Talk:Sergei Bortkiewicz

Name

I think he isn't Sergei; his ukranian name is Serhiy. Please sy move it, who knows how to do that.

Nothing

Thank you:Ferike333 (talk) 08:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Copyright Issue

The text of this article is almost exactly identical (word for word) to that of the introduction to Bortkiewicz in an 2002 album I own, "Sergei Bortkiewicz, Pianoworks, playedby Klaas Trapman". That introduction is signed by Dr. W. M. A. Kalkman. So it seems that the wikipedia page has been mostly copied from this album, possibly infringing copyrights. 2001:985:7790:1:39B7:5E4F:BFC:FE6B (talk) 12:27, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Edit war regarding Countries of Bortkiewicz' Heritage

It appears that there has been an edit war regarding what countries Bortkiewicz is associated with. Concerningly, it appears that @Michael Aurel, @2a02:1748:dd5c:fa40:bc1a:9343:8688:241e, and @CurryTime7-24 all performed multiple reverts this year without ever adding a new topic on this talk page.

At issue is the phrase "Russian-born Austrian" in the first sentence of the article. @CurryTime7-24 cited MOS:ETHNICITY when introducing this language. However, MOS:ETHNICITY disfavors the use of the country of birth in the lead: "Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." The example provided is that Arnold Schwarzenegger should be called "Austrian and American", not "Austrian-born American".

However, this leaves the important question of whether Bortkiewicz should be described as Ukrainian, Russian, both, or something else. I don't see any convincing arguments either way in the RFEs. Given the scale of the current edit war, it's important to establish community consensus. I'm soliciting the help of WP:Wikiproject Ukraine and Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia/Performing arts in Russia task force.

Also involved in the edit war is the place names. Specifically, there is not a clear consensus on whether Ukrainian names (Kharkiv, Artemivka, and possibly Skorokhodove) or Russian names (Kharkov, Artiomovka) should be used, in a region that was unquestionably subject to both Russian and Ukrainian linguistic influence throughout Bortkiewicz' life. 167.102.146.19 (talk) 20:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

The citation from The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians states that Bortkiewicz was an "Austrian pianist and composer of Russian origin". Later in the same article, it mentions that "at the outbreak of World War I he returned to Russia, but was forced to emigrate in 1919". Edits that contradicted the source were reverted. Such reversions are not considered "edit warring" per WP:EW ("reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring" and "reverting vandalism is not edit warring").

Alternative transliterations of place names are used when chronologically appropriate (see WP:KIEV). Note that this isn't exclusive to articles pertaining to Russia or the Ukraine. For example, the birthplace of E. T. A. Hoffmann is referred to in his article as Königsberg, not its modern name of Kaliningrad. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:51, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

He was from the country of Ukraine, in a period when it was colonized by the Russian empire. There is a tendency in recent sources to recognize this, and a rejection of the colonial attitude about Ukraine that was common in twentieth-century academia (some background). For example, several sources and art museums have renamed Degas’s Ukrainian dancers, and reclassified “Russian” artists Ivan Aivazovskyi, Davyd Burliuk, Oleksandra Ekster, Kazymyr Malevych, Mykola Murashko, Mykola Pymonenko, Illia Riepin, and other artists from Ukraine by recognizing their country of origin, or by describing their identity in more detail, regarding ancestry, citizenship, places of birth and professional activity, &c.

The traditional classification of everything good from Russian-colonized Ukraine as simply “Russian” represents an obsolete imported WP:BIAS and we should not just parrot it or blindly accept voices that advocate for its preservation.

Bortkiewicz was from Ukraine. You may write “Ukraine, Russian Empire,” if it pleases you, but there’s no reason to obscure the country as it was called at that time and still is today (it was also called by the deprecated and offensive synonym “Little Russia”). He was educated in part in Russia, but he was professionally active in Austria, Ukraine, Germany, Türkiye, and elsewhere.  —Michael Z. 22:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

It's possible for people of other nationality to be born on the territory of another country, especially since the country wasn't even existing at that time. Marcelus (talk) 22:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Right. Ukraine didn’t exist, according to the decree of Piotr Valuev, and the name “Ukraine” was an empty placeholder that imperial censors banned from use for no reason. The country, complete with tens of millions of Ukrainians and their language were brought into existence by a divine miracle in 1918, immediately after Lenin signed the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, recognizing Ukraine’s independence and borders. Thanks for the reminder, brother.  —Michael Z. 03:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Valuev is irrelevant in this case. Central Ukraine was a part of the Russian Empire, that's a fact. Marcelus (talk) 05:57, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it was. Thank you for acknowledging the fact.  —Michael Z. 13:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Bortkiewicz was born a Russian citizen; there was no country of Ukraine at the time. He was an ethnic Pole, if anything, but per MOS:ETHNICITY this should not be mentioned in the lead unless it is somehow part of what makes a subject notable. So Garibaldi, for example, who fought for Italian independence and was a central figure in its modern history, is referred to in his article as Italian, even though he was actually born a French citizen. However, Bortkiewicz never played any vital role in the history of Poland, Ukraine, Austria, or Russia for that matter. Even within the history of music his influence was, at best, marginal.

WP:BIAS, by the way, cuts both ways. Just because one is from a country that historically tends to strongly dislike another country, at least politically, does not give one the right to alter facts in order to flatter their pet political beliefs.

Returning to MOS:ETHNICITY, it also states "ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability". In other words, if the lead merely mentioned that he was Austrian or omitted mention of his citizenships altogether, that would be OK too. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:42, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

It appears that there is consensus to no longer mention Bortkiewicz as Russian, so I went ahead and made the edit. This discussion is still open for others to weigh in, and I still approach this with an open mind.

(Required disclosure, my IP address changed. I opened the topic as 167.102.146.19. Maybe I should register for an account to keep this from happening.) 134.192.8.17 (talk) 23:12, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

You refer to reversions that are acceptable according to policy as "edit warring", insinuate that I'm in some anti-Ukraine conspiracy with two other editors I've never even talked to, and you seem to have a personal grudge if your remark about consensus forming against "me" (as if I had anything to do with SB being born in Russia) is any indication. So much for "open mind".

Your familiarity with policy, unusual for a new IP user, and this article in particular suggests that you may be using more than one account without disclosure, but I'll leave that for others to decide. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

In my topic opening I mentioned you and two other editors who were violating WP:EDITWAR. One of them was excessively reverting to indicate that Bortkiewicz was Ukrainian, and the other was excessively reverting to indicate that Bortkiewicz was Russian. It's important to recognize that WP:CIVILITY applies to all sides in a conflict, and it could be harmful and divisive to call out only the uncivil behavior from one perspective.

I appreciate your kind words about my understanding of policy. I am always trying to improve. My use is fully compliant with WP:GOODSOCK. I also will leave that for others to decide.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 13:09, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

It appears that there is consensus to no longer mention Bortkiewicz as Russian, that's incorrect. Marcelus (talk) 06:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Why? With due respect for WP:NOTDEMOCRACY, you are the only user so far who apparently disagrees. We can only incorporate your interests if you support your reasoning for your claim that "Bortkiewcz's national affiliations are relevant to his biography."

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 12:53, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

My impression is different Marcelus (talk) 13:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I wish that you would WP:TALKDONTREVERT. Denying clear evidence that consensus exists, as you did in your RFE, is just WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. I don't see why your edit shouldn't be reverted to restore that aspect of the article to consensus.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Of course there was a country of Ukraine. Consult “Country” and “State” for a reminder of the difference. It was Bortkiewicz’s country of origin, for those who can conceive of countries beyond a nineteenth-century imperial model. That’s why some reliable sources state his nationality as Ukrainian, or describe him as Ukrainian-born.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]  —Michael Z. 03:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure the first five sources are deep enough. Some of these sources merely mention Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian or from Ukraine, without forming a deeper analysis of his national identity. In the same way that the Grove encyclopedia's mere mention of Bortkiewicz as Russian does not end our analysis, the mere mention of Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian in other reliable sources does not end our analysis.

The sixth source seems to conduct a musical analysis and conclude that "it can be said that S. Bortkiewicz is really representative of the Ukrainian culture".

The seventh source does not seem to support your conclusion. Page 7 says, "Niemożliwe, aby identyfikował się również z narodem ukraińskim, gdyż państwo to powstało praktycznie dopiero w XX wieku." (It is impossible for him to identify himself with the Ukrainian nation, as this state has practically only been established in the twentieth century.) I don't accept the logic from this quote. You have provided excellent argument that there was a Ukrainian country, nation, or state around this time, but source 7 does not support your logic that Bortkiewicz was Ukrainian.

I don't see how source 8 supports your case - the frank reality is that it seems to oppose it. Source 8 says on (p. i), "Bortkiewicz was born and raised near Kharkov, Ukraine, but considered himself Russian." (I'm hesitant to accept this statement at face value because the article does mention any unambiguous statements from Bortkiewicz considering himself Russian.) I think the strongest evidence casting doubt on Bortkiewicz' Ukrainian identity is that he called Kharkiv "Little Russia" and "South Russia" (p. 16), terms which you acknowledged are offensive to Ukraine. However, source 8 also notes (p. 26), "Russians considered him Polish, because of his mother’s heritage." This casts doubt in Bortkiewicz' Russian identity. Source 8 also mentions the significant Russian influences in Bortkiewicz' music, which Source 6 does not acknowledge.

MOS:ETHNICITY does not address which specific factors form a person's nationality. However, it is firm that a country of a subject's birth and childhood cannot be a sole factor in determining that person's nationality. The argument that Kharkiv was Ukraine is moot because this was just the "where" and not the "who". It does not establish whether Bortkiewicz himself identified as Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, or something else. I'm beginning to lean toward using the style of Copernicus from MOS:ETHNICITY and omitting from the lead any references to Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian, Russian, or Polish, possibly describing him as only Austrian if there is consensus that he should still be considered Austrian.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 14:57, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I’m merely saying he was from Ukraine.

I don’t think we’re talking about his self-identification at all, and obviously I’m not saying he identified as a Ukrainian. His own comments have to be interpreted in his cultural and historical context: in the Russian empire one could get in serious trouble for publicly acknowledging Ukrainian as a separate national identity so it wasn’t done, and the name Ukrainian wasn’t universally used as an ethnonym until after the revolution (in Austro-Hungarian Ukraine, Ukrainians had referred to themselves as Rusyns, Rusnaks, or Ruthenians). This coloured the way people from there referred to themselves and others, and the way the rest of the world referred to them.  —Michael Z. 20:21, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

MOS:ETHNICITY does guide that self identification is a factor in determining the nationality of a biography subject. Regarding UK subjects, it says, "To come to a consensus, editors should consider how reliable sources refer to the subject, particularly UK reliable sources, and consider whether the subject has a preference on which nationality they identify by." You raise an important concern regarding duress. For the sake of fairness, it would make sense for duress to be a factor among other factors determining nationality, to keep the duress-causing state from being able to reap the cultural benefits of its immoral duress. Although Dmitri Shostakovich's nationality was not questioned, the effects of Soviet duress were obvious in his music. However, I'm concerned that giving too much weight to duress might have the unintended effect of misclassifying people whose identification with their country was genuine and not actually affected by duress. This might be guided by the music of Bortkiewicz, and his biographical details. Yes, we know that he was strongly against the Bolshevik revolution, but did he have affinity for pre-Bolshevik Russia? Did his music ever hint at resistance against the Russian Empire?

It's important to establish consistent style guidelines across Wikipedia. For that reason, I am consulting Wikipedia Talk:Manual of Style/Biography for an opinion on whether duress can be a factor in determining the nationality of a biography subject.

(Also used 134.192.8.17, 50.169.82.253, and 167.102.146.19) 169.156.16.220 (talk) 23:34, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac, Bortkiewicz have spend very little time in Russia, he was living in the west for most of his life; there was nothing stopping him from identyfing as Ukrainian, nonetheless he never did that, insisting on his Russian ethnicity. Marcelus (talk) 06:03, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Bortkiewcz's national affiliations are relevant to his biography. They should not be removed from the lead. Marcelus (talk) 06:02, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the friendly edit removing "born".

Reverting to enforce overriding policies cannot be a sole factor determining that action is not an edit war. If it were, good faith editors could engage in limitless reverts based on their good faith belief that they are enforcing the policies. Although you considered the edits you reverted to be good faith, I don't see any RFE or talk post explaining the reason for your edit, other than mentioning MOS:ETHNICITY in your first revert. WP:EDITWAR guides, "When reverting, be sure to indicate your reasons. This can be done in the edit summary and/or talk page." You reverted four edits, from four different accounts, considering Bortkiewicz Ukrainian in the lead. Certainly, starting with your second revert, it would have been helpful to write a more lengthy RFE or talk page post about why you believed MOS:ETHNICITY to support your edit. Otherwise, it may begin to appear that consensus is being formed against you.

Unlike Königsberg, I'm not sure that the Russian name Kharkov was officially exclusive of the Ukrainian name Kharkiv, at least not before the 1917 Russian Revolution, when Bortkiewicz was already 40.

Since you mention "the Ukraine", please see WP:DONTUSETHE. That term is associated with the Russian perspective. 134.192.8.17 (talk) 22:40, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I just realized my IP address switched. I'm actually the original poster who previously edited as 167.102.146.19. I apologize for the confusion and I'm not trying to create a false appearance of consensus. 134.192.8.17 (talk) 22:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

I saw a request for input at Russia and Ukraine Wikiprojects. I think that saying that he was Russian or Ukrainian is misleading as the reader can understand that this was his ethnicity, which is obviously not true, since he was Polish.

I would rephrase is as "a composer of Polish origin who was born in Russian Empire (modern Ukraine) and lived most of his life in Austria." Alaexis_¿question? 11:29, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Although tThis proposed first sentence does not comply with the guidelines of MOS:ETHNICITY, I'm prepared to accept it anyway because it seems like an appealing WP:COMPROMISE. The facts in this proposed first sentence don't seem to be disputed by anyone: Bortkiewicz had Polish origin, was born in the Russian Empire, was born in what is now Ukraine, and lived most of his life in Austria. This avoids the need to call Bortkiewicz Russian or Ukrainian. Clearly, these are divisive labels, and I'm not sure either label is supported by facts. In my opinion, this proposed first sentence is not excessively wordy, and it lays out the undisputed facts for the reader without jumping to a conclusion about Bortkiewicz' nationality. This seems closest to the Copernicus example on MOS:ETHNICITY, but if the community can't agree on this form of a first sentence, iIt may be better to follow more closely in the steps of the Copernicus example and omit all references to Russian, Ukrainian, or Polish ethnicity or ties in the lead, and instead refer to him either as simply Austrian, or no ethnicity at all.@Mzajac raises valid concerns that the proposed first sentence wording is not a valid compromise, because it presents Ukraine as some kind of later invention.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 12:38, 9 August 2023 (UTC) edited 15:50, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

The references I cited above don’t say “modern Ukraine” or “what is now Ukraine.” They say Ukraine, Ukrainian, or Ukrainian-born. Your WP:SYNTH formulation presents Ukraine as some kind of later invention, which is a theme in Russian fascism but not in reliable sources about Bortkiewicz.  —Michael Z. 12:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac The sources you point to do not identify Bortkiewicz as a "Ukrainian" artist. Moreover, some of them even say the opposite.

"The New Criterion" describes him as a "Ukrainian-born Polish composer" ([9]).

Jeremiah A. Johnson's Echoes of the Past: Stylistic and Compositional Influences in the Music of Sergei Bortkevich ([10]) puts it bluntly: Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877-1952), remains relatively unknown. Bortkiewicz was born and raised near Kharkov, Ukraine, but consideredhimself Russian. (p. i) and It would seem that a composer from Kharkov, Ukraine, undoubtedly would employ the use of Ukrainian folk music and localized folk elements in his music; however, Bortkiewicz rarely acknowledged Ukraine in his own writings and compositions. Throughout his career, he continuously referenced his own pieces with the label “Russian,” (...) In fact, any mention of Ukraine in Bortkiewicz’s Recollections appears quite tangentially. Here is one of the few such occurrences: “I spent the summer (as before in earlier years) on our estate ‘Artiomowka,’ 24 kilometers from the city of Charkow [Kharkov]. We thus lived in Little-Russia, in the so-called Ukraine. A beautiful country with fertile lands.” (p. 5) or The Bortkiewicz family owned a nice estate and land in Artiomowka, about fifteen kilometers from Kharkov, yet Bortkiewicz continually referenced Kharkov as “Little Russia” or “South Russia.” Bortkiewicz noted from his early childhood that Kharkov was regarded as the intellectual center of South Russia (p. 18). Also on the page 26: In a letter dated April 21, 1933, Bortkiewicz wrote to Hugo van Dalen: “Although I have a good reputation in Germany, I still am a ‘foreigner’ and now one is looked upon very unfavorably if one is not a genuine German, and there are even fewer opportunities for any position.” Bortkiewicz seemed to be an outsider wherever he went. Russians considered him Polish, because of his mother’s heritage. In addition, Russians were also looked down upon at the time in Germany and Austria, due to the behavior of Soviet troops abroad and heightened tensions after the war. So there is no question of the artist's Ukrainian origin, or that he considered himself or other people to be Ukrainian.

You also refer to a Polish source ([11]), which states clearly: Today no one is also able to determine whether this artist identified himself with the Polish nation, because even if he did, he could not articulate this publicly. It is impossible that he also identified with the Ukrainian nation, since that state was practically created only in the 20th century. (p. 99)

Did you not study these links at all before inserting them? Are you able to point out that any of these sources say what you claim? Or are you simply providing as many sources as possible just to force acceptance of your version hoping that no one will verify their content?

It is quite easy for you to accuse others of "fascism" and other low motives, but it seems to me that you are the one who should reconsider your behavior, the way you edit and the way you conduct discussions. Marcelus (talk) 13:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it says he was born in Ukraine, not “in modern Ukraine,” not “in what is now Ukraine.”

I did not accuse anyone, just pointed out how their baseless synthetic phrasing can be perceived.  —Michael Z. 13:41, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

You said: "That's why some reliable sources state his nationality as Ukrainian, or describe him as Ukrainian-born," after which you provided several links to sources. Can you clearly indicate which of these sources state his nationality as Ukrainian, and which describe him as Ukrainian-born?

Because my verification indicates that you tried to mislead the participants in the discussion. I ask that you respond to this. Your behavior qualifies to be reported to the appropriate noticeboard. Marcelus (talk) 13:53, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

At minimum, the first, second, and fifth sources cited clearly state this. @Mzajac's use of citations was WP:IMPERFECT but WP:GOODFAITH. The purpose of citing sources is to allow others to critically analyze the sources, as you have done, which shows that the citations served their purpose. Threatening to report this as misconduct seems to lack WP:COURTESY.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 15:11, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Please verify better before accusing of bad faith and threatening reports.

All of these refer to Ukraine as a country under the Russian empire without qualifications. A couple also refer to the territory of the state of modern Ukraine but only supplementally when they are explaining or referring to political historical context.

No. 8 devotes many pages to explaining the historical context of Ukraine as colonized subaltern of the Russian empire as it relates to Bortkiewicz’s identity, and I’d recommend it to anyone that’s not familiar with the subject. I would say that all of these sources, their contrast to some other sources, and especially that essay justify this Wikipedia article identifying Bortkiewicz’s Polish ethnicity and his birth in Ukraine as a subject of the Russian empire as integral to understanding him and his work.

1.[12] 66: “He was a Ukrainian-born Polish composer who lived from 1877 to 1952”

2.[13] 63: “Bortkiewicz, Sergei (1877–1952)—Ukraine, Austria

3.[14] 67: “Bortkiewicz, born in Ukraine in 1877, was a child of his time, his story a variant of that of several better-known figures . . . “

4.[15]154: “He came from the landed gentry of Kharkov in the Ukraine . . .”

5.[16] 96: “Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877–1952, Ukraine) studied both law and music, . . .”

6.[17] 16–19:

“Thus, the creative activity of S. Bortkiewicz until 1919 was connected with the eastern Ukraine and his native city Kharkiv. / When the composer went abroad from Ukraine in 1919, . . .”

“Even foreign musicians of that time, noted the presence in the composer’s musical language the coloring which is inherent music of south-western region of the Russian Empire, i.e. the territory of modern Ukraine.”

“Given all of the above, we claim that S. Bortkiewicz has made a significant contribution to the development of national art, creating outstanding examples of Ukrainian musical romanticism of the first half of the twentieth century.

7.[18] “Some of them claim that he was Russian, others write about his Ukrainian origin. . . . The author of one of the web pages writes that ‘Sergei Bortkevich was born in the Ukrainian town named Kharkov to a noble family of a Polish origin, as a son of the landowner Edward Bortkiewicz’. Due to the mentioned state of research, the need determine the composer’s nationality and to study the history and genealogy of his family in great detail seemed natural. That is why one of the aims of the article is to discuss the assumption of Bortkievich’s Polish lineage even though he was born and raised in the territory of the present-day Ukraine.”

8.[19] i: “Bortkiewicz was born and raised near Kharkov, Ukraine, but considered himself Russian.”

[the country Ukraine] 5: “In fact, any mention of Ukraine in Bortkiewicz’s Recollections appears quite tangentially. Here is one of the few such occurrences: ‘I spent the summer (as before in earlier years) on our estate “Artiomowka,” 24 kilometers from the city of Charkow [Kharkov]. We thus lived in Little-Russia, in the so-called Ukraine.”

[vs. the modern state Ukraine in historical political context] 6: “From 1650 to 1812, the land that is now Ukraine lay on the outskirts of competing territories and constantly shifting borders. Tharoor mentioned, ‘Ukraine would also see the incursions of Hungarians, Ottomans, Swedes, bands of Cossacks, and the armies of successive Russian czars.’”

8: “Bortkiewicz even mentioned Gogol’s importance to the Russian language in his own Recollections: ‘The greatest writer of Ukraine, Gogol, wrote his works in Russian. No one has understood the nature of the people of his land better than he, and yet he wrote in Russian, because as an artist and thinker he understood the superiority of the language.”  —Michael Z. 16:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

So in summary none of the sources describe Bortkiewicz as a "Ukrainian", moreover sources 7 and 8 (which are dedicated to Bortkiewicz's character and do not mention him in passim) explicitly say that he considered himself a Russian and cannot be described as a Ukrainian.

So your statement "some reliable sources state his nationality as Ukrainian" was false, I assume it was simply due to the fact that you did not read these sources but pasted them as googled results, and it was not a blatant attempt on your part to deceive others. Marcelus (talk) 17:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

With regard to sources 1, 2, and 5, I'm concerned that your claim that "none of the sources describe Bortkiewicz as a "Ukrainian"" is again WP:ICANTHEARYOU.

(Also used 134.192.8.17, 50.169.82.253, and 167.102.146.19) 169.156.16.220 (talk) 18:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

1st calls him "Ukrainian-born" not "Ukrainian". 2nd doesn't say anything about his nationality or ethnicity. 5th likewise. Marcelus (talk) 18:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac accurately quoted the second and fifth references. Both list Ukraine next to Bortkiewicz' name. What do you think it means when source 5 similarly mentions Germany next to Robert Schumann's name and France next to Claude Debussy's? That this source just decided to put random countries there?

(Also used 134.192.8.17, 50.169.82.253, and 167.102.146.19) 169.156.16.220 (talk) 21:32, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the only mentions of his ethnicity/nationality I can find in archival news reports about him in English exclusively refer to him as Russian. Would be glad to cite these if needed. Keep in mind I'll be on and off from my PC today, so my reply may be a little slow. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Contemporary English-language reports? Of course they did. In the Russian empire Ukrainian identity was denied and nationality was an imperial concept. “Little Russian” was used to denigrate Ukrainians internally, but externally everything was just “Russian.”

The Soviet Union wasn’t much different in the way it treated nationalities, and externally it was commonly called “Russia” as long as it existed. Anyone who publicly identified as Ukrainian would have to explain what that meant, and it was easier not to bother.  —Michael Z. 20:00, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

This is all in response to your claim that “the country wasn't even existing at that time.” You selectively “debunk” individual words of my comments, introduce straw men “ethnicity” which I never claimed and selectively-interpreted “nationality,” while ignoring your own original false claim and what I am demonstrating through the sources: Bortkiewicz was from Ukraine (he even said he was from Ukraine himself, and I’m certain he didn’t mean “what is now Ukraine”). Shall I now accuse you of a blatant attempt on your part to deceive others and threaten to report you?

Ukraine existed. Bortkiewicz was from Ukraine. Multiple reliable sources list his country or birth place as Ukraine. Add to the above, the Library of Congress[20] and VIAF: “nationality or associated country: Ukraine.”[21]

You want to claim that when a reference says “Sergei Bortiewicz – Ukraine,” or calls him “Ukrainian-born,” or says his activity is “was connected with the eastern Ukraine,” or writes an entire essay about whether his “nationality” is Ukrainian or Polish, or discusses the effect of growing up surrounded by Ukrainian culture on his music it is definitely not indicating nationality, you are entitled to that opinion.

But go ahead and report me if it pleases you, so you can cut out the accusations here.  —Michael Z. 19:41, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

1. Ukraine wasn't existing as a country at the time of Bortkiewicz's birth. That's a fact.

2. My goal is not to "debunk" anything you say. I only demand that you use your sources without misrepresenting their content. Of the sources you presented none claim that Bortkiewicz was of Ukrainian nationality. Some claim that he was born in Ukraine. Others even contradict what you say, they explicitly state that Bortkiewicz cannot be called Ukrainian, and that he described himself as Russian. You can write a wall of text, but you will not change the fact that you have manipulated the source. I don't know if intentionally or not. Marcelus (talk) 19:57, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

They all say he was from Ukraine.

None of them say it “wasn’t existing as a country,” because that is disparaging nonsense. Then what was it existing as, since everyone agrees it was existing as something? You are the one pushing your personal view here.  —Michael Z. 20:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Ukraine wasn't exisiting as a country in 1877, it was a part of Russian Empire. But that's irrelevant really.

What matter is a fact that you are manipulating sources and present them dishonestly in order to "win" discussion. Don't do that, it's despicable. Marcelus (talk) 20:16, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Ukraine was existing as a country in 1877. The Russian empire was full of countries. All of the sources above, and Bortkiewicz and his contemporaries quoted in them, were referring to the country of Ukraine, which existed when he was born, long before that, and continues to exist today.

You’re talking yourself back in circles, apparently having declined my advice to learn the difference between country and state.

And now you’re blatantly accusing me of bad faith and calling me names. You’re wrong. You’re the one WP:HEARing selectively or not at all, and misinterpreting to justify your own accusations. I’m done talking to you.  —Michael Z. 20:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Your persistent changing of the subject and unwillingness to admit that you are wrong justifies my assumption that you are driven by ill will and deliberately building dishonest arguments by manipulating sources to win the discussion. Marcelus (talk) 20:39, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Sources say he was from Ukraine. The article should say he was from Ukraine. Not dishonest. Not manipulating anything.

By the way, my dictionary says a Ukrainian is a native or inhabitant of Ukraine, or a person of Ukrainian descent, so it is not wrong to call him a Ukrainian either. But as I wrote above, it is better to describe a subject’s national affiliations in more detail than with just an ambiguous adjective: Bortkiewicz was from Ukraine, of Polish ancestry, born a subject of the Russian empire, and later lived and worked in a number of other countries.  —Michael Z. 22:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

You literally said: That’s why some reliable sources state his nationality as Ukrainian, stop dodging. Marcelus (talk) 22:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Nationality: “the status of belonging to a particular nation” (Oxford Dictionary of English). I quoted statements of nationality above, for example “Bortkiewicz, Sergei (1877–1952)—Ukraine, Austria.”

I also suggested that they be stated more specifically than that.

This is getting tedious and disruptive. You recently called me names and accused me of bad faith, then almost immediately at-tagged me in a related thread so you could keep finding excuses to abuse me. I think you should just take a break and let the discussion continue without your repetitive and inappropriate input. We all know what you think, already.  —Michael Z. 13:48, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Please provide then sources that clearly states that Bortkiewicz belonged to the Ukrainian nation. If you are unable to do so then the case is closed. Marcelus (talk) 07:57, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

This is the edit that you did not respond to. You're still welcome to respond to it: @Mzajac accurately quoted the second and fifth references. Both list Ukraine next to Bortkiewicz' name. What do you think it means when source 5 similarly mentions Germany next to Robert Schumann's name and France next to Claude Debussy's? That this source just decided to put random countries there? (also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 11:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I see how this wording could create a legitimate concern making it incorrectly appear that Ukraine did not exist when Bortkiewicz was born. I don't see a good compromise to repair this opening section, so I'll have to withdraw my support for the proposed opening line and solely advocate for the Copernicus format, not mentioning Bortkiewicz as Russian, Ukrainian, or Polish in the lead.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 15:42, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Reason for revert of Marcelus' rollback

This user published an edit that added WP:RS for the subject's national and ethnic identities, including Ukrainian. The edit was supported by an extended RFE at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Determining Nationality: Is duress a factor?, which was linked from the main RFE. This edit was followed by two more edits, one from Achmad Rachmani, and one from CurryTime7-24. Marcelus responded by rolling back the article to the version before this user's edit.

Unfortunately, Marcelus did not explain the content reasons why their version should be favored. After this user's edit, Marcelus did not edit this talk page and only posted the corresponding discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Determining Nationality: Is duress a factor? once, to redirect users back to the talk page, but then Marcelus did not thereafter post on the talk page. Marcelus still has not. This prompted me to file a report for edit warring.

Marcelus subsequently posted two comments (first, second) on the admin noticeboard regarding the article content. Although these content discussions probably should have been posted in WP:TALK, I still make an effort to address Marcelus' concerns there.

Marcelus wrote in the first diff that "a consensus has not been established to recognise Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian and not to recognise him as Russian." This may reflect a misunderstanding of this user's edits. The edit Marcelus most recently reverted did not remove any content referring to Bortkiewicz as Russian. It just added content referring to Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian, and added multiple content citations, including two direct inline citations for the claim that he was Russian. Another compromise option I previously tried was to remove mention of both Bortkiewicz' Russian and Ukrainian identities. However, Marcelus reverted that too. Contrary to Marcelus' claims about consensus, Marcelus is the only user who has requested that the article should refer to Bortkiewicz as Russian without mentioning him as Ukrainian.

As for Marcelus' challenge to the sources referring to Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian, Marcelus abandoned that discussion when we had it on the Talk page. Marcelus' RFE says that I was "ignoring ongoing discussion", and Marcelus' first admin noticeboard diff says that I was "unilaterally ignor[ing]" Marcelus' points, but the record shows that Marcelus was the one ignoring ongoing discussion. Thus, I am concerned that Marcelus' comments regarding the discussion are WP:GASLIGHTING and WP:ICANTHEARYOU.

In a good faith attempt to follow proper procedure, I requested admin clarification on whether reverting would be permissible conduct for me in this situation (no response after nine hours).

By reverting, I am in no way claiming that there is WP:CONSENSUS that this version is the best. The discussions should continue regarding whether it is actually better to remove from the lead all mention of ethnicity/nationality. However, there is clear consensus that the article should not refer to Bortkiewicz as Russian without also referring to him as Ukrainian.

I'm only reverting the edit, not rolling back to a previous version more than one edit ago. This means that CurryTime7-24's edit will be preserved. I'm fine removing the Magrath source as long as the other two sources remain, and I'm fine with keeping the notice templates there while the discussion plays out (although to maintain WP:NPOV, similar notice templates may need to be added next to the Russian citations to accommodate Michael's concerns). I just don't agree with the application of WP:REPEATCITE and WP:REFBOMB. Both have exceptions where the cited content is controversial, as I think is clearly the case as evidenced by this discussion. So where CurryTime7-24 has contended that Bortkiewicz was Russian, I really think it would make sense to solidify that with a direct inline citation, if the first sentence remains this way.

(also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 13:07, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

"So where CurryTime7-24 has contended that Bortkiewicz was Russian, I really think it would make sense to solidify that with a direct inline citation, if the first sentence remains this way."

I did, with the citation from The New Grove, which is why I amended the article in January and reverted edits that contradicted the source. Previously the article only mentioned his being Ukrainian with no source.

If editors wish to deny evidence, including the subject's own statements, about their national identity, then continued discussion is pointless. Again, the best compromise is to omit any mentions of Bortkiewicz's nationalities in the lead as these were not important; neither to his career, nor to the countries that he legally was a citizen of or those who wish to claim him posthumously.

Would be interested to hear if @Mellk and @Aza24 have any insight to help move on from this impasse.

By the way, can the IP editor decide once and for all where debate on this matter will be held and finalized? It is not helpful that they keep jumping from this discussion to the one on the article talk page and back. I'm sure it's not their intention, but their doing so makes it confusing for interested editors to determine at which discussion the outcome will settle this issue once and for all. (Addendum: This is the Bortkiewicz talk page discussion. Missed that in the confusion between this and the other discussion, but it confirms my point.) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:49, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Why did you remove Sergei Bortkiewicz from the categories Ukrainian classical pianists, Ukrainian classical composers, Ukrainian emigrants to Austria, and Ukrainian emigrants to Germany, while similar Russian categories remain in effect? You didn't mention this change in your RFR. If you believe (as I likewise would be happy to accept) that a compromise would be to omit any mentions of Bortkiewicz's nationalities in the lead, then why did you just remove only the mentions of Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian? Why didn't you also remove the reference to Bortkiewicz as Russian? This discussion has been open for almost five days, and many users have had a chance to weigh in. What specific necessary criteria for WP:CONSENSUS do you believe are in question? If you can't name specific and reasonable criteria for consensus that you're looking for to act on the compromise version that you propose, then I'm concerned that you're just WP:STONEWALLING in indefinite defense of a non-WP:NPOV version that you don't even claim to support. (also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 19:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I can't speak for why and what about in other articles I don't know about—I'm not the editor-in-chief of Wikipedia. Please stop trying to confuse the discussion.

According to the source I pulled up for Bortkiewicz in January, it said he was Russian and made no mention of him being Ukrainian. Therefore, I removed all references that said otherwise because they contradicted the source. As for the source itself, it's The New Grove. Your implication that it's somehow a sub-standard or dubious source is a very fringe opinion. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 23:19, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Grove is a respected WP:RS. I wouldn't question it, and I didn't. Notice how in my previous edit, I incorporated Grove as a direct inline citation right after the word "Russian", so that it made it clear that Grove considered Bortkiewicz Russian. Despite our disagreement about WP:REPEATCITE and WP:REFBOMB, that was my genuine attempt to respect the authority of Grove.

However, your decision to remove "Ukrainian" and the WP:RS associating Bortkiewicz with Ukraine can only be WP:NPOV if this is part of a compromise in which the article also no longer calls Bortkiewicz Russian, even though WP:RS do call him Russian. This compromise has received considerable support. You first suggested describing Bortkiewicz as neither Russian nor Ukrainian in the lead. Alaexis suggested this too, followed by @Trovatore here, you again, and @David Eppstein here, @SMcCandlish here, and finally you here again. Based on this WP:CONSENSUS, I will remove both "Russian" and "Austrian" from the first sentence. Although I personally don't agree with removing "Austrian", I believe this is an acceptable WP:COMPROMISE, and some of the editors I mentioned seem to disfavor any mention of "Austrian" in the lead. I hope that this will be a compromise where we can continue on to discuss the more substantive parts of the article in the body.

I don't see any comment from you on why you removed the four Ukrainian categories. I will restore them. Unlike the first sentence, categories don't need to be omitted just because they're controversial. I think this is consistent with the discussion, the body and the categories can still contain correct information about Bortkiewicz. However, I'm still open to a variety of ideas that as long as they don't include certain documented identities while ignoring others.

I remind you that WP:REVERT is not the only way to change the article for the better. If you really want "Russian" back in the first sentence, you can put "Ukrainian" back in the first sentence as well, and cite both with WP:RS. If you simply revert, this is a message that you support the status quo of a one-sided presentation of Bortkiewicz as Russian but not Ukrainian. It's inadvisable to revert simply due to claims of no consensus. You have not identified what criteria for consensus you believe are necessary and lacking. This is a danger sign for WP:STONEWALLING.

(also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 01:23, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Tend to agree with this. Either put all the nationalities in the lead sentence, or save them all for more explanation later, preferably the latter.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:29, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Yet another dishonest personal attack with snide insinuations that is more a projection of your own agenda than anything else. I never "really wanted" Bortkiewicz to be Russian. Had The New Grove said he was Ukrainian, Paraguayan, Blefuscundian, or whatever, I would have edited accordingly. My only concern, as I said at least once before, was ensuring the information added to the article did not contradict or falsify what the source actually said.

I also don't care about adding anything to the lead and am puzzled why you needed to warn me about it. According to your own statement, this compromise version of the lead is exactly what I want. Doesn't that mean you did my bidding then? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:23, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

By material implication, it can't be a personal attack. Every statement starting with "If you really want "Russian" back" is true if you don't actually want "Russian" back. I never intended it as a personal attack.

I appreciate your note to editors. I find it thoughtful and neutral. I hope that clears up the issue then (hopefully). Perhaps I did your bidding. I might even call that a successful compromise. (also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 03:01, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

As such, we are looking for the common designation of Bortkiewicz's nationality by reliable secondary sources focused on the topic, and so far Grove is clear in saying "Austrian composer of Russia descent". The only other option I could see is "Austrian composer of Russian or Ukrainian descent" (with an accompanying note to explain the supposed discrepency), based on the abstract of this article. But unfortunately, I don't have time to evaluate the claim of the Kościelak-Nadolska article (the reliability of which is suspect, as it seems to have been written to just prove a polish lineage for Bortkiewicz), nor do I have the time to read the wall(s) of text above.Aza24 (talk) 20:48, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I hope you can also review the sources that tie Bortkiewicz to Ukraine, presented in this diff. Three of these sources were added to the article before being removed by Marcelus and CurryTime7-24. However, I'm inclined to move forward with CurryTime7-24's proposal to remove all references to nationality and ethnicity from the first sentence, just like the Copernicus example at MOS:ETHNICITY. No one ever opposed this proposal, so WP:CONSENSUS is assumed, and this would fix the current situation in which the subject is described as Russian at the same time that WP:RS describing him as Ukrainian are excluded from the article. (also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 21:05, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

@Marcelus What do you think? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 23:22, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24 and @Aza24: So far, no one has pointed to any reliable source that clearly states that Bortkiewicz was of Ukrainian nationality or that he was a Ukrainian. Sources that claim that he was born in Ukraine, was associated with Ukraine or lived there do not meet this requirement. This is a clear requirement under Wikipedia's rules. That's basically a bottom line of our discussion.

Contrary to what IP accuses me of, I did not abandon any of the discussions, I simply did not have access to the Internet over the weekend, moreover, I see no need to repeat during the discussion what has already been said once. IP tries to overtalk everyone by starting multiple discussions on the same topic, writing long essays, dragging out the discussion, twisting the arguments of others, etc. This is unacceptable behavior and a trap that I do not intend to fall into.

Bortkiewicz's Polish origins are mentioned by many sources (for example: Jeremiah A. Johnson's Echoes of the Past: Stylistic and Compositional Influences in the Music of Sergei Bortkevich). Koscielak-Nadolska is the best source because she has thoroughly researched the roots of Bortkiewicz and his family. There is no reason to remove the mention of the composer's Polish origins. None of the sources also mention that Bortkiewicz had any Ukrainian descent, so this is WP:OR.

To summarize: there is no reason to remove from the article about Bortkiewicz the mention of his Russian and Austrian nationality and Polish derivations, none of the sources describe him as a Ukrainian artist, so we can't include that. Marcelus (talk) 07:35, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I most recently engaged your comments about the Ukrainian sources here.

Lack of internet access doesn't explain why you reverted without discussing. If you had internet access to revert, you had internet access to discuss. If you only had time for one, I've got to think that responding to the RFE discussion would have been a more productive use of time than reverting an edit that was supported by a thorough RFE. If you thought the necessary discussion had already been had, then you could write that in a discussion response to the RFE. Otherwise, we can't read your mind and we can only call out a violation of WP:TALKDONTREVERT. (also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 11:50, 14 August 2023 (UTC)