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August 30

Exploring the Applicability of the 'Business' Definition in Indian Central GST Legislation to Charitable Trusts

Referring to the Indian Central GST legislation's definition of "business," I'm exploring whether charitable trusts fall under the "business" category according to the description provided below. I'm particularly curious about how this classification applies to the charitable sector.

The Central Goods and Services Tax legislation's Clause 17 defines "business" as follows:

"business" includes –– (a) any trade, commerce, manufacture, profession, vocation, adventure, wager or any other similar activity, whether or not it is for a pecuniary benefit; (b) any activity or transaction in connection with or incidental or ancillary to sub-clause (a); (c) any activity or transaction in the nature of sub-clause (a), whether or not there is volume, frequency, continuity or regularity of such transaction; (d) supply or acquisition of goods including capital goods and services in connection with commencement or closure of business; (e) provision by a club, association, society, or any such body (for a subscription or any other consideration) of the facilities or benefits to its members; (f) admission, for a consideration, of persons to any premises; (g) services supplied by a person as the holder of an office which has been accepted by him in the course or furtherance of his trade, profession or vocation; (h) [activities of a race club including by way of totalisator or a license to book maker or activities of a licensed book maker in such club; and]5 (i) any activity or transaction undertaken by the Central Government, a State Government or any local authority in which they are engaged as public authorities;" Grotesquetruth (talk) 14:33, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Charitable trusts have their own statutes. NPOs in India exist as trusts (Public charitable trusts, non revocable) , societies, and limited not-for-profit companies (I'm not sure trusts can exist currently otherwise than Public). NPOs provided Services: education and healthcare services are exempt under GST, income from some service activities are under exemption under a predetermined threshold limit. Regarding funding of the charity, provisions exist. --Askedonty (talk) 14:51, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

how are NPOs treated under Indian GST? Grotesquetruth (talk) 15:03, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is noone to be specifically treated under GST (that's a GST difference with many aspects of the other kinds of taxations). With GST activities are taxed with the exception of specific provisions related to the nature of the activity. For example, GST may be set differently between classes of products. In India, education and healthcare services are exempted if they are dispensed by charities. If someone behind makes profit out of these services that will be under taxation, if the law is to be enforced.

To put things otherwise, like a business as stipulated in sub-clause (a) any trade - above: not for pecuniary benefit, a NPO would become a GST producer, or supplier, just as any other, as soon as it would be supplying goods or services, or both, that are liable to tax or not wholly exempt from tax under the Central Goods and Services Tax Act or under the Integrated Goods and Services Tax Act: India Code, Central Goods and Services Tax Act, 2017 ( NPOs as well as corporations by the way deemed jurisdic persons under the Indian law, which must be explaining the definition of "business" the way it's done with Clause 17 ).<updated> --Askedonty (talk) 17:38, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Indian GST clauses, is there a specific exemption for education and healthcare services with the assumption that if they be dispensed by charities like you mentioned? Can these services provided by charitable organizations be exempt from GST, and would any profits made from these services be subject to taxation under the GST law? Grotesquetruth (talk) 17:26, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the GST clauses I think its specifies that "the government may enact such and such exception, for the public good", "to be approved by such assembly", etc. In fact, most of those taxation exemptions (educational etc) are only identical for their objects to exemptions specified in older legislations (1961) and other. As for profits, see the part <updated> above. --Askedonty (talk) 17:38, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We do not offer tax or legal advice. Please seek professional advice. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 00:03, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Color wheel

Why do artists continue to use the ROYGBP color wheel and not the scientific RYGCBM color wheel?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:15, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neither color wheel is "Scientific". The colors we use (and the names we give them) are a combination of linguistics, psychology, and aesthetics. Color itself is qualia, which is to say, it is a purely psychological phenomenon, with no real basis in physics. The color wheel is primarily a tool used by graphic designers and artists to aid in choosing color schemes for certain aesthetic effects. In that way, it is analogous to the circle of fifths for musicians; it is a visual aid that allows one to understand relationships to aid in composition and analysis. --Jayron 32 16:23, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But the circle of fifths has a basis in physics; a fifth is the frequency ratio 2:3. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:10, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but that's not why it is useful. It is useful because it helps composers and musicians understand the relationships between notes, chords, and key centers so as to compose aesthetically pleasing music. Which is exactly why the color wheel is useful, it helps artists and designers choose color schemes to compose aesthetically pleasing visual art. --Jayron 32 17:02, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is an article for ROYGBIP; should RYGCBM link somewhere? 136.54.106.120 (talk) 18:47, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I thought it was Roy G. Biv. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:E23B (talk) 18:52, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your IP address tells me you're in California. I'm in the state of Victoria, Australia. I had never heard of Roy G. Biv until I met my wife, who grew up 1400 miles away in Queensland. We weren't taught any clever acronyms for remembering the colours. HiLo48 (talk) 08:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:HiLo48, I think you and I are of a similar age. I had my primary school education in NSW, and I have a clear memory of being taught about Roy G Biv. It regularly crops up in TV quiz questions, so that seems to assume people of all ages are aware of it. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The questions on most Australian TV quiz show come from Sydney. HiLo48 (talk) 21:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, but I went to Catholic primary schools, whose teachers tended to be posted anywhere in the nation. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I find it hard to believe that people of all age are still watching TV somewhere, even in Australia. --Askedonty (talk) 19:44, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I watch some TV and I'm definitely a person of all ages. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:17, 2 September 2023 (UTC) [reply]

Yeah, very interesting - Reminds me of that joke about a spider that was stucked inside the telescope. That might have been about the shift from ROY to RYG, which was previsible to the well connected (we small fry were to get fascinated by the ubiquitous label AC/DC on the black backside tag of the fridge's transistor radio, that could work on C batteries, compare with the vacuum tube type). --Askedonty (talk) 21:39, 2 September 2023 (UTC) [reply]

In England, it always used to be "Richard of York Gave Battle In Vain". Not sure that modern schoolchildren know who Richard of York was. Alansplodge (talk) 09:19, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not always, in the reverse order they are "Virgins In Bed Give You Oral Relief". Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:10, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In that vein, I'm curious as to why the person who created the article went on to edit "Anal sex" three minutes later (although seeing the original version it's unsurprising). I never heard "Richard of York Gave Battle In Vain" till today, or of "Roy G. Biv." The source book in the article is American - we were taught "Read Out Your Green Book In Verse." The alternative version, in which the fourth word is changed, seems a tad disrespectful. 2A00:23A8:4015:F501:6D20:FFB9:EB08:D5A2 (talk) 16:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was just reflecting in my study, green had to be one of the Primary Colors: Natural Color System. Of course. --Askedonty (talk) 16:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

English North America in the Civil War

The discussion above about Thomas Rolfe made me wonder about English North America during the Civil War, and with great interest I found and read English overseas possessions in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms. The article discusses some colonies' support for the Parliamentary cause, and Parliamentary efforts to suppress royalist governments in some colonies, but it doesn't much discuss intercolonial relations. Was there fighting in North America between official forces or privateers of the different colonies (either before or after the regicide), or did they tend to tolerate each other? The article notes Virginia's desperate war with the Indians during the late years of the Civil War, and of course these civilised outposts were small and far separated from each other, but since some colonists returned to England to fight, I wondered if perhaps there was official strife between Royalist and Parliamentary colonies. The period conflict articles I've found are almost all against the Indians or foreign powers (e.g. Western Design), and the only exceptions are Plundering Time and Battle of the Severn, which appear to be a Maryland civil war, rather than warring between colonies. Nyttend (talk) 20:55, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I saw that already, but it was an action of Parliament (not any colonial legislature), and the article doesn't discuss the extent to which it was followed. Nyttend (talk) 21:44, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the background information in it about the ways the different colonies had reacted might be of interest. Sorry to have troubled you. DuncanHill (talk) 21:49, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) There was a strong Puritan tradition in the colonies (think: Pilgrim Fathers) which would tend to make them align with Parliamentary forces. Remember that the Civil War was not simply about Crown versus parliament, but also the Anglican establishment versus a more fundamental Christianity. Indeed, one of my ancestors left England for the colonies during the early Stuart period (can't recall if it was James VI/I or Charles I), only to return under the Commonwealth when it was safe to do so. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:54, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There was also a strong element of Protestantism v. Catholicism, with many in England being fearful of the Monarchy's marital connections to and tolerance of the latter. This was not just religious bigotry – the Catholic nations of Europe, encouraged by the Papacy, had long considered and occasionally attempted military invasions of Britain, which had they succeeded might have resulted in wholesale executions of Protestants. And yes, Catholics were also persecuted in Britain – the rivalry was lethally vicious at a level difficult to imagine today. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 00:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have an idea that several prominent English families decamped to the American colonies to avoid paying ship money, the only tax that Charles could levy without the consent of Parliament and which was the spark that eventually ignited the war (see the Five Members). Something about taxation without representation. Alansplodge (talk) 09:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably you're talking about the English Civil War. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:28, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, obviously. Everyone else in this discussion knows which civil war they're talking about. --Viennese Waltz 07:56, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Though not necessarily every reader of this section. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:55, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You could easily have worked it out for yourself. Most of us seem to have done so without too much difficulty. --Viennese Waltz 10:10, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which I did. I posted the link for the benefit of other readers. I could have changed the heading instead. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:01, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which Civil War were you worried people might confuse it with? DuncanHill (talk) 17:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You'd have to ask them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:47, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ask who, exactly? These hypothetical people who you think might have got confused? How do you suggest we approach them? --Viennese Waltz 07:10, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Massachusetts Bay Colony#Colonial history has some information, as does Colony of Virginia#English Civil War and Commonwealth (1642–1660). Massachusetts Bay and Virginia were the two most significant colonies at the time, indeed many of the other of the original Thirteen Colonies were founded after the Interregnum. The narrative is predictable from what I know about colonial history, Massachusetts Bay broadly supported the Parliamentarians, being of the same Puritan tradition as many of them, while the Virginians tended to be supportive of the crown, indeed I hadn't thought of it, but the University of Virginia sports teams are known as the Virginia Cavaliers, belieing their loyalties during the conflict. Also see Virginia Cavaliers (historical). --Jayron 32 14:15, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also a little bit more in the article Province of Maryland. --Jayron 32 14:17, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See also the Battle of the Severn (Maryland, 1655). —— Shakescene (talk) 17:49, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the Parliamentary side would have had no appeal at all for the Catholics in Maryland. On the original question, I imagine there was no actual fighting in North America, just as there was not in large parts of Britain. Most people were just thankful not to be involved, and enthusiasts could travel to where the armies were. Also the population was small and very spread out, not to mention with an Indian frontier. The big Parliamentary stronghold in the New World was Jamaica after Cromwell took it from the Spanish in 1655, and large plantations were handed out to Parliamentary sympathisers. Johnbod (talk) 16:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

August 31

Pétain's degradation

An interesting question has arisen about Philippe Pétain, the disgraced French former hero. Our article says "After his conviction, the court stripped Pétain of all military ranks and honours, including the distinction of Marshal of France", but later says that the title Marshal of France was "The sole award retained following his trial in 1945". The French article Philippe Pétain says he was stripped of the title, as does the French article Maréchal de France. I should thank @Ovenel: for noticing the problem and raising it at Talk:Philippe Pétain. So - what was it? Did the process of dégradation nationale strip him of the rank or title of Marshal of France or didn't it? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:14, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Elinruby: @Mathglot: —— Shakescene (talk) 18:12, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Responded at Talk:Philippe Pétain, where further discussion should be addressed. Mathglot (talk) 18:32, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot: I asked here because over a month had passed on the talk page since it was raised there. Please can people answer here. DuncanHill (talk) 18:34, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, this is not the optimal location for discussing this. The proper venue for discussing a question directly related to the content of a Wikipedia article, is the talk page of the article. Reference desk can be used for off-Wikipedia questions, even questions unrelated to any Wikipedia article. While there is no prohibition for using it for something relating to a Wikipedia article, there is a disadvantage in doing so, in that the editors concerned with questions about Philippe Pétain won't necessarily find it here. Additionally, once this discussion is archived, it will be much more difficult to find if it's archived here, whereas if archived at the Talk:Philippe Pétain archives, the built-in archive search box at the top of the Pétain page will find it, but only if the discussion is held there. Mathglot (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you are allowed to use the RefDesks to ask for references, which can then be used to improve articles. However, after wading through some of these, thereby severely testing my very rusty French comprehension, I have drawn a blank on the issue. Alansplodge (talk) 17:25, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Alansplodge; the closing of the discussion by the OP, and their closing statement, is almost certainly a misunderstanding of what Mathglot was saying to them (even ignoring the fact that the answers by one person do not represent anything like standard procedure). Mathglots opinion on the use of the ref desks in this case is really just the feelings of one person, and the OP should have given them that much weight. Secondly, Mathglot is correct in the sense that article talk pages do have the advantage of preserving discussions of article content in close proximity to the page. The ref desk is a perfectly good place to attract attention to issues such as this, and I invite @DuncanHill: to reopen their discussion. There are could be other answers given by many other people than just Mathglot, and if Mathglots answer is insufficient for DuncanHill's purpose, they are not required to give it any heed. --Jayron 32 18:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The primary point of the Reference Desk is article improvement. Nyttend (talk) 20:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c, was typed after Jayron pinged me) Of course the RefDesk is a perfectly good place to ask, and answer, a question like this, and we have a long and honourable tradition of digging up sources to improve articles, often articles with moribund talk pages. Given that the question hadn't got a definite answer on the article talk page before I came here then this is probably a much better place than there. But some people are very protective of their articles, and I don't have the energy to deal with behaviour like Mathglot's anymore. Just close it down and walk away. If anyone else thinks it's an interesting question then they are of course free to ask it again. Petain was one of the most significant figures of two world wars, and our article's coverage of his trial and conviction is, to put it frankly, crap. I've never been one to stop people using the Desks for interesting questions, however outré. But please leave me out of it, and don't ping me. I took this page off my watchlist as soon as I hatted the thread, and it will stay that way till I decide I'm up to coming back. DuncanHill (talk) 20:19, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Claiming to be crazy

I have watching an Argentine TV series where the crimes of the bad guy have finally been proved, he has been captured and sent to jail (at the police station for the time being), he has no legal way to get out... so he started acting like a madman in the cell, talking in Gollum style as if he had a personality disorder, hoping that he would be diagnosed to be mentally ill and then sent to a madhouse instead of a proper prison.

I'm sure that it can't be so easy in real life. Is there an article about such a legal recourse, so I can compare it with the way the plot is unfolding? Cambalachero (talk) 16:14, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds a bit like Vincent Gigante, for whom that ruse worked, at least for a while. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:59, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A fundamental principle underpinning most legal systems is the ability of a person to formulate criminal intent for an act prohibited in their legal code. In many Anglo-Saxon systems, this is known as the mens rea, and in the French penal code as the "moral element". This is why children are not held criminally liable, because almost all jurisdictions hold that they are unable to form criminal intent. The same question of intent applies to various mental disorders among adults, and is a thorny question. In French law, "imputability" is an attempt to define this, as the "ability of someone to recognize their action as being unlawful", and it appears that the Argentine penal code Title V – Imputabilidad deals with exactly the same topic, in particular, art. 34 §1. This appears to underlie the plot of the Argentine TV series, as you describe it. Mathglot (talk) 19:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the US we have United States v. Kantor (1987). See Strict liability_(criminal)#United_States. We could probably use an article about that case. What I'm getting at is that it wasn't litigated until fairly recently in US historical terms. Plus that was a circuit court decision: I've no idea what the current SCOTUS would say. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6032 (talk) 03:07, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WWII: Japanese-Americans in Japanese military

During World War II, were there any Japanese-Americans in the Japanese army and other military? 86.130.49.195 (talk) 19:47, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Stranded: Nisei in Japan Before, During, and After World War II has some details. Alansplodge (talk) 09:53, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And were they all placed in US concentration camps because of their race? 86.130.49.195 (talk) 18:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's improbable. Rather for reasons of the kind of blindness leading to preventive paranoia: "No sabotage by Japanese Americans has yet been confirmed, but it only proves a disturbing and confirming indication that such action will be taken." --Askedonty (talk) 19:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't you confusing Japanese-Americans in the USA with Japanese-Americans in Japan that the OP was aking about? Alansplodge (talk) 12:17, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the OP was asking his race question about Japanese-Americans not serving in the Japanese army during WWII, and living in the US instead. The sentence "US concentration camps post WWII" was not leading in the Google search engine to results related to Japanese-Americans having served in foreign military. --Askedonty (talk) 19:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the WWII TV film Women of Valor, the POW camp commander Captain Nakayama spoke with an American accent. According to the female inmates, he was born in San Francisco and was studying in Japan when he was inducted into the military service. He mentions all Japanese-Americans had been placed in concentration camps because of the color of their skin. His parents chose not to endure that shame and chose to take their own lives. 86.130.49.195 (talk) 21:56, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt the level of detail is realistic. Here is one concrete case: [1], a young man who grew up in the land of plenty and was suddenly promised to a dull existence as someone who had been institutionally excluded. If I'm cold about it it's because I've been there - that counts too. Parents taking their own life and their children's because of the enemy coming is all around the world during WWII. --Askedonty (talk) 22:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See also Kawakita v. United States Eliyohub (talk) 15:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

September 1

Uranium City output

Hi. I was reading about Uranium City and how it's not connected by road to the rest of Canada. There is only a seasonal Winter road.

Back when the Uranium mines were actively producing, how did the products get shipped to the outside world?

My wild guesses are:

1. The ore is processed/refined, and the refined product is air-lifted out.

2. The product is stored throughout the year, and is only transported by trucks during the winter months. Helian James (talk) 18:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm almost certain the answer is the second one. This says that Lake Athabaska-area uranium ore is all transported by truck to Saskatoon, likely merely a collection point, from whence it is sent on to other locations for processing and refinement. --Jayron 32 18:17, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you!Helian James (talk) 18:41, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note that river barges are also commonly used for transport up north when winter roads cannot be used. That would also be a practical way of moving bulky product like uranium ore. Xuxl (talk) 15:17, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

September 2

Anarchism

What caused anarchism to get less popular? (at least in America). Did states start to seem not so bad after seeing the relative successes of anarchism vs USSR? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:22, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What's the basis of your premise that anarchism was ever "popular" in America? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't but more popular than it was before or since. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Who says so, besides you? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:35, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[https://newint.org/features/2011/06/01/anarchism-explained Anarchism had its 'golden age' during the early decades of the 20th century.] Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Anarchists are better dreamers than doers. A successful movement requires compromise, organization, and leadership to actually get things done.^[2]

See also: History of anarchism, e.g. [Delo Truda] considered that a lack of organisation was a basic reason of why anarchism had failed [in USSR].

This might be of interest:

Madison, Charles A. (1945). "Anarchism in the United States". Journal of the History of Ideas. 6 (1): 46–66. doi:10.2307/2707055. ISSN 0022-5037.

-- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 04:19, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How ironic, failed from too little organization. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Around the turn of the 20th century, Italian anarchism helped give anarchism as a whole a bad name in the United States. See article Galleanisti for a list of some of their actions in the United States, culminating in the infamous 1920 Wall Street bombing, which almost certainly had an Italian anarchist connection. In many people's eyes, they shot, stabbed, poisoned, and blew up stuff out of pure nihilism, and no other reason. Also, the gusto with which Spanish anarchists killed priests, nuns, and bishops in Spain in the 1930s didn't do much for the reputation of anarchists in the United States... AnonMoos (talk) 05:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Anarchism and public relations are uneasy bedfellows? Alansplodge (talk) 12:19, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure that Kropotkin style "mutual aid" would not have developed a strongly negative reputation on its own, but when it was subsumed under the broad umbrella of "anarchism", the negative PR generated by one group could taint the public's image of anarchist groups and trends as a whole. The stereotypical cartoon character of the short man with a large beard holding a spherical bomb with a lit fuse summed up many people's view of Italian anarchism by the time of the Wall Street bombing... AnonMoos (talk) 18:58, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This killing was supposed to be propaganda and snowball into successful revolution right? Really tone deaf. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:41, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For some historical context, see Propaganda of the deed § Anarchist origins. It should be reealized (a) that the oppression of socialists and anarchists in these days was much more open and violent than today, as seen in several State-sponsored massacres of non-violent protests; and (b) that assassinations of specifically targeted oppressors were the order of the day, so to speak, and by no means reserved to anarchists. --Lambiam 17:48, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppressor according to who? Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt and FDR weren't perfect but are generally considered to be in the better presidents and assassins targeted them anyway. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Arguably, if one think a particular institution is inherently or usually 'bad', then an exceptional 'good' leader or figurehead of it merely whitewashes the 'bad' thing and delays its abolition, so while personally 'good', they are helping to perpetuate long-term 'badness'.

Of course, different people also have radically different ideas of what is 'bad' and what is 'good'. As a separate issue, they also tend to confuse agreed-on 'good' ends with honestly held different ideas about means to get there. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 09:25, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Empress Elisabeth of Austria wasn't personally considered "oppressive" by anarchist Luigi Lucheni; he said that he just wanted to assassinate "any sovereign" and become "an immortal martyr of the anarchist movement".^[3] -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 20:38, 2 September 2023 (UTC) . . . Another irony: Sisi is much beloved to this day; who remembers Luigi Whats-his-name?[reply]

Yikes, these replies. The fact of it is that in America, like in many places, anarchism was pretty ruthlessly repressed. In the USA after Haymarket affair, in Paris after the Paris Commune, in the USSR after the Russian civil war, etc. In particular, the outcome of the Spanish Civil War had an impact, not to mention that the Nazis famously first came for the socialists and trade unionists (First they came ...). Furthermore, the end of monarchies across Europe, the success of individual work reform aims like the eight-hour day, the decline of the power of the institutional church, and the general increase in living standards after WWII all served to make the cause less urgent for many. -- asilvering (talk) 10:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a surge of nationalism surrounding World War One might have a bit to do with the lack of interest in anti-nationalistic anarchism. Also, a general improvement in the economy by the mid-1920s probably should not be dismissed out of hand. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In Ukraine, the Revolutionary Insurgent Army of Ukraine lost to the Red Army and the White Army.

In Spain, anarchosyndicalism had its heyday during the La Canadiense strike and the Spanish Revolution of 1936. However, the anarchistic militias were seen as ineffective by other Republican (Spanish Civil War)s. Anarchists and Troskyites were militarily repressed by Communists who had the backing of the Soviet Union. The Stalinist Communists became the party of law and order in the Republic. The Republic lost to the Nationalist (Spanish Civil War) side and all leftists were repressed. Some of the exiles fought in the French Resistance. During Francoism, internal opposition gathered around the Communist Party, which evolved to Eurocommunism. However after the Spanish transition to democracy, leftism mainly followed the Social-Democrat PSOE. Anarchism had very few political importance and some labor presence in some industries.

In modern times, it depends on how you define anarchism. Libertarianism seems to have a very vocal presence in the American Internet. The Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria has had some support of anti-terrorist US forces, hostility from anti-terrorist Turkish forces and a kind of detente from the Syrian government.

--Error (talk) 08:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Two "Age of Discovery" questions

A random thought last night piqued my curiosity:

1) I know there's some evidence that the Vikings crossed the Atlantic by stopping at Iceland and Greenland. When were the first ships constructed that would have been physically capable of conveying a crew across the Atlantic without stopping? What technologies or societal capabilities were necessary to make this possible?

2) I know that it's strongly theorized that North America was initially populated from Asia via the Bering Strait (possibly via a land bridge during an ice age). I also know that at the time of Columbus' voyage across the Atlantic, there was some amount of trade and exchange of ideas between Europe and the "Far East", even if it was slow and arduous due to the overland routes. Were any of the peoples of northeast Asia in the 15th C aware of the existence of the North American continent? And were these peoples engaged at all in trade with Europe? It seems like it would have been very possible (if not necessarily easy or fun due to the climate) for someone from that region to follow the coast around and sail across the Bering Strait and then return.

Thanks! -- Avocado (talk) 13:09, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See article Knarr for the longest-range ship the Vikings had. I don't know whether it was technically capable of crossing the wider Atlantic at lower latitudes -- that would have involved leaving areas of Scandinavian culture far behind (as opposed to the Norway-Faroes-Iceland-Greenland-Vinland route). The inhabitants of the Chukchi Peninsula always knew about the part of North America closest to them, but such knowledge didn't start becoming accessible to the Russian state until the mid-17th-century Dezhnev expedition. AnonMoos (talk) 15:24, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Was the lack of shared knowledge from the Chukchi Peninsula just due to sparse settlement and relative isolation in that period because of the geography? -- Avocado (talk) 18:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did they think the New World mainland was freaking huge or much smaller than it was or part of the landmass they were on or would they have said they have no idea? Did they have any mythology of the unknown part? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1) The early European explorers such as Bartolomeu Dias and Christopher Columbus used caravels, which were originally developed for offshore fishing and coastal cargo carrying and gradually enlarged to allow a larger load. By the time the Age of Discovery began, they could be used as they were already.

2) The Chinese culture was adverse to exploration; by 1500, it had become a capital offence to build a seaworthy junk with more than two masts (see Chinese exploration § Indian Ocean and beyond). Japanese exploration was nonexistent. It is unlikely either civilization ventured close to or was even aware of the Bering Strait or St. Lawrence Island (first European visit by Vitus Bering in 1728). (If they knew about it, it was a successfully guarded secret.) --Lambiam 17:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1) Oh, "caravel" is familiar from Civilization (series) -- where, ironically, they're generally limited to sailing within sight of land. That article led me to Iberian ship development, 1400–1600. Neither goes super into depth about the way the technical developments added to the ships' capabilities, but I feel a little better informed now.

2) And that's fascinating to learn about the limitations on exploration in China. What reasons existed for prohibiting such shipbuilding? -- Avocado (talk) 18:08, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New emperor wanted to stop. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Evidently. But what reasons could he have had for wanting them to stop? -- Avocado (talk) 23:30, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See China#Isolationism and the links from it. Broadly, The Chinese establishment, embodied in the Emperor, preferred stability over progress and (rightly) feared that foreign contacts and influences could destabilise China's social structure: since they were at the pinnacle of that structure, they did not want this. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 05:03, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

51, that anchor didn't resolve for me. Haijin is the most specific article we have on the phenomenon, and lands squarely in my weakest time period as a Chinese history person, so I have no further information from background knowledge. Folly Mox (talk) 18:35, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's weird! I know I read an article sub-section titled Isolationism, and I thought it was in the China article, but now I can't see it, or find a related article containing it. I'm baffled! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 19:02, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Polynesian peoples, although nowhere near the Atlantic, made very long sea voyages between distant islands and reached South America and (probably) returned about 700 CE. See Polynesian navigation and waka hourua.-gadfium 21:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ooh, very cool. That information about navigational techniques is fascinating. Do we know whether knowledge of the visits to South America been retained / passed down (or perhaps the voyages had been repeated) since 700 CE? Also: How much were any of these groups in contact with Europeans in the 15th C? -- Avocado (talk) 03:06, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See Pre-Columbian transoceanic contact theories. There's no retained knowledge, but there's genetic evidence of human contact, and the sweet potato is a food from the Americas widely distributed in Polynesia, though theories differ how it arrived there. European explorers passed through the Pacific in the early 16th century-gadfium 03:20, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Let's be careful not to attribute to culture and aversion to exploration when the actual reason was the arbitrary (?) decision of a single (?) man. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:52, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of doing the really important things I've been avoiding, I looked into this more, and the earliest form of the prohibition in China is carried in the 明太祖實錄, vol. 70. It was the decision of the Hongwu Emperor, but the report that spurred the decision was brought by Wu Zhen (zh:吳禎), who may have made the recommendation, although it's not recorded. It does seem pretty arbitrary, which is on-brand for Hongwu. Folly Mox (talk) 19:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

About the first question, Thor Heyerdahl, who may have Viking ancestors:

In 1969 and 1970, Heyerdahl built two boats from papyrus and attempted to cross the Atlantic Ocean from Morocco in Africa. Based on drawings and models from ancient Egypt, the first boat, named Ra (after the Egyptian Sun god), was constructed by boat builders from Lake Chad using papyrus reed obtained from Lake Tana in Ethiopia and launched into the Atlantic Ocean from the coast of Morocco. [...]

After a number of weeks, Ra took on water. The crew discovered that a key element of the Egyptian boatbuilding method had been neglected, a tether that acted like a spring to keep the stern high in the water while allowing for flexibility.[41] Water and storms eventually caused it to sag and break apart after sailing more than 6,400 km (4,000 miles). The crew was forced to abandon Ra, some hundred miles (160 km) before the Caribbean islands, and was saved by a yacht.

The following year, 1970, a similar vessel, Ra II, was built from Ethiopian papyrus by Bolivian citizens Demetrio, Juan and José Limachi of Lake Titicaca, and likewise set sail across the Atlantic from Morocco, this time with great success. The crew was mostly the same; though Djibrine had been replaced by Kei Ohara from Japan and Madani Ait Ouhanni from Morocco. The boat became lost and was the subject of a United Nations search and rescue mission. The search included international assistance including people as far afield as Loo-Chi Hu of New Zealand. The boat reached Barbados, thus demonstrating that mariners could have dealt with trans-Atlantic voyages by sailing with the Canary Current.[42] The Ra II is now in the Kon-Tiki Museum in Oslo, Norway.

You can question Heyerdahl's methods and he had the advantage of knowing that there was a western continent and currents leading to it.

There is also the Phoenician Ship Expedition:

A second sea voyage has also been completed. On 31 December 2019, the Phoenicia docked in the port of Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. For this final voyage, Beale set out to demonstrate that the Phoenicians could have crossed the Atlantic Ocean long before Christopher Columbus.[3] The journey was launched on 28 September 2019 in the commune of Carthage, Tunisia, site of the ancient city of Carthage,[4] and reached Santo Domingo before 31 December 2019.[5]

On the second question, I thought I have read about Japanese ships carried by storms to Spanish America, but I am not finding now anything from before 1800, and they required official assistance to go back to Japan.

--Error (talk) 09:22, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, those recreation expeditions are fascinating. And I suppose they also carried all their own supplies? I wonder what navigational methods they used. -- Avocado (talk) 15:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Replications of ancient voyages in case you haven't found it yet. Heyerdahl wrote books and made documentaries about his expeditions. They inspired most of the movement of voyage recreation. --Error (talk) 19:29, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've always wondered why Heyerdahl used a small boat made of straw? Didn't he know that the Ancient Egyptians could build perfectly good wooden ships? Alansplodge (talk) 20:28, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to this page on the Kon-Tiki Museum site, he visited Easter Island and saw "depictions of reed boats with masts and sails", so he decided to try that. --142.112.221.184 (talk) 05:08, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Overkill to make a point? Kind of like those ads that obliterate camcorders with food blenders. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:39, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to propose that maybe he considered using imported wood cheating, but Abydos boats says:

The wood of the Abydos boats was local Tamarix – tamarisk, salt cedar – not cedar from Lebanon which was used for Khufu’s Solar Barque and favored for shipbuilding in Egypt in later dynasties.[6]

--Error (talk) 23:48, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Might have been more of a case of trying to demonstrate that long distance navigation was possible with the technology and materials available to individuals or small groups rather than the entire kingdom.^{[speculation]} Folly Mox (talk) 23:51, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think they needed navigation methods. They knew basically nothing about the western continent that they were to reach, so they didn't have a target to navigate to. – b_jonas 13:40, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese ship(s) or boat(s) made it to somewhere around Puget Sound but it was a very unpleasant marathon in storm-damaged equipment. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:07, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Probably the most insane story along these lines is of Charlesfort, which actually happened during the age of discovery and wasn't a modern recreation attempt. Twenty-eight people with rudimentary tools and no shipyard were able to build a rudimentary boat which got most of them across the Atlantic. Once you know there's land on the other side of the ocean, it's a lot more practical to think of going there. Blythwood (talk) 18:02, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

September 3

The Garden of Earthly Delights

Resolved

– 136.54.106.120 (talk) 01:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The right panel of Bosch's triptych features a number of musical instruments. Although fanciful, most seem to be based on actual instruments. The big one near the middle (of the detail linked above) has me stumped, however. Is it completely fabricated from the surreal mind of the artist, or is there an actual instrument similar to that? -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 00:41, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like a Hurdy-gurdy - very common then and for much later. Johnbod (talk) 00:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is one - apparently the first image showing the "buzzing bridge" feature. Johnbod (talk) 01:19, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! That's a new one for me. -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 01:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here in the UK, I've seen hurdy-gurdies played by street buskers and at music festivals within the last five years. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 18:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've never seen one in the US; I only know about them from the Donovan song. 136.54.106.120 (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

When I was little (in the UK), I knew the word "hurdy gurdy", but I thought it meant a barrel organ. It was only after I started to get into the folk scene that I discovered what a hurdy gurdy really is. ColinFine (talk) 10:34, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen one being played last month, here in the Netherlands, fairly close to where Bosch came from. Is was played in a 14th century castle by a man wearing period clothes. PiusImpavidus (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Self portrait of Frits Van den Berghe

Hello!

I recently uploaded this self-portrait of Frits Van den Berghe to Commons, and I changed the {{Information}} template to {{Artwork}}, which was more fitting.

However, I can't find any information about this template online. Reverse image searching only led me to basically just Wikipedia (including sister sites and mirrors thereof), and the Pinterest post I uploaded from.

Where is the painting (In what museum/institution)? What are its dimensions? Does the painting have an official artwork title? (shoutout to ChatGPT for helping with that article)

Cheers, --QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 22:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You write, "information about this template". Did you mean to write, "information about this painting"? I found this much: 'Frits VAN DEN BERGHE (1883 – 1939) – “Selfportrait” (1933) – oil on canvas 66 × 53 cm'.^[4] The Francis Maere Fine Arts Gallery may have information about its current whereabouts. --Lambiam 09:17, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam: Yes, that is indeed what I meant! I was very tired when I wrote that.

Thank you for the swift and helpful reply! QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 15:53, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

police and art

In the Wikipedia page for Stanisław Witkiewicz, under publications there is listed, Policja a sztuka. (police and art) Where can I find the text?

Thank you 2600:1700:3D74:F010:B03A:3C3B:C8C9:D2A0 (talk) 23:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

At the bottom of Stanisław Witkiewicz there are links to the Internet Archive and Open Library, try that. RudolfRed (talk) 00:54, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like maybe not there? I'm not sure. RudolfRed (talk) 00:56, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Piotrus might know Elinruby (talk) 03:55, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bleh, this is harder than what I thought. Added a ref to the article, but note sources quote the article name differently (some call it just 'Policja a sztuka', some add subtitle 'Odpowiedź na ankietę' and add it before of after 'Policja a sztuka'. Seems 'Policja a sztuka' was a title of a reader survey, and Witkiewicz wrote a nice responce to it. Bibliographical info is meh, magazine is titled Krytka but pl wiki does not have an entry for it yet (it has one for a similarly named magazine from decades later). Not sure this Witkiewicz article(?) has been digitized, browse stuff like this and some other resutls from Google query 'magazyn krytyka 1902' which seem to return some results from Polish digital libraries (the work is old enough and SW died in 1915 so it may be in public domain). If you find it, please consider adding it to Wikisource (Polish, no English for SW yet). I tried googling (plus GB) for excerpts cited in https://doi.org/10.12775%2FLC.2018.008 but no luck, all I get is that one article, so it seems that the work has either been not digitized yet, or not indexed. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you 2600:1700:3D74:F010:9024:F1CD:A98F:FDF7 (talk) 01:09, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

September 4

Ibn Battuta quote?

There is a quotation ascribed to Ibn Battuta that goes something like - one should never travel faster than a camel lest one's soul gets left behind ... however there is hardly any reliable mention of this in any translations of Battuta as far as I can see (Google "Ibn Battuta faster than camel soul site:archive.org"). Is this a misattribution? Shyamal (talk) 11:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiquote has an entry for Ibn Battuta. Nowhere in that article is "camel" mentioned. -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 14:58, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There purportedly is a relevant "old Arabic saying": The soul invariably travels at the speed of a camel.^[5] 136.54.106.120 (talk) 15:56, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Still not reliably sourced... Shyamal (talk) 15:09, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect it's misattributed. To quote both Albert Einstein and Mark Twain: "I never said that".^{[citation needed]} -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 21:08, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

September 5

Chicago Today

Are any articles from the old Chicago Today digitized? I’m looking for one from 1971. Viriditas (talk) 10:24, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It does not appear to be on Newspapers.com. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:36, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're most likely to find such information from a local public library. I would be surprised if someone from the Chicago Public Library couldn't help you find your answer better than anyone here. There is an "Ask a Librarian" service here, and that page has a phone number as well. There is also a "contact us" page Here. --Jayron 32 17:28, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I'm sure the original poster knows already, Chicago Today was the successor to several other titles such as Chicago's American, The Chicago American and The Chicago Herald-American. If @Viriditas: isn't already doing this, he or she might use web searches, chatbots, database searches and/or library catalogue searches to seek the desired information. —— Shakescene (talk) 23:43, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Will do, but a cursory search suggested that all of the archives were offline. Hopefully, I’m wrong. Viriditas (talk) 23:45, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, just because they aren't available online doesn't mean they aren't available. If you use the "ask a librarian" service or call the library; they may have them archived on microfiche/microfilm, or they may have them digitized, but not online. --Jayron 32 12:41, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The newspapers I search for from the public library, are available on-line provided you have a library card. At least with the Chicago Tribune. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 17:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC).[reply]

I'm from Chicago, and I use the Chicago Public Library to access Chicago newspaper articles from the 1960s. Particularly the Chicago Tribune, Chicago Defender, and Chicago Sun Times. You can filter in the time frame by year/month/date etc. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 19:31, 5 September 2023 (UTC).[reply]

Can we all agree?

Posting by banned user removed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:57, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One of the reasons why Henry VIII broke away from the Papacy was so that he could rewrite the rules on marriage. So… no, we don’t all agree. Blueboar (talk) 18:53, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not many people know that Henry VIII married his late brother's wife, Katherine of Aragon. You may thus mourn the monarch who never was, King Arthur II. The English Reformation merely substituted one despot for another. Or is this about the tangled tale of members of the cringeworthy current minor British monarchy? MinorProphet (talk) 20:09, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Not many people know that Henry VIII married his late brother's wife" -eh? Anyone in England that did history at school has been told that, maybe 90% of the population. Whether the fact stuck is arguable, but it certainly has to be a great deal more than "not many". Unless, of course, the people you are talking about are not English, in which case it is perfrectly reasonable that they are not aware of the details of English history. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:12, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Like Paddington, I was addressing the world in general. Pass the marmalade sandwiches. MinorProphet (talk) 23:22, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What is coronavirus?

Essay sample @ 202.165.198.38 (talk) 22:41, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think you might have been infected already? If so, we can't answer medical questions. Also, we don't answer homework questions. Sorry. MinorProphet (talk) 23:19, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, feel free to read the coronavirus article and check out the sources and links therein. 136.54.106.120 (talk) 00:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind that "coronavirus" is a far broader category than COVID-19, which is just one of many types of coronaviruses. Cullen328 (talk) 09:39, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Although, with all the publicity, COVID-19 has become rosy - the queen of Coronavirus. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Jokes like this should be against the law. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:17, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. That's what the Mama saw. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:26, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bugs and Julio should quit with the schoolyard jokes. -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 16:58, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yah, but otherwise the ref desks would become unbelievably tiresome. Most of the time they (the ref desks, obvs.) perform a wholly admirable and valuable service. MinorProphet (talk) 22:15, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

September 6

Productivity analysis of the airlines of India.

Mention the profitability strategy, market share , advertisement , history and cost of the Indian airline companies.Ther should be maximum 3 companies. 113.21.65.54 (talk) 11:51, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please do your homework yourself. --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:57, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You could start with List of airlines of India. 136.54.106.120 (talk) 14:28, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Question for an American organization for Baltic states

I have once seen an American organization related to trilateral relations between Baltic states, which used a logo that combined both arms of Baltic states together, who know that? -- Great Brightstar (talk) 15:01, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which Baltic States? There are several. --Jayron 32 15:24, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Baltic states does have a conventional meaning. —Tamfang (talk) 15:56, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It does, but there's more than "both" of them. My question is "Which two of the larger group of them is "both" referring to"? If the OP can indicate that, it will help others know which specific two Baltic states to start looking for. --Jayron 32 16:01, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I remember its logo is the Estonian coat of arms at the left, Latvian coat of arms at the middle, and the Lithuanian coat of arms at the right. -- Great Brightstar (talk) 00:27, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The OP may use Baltic in the linguistic sense where it applies to Latvia and Lithuania. Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:43, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not what you're looking for, but I found this rather nice flag. The search continues... Alansplodge (talk) 17:00, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ōkawa Haruyoshi

Can you help me to find if there are some sites with photos of him, his family, or others about his career? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.97.94 (talk) 21:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is French Guiana in NATO?

Our article on NATO states NATO has thirty-one members, all in Europe and North America. Some of these countries also have territory on other continents, which is covered by the security agreements only as far south as the Tropic of Cancer, which together with the Atlantic Ocean defines NATO's "area of responsibility" under Article 6 of the North Atlantic Treaty. That article on the treaty states that it covers only member states' territories in Europe, North America, Turkey, and islands in the Atlantic north of the Tropic of Cancer. It was the opinion in August 1965 of the US State Department, the US Defense Department, and the legal division of NATO that an attack on the U.S. state of Hawaii would not trigger the treaty, but an attack on the other 49 would. The Spanish cities of Ceuta and Melilla on the North African shore are thus not under NATO protection.
File:North Atlantic Treaty Organization (orthographic projection).svg (which notably excludes Hawaii and seems to also exclude Spanish Africa), File:NATO_partnerships.svg, and possibly other Wikipedia/Commons-generated maps of NATO depict French Guiana as being covered by the treaty, even though it is south of the Tropic of Cancer. Which is correct (and which needs to be changed), the wiki maps or the text? -sche (talk) 22:16, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because French Guiana is technically part of France as an overseas department, and France as a whole is a big NATO member, French Guiana is a part of NATO and NATO territory. However, it's not protected by NATO, so while it can be used by a member state to advance NATO goals, an attack on it won't trigger Article 5.

A similar comparable analogy would be the CCP when it comes to the remaining communist governments: It isn't communist at all from most western interpretations of the Chinese economic system, but it still says its communist. For that reason alone it's considered a country which adheres to Marxism-Leninism nominally, even if it's not one in practice.

I do think that the first map should include Spanish Africa if it wants to be consistent as well; Puerto Rico is highlighted there. I would say the only reason Hawaii can't be on the map is because of the angle that the globe is being photographed from. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 02:44, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In 1957, Algeria could be considered part of NATO, since it was formally annexed to France at that time; see File:NATO_member_states_in_1957.jpg. No idea about Article 5 treaty obligations in that case. AnonMoos (talk)

Regarding the maps, the best solution would be to use different colors for territories covered by Article 5 and for other territories of NATO member states. — Kpalion^(talk) 11:27, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Seeking a speculative fiction title

This is a longshot because I don't remember much. When I was in middle/high school (early to mid 2000s) I read a really interesting story. It was either a short story or a pretty short book. The plot I remember is as follows: dystopian world, a man discovers a secret at his job (which may be the government) and so he is implanted with false memories. The memories include killing his someone (his wife?). He takes a train to the place he remembers and that's all I remember! Any ideas of what I read? BookIt33 (talk) 23:40, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Elements of this resemble the plot of the 1998 film Dark City, but I'm not aware of a written version of it. Such a plot would be typical of Philip K. Dick, but no specific story comes to mind (yet). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 05:17, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also We Can Remember It for You Wholesale... -- AnonMoos (talk) 07:07, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reading your question (without looking at the answers) I was also instantly reminded of P. K. Dick. I'm glad that others had the same idea. I cannot recommend his short stories enough. They have been published as The Collected Stories of Philip K. Dick. It may be (as suggested above) one of the novels/novellas. When you find finally the story you remember, it will be a revelation. An entire forgotten universe will re-align itself with your eager mind. MinorProphet (talk) 13:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

September 7

Genre of novel

A certain novel[6] begins with three seemingly unrelated murders. The cops investigate and it turns out there is a non-obvious connection between the victims, and by maybe halfway through the book enough clues have been gathered to identify the one guy who logically could have done it, but they can't arrest him because there is no usable evidence to connect him to the crimes. In the rest of the book (spoiler) they gradually close in on him, and nab him just at the last moment before he commits some more murders.

Mystery story doesn't sound right, since the perp is identified fairly early, and the reader isn't expected to solve puzzles faster than the police. I wrote "suspense" but it's not all that suspenseful. Is there something else to call it? Crime novel? Dissipated romance (the two main characters get interested in each other but nothing happens)? The book isn't terrible but it's not very good either, in case you wondered. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:DFEE (talk) 00:56, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not exactly a genre label, but I often see works with that sort of plot feature described as "cat and mouse" or "battle of wits" thrillers/mysteries. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:06, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Police procedural?-gadfium 01:22, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, thanks both. Idk if it's a battle of wits since the bad guy doesn't realize that the cops have scoped him out. He just keeps chugging along with his diabolical murder plans until he is busted at the last minute. Also there's not too much about the workings of the police department. Mostly there's one investigator putting the bits together. The main characters are the police investigator and a lady who helped supply some leads, and who turns out to be one of the killer's intended future victims. And he would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for that meddling cop :). 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:DFEE (talk) 02:45, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia classifies most of the books in the Robert Langdon book series (Angels & Demons, The Da Vinci Code, Inferno, Origin) as mystery-thriller novels. The mystery is hardly whodunnit, but rather how, or why, or what it all means. If the reader of The Beethoven Conspiracy only finds out what connects the victims at the same pace as the detectives investigating the case, it would also seem an apt classification here. --Lambiam 13:14, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds similar to the typical plot of Columbo, which Wikipedia describes as Crime drama and Detective fiction. Iapetus (talk) 09:19, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Book Details for Research purpose

Hi, I am doing research for my collage work and I need info about Jeremiah Curtin's book: Myths and Folk Tales of the Russians, Western Slavs, and Magyars. But there is no Wikipedia page for this book. Can you please help? James8900 (talk) 06:53, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See Jeremiah Curtin. Amazon has several different editions for sale and provides full publication details and numerous customer reviews. No doubt other booksellers also have information about it. You can buy a copy very cheaply. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:16, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:James8900, this book is so old even the reviews are public domain. Internet Archive has four separate scans available. According to google scholar, 28 other works cite it. Not sure what your access to academic publishers and journal hosts is like through your university account, but check those for works that cite, discuss, review, or mention the book or Jeremiah Curtin. Folly Mox (talk) 09:04, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

When was this made?

I'd like a source for the c. age of this image. It's in this book [7] but no year is mentioned. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:58, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The manuscript is at the Bibliothèque Nationale de France and can be seen here. The date is given as 1436, author of the text Ferid ed-Din ʿAttar (presumably Farid ad-Din Attar). --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:13, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This source, talking about the same manuscript, gives the author as Herou Melik Bakhshi. I can't read French, but the canonical metadata probably clears that up, although its doubtful the illustrator is credited. Folly Mox (talk) 09:22, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Herou Melik Bakhshi was the scribe who prepared the manuscript in 1436 (including the illustrations?), Farid ad-Din Attar the author of the text (some 200 years earlier). --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:30, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Great and quick, thank you both! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:26, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to use the "depiction" thing to make it possible for Muslims to hide it if they want to, but it didn't seem to work??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:12, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Federal (not State) Drinking Age in the United States

The act of 1984 made the drinking age in the United States 21 because it demanded that every state pass a law requiring the drinking age to be 21. However, the Federal age was still 18. If you went into any bar, you had to be 21 because of state law. But, there were rare cases where a bar was on federal land and could serve people as young as 18. I know that was the case in Del Mar, California in 1990, long after the act of 1984. Then, at some point, the actual Federal drinking age changed to 21. What law changed the Federal drinking age? 97.82.165.112 (talk) 12:36, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 219: / Line 219: @@
 :::::--[[User:Error|Error]] ([[User talk:Error|talk]]) 23:48, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 ::::::Might have been more of a case of trying to demonstrate that long distance navigation was possible with the technology and materials available to individuals or small groups rather than the entire kingdom.{{dummy ref|speculation}} [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 23:51, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
+:::I don't think they needed navigation methods.  They knew basically nothing about the western continent that they were to reach, so they didn't have a target to navigate to.  – [[User:b_jonas|b_jonas]] 13:40, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 ::Japanese ship(s) or boat(s) made it to somewhere around Puget Sound but it was a very unpleasant marathon in storm-damaged equipment. [[User:Sagittarian Milky Way|Sagittarian Milky Way]] ([[User talk:Sagittarian Milky Way|talk]]) 18:07, 4 September 2023 (UTC)