Talk:Cyprus

Lead

Ghadj6, I have reverted the lead to the version before your extensive edits as per WP:BRD. I certainly think these were not an improvement. The statement “the lead has been there for some time” is not correct, the edits were in the last few months, with major edits on the 4th of October; they were quite major so require substantial time to evaluate, and not a lot of interested people have been watching. I have been involved in discussions re this lead since 2011 and the previous version had a lot of consensus building behind it. Instead of trying to overwhelm and force through massive controversial changes to the lead, please state your proposed changes sentence-by-sentence. We can then discuss. GGT (talk) 01:01, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Let's examine the changes in the lead.

1. "Cyprus, officially the Republic of Cyprus, is an island country situated in the Mediterranean Sea."

I don't see why we'd have any disagreements here, it's the first line and we get a clear general indication of location. Consider in the article for Malta "located in the Mediterranean Sea" and in the article for Jamaica "situated in the Caribbean Sea"

2. "It lies between the continental mainlands of Europe and Asia."

This is further explanation of where the island is geographically. Consider for example in the article for Iceland "between North America and Europe". It is better than the previous "geographically in Western Asia", firstly because, as Cyprus is an island it's better to describe its actual maritime location than link it to mainland geographic areas, and secondly because literature is split on whether the island should be included in Western Asia, Southern Europe, Southeastern Europe etc. I've even seen sources describing it as transcontinental, whereas the new line is an undisputed geographical observation. I consider this to be vastly superior and more encyclopedic, and I would understand if you wanted to add Africa too, as the island is very often quoted to be "in the crossroads" of the three continents.

3. "It shares a land border with the British Overseas Territory of Akrotiri and Dhekelia"

This is the only official *border* of the Republic of Cyprus according to international law (treaties, UN). I see no issues here.

4. "Since the Turkish invasion of 1974, Cyprus exerts no de-facto control of its northeasternmost territory, which is administered by the internationally disputed state of Northern Cyprus, and considered by the United Nations to be under the illegal occupation of Turkish troops."

Brief historical placement, clear geographical indication of where the TRNC is, mention to its limited recognition, and mention of the international consensus(UN) of the political situation. This is all factual and supported by 3 sources. I understand that you might consider "illegal" to be strong language and I'm willing to work with you on the wording. Otherwise, let me hear what issues you have with this. We could mention Turkey as the single country recognizing the TRNC as well, if you think that it provides a more neutral POV presenting both sides (these being Turkey and the TRNC, versus Cyprus and the international community; the UN).

5. "Nicosia serves as Cyprus' capital and largest city, followed by Limassol."

I see no reason why Limassol shouldn't be mentioned, a plethora of country articles mention the second largest city.

=> Overall, the first paragraph is in an improvement in my eyes. It's factual, easy to read, follows the style of other country articles better, shows clear geographic location with the most broadly accepted terms, and provides some more information on the political situation. Someone researching Cyprus could read this paragraph and have a well rounded and clear idea of what it is, where it is, and what the gist of the CyProb is.

5. "Cyprus boasts a very ancient history"

It does, a source supports this as well, and it's better to include a brief introductory sentence when discussing the history of the island.

6. "The island's most prominent Neolithic settlement is Khirokitia, notable for being proof of the existence of structured societies residing in fortified villages and practicing communal farming."

This is consistent with the previous sentence, as ruins of the Hellenistic period don't flow as well with talking about the earliest human activity on the island. Of course I would not be opposed in mentioning said ruins later in the paragraph to keep the timeline more orderly, if you want.

7. "leaving a lasting impact on its culture, language, and architecture"

This is all true and supported by a source. I don't see why it wouldn't be a good addition.

8. "To this day, the majority of Cypriots identify as ethnic Greeks, and Cyprus is the only country, aside from Greece, where Modern Greek is an official language."

This is further explanation on the previous sentence about the impact of Greek settlement on the island, is perfectly factual, and I believe uses neutral language.

10. The entirety of the next paragraph provides more historical context and it does so with simpler language than what was there before. Please let me know of any specific issues you might have with this and we can look into it.

11. "Under Ottoman rule, Cyprus saw economic and cultural decline"

There's a source supporting this, but I can see why this could be interpreted by some as supporting certain POV's. Please let me know what your suggestion is.

12. "along with the emergence of Greek nationalism following the Greek War of Independence in 1821, and the establishment of an ethnically Turkish community on the island"

These two statements are both factual, I don't see why you'd have any issues with them.

13. "Following a war of independence"

The previous "following nationalist violence" was very dodgy wording, and in my eyes it was flirting with promoting certain POV's. Such insurrections that lead to independence are often called "wars of independence" in wikipedia articles, keeping it consistent. I haven't seen anywhere the term that was previously used describing similar armed campaigns. All "wars of independence" are inherently nationalistic, and I see no reason why Cyprus should be the one exception to the uniform way of wording these.

Let me know if I've missed any changes, and please comment your opinion on these.

Of course, other editors please chime in with your thoughts as well. Ghadj6 (talk) 17:08, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for this. A few of these are OK, most are not. As you will appreciate it will take me time to do it justice and get back, but please trust that I will. We can then at least implement the bits that are OK to begin with. GGT (talk) 00:07, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Still on my agenda to get back to this, just have been busier than expected. Apologies for the delay. GGT (talk) 23:08, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I trust that you will, no pressure. Since it's now been almost a month and a half since the original disagreement, and no one else has raised any arguments, I'll go ahead to revert the article. When you find the time, get back so we can discuss this :)

Isn't Cyprus WEST of the Levant?

Isn't it? HardBart (talk) 14:22, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

That was a recent addition, I have reverted it pending discussion, especially as the lead has undergone some back and forth recently. CMD (talk) 17:21, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The user made an error most likely. ShovelandSpade (talk) 15:50, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Republic of Cyprus is the whole island

Technically the recognised Republic of Cyprus includes the whole island according to the UN. This is why Turkey does not recognise the Republic of Cyprus as an entity. 149.7.52.11 (talk) 20:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)