Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard

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This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input. Do not copy and paste defamatory material here; instead, link to a diff showing the problem. Search this noticeboard & archives Sections older than 7 days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. Additional notes: Edits by the subject of an article may be welcome in some cases. For general content disputes regarding biographical articles, try Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies instead. Editors are encouraged to assist editors regarding the reports below. Administrators may impose contentious topic restrictions to enforce policies.

Javier Milei

There is currently an NPOV discussion on the NPOV Noticeboard.

Kalki Bhagawan

Hi,

I would like to report a very serious violation of the Biographies of Living persons policy about Kalki Bhagavan / Kalki_Bhagawan. I argue the page is an attack page and the content on the page is tantamount to repeated specific violations of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons policy which I shall now give point by point arguments for.

All points are made as per the latest edit available at the time of writing this description which is https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Kalki_Bhagawan&oldid=1163515114

Firstly and most egregious is the summary itself.

"Kalki Bhagawan (born 7 March 1949 as Vijay Kumar Naidu), also known as Sri Bhagavan,[1] is a self-styled Indian godman, cult leader, businessman, and a real estate investor.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8] A former clerk in the LIC, he claims to be an incarnation of God (the Kalki Avatar). He is the founder of 'Oneness' / 'Ekam' cult and White Lotus Conglomerate.[9]"

To describe somebody as a "godman", is a pejorative. To say something is a cult, is also not neutral. What might be a cult to one might be a spiritual retreat to another. Both of these I argue are "contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision" - because though a large number of articles are mentioned - but each of the sources mentioned 2 through 8 are opinion pieces in magazines. These cannot be substituted for court verdicts or formal results of investigations.

These are not links to news events e.g. the inauguration of a temple premise or anything technical. There is no burden of proof on any of them from a legal institution or a court or any Government institution at the state or city level.

Therefore, I firstly request that the summary be changed in a manner which better reflects the facts on the ground.

Next, the order of information itself is especially egregious. When a person's details are mentioned, even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler - their/ her /his personal details are mentioned and then the list of things they / she / he did and finally any controversies / critical opinion. Here, this is completely the opposite. Please help correct this. Wikipedia as mentioned is not a newspaper and certainly not an editorial piece or tabloid.

Finally, the sheer volume of negative claims on the Wikipedia article are mind boggling

1) Most of the accusations are from 2019 about Income Tax raids on the premises. However, these are serious accusations, and the formal and final decisions of the courts should be mentioned (especially now that it is 4 years). If the decision of the court is to find the defendants not guilty, then it is certainly a moral imperative to at least mention that. Wikipedia edits are not a higher authority than a court decision made by the law of the land

2) The tone of the article is generally extremely negative against Kalki Bhagavan but is favorable towards any of his critics

- Viswanath Swami is called a social activist, but no further analysis is done on the merit of his claims. in the first paragraph itself the word "alleged" is used. That is argued to be against "Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and biased, malicious or overly promotional content."

- "Another writer at the time, Shameem Akhtar, was also critical of what she called the 'Kalki craze" - just because somebody is critical, it is not worthy of putting on a Wikipedia page. Please just stick to facts, court reports.

- "Dakshina Kannada Rationalist association" is called well known but that is not relevant to the claim here. Whether they are well known or not it is the merit of the claim.

3) Most of the headings are directly negative. "Allegations of Fraud and founding of White Lotus Conglomerate" , "Accusations against the organization", "Rebranding the cult - 'Ekam'" and numerous others are based on a premeditated opinion - please just help this article stick to facts.

4) All of the links are to opinion pieces which are argued to be "Avoid gossip and feedback loops" - when so much biased information is present, it is fair to request especially given this is a living person to only stick to the facts. Of the 100 links, please remove all the links which are not reports of actual events from newspapers. If a negative claim is made e.g. a court case report, please follow up with its result - especially after multiple years of the said claim. Or don't mention it. One good idea is to put all the allegations under a single concentrated section and not spill all through the article.

5) Political affiliation, is a matter of opinion and in the Republic of India, confidential to the individual expressed solely by their unanimous right to vote. Please therefore remove that section asspeculative. Reference: "it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages."

Finally all information here is frozen in time. "The investigation is in progress" is incorrect, it might have been true at 2019 which the source links, but no follow up has been done.

The reason for this is shooting down of any neutral content edits also, leave alone anything positive.

This is my first time reporting an article on Wikipedia. Please let me know if you would like me to change my style to add more references etc. I am keeping it shorter, given the request at the top of the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aditya the sun (talk • contribs) 15:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a policy, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, but this is quite different from neutrality. Wikipedia neutrally reflects what published reliable sources state. So if something is described a certain way by the majority of reliable sources, the Wikipedia also describes that thing that way. Wikipedia doesn't represent both sides equally, which many mistake as the purpose of the NPOV policy. To do so would be against the policy on WP:FALSEBALANCE. I suggest raising your concerns on the articles talk page, but you will need to show that reliable sources back up any change you desire to make. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 20:04, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

No, they need to show reliable sources for any additions they wish to make. If they wish to have material removed, showing that it lacks reliable sources should be sufficient. Some legitimate sourcing questions are raised above. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 17:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks ActivelyDisinterested and Nat

Yes Nat - that is the crux of my claim. I shall take that up in point 2 below. But before that let me not even talk about the sources but why this is an attack page (arguments follow)

1) I am happy to accept the view that all Wikipedia requires is a neutral point of view of all published sources, not neutrality per se and no original research. All right. Then it is not about whether the person is living or not (possibly higher standards should apply for living persons as there is an impact on their life). Let us not even talk about the factuality of sources (will take up next)

Then take Osama bin Laden or Adolf Hitler - where there is wide spread agreement and reliable information by multiple modes of information of the loss of human life (regardless of political conviction) caused by them. Even then, the neutral point of view in Wikipedia as evidenced by the articles does not degenerate into name calling, as it should be.

Hitler is not called the "self styled savior of Germany" nor the same for Bin Laden as the "self styled issuer of Fatwa to the United States" and the organizations they led when alive are not referred to as cults - at least not in the first paragraph which shows up in all Google searches on them. This is as it should be and is the essence of factuality, civility and respect which is what is needed in an encyclopedia. Neither of these courtesies are extended to the subject of this article Kalki Bhagavan, even when the allegations are far less severe as per most legal systems in the world and also categorically unproven in courts.

If you can see the difference here, then that is the essence of the argument of why this is an attack page, especially the order of information. The earlier information is what shows up on Search Engines. Allegations and criticisms should be kept impersonal, verified and concentrated and generally after facts are presented neutrally.

Further, note these search engine searches have no impact on the lives of the individuals I mentioned as they have passed away. But they have a tremendous impact on the life of a living public figure which is why I quoted this parallel and the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy.

Finally the impact of this attack page (provided you agree that is a reasonable argument) is amplified by LLMs which consume Wikipedia and they have no advantage of human judgement. They will spit out the attack verbiage in unexpected and unexpected damaging ways.

In all the cases above, verifiable real details of the above their personal life are mentioned first with verified facts - positive or negative (even with no original research) . Why not extend the same courtesy to a living citizen of the world with no such damage to human life associated to them?

In the next post I will try to do a point by point rebuttal of sources in terms of whether they constitute a good Wikipedia source for a living person. Aditya the sun (talk) 18:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I am trying to come up with a list for point by point, trying to present it as neutrally as I can. It is taking some time as there are 110 cited sources, I will post within a few hours. Aditya the sun (talk) 20:51, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Ok here is a point by point analysis of the sources provided.

- there are 42 duplicate links, 20 opinion pieces, 1 blog post lol , approx 10 irrelevant links and several broken links/ which can’t be accessed

- that being said, please note I have tried to be objective and several are proper news reports, and those are fine

My request is

- remove the duplicates - this is not as heavily cited as it seems

- see link 92, Vishwanathan Swamis case was turned down - please allow mention of l such things especially when it is cited

- don’t allow opinion pieces and blog posts as sources for a human life

- please check for relevance , don’t allow irrelevant links

- however any criticisms do mention them in a

maintain civility and respect As much as that extended to Hitler or Osama Bin Laden as argued before

this is a living human being’s Life - and this should be in line with the biography of living persons policy

1. Nadkarni, Vithal C. (2008). "Oneness to the rescue of a world in peril". The Economic Times.
   • Opinion piece, called out at the start
2. From humble beginning to Godman Kalki". www.outlookindia.com/. Retrieved 6 August 2021.
   • Link wrong
3. "Mystic and the moolah". The Week. Retrieved 1 March 2020.
   • Opinion piece
4. "Bhagwan Kalki | Life Positive". lifepositive.com. Retrieved 23 May 2020.
   • Opinion piece
5. "The cult of Kalki". mm-gold.azureedge.net. Retrieved 23 May 2020.
   • Opinion piece
   • Logical fallacy There is a logical fallacy right at the start of the article - it says cults are bad. It then says Kalki Bhagavan is a cult and then therefore it is bad. But no proof or logical arguments are provided as to why it is a cult.
6. "How Kalki gave me a story, but not an Aishwarya look-alike". Times of India Blog. 4 November 2019. Retrieved 23 May 2020.
   • Blog post/ Opinion piece. Is this serious? Why is a blog post allowed as an established source?
7. "The Kalki Craze Outlook India Magazine". Retrieved 23 May 2020.
   • Opinion piece
8. Shobha, V (November 2019). "The cult of Kalki Bhagavan". Open The Magazine. Retrieved 23 May 2020.
   • Opinion piece in a magazine
9. "IT seizes Rs 33 cr from premises of godman Kalki Bhagwan and son". Hindustan Times. 18 October 2019. Retrieved 28 June 2020.
   • This is a news report. Good, only objection I have is the use of the term Godman is never justified in the title.
10. "The cult of Kalki". mm-gold.azureedge.net. Retrieved 28 November 2020.
    • Duplicate, same as 5
11. "The Cult of Kalki Bhagavan". Open The Magazine. 1 November 2019. Retrieved 28 November 2020.
    • Duplicate, same as 8
12. "Inside godman Kalki Bhagwan's world: Bollywood celebs, real estate and drugs". The Week. Retrieved 28 November 2020
    • Opinion piece
    • Allegations and hand wavy, tying to Bollywoood and drugs is textbook tying to association
13. Thorsén, Elin. "Oneness of Different Kinds: A Comparative Study of Amma and Bhagavan's Oneness Movement in India and Sweden"(PDF). Gothenburg University Publications Electronic Archive. Retrieved 8 May 2020.
    • This is fine, looks like a university student’s investigative paper but none of the results seemed strange.
    • On page 70 the author did say that such a movement is not strange in India
14. Kalki, Cult of (November 2019). "Cult of Kalki". Open Magazine. Open Magazine.
    • Duplicate, same as 8
15. "life positive". lifepositive.com. Religioscope.
    • Broken link
16. "India: a visit to the Oneness Temple of Amma-Bhagwan". Religioscope. 13 July 2008.
    • Opinion piece
    • do look at at least the last sentence in the last paragraph - “the guide sounded honest”
17. Founders, OO academy. "OO Academy Founders". OO Academy. OO Academy. Retrieved 8 May 2020.
    • Not a safe link
18. OM, WRSP. "WRSP – OM". WRSP. WRSP. Retrieved 8 May 2020.
    • This looks ok, I don’t have a specific objection
19. "The Cult of Kalki Bhagavan". Open The Magazine. 1 November 2019. Retrieved 10 October 2021.
    • Duplicate, same as 8
20. "The Cult of Kalki Bhagavan". Open The Magazine. 1 November 2019. Retrieved 9 May2020.
    • Duplicate, same as 8
21. Arun Ram (17 June 2002). "Kalki Bhagwan controversy: Tamil Nadu-based godman encounters spate of accusations". India Today. Retrieved 10 October 2021.
    • Opinion piece
22. "Mystic and the moolah". The Week. Retrieved 9 February 2020.
    • Duplicate, same as 3
23. "Income Tax Department conducts Search on a 'wellness group' in Chennai". Pib.gov.in. 16 October 2019. Retrieved 1 March 2020.
    • No arguments here, government report
24. DTNext, Publisher (20 December 2019). "907 acres linked to Kalki ashram attached". DT Next. DT Next. Archived from the originalon 11 June 2020. Retrieved 10 May 2020.
    • News report, reasonable
25. "900 acres of land owned by godman Kalki attached". Deccan Herald. 20 December 2019. Retrieved 10 May 2020.
    • Again a news report, reasonable except for the Godman pejorative
26. Vijayakumar, Sanjay (19 December 2019). "907 acres of land belonging to Kalki group attached". The Hindu. Retrieved 10 May 2020.
    • News report, not fully public so cannot comment but seems ok
27. Dec 21, B. Sivakumar. "Kalki Bhagavan case: 900 acres of benami land attached by I-T | Chennai News – Times of India". The Times of India. Retrieved 10 May 2020.
    • Again a news report, reasonable except for the Godman pejorative
28. "'Kalki' Bhagwan hospitalised". The Hindu. 1 December 2019. ISSN 0971-751X. Retrieved 9 February 2020.
    • News report, not fully public so cannot comment but seems ok
29. "India: a visit to the Oneness Temple of Amma-Bhagwan". Religioscope. 13 July 2008. Retrieved 6 June 2020.
    • Duplicate, same as 16
30. Preethaji; Krishnaji (6 August 2019). The Four Sacred Secrets: For Love and Prosperity, A Guide to Living in a Beautiful State. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-5011-7379-0.
31. "Publishers Weekly". publishersweekly.com. Retrieved 9 May 2020.
    • Book review of a book by Kalki Bhagavan’s son. Why is this relevant?
32. "Society once had religion to give it purpose. Now it has wellness coaches". British GQ. 12 January 2020. Retrieved 9 May 2020.
    • Again an opinion piece
33. Shobha, V (1 November 2019). "The Cult of Kalki Bhagavan". Open The Magazine. Retrieved 16 May 2020.
    • Duplicate, same as 8
34. Thorsen, Elin. "Oneness of Different Kinds: A Comparative Study of Amma and Bhagavan's Oneness Movement in India and Sweden"(PDF). GUPEA. Retrieved 16 May 2020.
35. Ardagh, Arjuna. (2010). Ontwaken in eenheid : de kracht van de oneness blessing in de evolutie van ons bewustzijn. Wel, Anna van der. Houten: Zwerk. ISBN 978-90-77478-32-5. OCLC 662568093.
36. "Oneness Movement – WRSP".
    • Broken link
37. S, Jayaseelan K. (19 October 2019). "The rise of 'Kalki' Bhagwan: From an LIC agent to a self-proclaimed 'avatar'". The Federal. Retrieved 24 May 2020.
    • Opinion piece
38. "Chinese Actress Deletes Her Weibo Post Promoting 'Controversial Indian Spiritual Courses'". News18. 17 January 2019. Retrieved 14 May 2020.
    • Again there is no way that the deletion of a social media post is relevant to a human being’s 75 year life span. I am finding this irrelevant
39. "After Taiwanese Actor's Post, China Warns About Indian 'Cults'". The Quint. 17 January 2019. Retrieved 14 May 2020.
    • This is not a news report, it is an opinion piece
    • One of the problems straight away is a comparison of this with another organization of Ram Rahim. Why is this a valid comparison is not specified.
40. "Mystic and the moolah". The Week. Retrieved 19 May 2020.
    • Duplicate, same as 3
41. "After marathon Income Tax raid, godman Kalki Bhagwan faces ED heat". Hindustan Times. 24 October 2019. Retrieved 15 May 2020.
    • News report, ok
42. Thorsen, Elin. "Oneness of Different Kinds: A Comparative Study of Amma and Bhagavan's Oneness Movement in India and Sweden"(PDF). GUPEA. Goteborgs Universitet. Retrieved 15 May 2020.
    • Duplicate
43. S, Jayaseelan K. (19 October 2019). "The rise of 'Kalki' Bhagwan: From an LIC agent to a self-proclaimed 'avatar'". The Federal
    • Opinion piece.
44. Swamy, Rohini (22 October 2019). "Kalki Bhagavan, guru who started as LIC clerk & now has 'undisclosed income' of Rs 500 cr". ThePrint. Retrieved 29 June 2020.
    • Opinion piece, though initially a news report
45. Newcombe, Suzanne; Harvey, Sarah (15 April 2016). Prophecy in the New Millennium: When Prophecies Persist. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-317-07459-5.
    • Can’t read book but ok
46. Townsend, R. Lataine (4 January 2012). 2013: Beginning an Era of Hope and Harmony. BalboaPress. ISBN 978-1-4525-4342-0.
    • Can’t read book but ok
47. Ganguli, Aurijit (30 May 2020). The Shambala Sutras. Notion Press. ISBN 978-1-64892-982-3.
    • This is about a different Kalki, not relevant
48. "Bhagwan Kalki | Life Positive". lifepositive.com. Retrieved 2 July2020
    • .Duplicate
49. "Investigators seize more than $14 million from spiritual guru Kalki Bhagavan – EasternEye". 22 October 2019. Retrieved 28 June 2020.
    • initially a news report but later
    • Opinion piece - again a comparison with unrelated Ram Rahim is provided
50. Cowan, Douglas E. (2 September 2009). Corrigan, John (ed.). "New Religious Movements". Oxford Handbooks Online: 125–140. doi:10.1093/oxfordhb/9780195170214.003.0008. ISBN 978-0195170214.
    • Don’t have access to this, but even this agrees ‘cult ‘ is a pejorative
51. "Who is Samael Aun Weor?". Samael.org. Retrieved 25 December 2017.
    • 404 page not found
52. Sikand, Yoginder (2008). Pseudo-messianic movements in contemporary Muslim South Asia. Global Media Publications. p. 100.
    • problem even without having read the book - firstly Kalki Bhagavan is in India and India is not a Muslim country
53. Juergensmeyer, Mark (2006). Oxford Handbook of Global Religions. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 520. ISBN 978-0-19-513798-9. ISBN (Ten digit): 0195137981.
    • Not available to read but ok
54. "The Kalki Craze | Outlook India Magazine". outlookindia.com/. Retrieved 7 July2020.
    • Duplicate
55. Sri Bhagavan Interview hosted by Mitchell Jay Rabin for A Better World TV early in 2005, retrieved 8 April 2020
    • Interview, reasonable
56. site admin (17 June 2002). "Cult in crisis – RELIGION News – Issue Date: Jun 17, 2002". Indiatoday.in. Retrieved 11 April 2020.
    • Opinion piece.
57. Nayak, Narendra. "The cult of Kalki by Narendra Nayak". mm-gold.azureedge.net. Retrieved 16 May 2020.
    • Duplicate
58. Arun Ram (17 June 2002). "Kalki Bhagwan controversy: Tamil Nadu-based godman encounters spate of accusations". India Today. Retrieved 25 June 2020.
    • Duplicate
59. "Who is Kalki Bhagwan Who Once Predicted Death of Organised Religions and Now Faces I-T Heat?". News18. 22 October 2019. Retrieved 6 March 2020.
    • Duplicate
60. "The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010–2050". Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project. 2 April 2015. Retrieved 25 June 2020.
    • No objections
61. "The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010–2050". Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project. 2 April 2015. Retrieved 25 June 2020.
    • Duplicate, same as 60
62. Windrider, Kiara; Sears, Grace (2009). Deeksha: The Fire from Heaven. New World Library. ISBN 978-1-57731-724-1.
63. Windrider, Kiara; Sears, Grace (2009). Deeksha: The Fire from Heaven. New World Library. ISBN 978-1-57731-724-1.
    • Duplicate, same as 62
64. Ardagh, Arjuna (1 April 2009). Awakening into Oneness: The Power of Blessing in the Evolution of Consciousness. Sounds True. ISBN 978-1-59179-864-4.
    • Duplicate
65. Calleman, Ph.D, Carl (16 July 2015). "The Mayan Calendar & The Transformation of Consciousness". A Better World. Retrieved 13 June 2020.
    • Book, ok
66. Roth, Ron; Montgomery, Roger (2007). The Sacred Light of Healing: Teachings and Meditations on Divine Oneness. iUniverse. ISBN 978-0-595-44896-8.
    • Book, ok
67. Nadkarni, Vithal C. (26 January 2008). "Oneness to the rescue of a world in peril". The Economic Times. Retrieved 11 April 2020.
    • Duplicate
68. Imranullah, Mohamed (22 November 2019). "'Kalki' Bhagavan's daughter-in-law moves HC against 'look out circular'". The Hindu. ISSN 0971-751X. Retrieved 26 April 2020.
    • Duplicate
69. "Rs 44 cr cash, 90 kg gold, Rs 20 cr worth US dollars seized in I-T raids on properties linked to spiritual guru Kalki Bhagwan". DNA India. 21 October 2019.
    • Duplicate
70. "The Cult of Kalki Bhagavan". Open The Magazine. 1 November 2019. Retrieved 6 May2020.
    • Duplicate, same as 8
71. Ardagh, Arjuna (29 October 2009). Awakening Into Oneness: The Power of Blessing in the Evolution of Consciousness. ReadHowYouWant.com. ISBN 978-1-4587-3614-7.
    • Duplicate
72. "Bhagwan Kalki | Life Positive". lifepositive.com. Retrieved 9 May 2020.
    • Duplicate
73. Convened Insiders, Maverick (6 February 2020). "A controversial babu, a godman, film producers: Meet the faces behind the INR16,000 crore bid for RCom – ET Prime". ET. ET Prime.
    • Again this uses the Godman pejorative, not relevant also
74. "The Cult of Kalki Bhagavan". Open The Magazine. 1 November 2019. Retrieved 4 May2020.
    • Duplicate, same as 8
75. "Nairobi's tallest building planned". Deccan Herald. 22 December 2016. Retrieved 3 May2020.
    • This has no mention of Kalki Bhagavan
    • It mentions the White Lotus group which he is allegedly part of, but that has its own Wikipedia article
76. "Hilton kicks off second Nairobi high-end hotel". Business Daily. 23 May 2017. Retrieved 2 May 2020.
    • No mention of Kalki Bhagavan
    • It mentions the White Lotus group which he is allegedly part of, but that has its own Wikipedia article
77. Monks, Kieron (23 June 2017). "Work begins on the tallest skyscraper in Africa". CNN. Retrieved 3 May 2020.
    • No mention of Kalki Bhagavan
    • It mentions the White Lotus group which he is allegedly part of, but that has its own Wikipedia article
78. "Africa's tallest building aims to be a standout". The Business Times. 24 September 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020
    • Not a public link
79. Wambu, Wainaina. "Nairobi's elegant office space that no one wants". The Standard. Retrieved 3 May 2020.
    • Link doesn’t work
80. "Dubai tycoons sought for contempt of court". Kenyan Tribune. 7 February 2019. Retrieved 3 May 2020.
    • Link doesn’t work
81. "Dubai tycoons sought for contempt of court". Daily Nation. Retrieved 4 May 2020.
    • No mention of Kalki Bhagavan
    • It mentions the White Lotus group which he is allegedly part of, but that has its own Wikipedia article
82. "Vacant school about 1 mile west of the former Northridge Mall proposed for 100 affordable apartments". Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Retrieved 2 May 2020.
    • No mention of Kalki Bhagavan
    • It mentions the White Lotus group which he is allegedly part of, but that has its own Wikipedia article
83. "Dubai investors inject $200 million into Africa's tallest tower". africa.businesschief.com. Retrieved 6 May 2020.
    • Link doesn’t work
84. "Hotel Deco XV is Deco'd out". smallmarketmeetings.com. 11 October 2013. Retrieved 9 May 2020.
    • No mention of Kalki Bhagavan
    • It mentions the White Lotus group which he is allegedly part of, but that has its own Wikipedia article
85. Thorsen, Elin. "Oneness of Different Kinds: A Comparative Study of Amma and Bhagavan's Oneness Movement in India and Sweden"(PDF). GUPEA. Goteborgs Universitet. Retrieved 15 May 2020.
    • Duplicate link
86. "Bangalore franchise kabaddi team launched". Business Standard India. IANS. 16 July 2014. Retrieved 3 May 2020.
    • No mention of Kalki Bhagavan
    • It mentions the White Lotus group which he is allegedly part of, but that has its own Wikipedia article
87. Kosmik Music – YouTube
88. The Cult of Kalki Bhagavan – Open The Magazine
    • Duplicate - same as 8
89. "Studio-N Channel Locked Out?". 9 July 2018.
    • Only mention of Kalki Bhagavan is that it involves people who are “apparently” belonging to the Kalki religious organization
    • Why is that relevant to this article? Is it relevant to mention a Microsoft member in a biography on Bill Gates?
90. . Suares, Coreena (16 October 2019). "IT Sleuths search Kalki Bhagavan's properties in Hyderabad". NewsMeter. Retrieved 6 May2020.
91. June 17, Arun Ram; June 17, Arun Ram; August 6, Arun Ram; Ist, Arun Ram. "Kalki Bhagwan controversy: Tamil Nadu-based godman encounters spate of accusations". India Today. Retrieved 17 May 2020.
    • Duplicate
92. Correspondent, Legal (3 February 2004). "Plea for CBI probe against godman turned down". The Hindu. [1] "
    • The case was turned down!
93. "How Kalki gave me a story, but not an Aishwarya look-alike". Times of India Blog. 4 November 2019. Retrieved 10 June 2020.
    • Duplicate
94. "Mystic and the moolah". The Week. Retrieved 1 May 2020.
    • Duplicate, same as 3
95. Rangarajan, A. d (22 October 2019). "We have not fled the country, says Kalki Bhagavan, after I-T raids on his premises". The Hindu. ISSN 0971-751X. Retrieved 1 May 2020.
    • This is a news report, again uses the word Godman unjustifiably
96. Imranullah, Mohamed (22 November 2019). "'Kalki' Bhagavan's daughter-in-law moves HC against 'look out circular'". The Hindu. ISSN 0971-751X. Retrieved 9 April 2020.
    • Not fully public but looks technical enough
97. Sivakumar, B. (21 December 2019). "Kalki Bhagavan case: 900 acres of benami land attached by I-T". The Times of India. Retrieved 9 April 2020.
    • Duplicate
98. Windrider, Kiara (2006). Deeksha: The Fire from Heaven. New World Library. ISBN 978-1-930722-70-5.
    • Duplicate, same as 62
99. Ardagh, Arjuna (29 October 2009). Awakening Into Oneness: The Power of Blessing in the Evolution of Consciousness. ReadHowYouWant.com. ISBN 978-1-4587-3614-7.
    • Duplicate
100. Reily, Suzel Ana; Dueck, Jonathan M. (16 March 2016). The Oxford Handbook of Music and World Christianities. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-986000-5.
     • There was nothing in the linked page about Kalki Bhagavan
101. S, Jayaseelan K. (19 October 2019). "The rise of 'Kalki' Bhagwan: From an LIC agent to a self-proclaimed 'avatar'". The Federal. Retrieved 7 August 2020.
     • Duplicate
102. "Narayanan, Dr. Vasudha, "A 'White Paper' on Kalki Bhagavan, 29 September 2002", University of Florida, Gainesville, Montclair". msuweb.montclair.edu.
103. S, Jayaseelan K. (19 October 2019). "The rise of 'Kalki' Bhagwan: From an LIC agent to a self-proclaimed 'avatar'". The Federal. Retrieved 9 February 2020.
     • Duplicate
104. Ardagh 2008, Chapter 1,2.
     • Duplicate
105. Arun Ram (17 June 2002). "Kalki Bhagwan controversy: Tamil Nadu-based godman encounters spate of accusations". India Today. Retrieved 5 March 2020.
     • Duplicate
106. site admin (17 June 2002). "Cult in crisis – RELIGION News – Issue Date: Jun 17, 2002". Indiatoday.in. Retrieved 1 March 2020.
     • Duplicate
107. Swamy, Rohini (22 October 2019). "Kalki Bhagavan, guru who started as LIC clerk & now has 'undisclosed income' of Rs 500 cr". ThePrint. Retrieved 12 August 2020.
     • Duplicate
108. "Concerns over health status of Kalki Bhagawan". Deccan Chronicle. 30 October 2016. Retrieved 23 May 2020.
     • This is a news report. At this point, he is referred to as a spiritual Guru.
109. "Kalki Bhagavan hospitalized". mytelangana.com. Retrieved 17 May 2020.
     • Duplicate
110. "Mystic and the moolah". The Week. Retrieved 23 May 2020.
     • Duplicate, same as 3

Aditya the sun (talk) 08:13, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

@NatGertler I have also added a summary of these arguments to the talk page under the heading “reasons why this is an attack page”. My arguments are now ready from my

end to be reviewed. Please take a look! Aditya the sun (talk) 09:12, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested@NatGertler I also want to call out strong bias in the talk page - I have raised specific objections there where guilt is assumed without merit of the claim. I request you to please see those as well. Aditya the sun (talk) 09:23, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I gave the article enough of a look to verify that there were indeed real problems with sourcing... and that there was too much, I hadn't the time nor base knowledge of Indian media to deal with it all. (I did delete one non-verifiable reference, which had been #2, which means that all the numbering the OP gave is now off.) Can someone with more time and willingness take a look at this? -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:37, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I have proposed an edit https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Kalki_Bhagawan&action=history with some of these addressed. I have not removed any information but only tried to make the article more encyclopedic. Please take a look @NatGertler Aditya the sun (talk) 00:58, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

@TechnoSquirrel69 please see my arguments as to why I made my edit which you undid. I am happy to establish consensus but I have raised serious questions about the bias on the talk page. Even @NatGertler acknowledges here that there are serious sources on the page. I was not trying to do an arbitrary edit but have asked @NatGertler to review them. Please take a look at these arguments.

You can see my arguments in the section "Reasons why this is an attack page". There have been no responses to that, and you can see this is a BLP issue. Aditya the sun (talk) 02:08, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

• serious sourcing issues

Aditya the sun (talk) 02:08, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

To be specific this is what I propose as a starting stable version https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Kalki_Bhagawan&stableid=1174685152 for this page to address:

- issues above (not all of them but it's an improvement I believe)

- mitigating the BLP issues

- mitigating the NPOV issues

as raised already. I have tried to keep all information as is, but have removed pejoratives, accusations which assume intent and matched the biography format of most people on the internet or Wikipedia.

Aditya the sun (talk) 02:36, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Cori Schumacher

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Cori Schumacher (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hello, I am Cori Schumacher, the subject of the Wikipedia page Cori_Schumacher. My Wiki user name is Beyawnd8.

After experiencing intense online bullying over the last few years, I am now in a battle to preserve my Wikipedia page. There is an active effort to vandalize my page - Cori_Schumacher. The user is BottleOfChocolateMilk.

What can I do to protect my page from this vandalism effort? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beyawnd8 (talk • contribs) 23:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Can you provide an example or two of the vandalism, and explain why it's vandalism? I see you provided some updated info and an image of questionable copyright status. Otherwise it looks like a plain old edit war and a double case of WP:COI and WP:OWN. JFHJr (㊟) 23:16, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Your edit attempts did highlight some sourcing concerns so I've partially re-instated some of your changes. As for the rest we really need secondary sources for your political career. And as for the pronoun thing, isn't that you X profile? Note as JFHJr said, your Wikipedia biography doesn't belong you. And you really shouldn't have created it yourself. As long as it exists, it needs to follow our policies and guidelines and will not be a hagiography or a biography you explicitly approve of. Nil Einne (talk) 11:20, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Sorry for the pingy invite. On the topic of the subject's interest in preserving this article, its claim to notability looks fuzzy to me. I know a full chart of this size would too big an ask, but does anything here speak for itself to you? WP:POLITICIAN looks distant, and WP:GNG looks questionable given actual topics of coverage in references. Thanks for any attention you might lend. JFHJr (㊟) 06:05, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

User:JFHJr - Am I being asked to review this article and offer my opinion on whether it satisfies biographical notability? If so, I will do that within 24 hours. I will first take a quick look at the history to comment on whether there has been vandalism, or whether the OP is yelling vandalism to "win" a content dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:35, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I see nothing that even remotely resembles vandalism, only a content dispute, but I see that both editors have alleged vandalism by the other. User:Beyawnd8, in the above post, alleges vandalism by User:BottleOfChocolateMilk, and User:BottleOfChocolateMilk makes a similar allegation in an edit summary. Both editors are reminded that Yelling Vandalism in a content dispute is a personal attack. User:Beyawnd8 should not have created an autobiography in article space. That was fourteen years ago, but they still should not be edit-warring about it. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, she satisfies general notability. After checking 12 of the references, 3 of them are qualifying. The article needs to be edited for neutrality, but it passes verifability and notability. Does this answer your question? Robert McClenon (talk) 08:13, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Everything you've contributed here has been helpful. Thanks again for lending your attention. JFHJr (㊟) 00:23, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

@Beyawnd8: Here is where we are by consensus of three experienced editors: 1) no vandalism has occurred; 2) you're operating under a massive conflict of interest, so you should confine your activity to talk page edit requests (each of your requests restating your conflict of interest); 3) you pass notability guidelines, so the article probably couldn't be deleted to assuage the perceived bullying and vandalism your online presence has entailed.

Especially as to point (2), if you or your associates persist in editing or otherwise WP:OWNing it, please expect related discussions at WP:COIN and/or WP:SPI. The WP:COI page offers helpful steps for editors who want to see an article about them edited. Otherwise, step away and stop your edit war, please. Please let me know if we've addressed your concerns and can close this discussion. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 00:47, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Per the subject's last user talk page comment. Sorry I didn't see this before. JFHJr (㊟) 01:12, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Aaron Saucedo

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aaron Saucedo (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I had never heard of Aaron Saucedo until today. The article starts out by saying that Saucedo is "an accused American serial killer". What it should say is that he is accused of being an American serial killer. The first wording implies that he is a serial killer even though the case hasn't gone to trial. Later in the article it says he had a job as a bus driver and while in this job committed "his first murder on August 11, 2015, with a Hi-Point 9mm pistol".

I opened up the page, saw the mugshot in the infobox, read the number of victims, the dates of his killing spree, and believed that this guy was a serial killer. Then I find out that he is only accused of this stuff. This isn't fair to the accused. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 20:47, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I have proposed the article for deletion, as it fails WP:PERPETRATOR -- even if he were to be convicted, he was not otherwise a celebrity, nor has any unusual motivation been given. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:23, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree. For all the multiple murderers in the United States, only a few are actually notable for their crimes. They usually make national news well before conviction (cf. Manson, Bundy, and the Vallow/Daybells). Even if this subject is convicted and then significantly reported in national news, it would still seem difficult to justify an article otherwise entirely based on state-level crime coverage of an otherwise private subject. JFHJr (㊟) 23:40, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Might this BLP not be moved to a more neutral name space? I'd undo my last reversion if it had the name "Phoenix street shootings." Then, coverage of the event could go on without it being a BLP space wise. Of course, concerns regarding the accused and surviving persons remain for attention. JFHJr (㊟) 00:15, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

It seems to have been originally at Maryvale serial shooter. Whether we need an article on that is another question. This doesn't seem to have generated the national coverage of a Son of Sam, nor, seven years after the arrest, has it become a basis for discussing larger topics a la the Murder of Kitty Genovese. But even if we end up with an article there, we should not include a redirect from the suspect's name unless a conviction on a significant portion of the charges is made. But I should note that some of the coverage that is used as reference there are national (such as CNN) or at least non-local (Chicago Tribune carrying AP material.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 01:21, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm hoping for a successful PROD. Otherwise, let's figure out what direction to take this once we know our forum options. JFHJr (㊟) 23:52, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Article is now the subject of a deletion discussion. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:11, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tamaz Somkhishvili

• Tamaz Somkhishvili (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Many of the links claiming cooperation with Russian ministry of defence etc. are libellous and utterly untrue, as they are part of a Ukrainian Black PR campaign to tarnish the name of Mr Somkhishvili due to the ongoing Legal Case he has against the City administration of Kyiv since many years before the war.

They are Piecing together a coat hanger article to try and distort the truth and create a narrative that will help the ukrainians to hide their corruption and their malicious activities by throwing dirt at an innocent person.

Many of the text should be deleted, in fact, the entire article should be deleted.

Please see Press release: https://zaiwalla.co.uk/news/article-detail/zaiwalla-co-acting-for-british-citizen-and-investor-tamaz-somkhishvili-to-seek-redress-through-english-court-for-unlawful-actions-destabilising-court-proceedings-in-ukraine — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.178.17.151 (talk) 15:44, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

You should take your concerns to the article talk page, where germane comments have occurred, but no discussion attempt in over 2 months. This probably didn't need escalation to BLPN right away. But since you're here, would you 1) please clarify that your comment re "libelous" above is in no way a legal threat to editors who may disagree with you; 2) please clarify whether you have any relationship with the subject; and 3) please state what particular sources are problematic and why? That last one, about sources, might as well go on the article talk page... JFHJr (㊟) 22:06, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

@JFHJr It probably needs an experienced copy edit around citizenship. The articles says he has 7 passports and directly mentions British citizenship, but the lede only mentions Russian and Georgian. The other citizenships should probably be noted somewhere like in Shahzada Dawood. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 17:42, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with that prose either way. I don't think that's the OP's gripe either. Thanks for any improvements along OP's gripe, if any. Hopefully, the talk page will again become its immediate content discussion forum. JFHJr (㊟) 03:53, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Ruby Franke

Ruby Franke (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Can I request some eyes on this article about a vlogger who has been accused of child abuse? The article has been expanded by a new editor, Therangerrick, to include unreferenced personal info (which appears to have been removed in an intervening edit) and the names of two minor childrene: their changes on September 5, with some intervening edits by others. I made the following edit with an edit summary detailing the issues: [1]. I followed up with a section on their talk page detailing policy, which they have responded by characterizing as "unhelpful overall": User talk:Therangerrick#Concerns. They then reverted me and followed by removing the two names and making other tweaks. The first-person mentions and grocer's apostrophe remain uncorrected, as does an extra use of the BBC source, but my primary concern is the WP:UNDUE detail on the allegations with dates taken from the video content (and set off as a separate section). The only new source cited by Therangerrick, so far as I can see, is Distractify.com, which I doubt is an RS we should be relying on for added details; the only thing I trust it on is the site at which the petition was created. Rather than revert, and noting that the article was created in a somewhat non-neutral and bloggy style, I request attention from editors with BLP experience. Yngvadottir (talk) 07:52, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Allow me to clarify. Your overall attitude was unhelpful. Anything useful in your response was overshadowed by the way you presented yourself. There was nothing wrong with the policy citations. Therangerrick (talk) 11:25, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

It was a polite note about serious policy violations. That's about as helpful as it gets. Most people would have slapped one (or more) templated warning message(s) on your talk page and been done with it. Instead Yngvadottir took significant time to explain to you in detail why and how your edits violated Wikipedia policies so you can learn from your mistakes. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:32, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. Therangerrick (talk) 18:25, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not even sure why this is even an article? Surely it fails WP:N? Knitsey (talk) 18:38, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Potentially. Though she had 2.5 million subscribers and was quite popular. Therangerrick (talk) 18:57, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't think she was WP-notable before the arrest, and WP:PERP would apply to someone who hasn't been convicted. It's getting coverage because of people's schadenfreude at someone giving advice on parenting and being themselves an (alleged) bad parent. Schazjmd (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree. But it has (more than) three RS and even though they are all WP:NEWSPRIMARY that means if it's taken to AfD people will say "passes GNG". -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:05, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks to Random person no 362478479 for the endorsement of my approach, and to Morbidthoughts for making some changes. Apart from grammar/syntax, the effect of Therangerrick's edits is a matter of balance: they expanded the coverage of the accusations of abuse and set them off under a separate heading for greater impact. They added specifics, including dates, that are not supported by 3rd-party reports, but also removed at least two referenced details, the 5 days a week at 6 am and the "as of" (as a new editor, they may not have understood the function of the template). Since this made the article more sensationalist and since I agree that Distractify is a non-RS, I've gone ahead and largely reverted their changes again, but this time replacing Distractify with NBC News so we can keep the detail of where the petition was. I still don't see a source for one year but since that's a relatively trivial detail, I've kept it from their work with "citation needed" rather than reinstate the vague "early 2020s" wording I originally used. I've reinstated a couple of details that Morbidthoughts had removed because Therangerrick had moved them away from their citations. As to notability: I believe that ship has sailed with extended coverage on unimpeachable news sites, which is why I originally worked on the article. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:55, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

“Sensationalist” lol. This is misrepresentation, in violation of WP:AGF. Again, it was divided into sections for clarity. It was a nightmare to read because it was a huge paragraph that jumped all over the place. Therangerrick (talk) 23:01, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

@Therangerrick: people have been kind with you but it's clearly not working so I'll be blunt. If you want to continue to make edits about living persons, please quick learn the limits and requirements of WP:BLP. Otherwise refrain from making edits about living persons voluntarily so we don't have to topic ban you/make it non-voluntary. There are plenty places you can edit where you making mistakes will cause less harm when you can learn the ropes here. Please remember you and only you are responsible for all edits you make, including any violations of our policies and guidelines. No one has to teach you to be better, and especially no one has to be sufficiently politely or nice with you that you can consider it "helpful" or not "overshadow"ing when you violate our policies and guidelines. Yes we should always do our best to be civil but that doesn't mean we can't be clear on what is and isn't okay. Fixing an article which is poorly written or constructed is fine. But a poorly written or constructed article is far, far better than one with BLP violations so if you're fixing an article by adding BLP violations then you've made it worse and not better. I don't doubt you thought you were improving the article and are here for good reasons, but that still doesn't excuse editing which actively harmed a living person, no matter how much we may dislike said person. Nil Einne (talk) 11:35, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I have remained faithful to neutrality and fixing perceived violations from users who pointed them out and requested changes. Part of that neutrality is being honest and providing clarity to poorly written articles even if that makes people who support said person uncomfortable.

Personally, I don’t have any opinion on Ruby. I don’t know her enough to. However, it’s doing a disservice to WP users to not include all relevant information in a reader-friendly way.

I can’t change @Yngvadottir’s perception of WP policy or myself. I know plenty other users who would disagree on their interpretation of different citations they used. The point is, there should’ve been more constructive conversation and collaboration instead of mass deletion and one-sidedness. Perhaps they chimed in with good intentions. It didn’t come off that way in my opinion.

And now, they’re aggressively policing every edit I make, even away from Ruby’s article.

I am requesting a topic ban on this account. You were polite, even in your frankness which I appreciate. However, I don’t feel comfortable contributing anymore, especially when one user is targeting every move I make. Therangerrick (talk) 13:09, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

@Therangerrick, per your talk page, Yngvadottir isn't the first (or only) editor to bring issues with your edits to your attention. Yngvadottir's message on your talk page was a personal, civil, detailed attempt to help you learn how to edit BLPs on Wikipedia. When a brand-new editor focuses on BLPs and there are issues with their edits on one article, other editors will appropriately examine their edits on other articles as well. There are several new editors that I'm personally monitoring myself right now, to make sure that they stop making the initial errors that were pointed out to them. I suspect that you mean "interaction ban" rather than "topic ban" but there is no basis for one. I doubt that any experienced editor would consider Yngvadottir's communications to you out of line or inappropriate. Schazjmd (talk) 13:47, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Looking through your edit history, unless I miss something, it looks to me like the "aggressively policing every edit I make, even away from Ruby’s article" is one other article, Matt Koleszar, out of the several you have edited since the Ruby matter began. I see no edits from them on Akai Naomasa, Jeff Noble (even though there's a big old "was married to his wife" hanging right out there!), Mahamevnawa Buddhist Monastery, or Lewis Lehrman. The edits on Koleszar looks reasonable, many of them just the kind of thing I'd expect an experienced editor who laid eyes on an article to make. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:43, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

When it comes to articles about living persons there are often situations where a "remove first ask questions later" approach is necessary. Articles about living persons are one of the most sensitive areas. That is why WP:BLP says:

Wikipedia must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.

So what you call "mass-deletion and one-sidedness" is a non-optional duty of any editor. I get that this can feel dismissive, but the simple fact is that some information is just too sensitive to keep it up until after a discussion. That is especially true for personal information and allegations of misconduct (whether legal or ethical). Please read WP:BLP very carefully. Relevant for the case here are among other sections WP:AVOIDVICTIM, WP:BLPPRIVACY, WP:BLPCRIME, WP:BLPNAME. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 18:32, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Jeffrey Katzenberg

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Jeffrey Katzenberg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hello editors, I'm Jeffrey and I work for WndrCo. I was hoping to generate some further discussion on a Talk page post I made on the Jeffrey Katzenberg article (I am not Jeffrey Katzenberg, but I do work for him) related to the addition of some recent content that I don't believe is adequately supported by appropriate sourcing according to the WP:BLP policy. I've laid out the argument in more detail there, but in short, recent content additions make claims that are unsupported by, and in fact are refuted by, the sources referenced in the addition. The content added is simply factually inaccurate according to its own sources. Given that I have a conflict of interest, I have not removed the content myself and am instead hoping to generate a consensus here. Please let me know what you think and if you have any questions. JeffreyAtWndrCo (talk) 23:40, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alejandro Domínguez (football executive)

Before doing a move request, want to get some opinions here. Do people think that Alejandro Domínguez is the most notable of the 4 Alejandro Domínguez on Wikipedia, that instead of a disambiguation page, Alejandro Domínguez is his page? MaskedSinger (talk) 11:06, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

No; his page [and Alejandro Domínguez (footballer, born 1981) have roughly the same number of views per day; neither is far and away the obvious one. A disambiguation page is appropriate. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:52, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

ok great. Thanks for the ruling. MaskedSinger (talk) 19:17, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Walter Benn Michaels

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The [apparent] individual identified as/ at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Benn_Michaels is neither worthy of attention nor demonstrated to be important to users of W. "Citations" invalid, or absent. Note that the article likely is self- created, and the "creator" is a past, as well as present, offender against the rukles and spirit of W. REMOVE AND BLOCK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmacinerney (talk • contribs) 14:14, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Peter Larson

The article Peter Larson has recently been expanded with a heavily negative bent, and the infobox image replaced with what looks like a photo edited to look like a mugshot, which seems to be copyvio. I have reverted the image back to the previous version, but I think that the article needs more outside scrutiny to see whether it complies with BLP. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:42, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I've managed to clean up some of the most egregious misrepresentations of the sources, but some content of the article still maybe undue. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:41, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Amy Schneider edits by 24.38.185.65

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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IP user 24.38.185.65 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has for years been using talk pages as a soapbox, complaining that the article subjects are not "really" the gender that matches their gender identity. On September 9, 2023, the IP user did so again on Talk:Amy Schneider. I gave a warning on that page and on the IP's user talk page. The user responded with vitriol that included more misgendering of the subject and removed a "final warning" from User:Innisfree987. Frankly, the repeated attacks on fellow editors and inappropriate behavior on talk pages would be more than enough to request an IP block, but as I have been informed that purposefully misgendering someone who was not notable pre-transition is a violation of WP:BLP, I am starting here. Please block the user to stop the misgendering and editor attacks, and please provide guidance on how to appropriately remove the WP:BLP-violating content from talk pages. Thank you. --LinkTiger (talk) 16:45, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

@LinkTiger: This is what WP:ANI is for. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:51, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia: Sorry about that. I moved this topic there. --LinkTiger (talk) 16:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Silvia Bulfone-Paus

Silvia Bulfone-Paus (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hi everyone, I've never done this before, so apologies if I'm not doing things correctly. Basically, the Silvia Bulfone-Paus article has lots of phrasing that sticks out to me as very much not neutral - but I wouldn't be filing this if it weren't for the fact that there was something about the entire article that just doesn't feel right. I haven't gone through the sources to compare, but it seems that much of the article's content must have been written by someone with an axe to grind against the subject.

Full disclosure, I'm peripherally connected to the subject - I hadn't heard of her, but I was looking for an article about her husband (and stumbled upon hers instead) because someone I know who works with him professionally had mentioned that his research was well-known.

Again, sorry if I'm not doing this right in any way! Thanks for your time and help. If nothing's amiss here, then feel free to dismiss this—I just wanted to reach out in case my hunch is right after all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.233.98.4 (talk) 23:05, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

If something "just doesn't feel right" you'll need to point to the problematic prose and/or refs. I notice you didn't begin a discussion at the article talk page. That might be a good place to start with it, when you can put your finger on it. This article was not written by a someone, but many editors. Otherwise, it is sometimes the case that people become notable due to notoriety. JFHJr (㊟) 23:39, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

There is some serious ass puffery of the controversy in this edit.[2] I sure didn't see any "mainstream" citations in the article. Another example of the problem of wikipedia basically being a CV repository for academics. Anything that actually gets them secondary coverage is blown out of proportion in the big picture of things. Morbidthoughts (talk) 01:09, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

@Morbidthoughts: Your edits are a great improvement. It's unfortunate that there isn't more secondary coverage about her accomplishments. ~Anachronist (talk) 01:37, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

There still is way too much WP:UNDUE detail about the misconduct based on Retraction Watch, a blog previously disputed on this noticeboard.[3]. It needs to be chopped down at some point to maintain WP:BLPBALANCE. Morbidthoughts (talk) 02:29, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Scotty Kilmer

Looks like an advert for his YouTube channel. He's not actually a trained mechanic, but claims to have an anthropology degree. He's causing quite a stir with advice on there which is definitely wrong and could even cause damage. Someone with experience need to decide if this page is relevant as he's only really YouTube famous and appears to claim to be an expert when he is not actually trained in the area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.41.109.180 (talk) 12:02, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Scotty Kilmer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Note it doesn't matter if someone is "only really YouTube famous". We don't care about fame here on Wikipedia, instead we care about WP:notability primarily whether other reliable secondary sources have covered a subject in depth. Looking at the article, the sourcing isn't very good so it might be the subject is not notable but that is what matters, not whether he's "only really YouTube famous".

As for the rest, our article claims with this not very good source [4] that he is in fact a mechanic and was a mechanic for far longer than he was involved in anthropology. It sounds like his training largely came observing (and maybe assisting) his father and grandfather and then I guess later doing it himself; possibly not the best training but I'm fairly sure something fairly common for a lot of older mechanics. Probably even still not that uncommon in at least some parts of the US in early 1980s when he seems to have started as a mechanic. (It's also possible there was some additional more formalised training that simply isn't mentioned in the source.)

There are of course plenty of working and trained car mechanics who do things that are wrong or which they otherwise shouldn't. And a few (admittedly fewer and fewer as the stuff they are dealing with gets more complicated) who do great work despite having little in the way of formal training. So that's all neither here nor there.

Our assumption is if there are decent reliable secondary sources on the subject, they will talk about things that matter such as whether his advice is actually any good. If there are decent secondary sources talking about Scotty Kilmer, which admittedly I'm not sure there is, but none of them actually talk about whether his advice is any good, it's not really something we can deal with.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:32, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Jim Anderson (loyalist)

Jim Anderson (loyalist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) contains an unsourced, and apparently unverifiable, claim of death. Some history will be useful. On 23 May 2019 our article had his name as James (obviously Jim is a common nickname for people named James, so nothing to worry about there). Then on 23 July 2019 his name was changed to "Leonard James Anderson" with a claimed death date of 27 June 2019. That someone of that name from Belfast has died can be unreliably sourced by this death notice or several placed in a Belfast newspaper. However none of them are reliable for a claim of death, and we don't even know it's the same person anyway. Any ideas on how this should be handled? I'm thinking the claimed death needs to be removed, since I cannot find any reliable source that the subject of out article is in fact dead. Kathleen's bike (talk) 16:30, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

You make good case for the death to be removed. Beyond that, the sourcing of the page is just to three sources, all books... and one of those three (Red Hand) is used only for statements that do not directly refer to the subject. I know nothing about the topic and cannot speak to the reliability of the two other books, but it's enough to make me at least ask whether the subject meets our notability guidelines. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 17:39, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

I have the same impression. JFHJr (㊟) 04:24, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

You might also ask Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland if anyone over there knows more and can help. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 17:49, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

I have documented what the books say at Talk:Jim Anderson (loyalist)#Notification. My belief is that the handful of facts about this person that can be reliably sourced are insufficent to write an article, and can be covered in context at the Ulster Defence Association article. Kathleen's bike (talk) 14:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree. The article name space should be redirected. AGF for the death date well over a year old/ago, this is probably not the right forum. BLPN is for the living and those recently deceased. 2019 is not recent enough. JFHJr (㊟) 03:04, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

That the problem originated in 2019 isn't actually that relevant, according to WP:BDP he's considered alive unless we have a reliable source that he's dead which we don't since nobody has said any of the death notices can be used. I have formally proposed a merge on the article's talk page. Kathleen's bike (talk) 10:32, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Poupette Kenza

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This article was recreated on 2 September 2023 following deletion at AfD on 5 May 2023. A variety of potential BLP issues may exist as this article is continuing to be developed, including for the minor children of the article subject, so ongoing review by editors, including by editors who can read French, is requested. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 23:53, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

The article creator has repeatedly added contentious content about the article subject and their minor children that appears to breach several aspects of WP:BLP policy, after being alerted to the contentious topic area and after warnings, including about edit warring. Beccaynr (talk) 00:38, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, BLP issues can be addressed here. But the bulk of your comments belong at WP:ANI. Although some participants here are admin, most are just editors. Since the article is up for speedy now, most who would agree with you wouldn't edit it and couldn't address or sanction user behavior. JFHJr (㊟) 01:51, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I will note for those who cannot read French that a handful of sources are reliable (but negative), and the rest are less reliable (and mostly just as negative). What you'd expect from an online personality covered more mainstream for being fined for commercial activity. JFHJr (㊟) 01:59, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you - at this point, the edit warring seems to have ceased, and I have left a comment [5] on the article Talk page about the WP:BLP policy issues as I see them with regard to this content [6]. I rapidly removed the content because of the nature of the allegations and the content about the children - some of this appears to be related to a complaint made to a prosecutor, not by a prosecutor, and also a months-earlier report about something a prosecutor said, and a months-later action by legislators presented as happening "at the same time"; with further time to review, translate, and assess the sources, there may be a way to create some BLP-compliant content, but it seemed best to immediately remove the contentious content and graphic description, and instead proceed very carefully before restoring any of it. This content was automatically tagged as "possible BLP issue or vandalism" when it was added. Beccaynr (talk) 02:48, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

My impression is the BLP depends mostly on coverage the WP:BLP1E/WP:BLPCRIME for most of its content, even innocuous details seemingly unrelated. If all coverage actually about the fine is removed, a clearer picture might appear. It's not evident that this is a particularly spectacular fine to merit coverage as a basis for a BLP. JFHJr (㊟) 03:53, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, if there is primarily sensationalized coverage, this would seem to create a variety of BLP problems; for now, help monitoring the article for serious BLP violations would be appreciated, because I am basically done for the day. Beccaynr (talk) 04:25, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Geoff Metcalf

• Geoff Metcalf (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

The entire article is practically unsourced, as it has only 3 sources, only one being related to the article remotely. This means the article is held together by no real evidence. Unfortunately, the article has had these issues cited since May 2008 and appears to have lost traction. Asking here to see if anyone is able to find valid sources before I possibly tag for deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UnexpectedSmoreInquisition (talk • contribs) 14:38, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I say go for it. I looked but nothing jumped out at me as far as sourcing an encyclopedic biography. JFHJr (㊟) 21:12, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I removed the 3 "sources" after looking into each one and determining each one was bullshit. My edit summaries in removing each contain finer language and detail. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 04:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Glad we came to the same conclusion. Unfortunate to see an article with such extensive detail be entirely without a valid source. Don't feel that bad about deletion now, though. I'm guessing that back in 2008, it was more of a wild west for articles, because I think a modern editor would have a conniption if they saw the sources. UnexpectedSmoreInquisition (talk) 11:13, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

C. Nicole Mason

C. Nicole Mason (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Posting here because this is an obscure page (stats show only 5 page watchers) and posting on talk probably won't get any attention. As tipped off by an IP edit today, Dr. Mason was supposedly removed from her post as President & CEO of the Institute for Women's Policy Research in January this year, after allegations of toxic management and very high turnover under her leadership, both as reported by The American Prospect ([7], [8]). The second of The Prospect reports quotes an anonymous source saying she was fired, but also refers to a statement by the organization's Board that the decision for her to depart was mutual. I have not found any other sources for any of this. Websites published since that supposedly happened now refer to her as President & CEO Emeritus (or Emerita in some cases), such as this program for the 2023 Feminist State of the Union event which was held in April. She's also listed this way in a few professional directories but they are undated. She is not listed on the organization's website, and on their news feed their press releases abruptly stopped listing her as author after a release on January 20, 2023 (the next is dated February 7 and doesn't name an author). The organization lists someone else as their Interim CEO, and they have posted a vacancy for the permanent position. The IP who made the edit alleged that the "emeritus" position was created for her after being removed, but that was not supported by the source. Our page on the organization has also not been updated to reflect any of this.

I'm not sure how to reflect this in her bio appropriately, or even if she should have a separate bio in the first place. Suggestions welcome. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:12, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

What is she notable for? I'm certain that a top 50 award doesn't make all 50 notable. The other significant coverage of the subject is rather negative and problematic, BLP-wise. Usually, she's a commentator about a different subject entirely. In a few sources, she's talking about herself (her own publication), which can't explain her notability. Links to associated organizations show she had her job, but fail to indicate why that fact was encyclopedically significant; it's certainly not an inherently notable line of work. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 20:45, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

This looks to me like a perfect example of why we need higher standards for notability for BLP subjects. The article reads like a resume. It even has that sort of promotional "hire me" tone. Most of the sources look like primary ones, but she does have a few articles about her in some reliable sources, and because of that it will be difficult to get it past AFD, because to some any RS coverage is enough to warrant an article. I tend to look at it a little more pragmatically. A bio should be far more than a simple resume, and if we can't find enough sources to give us at the leasr the very basic biographical details, then there's no point in even creating an article. (In my opinion, we should have enough biographical info to make a decent start-class article, as a bare minimum.) I often use this as an example, but it's a good one, so I'll use it again. Casey Anthony was in the news a lot. Had a lot of coverage, to the point where few people hadn't heard of her. Yet, in all of it there really isn't enough on her to make a decent bio, so instead all info about her is described in the article about the event rather than disguising it as a pseudo-biography. To me, that's how I look at this case. But, alas, the threshold for notability is very low and it will be almost impossible to delete this article, so a resume is what we're stuck with. Zaereth (talk) 21:57, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Dominic Ng

• Dominic Ng (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article has been mentioned before but I'm hoping some more BLP experienced eyes for one particular issue at Talk:Dominic Ng#Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference on whether the subject's participating in the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference is WP:DUE for the lead. Nil Einne (talk) 02:25, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

By way of further explanation, at the moment we have a bunch of editors who may have a CoI or otherwise seem to be new who are opposed, one experienced editor who keeps adding it back unfortunately without explaining why they feel it is DUE (I'm dealing with that elsewhere), and basically me as the only experienced editor engaged in the talk page and I don't really know (which means I'm leaning towards exclude). The article is in a bit of a mess and also very short, making it fairly unclear what is and isn't due beyond their main job. I will also try to seek help from Wikiproject China although that seems fairly inactive. Nil Einne (talk) 02:25, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in, @Nil Einne. I've suggested a rewrite on the talk page. INFjorder (talk) 06:39, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Unsure if it matters, but do note that this article was raised here 20 days ago: Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive352#Dominic_Ng. – robertsky (talk) 03:05, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I think participation in the conference is probably noteworthy enough for a lede mention (one line), with slightly more below, but not much more. That's because of the nature of membership in the consultative body and the nature of the body as an institution. It's not representative, it has no power (advisory only), but it does reflect national, regional, and local policy. It's just sort of important, nothing to indicate notability, but probably noteworthy enough for a mention or two. JFHJr (㊟) 03:06, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Lisa Nowak FA

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The subject is an astronaut who then committed some sort of crime of passion. This is being run as an FA today and so I started some discussion at WP:ERRORS where I suggested that this might be contrary to WP:BLP. This noticeboard handles such issues too and may be better for longer-term discussion as WP:ERRORS doesn't do that. Please advise. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:16, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The comments there are also of concern. This includes the suggestion that being publicly pilloried on wikipedia would be a deterrent for committing crime. This could urgently do with some admin attention as it seems some very poor judgement is at play here. WCM_email 12:25, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

TFA has now been changed. I have seen no indication of faulty weight in the article, the lead or the TFA blurb-- the argument was one of common decency with respect to mainpage exposure-- so I hope this is resolved now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Priya Venkatesan

Please delete this page since it contains inaccurate, misleading, defamatory and biased information on the person the subject of the biography. The following links accurately represent my public image, as a prominent stakeholders in the precision medicine and oncology community. I am an elected member of prestigious medical societies: the American Society for Clinical Oncology, the American College of Medical Genetics and Genomics and the Society for Immunotherapy of Cancer. Additionally, I have many publications that received notable recognition from the scientific and medical community.

http://www.haysdocumentationspecialists.com

LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/priya-hays-60866025/

Advancing Healthcare Through Personalized Medicine Second Edition: https://www.springer.com/us/book/9783030800994

Twitter post of ASCO Connection mention of Second Edition posted by Springer: https://twitter.com/SpringerClinMed/status/1486036036018917377

Book review of Second Edition by Doody’s Medical Books Reviewer: http://www.doody.com/dej/PublicTitle.asp?ISBN=9783030800994#Title

Research Features edition of Advancing Healthcare Through Personalized Medicine https://researchfeatures.com/documenting-dramatic-evolution-personalised-medicine/

ASCO Post Book Review of Second Edition: https://ascopost.com/issues/may-25-2022/a-second-edition-adds-new-value-to-personalized-medicine/

Cancer Immunotherapies: Solid Tumors and Hematologic Malignancies: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-96376-7

Precision Oncology article (on page 98) Open Access Government (pagesuite-professional.co.uk)

I am kindly requesting that you delete this biography page or delete the current content and replace with this accurate information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Priya.hays (talk • contribs) 16:19, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

fariha roisin

Hello, I am acting on behalf of the living person, Fariha Roisin. I was tasked to write an updated article, so I did, edited it, published it, and it has since been taken down. I need assistance getting my previous, updated version restored.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.150.85.195 (talk) 16:56, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Article in question: Fariha Róisín – robertsky (talk) 17:05, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The content that you added to that article in August was unreferenced and therefore fails the core content policy Verifiability. Cullen328 (talk) 18:09, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Liesl Folks

This edit adds contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and is potentially libellous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BalsamDewberry (talk • contribs) 17:23, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I did some cleanup on the article, but it could use more eyes as there is a persistent WP:SPA restoring poorly sourced claims. Schazjmd (talk) 19:04, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Requesting inputs

Requesting inputs to review notability @ Talk:Anirudh Devgan#Notability for clearer consensus. Bookku (talk) 18:19, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Eugene Gu

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Eugene Gu is probably best known for his former presence on Twitter, including his part in a lawsuit against Trump blocking him, which was found in his favour. He has been subject to a number of controversies, including allegations of sexual abuse towards a former partner and operating sockpuppet accounts to attack critics. These have been covered in reliable sources, such as this article in The Verge [9] from 2019 (A pro se lawsuit by Gu against The Verge for the article was dismissed this year [10]). In a RfC from 2021, there was found to be a consensus against adding a specific wording mentioning the sexual abuse allegations (see Talk:Eugene_Gu/Archive_2), though I am not sure that the consensus of that RfC was against mentioning the allegations generally or that specific wording. The sexual abuse allegations have not been mentioned in any recent versions of the article. Recently, two infrequently active accounts have been tag-team edit warring to remove any reference to his presence on Twitter citing BLP, including newspaper articles regarding the Trump lawsuit, which I do not understand to be contentious. I suspect that these accounts are operated by the same individual, who may be close to Mr. Gu, and as such I have opened a SPI, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/ScienceForeverLife. As I am at the 3RR, I would appreciate outside input on the matter. Thanks. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:51, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

John DeLorean

Three edits way back in March by an IP user deleted content the editor thought unjustified: [11]; [12]; [13]. In their ESs they made some comments I think could easily be viewed as defamatory—or at least highly unnecessary!— about still-living relatives of DeLorean. I have no knowledge of DeLorean or related topics, but a brief online search does not surface anything along the lines of the editor's comments (to do with family relationships).

I have undone the edits, making some additional changes, but the edits themselves are not a BLP issue, I believe; the summaries themselves may well be. AukusRuckus (talk) 07:52, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Taylor Swift - editor complaining she's loved by the alt-right so shouldn't be on the front page

User talk:Doug Weller#Taylor Swift, User talk:Black Kite#The FA reads like an advertisement and this version of User:Chbarts"s talk page.[14]] Doug Weller talk 16:16, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Clearly, Wikipedia holds no responsibility for the fantasies of the alt-right. Having said that, there may well be legitimate grounds to question the repeated appearance of Ms Swift on the main page, as a part of a broader discussion regarding what might be seen as promotional content there. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:01, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm currently watching a Swift article in the approved DYK nominations queue that I strongly intend to let sit there for at least several more weeks. I was hoping there might be an opportunity to promote it in two weeks or so given it'd been a while since the next Swift article by then...and then we ended up with a 36-hour Swift TFA, so, hopefully that author can wait three months or so. (I'm currently working on a narrow-topic article series and have given multiple other active prepbuilders instructions to space them the hell out.)

DYK tends to go through subject phases. There are staples (NYC buildings, radio/TV stations, etc), but at any given point we often have an excess of a particular niche that eventually burns through; right now it's songs and American footballers. Often when we have an excess of songs from a particular act it's a popular enough act (as Swift is) to be unremarkable in and of itself, but it can cause issues when they're clustered too close to one another, as has come up at DYK talk during the period after Swift's latest album release. At the moment we're in the unusual situation of an excess of songs from a little-known act, which no one seems to quite know how to deal with -- it stands out even more to have a rapid flow of hooks about a niche musician than a popular one. There are sort of de facto 'slow tracks' and 'fast tracks' at DYK depending on hook quality, image presence, subject matter, etc; it might be interesting to enshrine that clustered nominations on such subjects are slow-tracked.

By the way, if anyone has some nice non-promotional articles for the main page, I am constantly looking for OTD candidates that are pre-18th century (pre-11th especially, BC era a shoo-in), non-Western, or both. OTD tends to be fairly promotionalism-immune -- even the rare product releases we run are by definition old and often not commercially available -- but this presents the alternative problem of trying not to fall backwards into building Today's Battle and Hurricane. Vaticidalprophet 17:24, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I do agree with User:AndyTheGrump and I think he stated my case extremely well. —chbarts (talk) 19:21, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

@Chbartsbut your complaint was about support from the alt-right, not frequency. Does this mean you no longer are worried about that? Doug Weller talk 21:12, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I am worried about both Wikipedia appearing to promote commercial interests and the hint of alt-right nonsense. Swift is just a "perfect storm" of both of those things. —chbarts (talk) 23:58, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I have to disagree. There may be a bunch of idiots who like Taylor Swift, but their views are so irrelevant that AFACT, there is zero mention in our article which is an FA so we can assume has decent coverage of anything relevant. Perhaps some of these idiots will be happy when Taylor Swift related content appears on the main page, but in reality what these idiots don't realise is that what quality content on Taylor Swift reflects is that she's almost diametrically opposed to what they stand for. Nil Einne (talk) 00:43, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I mean its true she shouldn't be on the front page again but that reasoning is just silly. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:53, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• White nationalists also like polo shirts. They're also popular with golfers. I'm pretty sure Taylor Swift's main demographic is gay guys, teenage girls who sneak a hard lemonade when mom isn't looking, and mom's who drink hard lemonade and wish they were teenagers again. GMG^talk 19:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  @GreenMeansGo sorry, that’s wrong. Here’s an analysis, note that over half of Americans are fans (please let’s avoid criticising any nationality).

  Taylor Swift fandom demographic Doug Weller talk 21:16, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Doug Weller: Did I criticize a nationality? Also there are fans, and then there are fans. I was specifically thinking of the two guys I know who have tattoos of her lyrics. But the demos seem about right. A huge chunk of her fan base are Democratic, white, suburban, millennials. Anyway, the point being that the focus on the alt right here is a complete non sequitur. The alt right likes Tucker Carlson because he says alt right things. They just like Taylor Swift because she's white, pretty, and famous. GMG^talk 21:51, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Don't sweat it GMG. It's obvious you were being humorous. Your analysis of the situation is spot on, I think. It's the kind of rationale I would just ignore, because distracting one's attention from the real issue is the purpose of a non-sequitur. Zaereth (talk) 23:38, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not much of a Taylor Swift fan myself, but I'm not sure if it's helpful to pigeon hole her fans in inaccurate ways. It's fine to offer reasonable criticism of something when relevant, but it's unhelpful for community building to make inaccurate claims which just annoy everyone. I'd also note that plenty of white, sururban, millennials are neither mums nor gay guys; and they're definitely not teenagers. Finally, I'd note that as much as Trump has unfortunately made alt-right views more acceptable, there are still plenty of mainstream conservatives even in the US who reject neo-Nazism. So even if Taylor Swift fans actually leaned conservative, it doesn't somehow make her alt-right fans more relevant. So I don't actually understand the point either of you are trying to make TBH. AFAICT everyone in this discussion except "chbarts" agrees the fact that some idiot Nazis consider Taylor Swift an Aryan goddess totally irrelevant to anything. And we all agree that they are such a tiny minority of her fan base (without needing to pigeonhole it), combined with a group that doesn't tend to survive well on an encyclopaedia based on reliable secondary sources; that the chances they've had much influence in her articles being written, and making it to the main page is very small. The only question and AFAICT the reason this is even here in the first place, is whether chbarts going around continually bringing up her alt-right fanbase is a BLP issue. IMO it's not since it appears to have some truth covered in reliable secondary sources. And while it may be largely irrelevant to anything on Wikipedia, for someone as notable as Taylor Swift, I don't think it matters much that that someone keeps bringing it up. If they should be blocked, it would IMO mostly be for WP:DROPTHESTICK reasons rather than BLP. Nil Einne (talk) 00:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

  I'd also note that while it's quite likely many of the people involved in creating Taylor Swift articles are fans, the sort of superfans GMG refers to with tattoos of her lyrics tend to be the sort of people we'd much rather do not get involved in creating articles related to her. Long experience suggests they're often incapable of creating good encyclopaedic content especially assessing sources covering her or her works and obeying WP:NPOV. Since this seems to at least partially related to the FA on Love Story (Taylor Swift song), my assumption is that few super fans were involved at least in doing the work that made it a FA. In fact, I'd go so far to say while it doesn't matter quite as much, my hope would be it's the same number involved as neo-Nazi's i.e. zero. I'd also add that someone's personal views don't always align with a majority of their fanbase. The obvious example would be J. K. Rowling where I think it's fairly well accepted that a significant chunk of her traditional fanbase reject one particular area of her views. I don't think putting J. K. Rowling as TFA can reasonably be said to be promoting her views, but if someone were to make that claim, I don't see that talking about the general views of her fan base is particularly relevant. Ultimately it's irrelevant at least when it comes to FA since if the article is actually an FA it shouldn't be promotional of particular views beyond reflecting what reliable secondary sources say about such views. Hence why it's fine for us to have even Tucker Carlson as TFA if the article ever made if to that. And of course an FA being promotional of what the subject's (or creator of the subject's) general fan base think, should hopefully be a least as unlikely. Nil Einne (talk) 01:22, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Problems with the Controversies section in the Martha G. Welch article

Hi, I’m here at the advice of User:ScottishFinnishRadish to call attention to serious problems with the Martha G. Welch#Attachment therapy controversy section. It includes highly inaccurate and what appear to be intentionally inflammatory statements, as well as flawed and improper original analysis that inaccurately ties Welch to the injury and death of children by other therapists she had no involvement with. I’m an employee of ClarBright, a communications firm which represents Dr. Welch, so I have a conflict of interest. I will only report problems and propose solutions rather than edit the article.

For reference, here is the current version of this section (as of the last edit to the page made on August 12, 2023):

Attachment therapy controversy

Welch was a proponent of a form of the controversial practice of attachment therapy, and originated a variety of it sometimes termed Festhaltetherapie, Holding Time, or Prolonged Parent–Child Embrace. The practice has been proposed as a means of treating autism or preventing problems in the parent/child relationship. It includes forcing a child to face their mother while seated on her lap, arms restrained by crossing them in front of the child. For larger children, the mother instead lies on top of the child while supporting herself partially with her elbows. The mother and child are then encouraged to express their emotions to one another while in this position.

While the variety of attachment therapy promoted by Welch has not been associated with the child injuries and deaths that have been associated with similar forms of attachment therapy, it has been subject to controversy. One researcher has pointed out that several aspects of the practice would be classified as adverse childhood experiences if done outside a clinical context. These aspects include causing children physical pain and fear of pain, restraint, and causing children to feel as if they have no one to protect them. They have also noted that the genetic basis for autism makes this form of attachment therapy, which aims to cure autism by repairing the mother/child bond, implausible as a treatment for autism. Other critics have noted that attachment therapy practices, including "physical coercion, psychologically or physically enforced holding, physical restraint, physical domination, provoked catharsis, [and] ventilation of rage" are not recommended and should not be used because they lack proven benefit and risk harming the child.

• Much of the criticism is not about Welch. It conflates Welch’s book Holding Time with the work and practices of others, some of which is extreme and dangerous. This is WP:COATRACKING. This is a bio and should be firmly focused on Welch’s work, not on dangerous spinoff therapies advocated by others.
• There is WP:OR by this editor to connect Welch to extreme practices that have caused death and injury to children, which this editor acknowledges with OR commentary are not part of Welch’s therapy (“While the variety of attachment therapy promoted by Welch has not been associated with the child injuries and deaths…). Welch, in fact, has [condemned| https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/science-nurturing-impact-premature-babies] these extreme practices.
• These paragraphs are the sole explanation in this article of Welch’s work on holding therapy - and are an inaccurate characterization of Welch’s work. She does not advocate physically “forcing” or “restraining” children as part of this therapy[15]
• These paragraphs are based almost entirely on a single polemical journal article that has received very little independent scholarly attention or support (16 citations) and was published in a relatively obscure journal (as determined by its impact factor.) While there is certainly grounds for Mercer’s viewpoint to receive mention, the amount of weight being given to this obscure source is WP:UNDUE.
• Mercer’s criticisms of Welch and her work should also be attributed to her by name because it is one author’s critique rather than a medical study or a meta-analysis of the literature. Several of Mercers’ opinions are stated as facts where they are not.
• Much of the language violates neutral point of view and is inconsistent with the “tone” policy set down in WP:BLPSTYLE.
• Welch’s condemnation of the extreme methods that this section implies she advocates is not included. See: [16].
• Several sources do not verify claims. For example, the citations to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution and the Welch et al 2006 paper do not say that a child is forced or restrained during the therapy advocated by Welch. The sources describe a parent embracing a child in a seated position.

I give a sentence by sentence breakdown in more detail below, following my proposed replacement version:

Because of the serious problems noted above, here’s a new version I wrote that I feel would resolve the BLP concerns while maintaining other parts of the section that discuss reasonable critiques rather than launch polemical attacks:

Holding Time and Prolonged Parent-Child Embrace (PPCE)

Welch wrote a 1989 book called Holding Time. . Welch’s recommended treatment method in Holding Time involved daily sessions of emotional bonding that were to take place with a child seated on their mother’s lap with the child’s legs wrapped around her waist and their arms tucked under her armpits, and the mother holding the child in this position for up to an hour. Welch claimed that this technique increased communication and emotional connection between parent and child. In 2006, Welch and colleagues introduced a revised version of Holding Time therapy that was called “Prolonged Parent-Child Embrace” (PPCE) therapy.

Welch’s therapy has attracted criticism. In 2006, Chaffin et al noted that critics of Welch’s Prolonged Parent-Child Embrace or Holding Time therapies consider the prolonged contact between child and parent to be “coercive or humiliating,” while proponents of the practice argue that it is “gentle or nurturing” instead. Psychologist Jean Mercer wrote a paper that was critical of Welch’s Holding Time and Prolonged Parent-Child Embrace therapies as well as other forms of attachment therapies, but she also noted in that paper that “No reports of physical or psychological injury are known to have been associated with Welch’s ‘holding time’ or PPCE”. Mercer also argued that Welch should be considered the originator of several forms of attachment therapies that involved holding. According to PBS NewsHour in May 2017, “some of Welch’s ideas were… co-opted by other practitioners to promote increasingly physical and coercive techniques”, which Welch said she had “nothing to do with”, does not condone and was “devastated to be associated with”.

I’ve focused the section so it describes Welch’s work, then accurately describes the academic criticism of it. However, I have removed statements from the existing version that do not specifically involve a criticism of Welch. Again, Welch’s work should not be conflated with the body of attachment therapy, most of which is contrary to Welch’s therapeutic recommendations and which she has condemned.

For those who want an in-depth look at the problems with the current section, below I have highlighted the issues in individual sentences:

Paragraph 1, Sentence 1: This sentence improperly orients the section around criticism of a controversial therapeutic movement called attachment therapy rather than Welch’s specific work, which has been considerably more mainstream. This sentence also contains WP:TMI about various names given to forms of attachment therapies (including those developed by scholars other than Welch).

Paragraph 1, Sentence 2: This sentence is WP:COATRACKING since it is about attachment therapies more broadly, not about Welch or her specific work in this field.

Paragraph 1, Sentence 3: This sentence uses non-neutral language (e.g., “forcing a child”) to present a critic’s POV in the voice of Wikipedia. It is also unsourced and inaccurate. For an accurate description of Welch’s therapeutic recommendations, please see [2006 PAPER].

Paragraph 1, Sentence 4: This sentence cites a Welch et al 2006 paper which implies that Welch advocates a therapy practice involving mothers lying on top of larger children while supporting themselves with their elbows. However, the 2006 Welch et al paper does not propose or even mention this technique.

Paragraph 2, Sentence 1: This sentence is original analysis WP:FORUM, WP:COATRACKING and fails WP:Verify. It blackens Welch’s name by obliquely referencing incidents that injured or killed children that have nothing to do with Welch or her work.

Paragraph 2, Sentence 2: This sentence inappropriately presents Jean Mercer’s argument as fact in the voice of Wikipedia with the phrase “has pointed out”, which implies that Mercer’s view is not just an opinion. As was already discussed above, Mercer’s POV should be carefully attributed to her and presented as an argument instead of being dressed up as established and well-accepted medical “fact”.

Paragraph 2, Sentence 4: Here again, this statement should be attributed directly to Mercer, but is being presented more neutrally with a WP:WEASEL use of “They”.

Paragraph 2, Sentence 5: This report does offer criticisms of attachment therapies, but it only discusses Welch in the context of her book Holding Time. At no point in their report do the authors explicitly criticize Welch or her specific work in this field.

Thanks for considering this request. KnollLane55901 (talk) 19:48, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

This is something of a WP:WALLOFTEXT, but my opinion on these types of issues is usually the same: we shouldn't be isolating controversies at all. They should just be written into the biography as part of her career. If it doesn't fit as part of her career, it probably doesn't belong in the article. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:30, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I have to agree with Thebiguglyalien here. You'd do best to try tackling these issues one at a time, because trying to respond to all your points at once will be very difficult, to say the least. I also think it off-balances an article to have anything negative walled off in a section labeled "controversies". First, a controversy is a "large, widespread public debate". It's not a lawsuit, or an argument, or a speeding ticket, or whatever. One person deeming something is controversial does not a controversy make. Second, it's like loading all the heavy stuff on one side of the boat; you'll tip it over. It just throws the whole article off balance, which becomes a serious NPOV issue. Negative info should be worked into the timeline right along side the positive. (Besides, it's far more believable that way and reads better.) A benefit of doing it that way is it's easier to judge weight and balance, and helps to weed out all the fluff, so that's where I would recommend starting. I hope that helps. Zaereth (talk) 23:50, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I went through and again removed all the synth/contracting I found and worked a bit into the career section. This was very similar to the content that I removed oh so long ago. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:02, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum

I've found content under Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum#Princess Haya escape which are not supported by the sources used and in this edit and the three that followed I removed content (see edit summaries for why.)

User User:Woufeq reverted these twice and refuses to discuss. Can others here please take a look at the section? I'm new and don't know how to resolve this dispute. FossilWave (talk) 04:39, 16 September 2023 (UTC)