Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chaoxianzu

Chaoxianzu

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

• How to contribute
• Introduction to deletion process
• Guide to deletion (glossary)
• Help, my article got nominated for deletion!

Chaoxianzu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Bad WP:POVFORK of Koreans in China.

The topic of this article (ethnic Koreans with Chinese nationality) has been the primary topic of the article Koreans in China since 2006 (initial version, October 2023 version). In October, however, User:Strategicasian inexplicably changed the introduction of the latter article to only "non-Chinese nationalities such as South Korean and North Korean people", the complete opposite of the article's previous main focus, and created this new article.

This new article, despite being titled "Chaoxianzu", the Korean ethnicity in China, is almost entirely an original research assay on political issues surrounding the identity of Chaoxianzu and their emigration to South Korea. It cites 25 sources currently – I've checked all accessible ones, and the vast majority of them are fake citations that do not support the preceding text. (It is also immediately obvious, from the way citations are added here, that they are fake.) The only parts that are actually supported, such as the population in South Korea, are also discussed in the main "Koreans in China" article and it makes little sense to duplicate them there.

In the future, the topic of Koreans in China could still benefit from a split between articles on Korean Chinese citizens (Chaoxianzu) and recent South Korean arrivals in China. However it is now being split in the worst possible way: we are getting a extremely low-quality new article on Chaoxianzu, and another article that claims to be about non-Chinese citizens, but still mainly deals with the chaoxianzu. Splitting content about South Koreans from the main article would be a much better solution. Esiymbro (talk) 22:48, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Ethnic groups and China. Esiymbro (talk) 22:48, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Please read Talk:Chaoxianzu in Korea. The modifications made to the Wikipedia articles concerning the Korean community in China stem from a necessity to more accurately represent the diverse experiences and identities of Koreans in this region. It seems like you are ignoring the fact that in China, there are not only Chaoxianzu but also South Koreans and North Koreans. Please do not overlook them. The initial article, "Koreans in China," primarily addressed ethnic Koreans with Chinese nationality, known officially as Chaoxianzu (朝鲜族). The suggestion to delete this page seems to conflict with Wikipedia's goal of providing comprehensive information and raises concerns regarding neutrality. As a contributor, I strongly oppose this deletion. CONSTRUCTING CHAOXIANZU IDENTITY Presented in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements for the Degree Doctor of Philosophy in the Graduate School of The Ohio State University Location: Home > Chinese Ethnic Groups > Korean Ethnic Groups > History National Ethnic Affairs Commission of the People's Republic of China I want to emphasize that the data and content I have provided are not products of independent research but are derived from verified and academically recognized sources. The assertion that my contributions are based on independent studies is inaccurate. These sources are well-studied and corroborated. If additional data are required, I am more than willing to provide it. Considering the term "Chaoxianzu" is an established English name in Northeast Asian academic and political discourse, the deletion of this article seems unjustified. "Chaoxianzu" is a globally recognized official name and is crucial in establishing and preserving the identity of Korean-Chinese citizens with Chinese nationality.

Over time, it became evident that the experiences of South Korean and North Korean nationals in China were significantly different, necessitating a more distinct focus. This observation led to the reorientation of the "Koreans in China" article to more prominently include these groups.

The creation of the new article titled "Chaoxianzu" was intended to offer a specific platform for discussing the distinct aspects of Korean ethnicity in China, separate from the broader context of all Koreans in China. This distinction allows for a more detailed exploration of the Chaoxianzu, including their political issues and migration patterns to South Korea. The aim was not to undermine the significance of Chaoxianzu but to grant it a unique and separate focus.

In conclusion, the adjustments made to the Wikipedia articles were driven by the desire to provide more defined and detailed coverage of the various Korean communities in China. While challenges concerning the accuracy of content and reliability of sources have been noted, these can be effectively addressed through collaborative editing and strict adherence to Wikipedia's guidelines. Therefore, I firmly oppose the deletion of these articles and commit to actively contributing additional data to enhance their quality and comprehensiveness. Strategicasian (talk) 18:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Tentative keep but I do agree that the article has a lot of significant issues and think the scope of the Koreans in China could be realigned. I've also been concerned with the quality of the article.

My thoughts:

• Chaoxianzu are an international and distinct group that I think deserve their own article.
• Koreans in China are a broader category that includes Chaoxianzu, albeit not entirely, as Chaoxianzu are international.

Given the second point, I think the scope of Koreans in China could be Chaoxianzu (specifically in China, maybe mention the Chaoxianzu diaspora), as well as the South and North Korean diasporas in China. The article would then WP:SUMMARY-style mention Chaoxianzu (i.e. a few dense paragraphs with key information only, leaving the rest for the full article), with a prominent Template:Main article that makes it clear the rest of the info can be found on the other article.

Given the issues with article quality, I could see an argument for delete unless someone is willing to significantly improve the issues addressed. I'm on the fence about it. With respect @Strategicasian, I think there needs to be a stronger effort to keep closer to Wikipedia guidelines; you edit WP:BOLD-ly, but I think you're too bold. The information in it I think is not necessarily false or unhelpful, but it has systemic issues that may take ages to organically address. It'd be great if you can do the rewrite; you would need to do a careful read through of the Wikipedia style guides (reading Wikipedia:Good Article criteria is an ok place to start; you don't need to promote to GA, but just follow the principles in the article), and ask for feedback from more experienced users. I wish I could provide more focused feedback, but I have a lot on my plate lately. toobigtokale (talk) 18:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughtful and constructive feedback on the "Chaoxianzu" article. I appreciate your recognition of the distinctiveness of the Chaoxianzu as an international group and the importance of having a dedicated article for them. Your suggestion to realign the scope of the "Koreans in China" article to include not just the Chaoxianzu but also the South Korean and North Korean diasporas in China is insightful. As you can see from sources like "Study on the Adjustment Process of Chaoxianzu during Cross-Cultural Transition in South Korea," "A Taste of South Korea in Shanghai, China's Koreatown," and "Shanghai Municipal People's Government - Site of the Korean Government in Exile, a Symbol of a Long-Standing Friendship," there is a clear distinction between South Koreans in China and Chaoxianzu in South Korea. Study on the Adjustment Process of Chaoxianzu during CrossCultural Transition in South Korea A taste of South Korea in Shanghai, China's Koreatown Shanghai Municipal People's Government - Site of the Korean government in exile a symbol of a long-standing friendship - Since the establishment of formal diplomatic relations between China and South Korea three decades ago, six South Korean presidents have visited the Site of the Korean Provisional Government at 306 Madang Road in Huangpu District. The statistics of overseas Koreans include South Koreans who are temporarily staying in China. Therefore, when the President of South Korea visits and stays in China, technically, they would be counted among 'Koreans in China.' However, it's nonsensical to include the South Korean President in the statistics for Chaoxianzu. Therefore, there is a need for clear distinction between the "Chaoxianzu" page and the "Koreans in China" page. This is not an ethnic distinction but an objective differentiation based on nationality.

This approach, which integrates a WP:SUMMARY-style mention of the Chaoxianzu with a clear redirection to the main article, seems like a balanced way to address the complexities of these communities.

I understand your concerns regarding the quality of the article and agree that adherence to Wikipedia guidelines is paramount. Your observation about the systemic issues in the article is well-received. I am willing to undertake the necessary improvements and commit to a thorough review and rewrite of the content in compliance with Wikipedia's style guides. I appreciate your suggestion to consult the Wikipedia:Good Article criteria and other relevant guidelines to ensure the article meets the necessary standards. Moving forward, I will endeavor to strike a more careful balance, ensuring that my contributions are not only bold but also align with Wikipedia's best practices. Strategicasian (talk) 19:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)