Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ludwig Ross/archive1

Ludwig Ross

Ludwig Ross (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Featured article candidates/Ludwig Ross/archive1

Nominator(s): UndercoverClassicist (talk) 13:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

This article is about the first (real) head of the Greek Archaeological Service, the meticulous, scholarly and complex Ludwig Ross. One of the many Germans to make the journey to Greece in the early years of independence, Ross played a major role in the establishment of the practice of archaeology in Greece and the early restorations on the Acropolis of Athens. He is also something of a tragic figure: he considered himself a foreigner in his native Denmark, was eventually rejected and effectively exiled by his adoptive Greek homeland, and died in misery having never really managed to integrate into German academia during the final phase of his career. I've reviewed the article recently but wrote it a little while ago; it underwent a thorough and thoughtful GA nomination conducted by User:Mike Christie. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 13:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Image review

• Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
  • Got them all now. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
• Suggest adding alt text
  • Again, think I've got them all now. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
• File:Ludwig_Ross_-_Imagines_philologorum.jpg is tagged as lacking author information
  • Is that a problem, given that we've got publisher information (Alfred Gudeman, 1911) which puts it into the public domain regardless of who the author is? If it's from Imagines Philologorum, it will be a portrait by someone else that Gudeman collected. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
    • The image currently has a tag of author life+70; unless this was a work for hire I don't think publisher can substitute. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

      OK, but we can replace that tag with {{PD-US-expired}}, surely? As it's a photograph, it's got to be at least 170 years old (the subject died in 1853), which I think covers us for life+70. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• File:AcropolisatathensSitePlanPeripatos.svg is missing a data source
  • Yes, it is... which is a problem given that it's a source for quite a lot of other valuable images. Swapped for [:File:Plan Acropolis of Athens.svg], which has good sources. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
• File:Hansen_Athena_Nike_1836.png: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Ludwig_Ross_by_Georgios_Varouchas_1870.jpg
  • On the Hansen painting: Hansen donated his work to the library of the Academy of Fine Arts in Copenhagen after his death in 1883. Haugsted says he exhibited much of his work from Greece in 1857, but doesn't explicitly say which paintings this includes. Equally, I can't find any evidence that it was published until its current web iteration (it might be in Haugsted?), so might we have a case for PD-unpublished? UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
    • When does the web iteration date to? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

      2010. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:09, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  • Varouchas: I don't have my physical copy of Haugsted for the next couple of weeks; that might have some information on the portrait, though I suspect we'll find that we can only show that it's been exhibited within the university, which probably isn't enough to count as publication? I'm fairly sure that one has been in print (I'm almost certain it's in Haugsted). UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Let's hold off on answering this until you have Haugsted and can see what it says. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
• File:Athens_University_Museum.jpg needs a tag for the original work
  • Now has one. I forgot that Greece doesn't have FoP. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
• File:Bibliothek_des_Deutschen_Archäologischen_Instituts_Athen_14_(cropped_2).JPG: what is the artist's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:58, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
  • I have no idea; I can't find any information about the artist at all. There's an old photograph here, but in the absence of a definite date I don't think we're likely to get far here. Removed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
    • I thought I'd done rather better than that; thanks for picking all these up, Nikki. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Bneu2013

• What exactly does "reconstruction" of the Indo-European language family refer to? Does this mean reviving an obsolete language?
  • Yup: or at least, working out what the extinct language was like. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Article says his publications were used by contemporary scholars. Are they still used?
  • They've generally been superseded by more complete corpora, though people still cite them in the interest of showing their scholarly workings. You wouldn't generally reach for one of his books when starting a course of Greek epigraphy, though. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Last lead sentence is borderline run-on; I suggest splitting.
  • Split; still not sure it's great. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
    • It's good. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Fourth sentence in the second paragraph of "Early life" is a run-on.
  • Split.

UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• • • Second split sentence is kind of long, but reads better. I think we can let this pass. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Inconsistent use of single/double quote marks around "Fund for the Public Benefit"; double seems right.
  • Agreed; done. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Should ref 14 be moved to after "1830;"?
  • I don't think Minner included the date: from memory, the key thing there was Nitzch. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
    • I haven't checked, but I'm guessing ref 1 covers the date.
• Will Template:Inflation work with the monetary figure. Also, it looks like the 2023 value is not cited.
  • I'm not sure how to get it to work properly with currencies that no longer exist, but I'll gladly take a steer here. I can't actually remember where I got that from; it might well be Haugsted, in which case the year should be 1996 (I might then have inflated it manually). I don't have my hands on Haugsted at the moment, but will check when I do. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Ok. You might want to ask someone who understands this template better than I do. I've only ever used it with existing currencies.
      • When I get hold of Haugsted, I'll see if there's a good way to resolve this. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:44, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Citation error in the last sentence of the last paragraph of "Early life".
  • That was ugly. Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Archaeological career in Greece

• (edit conflict) - "He was made deputy curator of antiquities at the Archaeological Museum of Napoleon, then capital of Greece..." - this reads like the museum was the capital.
  • Not sure about that one (compare: "King Charles lives in Buckingham Palace, a huge, gilded waste of money with fourteen bathrooms"). Can't see an obvious rephrase that doesn't make a mess, but happy to take a suggestion. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
    • I see what you mean. Considering that this wasn't a place (or city) that I was familiar with, as opposed to Buckingham Palace for example, I was initially confused. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
      • A capital is, by definition, a city (or at least a settlement), so I'm not sure there's a real ambiguity here; I'd quite like to keep the museum's proper name rather than something like "the archaeological museum in Nafplion". UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• First sentence of second paragraph is a run-on.
  • Do you mean Tension existed between the Greek state's aim of conserving Athens's ancient monuments, the Acropolis's role as a military fortification, and the needs of the expanding city.? I'm not seeing that if so. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
    • No, I was referring to Ross travelled to the Mycenaean site of Tiryns.... Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
      • Ah yes: split. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Work on the Acropolis of Athens

• Space after ref 34.
  • Gone. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Is the colon after "archaeological park" supposed to be a semicolon? Same as in next sentences.
  • No; the colon helps to reinforce that there's a strong relationship between the two clauses (in the first case, that the second is the opposite of what might have been expected). Second one is now a full stop. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Should "palm-tree" be hyphenated?
  • It's a bit old-fashioned, perhaps, but intentional and fits common usage. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Suggest changing the colon after "August" to a period.
  • Done UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Stray period after "Megali Panagia; looks like it's supposed to be a comma.
  • Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Second sentence of final paragraph is a run-on.
  • Split and slightly rearranged. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Sentence that begins with "At a time when relatively few Greek..." is a run-on.
  • Split. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

"Naval Records Affair" and resignation as Ephor General

• First sentence is borderline run-on. Suggest splitting.
  • Split. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Link "Athenian navy" to "Athenian military".
  • I've linked it to the redirect which goes there, in case someone comes along and makes that page. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Professorship at Athens

• Should we include an inflation adjustment for Ross's salary?
  • Better to contextualise; I think: simply putting it into Euros is often unhelpful, as it doesn't account for spending power. I've contextualised with an EFN which seems to fit the general scholarly sense that this was reasonable but not lavish. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Makes sense. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• Citation error in first sentence of fourth paragraph.
  • Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• "sufficiently fluently" doesn't sound grammatical; suggest rewording to something like "in which he was sufficiently fluent"
  • I'm not sure; it's equivalent to sufficiently well (adverb modifying adverb), and often used in HQRS. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • As an American, I don't recall hearing people use two consecutive -ly adverbs, but maybe this is common in other parts of the English speaking world. I think we can let this pass. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• Link "Asia Minor" to "Anatolia". I would also split this sentence.
  • Done on both counts. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Swap "who opposed the presence of foreigners in Greek public life" and "as Prime Minister in 1841".
  • That reads slightly wrong, given that who really wants to stand as close as possible to its antecedent, but I'll have a think about how to rephrase the whole thing. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Ok, I see now. I think we can let this pass. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• In first sentence of final paragraph, I would change second 1843 to "of that year" or something appropriate.
  • Done.

Professorship at Halle

• Who/what is Humboldt in the first sentence? Is it the person mentioned later in the paragraph?
  • Yup: reordered.
• Link to Friedrich Wilhelm IV of Prussia.
  • Frederick William IV of Prussia is linked in the preceding sentence. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • ...but therefore shouldn't be given two names in two sentences. Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
      • Typo in the link. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

        Fixed now. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 07:17, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

• Second sentence of third-to-last paragraph is a long run-on. I see this being split possibly into three sentences.
  • Split in two; I think it's better now. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Personal life, death and legacy

• Per MOS:SEASON, replace "spring of 1847" with something else appropriate, like "early 1847 or the month this occurred (I know this is sometimes complicated by what the source says).
  • I'm actually not sure it is the Spring; the source says Frühjahr, which I suspect is more like "early in the year" than "Spring" (Frühlingzeit). Changed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Was Ross's illness a reason for his suicide?
  • This is one I'm not happy touching too much; the source to which this bit traces back goes into quite considerable detail about Ross's methods and alleged motives, but not from, as far as I can tell, any position of knowledge. They attribute it to generalised misery and Weltschmertz, but I strongly suspect that mostly comes from a desire to romanticise Ross as a tortured genius and to give him some grandeur in death. One might sensibly infer that his increasing pain was a contributing factor, but I don't think we can ever know - he never explained himself - and frankly I think it's a bit irresponsible to be too speculative about "justifying" suicide. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • That's fair. If the reason were known, I would say include it, but if not, I say leave it as-is. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Good eye and good points throughout: thank you for these and for taking the time to review. I think I've replied to all of them: mostly straightforwardly done. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
    • You're welcome. I just need to review the sources, and then I should be able to support. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Source review

• Add |via=Google Books and |via=Internet Archive to all of the sources that were retrieved through these sites.
  • Done for all those with an url= to those sites. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 07:23, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• Do we need to include the full date for the footnotes that cite The Spectator Supplement, instead of just the year?
  • The Spectator is published every week, so I think so: there would have been about 52 different issues that year. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 07:23, 12 August 2023 (UTC) I musunderstood: yes in the biblio, not sure it's necessary for the footnotes (neater with just the year). On the grounds that we wouldn't necessarily expect to be able to identify the source from the sfn alone, changed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 07:26, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Support pending a citation for the present-day valuation of the defunct currency. Glad to review, and hoping someone will be willing to pick up one of my FACs. Bneu2013 (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Golden

• I wouldn't wikilink German in the first sentence per MOS:OVERLINK.
  • Agreed (especially as it makes a double-bluelink). UndercoverClassicist (talk) 15:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
• independent Kingdom of Greece - Is "independent" necessary here?
  • It's a bit of a tautology (there never was a non-independent Kingdom of Greece), but it's important to establish that a) Greece is newly independent and b) Greece is newly a monarchy. I don't think we should rely on our readers' knowing that the establishment of the Greek monarchy followed, with a short but important delay, Greece's independence. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 15:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
• While at Kiel, Ross met his friend and future travelling companion, the philologist Peter Wilhelm Forchhammer. - It is not clear whether he became friends with Forchhammer during or prior to this meeting. Can you clarify it?
  • I can't; one assumes that they became friends at university. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 15:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
• with a foreword by his friend Otto Jahn. - It would be interesting to learn more about Jahn and his friendship with Ross. —
  • It would; sadly, I have yet to do so or find anyone else who has done so and written about it. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 15:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

  I did find one reference that the two met at Kiel; honestly, I wouldn't hang my hat on it, but Jahn did study (and later teach) there, so it seems like the most sensible place for it. Added that. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:21, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Golden ^talk 13:41, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the replies, UndercoverClassicist. Happy to support. — Golden ^talk 15:56, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie

Some minor prose suggestions:

• "When Ludwig was four years old, his father moved to the Gut Altekoppel estate in Bornhöved, which he managed and later acquired. Their five sons and three daughters ..." Suggest "his father moved the family" or "the family moved", so as to provide a nearer referent for "their" in the next sentence".
  • Yes, that one was a bit wonky. Gone with the first option. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
• "Ross's work on the Acropolis began in January 1835, and has been described as the first systematic excavation of the site." If the source is authoritative enough, could we make this "was the first", rather than hedging?
  • It's a bit hedgy. The problem is that it's very much not the first archaeological work on the Acropolis: most notoriously, you've got Elgin who, fairly systematically, removes sculptures from most of the major temples from 1801. The Ottomans also undertook a lot of building and repurposing, such as the construction of the Parthenon mosque, which must have involved excavation: we might say that this wasn't scientific study as we understand it, but you could probably level the same charge at Ross. Ross was definitely a more careful and methodical man than his predecessors, but I'm a little uncomfortable drawing a sharp line to say that what he did was "systematic" and that nothing before "counts": I'm also not keen to dive completely into the myth that the story of Greek archaeology starts with independence in 1821. Perhaps I'm being a bit precious about this one, though. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

    I think that's useful background. If you can summarize something like that in a couple of sentences in a footnote I think that would be worth it. Otherwise I think the current wording sounds more definite than it really should. Perhaps it could just be cut, if we can't give it appropriate context? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:05, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• You link disiecta membra, but it seems an unnecessarily obscure way to say fragments, or remains. I've read quite a few archaeology papers but haven't run into this term before. Is it the standard term for this site? Or does it have a specific meaning that I'm not picking up from the linked article?
  • It is the general term used in this particular context (the partial bits of an ancient monument left after time and looting have done away with most of them). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 23:55, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

    OK in that case -- just wanted to be sure the usage was justified., Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:21, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• The link to assistant professor seems not to be very useful; you say "German-style" but there's nothing to explain that in the target article.
  • It was a bit of a fudge, because Palagia uses the Greek: I've read around a bit more and it's fairly clearly equivalent to the German idea of Privatdozenten, so I've linked there with a brief explanation. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
• You redlink Bavarocracy in the body of the article; suggest linking it in the lead too.
  • Done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
• "He took a leave of absence for about half of 1839 and all of 1842": suggest "He took leaves of absence".
  • Yes - done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Forgive me for putting my oar in here, but "leaves of absence" looks rather odd to me, and I'd vote for "he took leave of absence..." Tim riley talk 17:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

      Yes, I think that's right: leave here in its technical meaning of "permission to lapse from normal expectations". We'd certainly be fine saying '"he took leave twice, in 1839 and 1842", though that sounds more appropriate to a military context. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:09, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

      I admit it's not the most natural usage; I don't think it's technically wrong, but I don't mind being outvoted here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:05, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

More to come. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:23, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• "The project was financed by the Prussian Ministry of Culture and Friedrich Wilhelm, to whom Humboldt had recommended the project." Can we avoid the repetition of "project"?
• I wouldn't oppose for this, but I would suggest linking to the Danish Wikipedia's article on Haugsted rather than to the Wikidata page, which is going to confuse most readers who follow the link.
• You mentioned that he "died in misery" in the introduction to this FAC, but I don't see anything to that effect in the article -- is there anything solid enough to add?

That's everything. All minor points; a fine article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:18, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Support from Tim riley

Two minor suggestions, neither of which affects my support:

• Lead

• He was also a significant figure ... was particularly significant" – I remind you of the good advice in Plain Words about "significant": "This is a good and useful word, but it has a special flavour of its own and it should not be thoughtlessly used as a mere variant of important, considerable, appreciable, or quite large ... it ought to be used only where there is a ready answer to the reader's unspoken question 'Significant, is it? And what does it signify?' (There's another stray "significant in the last sentence of the article, too.)

• Work on the Acropolis of Athens (1834–1836)

• Throughout his excavations on the Acropolis, he published his results – this far through the paragraph it's a long time since we had Ross's name mentioned, and perhaps it might be helpful to add it here.

Nothing to cause alarm and despondency there, and I have no hesitation in adding my support for the elevation of this article. It's a cracking read (I lost count of the number of times I muttered "Good Lord!" when reading it), well and widely referenced, evidently balanced and neutral and admirably illustrated. Meets all the FA criteria in my view. Tim riley talk 17:51, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• Many thanks for these, Tim. You are quite right on significant: all three now changed. I've actually split that long paragraph at the sentence you indicated, and added Ross's name there. Many thanks. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:06, 16 August 2023 (UTC)