited from Vulgar Latin Stephenus".

A Reference Desk thread earlier this year, Latin-based demonyms?, failed to find any reason why people revert to Latin to describe themselves, except that it might sound more prestigious. Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And another example from our List of adjectivals and demonyms for cities; the inhabitants of São Luís, Maranhão in Portugal are called "Ludovicense". Alansplodge (talk) 12:22, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A change to Latin for prestige purposes makes sense, thanks for the insight @Alansplodge and @ColinFine! GalacticShoe (talk) 14:23, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly in French: Saint-Louis -> Ludovicien. -- Asclepias (talk) 15:29, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

August 12

Translation of a message in a bottle

The file File:Message d'une bouteille à la mer - Île Tromelin © Lauren Ransan - 2013- 2013.jpg shows a message in a bottle that made its way to a small island in the Indian Ocean. Is it in Japanese? Probably something written by a child? What would be a translation in English or in French? -- Asclepias (talk) 13:01, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's in Chinese, but I can't make out the handwriting apart from a few words here and there. Folly Mox (talk) 13:05, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which says more about me than the handwriting, for clarity. Folly Mox (talk) 13:06, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok I zoomed in a lot more, and while I still can't make out all of the words, I think the intended recipient is some kind of spiritual protector, because the message is along the lines of "Protect me and my family. Keep us in good health. Allow our hearts to align with our intentions. Bless us with good fortune and happiness." Folly Mox (talk) 13:16, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. :) -- Asclepias (talk) 13:36, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, sorry, I just see that the file description already has a translation. -- Asclepias (talk) 13:15, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Haha they did a better job than I did. Folly Mox (talk) 13:18, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that you did a good job in rendering accurately the meaning. According to the French translation, the message is addressed to the sea goddess Mazu, which makes sense. -- Asclepias (talk) 13:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh that's what 馬組 meant! I recognised the forms of those characters but couldn't put meaning to them. Folly Mox (talk) 13:38, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder why the salutation begins in English: "Dear ..."? Is that common? Deor (talk) 14:23, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, not quadlogy

Resolved

– 136.54.106.120 (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If a chronological set of three related things is a trilogy, what would the same for four things be called? "Quartet" doesn't seem right to me, but I could be mistaken. -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 19:46, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Its quadrilogy Ioe bidome (talk) 19:46, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's a tetralogy ("quadrilogy" is mentioned there, but it is a Latin-Greek hybrid abomination...). --Wrongfilter (talk) 19:52, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But see The Alexandria Quartet. DuncanHill (talk) 20:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or The Quandary Phase -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 20:29, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get it: what are we supposed to see there? The word wikt:quandary has nothing to do with the number four. And it is not clear to me whether the "quartet" is meant to be a synonym for tetralogy or whether it refers to something in the story. Do you agree that "tetralogy" is the accepted term for a set of four related works? --Wrongfilter (talk) 20:37, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go with tetralogy; at least it's an actual word. Thanks, EAF (aka:136.54.106.120 (talk) 20:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC))[reply]

@@ Line 134: / Line 134: @@
 == No, not quadlogy ==
+{{resolved|[[Special:Contributions/136.54.106.120|136.54.106.120]] ([[User talk:136.54.106.120|talk]]) 21:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)}}
 If a chronological set of three related things is a trilogy, what would the same for four things be called?  "Quartet" doesn't seem right to me, but I ''could'' be mistaken. -- [[Special:Contributions/136.54.106.120|136.54.106.120]] ([[User talk:136.54.106.120|talk]]) 19:46, 12 August 2023 (UTC)