Talk:Young adult literature

Tolkien

No mention of Tolkien in the article. This seems odd, even though The Lord of the Rings is categorised, sometimes, as adult fiction: "Of Tolkien's works, the YA library should have The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, and also Unfinished Tales - with further material from The Silmarillion". Rwood128 (talk) 18:14, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Tolkien is not YA nor was his work significant to YA. Dan Bloch (talk) 21:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Not even "The Hobbit?

The Hobbit was nominated for the Carnegie Medal and awarded a prize from the New York Herald Tribune for best juvenile fiction of the year (1938). More recently, the book has been recognized as "Most Important 20th-Century Novel (for Older Readers)" in the Children's Books of the Century poll in Books for Keeps. (from the Wikipedia article The Hobbit)

I did more research and found that HarperCollins markets The Lord of the Rings for ages 9 to adult. And of course it is a sequel to The Hobbit. See also the Boston Public Library's catalogue.

Sorry, I was in a hurry when I wrote this and I missed that citation did say that Tolkien was YA. I think this is still really questionable. The original source of this essay, the "St. James Guide", includes nearly 500 authors, using a very expansive criterion; apparently just that some YA age readers read these books. This is not the criteria that librarians and publishers use. The St. James Guide includes many adult authors (Arthur Conan Doyle, Aldous Huxley, Elie Wiesel, Ayn Rand, Sylvia Plath, etc.) and some middle grade authors. But it is a reliable source by Wikipedia's definition, and it's too much trouble to find sources that contradict it, so carry on.

I would argue that the other sources are WP:SYNTHESIS, but you only need one. Also note, most of the recipients of the Carnegie Medal have been middle grade so this isn't an argument that a book is YA. Dan Bloch (talk) 22:04, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks again Dan Bloch. I'm continuing to learn while editing here. I'm not a librarian nor high school teacher, so my edits may reveal blindspots in my knowledge.--Rwood128 (talk) 22:21, 11 May 2023 (UTC) I will revise the discussion of The Lord of the Rings.--Rwood128 (talk) 22:26, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

The original definition of YA as realistic has obviously been replaced: what would be one for 2023? --Rwood128 (talk) 18:46, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It would depend on how sources define it for 2023. Schazjmd (talk) 19:34, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I know that! – but was hoping that there was someone, with more professional expertise in this field than me, – who could bring forward a good definition for today. Doesn't YA fiction now includes fantasy?

I recently read the ''adult'' novel What Strange Paradise which has a teenage protagonist who helps rescues a nine year old Syrian refugee. It could easily have been marketed as YA. The novel won the 2021 Giller Prize. So, is there no real definition outside the market place? Rwood128 (talk) 20:15, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Dan Bloch, while I am not an expert in the world of YA, I'm still puzzled by your dismissal of Tolkien's writings. Do we need to add something like: "Though the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien appeal equally to young children and adults, because they do not deal with the lives of teenagers they are not young adult fiction".Rwood128 (talk) 14:49, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

See also:

The Lord of the Rings has become one of the key books which teachers and librarians recommend to young adults to lead them towards adult literature; but it was not always so. The making of the book was a series of accidents, and, once published, young people insisted on reading it despite the hostility of literary critics and some educationalists, and the then difficulty of obtaining all three instalments in the right order.

This discusses the absence of Tolkien from high school curriculum, further indicating that this matter requires some discussion in the article. Rwood128 (talk) 14:49, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

As I think I said before, I don't consider Tolkien YA because the definition I use is fiction written for 12-18-year-olds. But as I also said, since you've found a reliable source which says that Tolkien is YA (the Tolkien Society essay, or the book it came from), you're free to treat it as YA in this article. You don't need a long disclaimer, something like "Though not written for young adults..." is fine. Dan Bloch (talk) 18:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Ambiguity: What is YA fiction?

This article needs to clarify what it means by young adult fiction. To this non-specialist, it seems to be (1) Fiction specifically written for contemporary teenagers that deals with the issues that they face growing up now. This includes works by Judy Blume and the Harry Potter series. (2) Any fiction where the subject matter is appropriate for teenage and whose protagonists are often teenagers. This would include so-called classic novels, like Alice in Wonderland, Tom Sawyer and The Catcher in the Rye. Classics appear also be defined in terms of length, ideas, sentence structure, vocabulary, and especiallt that they are set in a time and cuulture foreign to contemporary teenagers, as. for example, Hawthorne's The Scarlett Letter. It also needs to be noted in the article that terms teenager and young adult are fairly recent inventions. --Rwood128 (talk) 12:17, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the definition used in the article is (1), but the important thing is whichever definition is in the sources. The use of the terms teenager and young adult in English in general may or may not fit into the article. Dan Bloch (talk) 14:29, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

That is what I thought, though the article goes beyond this. The ambiguity of the term "young adult fiction" creates a problem.. I'm guessing that the YA category is particularly associated with the classroom setting and the struggle that teachers have with reluctant readers. And that it has further developed as a marketing tool by publishers. The article needs to make this explicit and acknowledge that it deals with at least two types of fiction that may appeal to adolescents.

The sentence "The modern style of young-adult fiction originated during the 1960s" should be expanded upon. I've glanced at the articles cited and they look most interesting. This sentences, however, infers an earlier different type of young adult fiction. --Rwood128 (talk) 17:05, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Just a reminder: Make sure you cite with a reliable source, anything you insert into the article.—Anita5192 (talk) 18:15, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Anita5192, this is rather vague – are you indicating that you find the sources I describe as looking "most interesting" unreliable? --Rwood128 (talk) 19:38, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Dan Bloch I now better understand your objection to including The Lords of the Ring in this article, but if that isn't YA, numerous other works included here also aren't, especially fantasy? Would you agree that YA fiction began in 1967 and that this is a distinctly new genre from earlier teenage literature, and adult literature that children can enjoy? --Rwood128 (talk) 21:20, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I've since noticed the discussion above under "Inaccuracies" that disputes the 1967 date! --Rwood128 (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I thought all along that YA arrived gradually, not that it suddenly appeared in 1967. That is, it was evolutionary and not something completely new (which the article reflects, mentioning the Little House books, Catcher in the Rye, the Heinlein juveniles, etc.). I'm still pretty sure that YA took off in the late 60s, which again I think the article reflects. I've been looking into this more since the "Inaccuracies" discussion and found a source with earlier history, which I'll add some time soon. And as always, it's what the sources say that matters most.

Re Tolkien, as I said in the earlier discussion the Tolkien Society source is legitimate by Wikipedia's standards, even though I personally think it skews YA history a little. Dan Bloch (talk) 23:03, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

This source suggests 1942:

Seventeenth Summer, released by Maureen Daly in 1942, is considered to be the first book written and published explicitly for teenagers, according to Cart, an author and the former president of the Young Adult Library Services Association. It was a novel largely for girls about first love. In its footsteps followed other romances, ands sport novels for boys.

The term “young adult” was coined by the Young Adult Library Services Association during the 1960s to represent the 12-18 age range. Young Adults Library Services Association. --Rwood128 (talk) 23:05, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

From Young adult romance literature: The success of Seventeenth Summer by Maureen Daly, published in 1942, is generally acknowledged as the impetus for romance novels specifically written for teenage girls, although Daly considered her novel to be written for adults. Young adult romance novels were referred to as junior novels and sometimes malt shop novels. Schazjmd (talk) 23:08, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Just found: This definition, from the Young Adult Library Services Association, needs to be considered:

The term “young adult literature” is inherently amorphous, for its constituent terms “young adult” and “literature” are dynamic, changing as culture and society — which provide their context — change. When the term first found common usage in the late 1960’s, it referred to realistic fiction that was set in the real (as opposed to imagined), contemporary world and addressed problems, issues, and life circumstances of interest to young readers aged approximately 12-18. Such titles were issued by the children’s book divisions of American publishers and were marketed to institutions – libraries and schools – that served such populations (Michael Cart from "The Value of Young Adult Literature for YALSA. Adopted by YALSA’s Board of Directors, January 2008).

Also, the article does not mention this American context, or consider YA in any language other than English. --Rwood128 (talk) 11:37, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

20th century

Rwood128, the blockquote from Cart splitting off from a sentence fragment is awkward and unnecessary. It could easily be summarized without needing to quote it directly. Schazjmd (talk) 22:38, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I've copyedited it so there's no longer a sentence fragment or a blockquote. It's only slightly awkward now. Though it would probably still benefit from being summarized. Dan Bloch (talk) 05:43, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. A direct quote is stronger, especially with regard to defining this topic. Now the fact that the definition has changed since the 1960s needs to be addressed.--Rwood128 (talk) 10:35, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

YA literature in Europe

• "French Teen & Young Adult Fiction", Library of Congress Research Guide
• German YA. Michael Schmidt, "Children's and Young Adult Books in German". Goethe Institute

Rwood128 (talk) 14:38, 18 May 2023 (UTC) --Rwood128 (talk) 18:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

A quick search of the Times Literary Supplement suggests that the term YA was not (or rarely) used in the UK, at least in the 1960s-80s, but rather "teeenage", "junior", adolescent". --Rwood128 (talk) 18:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It's used today. See, e.g., these two Guardian columns from the article's citations.

References

Style

Dan Bloch, Perhaps I'm just being picky but I find this section, inadequate and poorly written. I thought my objections were clear enough. Anyhow, when I can find the time, I'll work on improving this section.

Can something be done about the narrow focus of this article on American YA literature? Rwood128 (talk) 15:42, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Use of direct quotes

In an edit today I removed the sentence However, "'young adult literature' is inherently amorphous", and "even those who study and teach it have not reached a consensus on a definition".. These quotes are pretty good, but there are issues with using them this way. Usage like this appears awkward and is non-encyclopaedic. Sources should almost be paraphrased, not quoted directly. Something like "Young adult literature is hard to define, even by those who study it and teach it" would be fine. But when the quotes appear like this, the claim is being made in Wikipedia's voice. In order to be acceptable the author would have to to be specified inline too, e.g., "Young adult literature is hard to define ("inherently amorphous", in the words of Michael Cart)."

Note that the {{cite}} templates have a handy quote= parameter which lets you insert quotes in a citation without having to go through gymnastics like the above.

See Wikipedia:Quotations for more discussion about using quotes. Dan Bloch (talk) 17:04, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, it's best to stick to brief quotations. --Rwood128 (talk) 17:55, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Genre fiction

Hi Dan Bloch, Re your recent deletion, can you explain why YA fiction doesn't fit this definition:

In the publishing industry the term "category fiction" is often used as a synonym for genre fiction, a term used in the book-trade for fictional works written with the intent of fitting into a specific literary genre, in order to appeal to readers and fans already familiar with that genre.

YA is described – and marketed – as category fiction. Wouldn't it have better to have edited, rather than delete, the section? Rwood128 (talk) 15:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

No. First, I'm pretty sure YA isn't considered genre fiction. It is a genre, but in a colloquial sense, not a technical publishing sense. As we say in the lead paragraph of the article, "The YA category includes most of the genres found in adult fiction". I would argue that, e.g., YA science fiction is genre fiction, but realistic YA isn't. Second, the section you added said nothing about YA. It was just a definition of genre fiction, apropos of nothing. But third, even if it were motivated, it would be wrong to copy a definition of genre fiction. This isn't the Wikipedia paradigm. You would say, e.g., "YA is an example of genre fiction, and if someone were curious they would click on the link. Any time you find yourself copy/pasting between Wikipedia articles (which I see you've done elsewhere in this one), it should be a red flag. Dan Bloch (talk) 16:47, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I note you are just "pretty sure" but not certain about this. And I focussed on the idea that YA was a category.

Aren't there genre fiction categories such as YA romance, YA sci/fi, YA fantasy, and more? Personally I dislike this kind of categorizing: there is just good, poor, and bad literature --Rwood128 (talk) 17:21, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm no longer sure what the issue is. If you don't want a detailed discussion of categories and I don't want a description of genre fiction, we should both be happy. Dan Bloch (talk) 19:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I was unclear. If fantasy is a category of genre fiction then isn't YA fantasy also? – and YA romance, sci/fi, etc.? That is the "genre fiction" section should be restored. --Rwood128 (talk) 20:43, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Still no. Of the three reasons I gave above, the most important is that we will be wasting the time of anyone who reads that paragraph, since they won't have learned anything about YA. Dan Bloch (talk) 22:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The use of the word genre in connection with YA can be confusing and the early definition from the 1960s does make it sound like a sub-genre. Some of what I said may have been a little confused. However, if "The main genres are crime, fantasy, romance, science fiction and horror—as well as perhaps Western, inspirational and historical fiction," are examples of genre fiction(from the lede of genre fiction), then why aren't YA examples of these genres also genre fiction? In 2016 I thought I knew the answer Talk:Genre fiction#Literature for children and young adults.--Rwood128 (talk) 11:45, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

They are genre fiction. I said that above. If you want to mention this in the article it's not out of the question, but it would need a source, and it's a tiny detail which doesn't add to readers' understanding of YA so I'd recommend against it. But the paragraph I deleted was just about genre fiction and not about YA at all. Dan Bloch (talk) 14:48, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

References

On Harry Potter

I'm taking to the talk page on this.

I think people have difficulty placing this series because it evolves significantly over the course of the 7 books. I don't think there is any justification for counting Harry Potter as a "middle grade series" (a la Diary of a Wimpy Kid or Percy Jackson & the Olympians) given the lexile level of the books, their length, the age of the characters, the darker, more violent content, some of the conventions used (like the 7th book's epigraphs from Aeschylus and William Penn) and the very occasional use of language ("slut", "bastard", "bitch") that is not under any circumstance published in titles considered "Middle Grade". I acknowledge the somewhat subjective nature of this debate, but this makes it difficult to cite any one source to properly support either claim - many will say they are Young Adult, some will say Middle Grade, some say that the series progresses from Middle Grade to YA by about book 3 or 4, and the series is often casually referred to as a YA series. The Fantastic Beasts prequel stories to Harry Potter contain adult main characters, World War II imagery, and instances of infanticide. The wizarding world films are mostly PG-13 or 12 rated. The multimedia franchise overall, I'd argue, has complicated this by stretching the appeal and target audience of the franchise and its originating book series significantly.

I don't think there is any meaningful argument to support the claim that Harry Potter is Middle Grade beyond "the first book is". I'm happy to revert the page back to where it was before my edits until a consensus is arrived at. Threefrgy (talk) 04:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

"the very occasional use of language ("slut", "bastard", "bitch")" Your point being? I live close to a kindergarten, and regularly hear the kids using the equivalent Greek words, and others of that type. Dimadick (talk) 07:12, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I’m sure you can make facile excuses as to why any content should be allowable at middle grade just because Harry Potter has it, but publishers don’t publish books as middle grade with that language period. I made a number of other points, too. Threefrgy (talk) 18:51, 23 September 2023 (UTC)