Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nkosazana Daughter

Nkosazana Daughter

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Nkosazana Daughter (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Claims in the lead are that she charted number 30 on "Top albums" but the reference shows this to be Spotify, not Billboard. The other charting such as "number 3 in South Africa" is also streaming and not a major chart so would fail WP:NMUSICIAN in that regard. WP:GNG is also not met as while she has done some collaborations, the references are mentions, routine, blogs, or otherwise non-reliable sources. CNMall41 (talk) 07:23, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and South Africa. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 08:27, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Music. dxneo (talk) 10:16, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:49, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: Subject was nominated for Soundcity MVP Awards Festival (and also as a featured artist) here, and for SA Dance Music Awards here, and for two categories at the SA Amapiano Awards here which I believe satisfy #8 per WP:MUSICBIO. Haven't done a full research and also can't access RiSA website at the moment. dxneo (talk) 11:15, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

  Subject was featured on two RiSA Platinum certified recordings namely "Nomathemba and Yini Sdakwa" dxneo (talk) 02:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Is this a song by Nkosazana Daughter or a collab? Being on a song that received such status does not make everyone associated with it notable. Otherwise, we could create pages for everyone involved. I believe the certification for the song is for the main artist. --CNMall41 (talk) 03:49, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

For the "major music award" in #8 of the guideline, I searched the WP:NMUSIC noticeboard but could not locate the ones listed on the page. I started a discussion to determine if these are major awards. Note that I did not inquire about the South African Music Awards" as this page shows "pending" as opposed to "nominated" or "won."--CNMall41 (talk) 04:01, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

As for awards, Soundcity should be enough. However, I think it's TOOEARLY as I've been looking for SiGCOV for some time now, and ultimately couldn't find any. Subject is mostly on an article for featured song(s), outside non-RS gossip, and that Mpura and DJ Maphorisa put her on, she has nothing. Released an album mid-2023 (which fails #5 per WP:NMUSICBIO because it is self-released), featuring guest appearances from big names across Africa but somehow didn't make the news, chart, receive nominations, nor certificates. Until SIGCOV is presented, I'm leaning towards weak delete. dxneo (talk) 04:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the awards as I was thinking Grammies, MTV Music Awards, etc. and wasn't considering international awards prior to my nomination. Let's hope we can generate feedback from the talk page of WP:NMUSIC. She obviously isn't your run of the mill WP:GARAGEBAND based on some verifiable content so maybe the awards will allow the page to get over the hurdle. --CNMall41 (talk) 04:41, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

CNMall41, I think the problem here is only SIGCOV, WP:MUSICBIO states that "Subject may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria", emphasizing may. This is a close call (as she was nominated in not one but three award ceremonies), which I can't can't really decide to either weak keep or weak delete. I guess we will see what other researchers present as time goes by. dxneo (talk) 04:59, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

• Keep: per Dxneo, satisfies #8 per WP:MUSICBIO. --Tumbuka Arch (talk) 16:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• Delete: Even if she satisfies MUSICBIO, I couldn't find independent, significant coverage in RSes, and I agree with CNMall's assessment of the references in the article. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:36, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• Keep She's a featured vocalist on two platinum-certified songs and a featured vocalist on a song that spent five weeks at #1 on TOSAC ([1]). We are clearly talking about a musician of some prominence in her milieu, and a musician of comparable importance in any country in the Northern Hemisphere would easily sail through this proceeding. Chubbles (talk) 06:24, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Okay let's look at it this way. WP:MUSICBIO states that the subject may be notable if they at least meet one of the following criteria:

1. Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself:
Subject has had a fair share news and passing mentions here & there.

2. Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart:
I could not find any recording(s) where the subject is credited as the primary artist that charted. However as a featured artist she has charted multiple times here peaking at no. 1 on The Official South African Charts and here on Billboard South Africa songs with "Sofa Silahlane" by Master KG, and again peaking at no. 1 here with "Dali Nguwe" also by Master KG, and that is just to mention a few.

3. Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country:
There is no record of the subject receiving any sort of musical certification as a primary artist, as a featured individual she received not one but two with "Nomathemba" and "Yini Sdakwa".

4. Has received non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country:
Subject had a show outside of her birth country in Zimbabwe, not sure if that counts.

5. Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable):
Clearly it is non-negotiable that the subject ultimately fails this criterion as they released only one studio album of which is self-released.

8. Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award:
Subject was nominated for Soundcity MVP Awards Festival (and also as a featured artist) here, and for SA Dance Music Awards here, and for two categories at the SA Amapiano Awards here

10. Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, such as a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, inclusion on a notable compilation album:
As a vocalist often featured by record producers, she performs quite a lot. She performed on Channel O multiple times here and here, not sure if this counts.

And while doing rounds on this site I noticed not only Nkosazana Daughter "claims" notability through their collaborative works, but also Nia Pearl and Kyla Reid, the latter featured on "One Dance" by Drake. In conclusion I think it's safe to keep and rewrite the article to maintain neutrality in accordance to our guidelines. dxneo (talk) 08:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

You say "she's a featured vocalist on two platinum-certified songs and a featured vocalist on a song that spent five weeks at #1." Would this mean any performer on a #1 song would qualify under WP:NMUSIC? My contention is that if she is truly a "musician of some prominence," the media would have taken notice. --CNMall41 (talk) 20:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

On #1 of my analysis I did say she had a fair share of news coverage and yes I believe the media noticed her as the subject contributed a lot in the music industry and I think if RiSA was up to speed with certifications, Nkosazana Daughter would be featured on more than just two Platinum singles. One thing we always leave out is that even if the artist is not credited as a primary artist, the song is still theirs too. dxneo (talk) 21:57, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for any confusion, but the question was posed to Chubbles. The inline may not have been accurate. I do have a question about "even if the artist is not credited as a primary artist, the song is still theirs too." Are you saying we consider this for notability purposes on Wikipedia? I have never seen it applied this way but would help me in future reviews if you can point me to a discussion or specific policy. --CNMall41 (talk) 22:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

My apologies, ping him. Please don't put words in my mouth, I think it depends on the coverage the individual gets. Again look at "One Dance", Kyla Reid's "Do You Mind" (released in 2008) was non-notable til it was sampled by Drake and Kyla wasn't notable too because her article and the song's article were created in 2016 subsequent to the release of "One Dance" of which she was featured on, we all know the charting history and certifications of the song. Looking at Kyla's discography, she didn’t contribute much to the industry and her lead statement states that she's best know for "One Dance". dxneo (talk) 22:32, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

No apologies necessary. As far as putting words in your mouth, I do not see how that happened. I apologize if you took it that way, but I simply asked a question about a statement you made so please WP:AGF. As far as the example, Kyla is a false equivalence. She's notable as she charted for "Do You Mind," a song she both wrote and recorded. --CNMall41 (talk) 05:42, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Her song was released in 2008 and charted in 2009, please bring SIGCOV from that time frame. Anyway, that's off the topic as the subject of the matter pass #1, #4, #8 and #10 per WP:MUSICBIO and #1 per WP:ANYBIO despite you clinging on "featured artist". dxneo (talk) 06:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I was actually discussing your contention but now you are becoming bitey even after asking you to AGF. Your contention is that she is notable for a collab when in fact she is notable for charting, hence why your argument is a false equivalence. --CNMall41 (talk) 07:35, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Keep Her #3 album is questionable as I could not verify it and the citations did not support. However, she has more than enough news coverage to meet notability. See 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. Royal88888 (talk) 08:53, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:37, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I honestly thought this would be closed by now because I don't see why Nkosazana Daughter's success through features shouldn't count when it states here that Jay-Z tied with Kanye West for most Grammy wins through "Drunk in Love" by Beyoncé, keep in mind that Jay Z is not the primary artist on that song. But then again, the subject still pass WP:MUSICBIO through her awards nominees and a fair share of news coverage. Oh and logic also applies to music producers such as Southside, TM88, and 808 Mafia just to mention a few as they are not primary artists and not even featured artists but they are notable for the recordings they worked on. dxneo (talk) 09:20, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

This is the same logic you used above for another artist. Jay-Z would be notable outside of that collaboration based on his charted music and significant coverage. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:17, 14 November 2023 (UTC)