Talk:Douglas Murray (author)

Use of primary sources to support Murray's views

Murray is a columnist - that is a professional writer of opinions who gets paid to 'take a stand' on some topical matter on a near-daily basis. Quite a lot of the recent additions A) seem fairly trival or commonplace B) are based on using primary sources, ie his own writings. Thoughts? Pincrete (talk) 07:34, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree this is likely a problem. We're not an echo-chamber... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:06, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

You've supplied zero examples, but as a generality: if the discussion is about a person's opinion the valid source is that person. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:46, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, but that wasn't the point was it... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:57, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors should not comb through a person's writings, select what they find interesting and put it in that person's Wikipedia article. They should leave the selecting to secondary sources. --Hob Gadling (talk)

You've supplied zero examples. Well there are a very large number of refs that link to Murray's own writings and which record fairly vague or routine opinions, but a good example of the commonplace is :"Although Murray is an atheist, he still believes that Christianity has an important role in European culture.". This is an interview of Richard Dawkins, conducted by Murray, so it should in theory mainly reveal Dawkins' beliefs. But neither of them says this, so the content is a bit SYNTHY, though it is a reasonable, if slightly banal summary of what they do say. Equally important though is that it would be very difficult to find ANYONE that didn't think that Christianity has an important role in European culture - even if everyone saying that had a different view about that role (what that role is now and whether it should have such a role being obvious differences of opinions). Anybody who saw the funeral of QEII, listened to a day's classical music output, read a history book (or a Dawkins book), listened to a discussion about the morality of homosexuality or abortion, or took a look at European art or architecture would agree that Christianity is still central to European culture, but so what? Who wouldn't agree with that statement? Pincrete (talk) 12:24, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

References

Those objections seem to be about synth and due rather than primary. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 13:46, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

That particular one is mainly about the commonplace-ness and vagueness of the 'view', since the level of SYNTH is not serious. Pincrete (talk) 15:00, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Belatedly, I have trimmed some of these arbitrary quotes from the article. More work is needed. He is a pundit, meaning that his opinions are his commercial product. We are not a platform for helping him sell his wares, so any particular opinion needs at least some bare minimum context from a reliable WP:IS. If these bland details aren't for promotional purposes, the only other reason I can see is to grind an ax. Neither is appropriate. Grayfell (talk) 03:15, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I have further trimmed the article, but again, I think more work is needed. As before, the article cannot possible catalogue all of the things he's said, no matter how inflammatory they may seem to us as editors. As always, we should rely on WP:IS to determine encyclopedic significance. Grayfell (talk) 00:58, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Well done. I agree that the political views section is way too long and contains lots of fairly trivial things he's said. PieLover3141592654 (talk) 21:41, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Citing Murray's own article without a 3rd party reference

Jamousa, this edit [1] fails WP:V because it is not independent from Murray himself. Perhaps a better way to put it is while we can know that Murray said X in an article by Murray, we need an independent source to establish weight for inclusion in this article. Otherwise as editors we have to engage in wp:OR to decide what particular passage is critical/not critical to include. Also, once a passage has been challenged/removed then ONUS says the editor(s) trying to include it need to establish consensus before it is restored. Springee (talk) 11:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Springee: How is that consensus to be achieved? There are numerous references and quotes throughout the article on Murray from his own publications. I've deleted my previous reference to a Twitter comment on what Murray wrote but it appears to me that the deletion of my factual quote is an attempt to disassociate an author from what he has published on a salient subject on which he has taken a clear public position. Jamousa (talk) 11:59, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Step 1 is do not edit war disputed content back into the article. I would suggest reviewing the wp:RS page. Basically you need a 3rd party source that says, "Murray said X and here is why we think it's important". The problem with just inserting some content from one of Murray's articles is that it depends on you the editor deciding what is important in that article (I can't view it due to a pay wall). Is that quote something that needs context? What leads into that quote or prefaces it? Are lots of 3rd party sources saying that quote is a problem or represents something about Murray? As editors we might feel something the BLP subject says is important but if no 3rd party wp:RS say the comment/quote/idea is important then we can't establish weight for inclusion. As an extreme example, if Murray said, "Kill all the Dutch" in an article but no 3rd party sources mentioned it then we would have to assume it wasn't a significant comment of his. It may seem like an odd thing but that is how sourcing works on Wikipedia. Springee (talk) 12:08, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Twitter comments on Murray's statement have included ones by both Shashank Joshi, the defence editor of The Economist (which I previously cited) and Jonathan Portes, Professor of Economics and Public Policy at King's College, London, as well as others. It is clearly regarded as significant as an extraordinary expression of support for ethnic cleansing in a mainstream publication. It is for this reason that I believe it merits inclusion. Jamousa (talk) 12:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Those people may be notable opinions on Murray's comments but per WP:RS they need to come from published articles, not social media postings. Social media posts may be due in a wiki article but that is typically after RSs have published comments about the tweets. What we as editors are not allowed to do is find a social media post from a notable person and then add it to the article based on our personal view that the tweet, by a noted person, is important. Sadly that also often means we have a reverse situation where a BLP subject says something that in context may be very reasonable. For example, "Hudson Hawk was the best movie you will see this summer. That assumes you will see no other movies this summer". A source that thinks Hudson Hawk was a great movie, something that makes the source unreliable by definition, can selectively quote the first sentence. Now the BLP article slanders the subject by claiming they thought Hudson Hawk was good yet we don't have a second RS to say, "that's not what BLP meant". On Wikipedia this might also happen with politically contentious topics as well... Springee (talk) 12:52, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

The underlying problem here is that a large number of the views expressed by Murray are solely sourced to his own writings. Incidentally, not only has he written the content that Jamousa and another editor wanted to insert, he's also said any UK defenders of Hamas should have their UK residence/citizenship taken away/be deported/ be imprisoned for supporting terrorism. I sympathise with both parties, the WP norm is third party sourcing but it really isn't applied very consistently here at present. Pincrete (talk) 12:26, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• I do think we have a larger problem about too much content being cited to non-independent, primary sources. The addition of this new source to the body slightly worsens that problem, but I don't have the energy to fix the overall problem myself and don't care to fight this new worsening. On the other hand, inclusion in the lead it enough of an undue problem that I view it as a BLP vio. Given how many such views/sources are present in the body, cherry-picking this one recent view for prominent placement in the lead is unwise. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:46, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm not generally a fan of Twitter references but could in instances, where something has sparked a Twitter controversy about a notable individual or publication, this be cited?

Firefangledfeathers - I accepted the edit removing the mention in the lead, even though given the unprecedented nature of the statement appearing in a prominent British periodical it is a moot point whether it might merit prominence. Jamousa (talk) 12:54, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

How can we say this has risen to the level of a Twitter controversy? Often when something becomes a social media controversy we have a 3rd party reporting on it. Sadly, and often, those reporting parties are not impartial to the controversy so they may be reporting on it in order to magnify some aspect. However, it's that kind of independent sourcing to reliable sources that we need in order to establish inclusion. Springee (talk) 13:06, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Agree that what and when something can be deemed a controversy, and not just controversial, is, more often than not, down to subjective 3rd party reporting in another medium, usually broadcast or print media but increasingly also standalone online media platforms. Which is why the credibility and public profile of the individuals concerned, such as those I cited previously, the defence editor of The Economist and a leading UK public policy and economics academic, matters. Jamousa (talk) 13:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Those opinions matter but they, as individuals, don't represent a Wikipedia wp:RS. If The Economist writes an article about what Murray says then we may have weight for inclusion but the fact that someone who works for them voices the opinion on social media doesn't reach the needed bar for a RS. The same is true for academics. That last one can be frustrating. Consider a case where academic A publishes a claim in a university press book. A second academic, well respected in the same field, says the claim is wrong for XYZ reasons. They publish this on their university lab webpage. Per Wikipedia rules the university press book is reliable even though it's quite possible the specific claim isn't well supported in the book or the reviewers of the book are generally supportive of the author thus didn't carefully scrutinize the specific claim. The academic who opposes the claim provides specific reasons and data why the claim is wrong. However, per our RS rules the book is likely to be a "reliable" source and the arguments put forth by the professor on his website are viewed as not reliable, not because he isn't a subject matter expert, but because they aren't "published". Why aren't they publishes? It's possible they aren't published because most reviewers would disagree but it's also possible they aren't published because academics basically need to publish and it's easier to get a novel, new idea published vs publishing something noting problem with some other claim that most people haven't noted anyway. Outside of Wikipedia this RS/non-RS distinction often makes no difference. Springee (talk) 14:08, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

"doesn't reach the needed bar for a RS": agreed. WP:SPS/WP:BLPSPS are explicit about this. Self-published sources (including social media) authored by subject-matter experts are sometimes reliable, but they are not usable for claims about living people. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:15, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Tag atop the page - can we delete it?

I think the tag atop the page is not appropriate. There are oodles of non-primary sources. However, when I explained my view and deleted it, an editor immediately restored it. Thoughts? 2603:7000:2101:AA00:617F:95CE:45F8:1A42 (talk) 06:32, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

IP, the issue is not (as is often the case with BLPs) - that the main facts of Murray's life are not verified. The issue is that so many of Murray's opinions, stances, views are only sourced to his own writings and are controversial. This inevitably leads to a certain amount of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, not least because individual editors are assessing which opinions/stances are significant and which are not. Not a small number of the views added in the past are also actually fairly trite - the sort of thing that almost anyone would agree with, such as UK being traditionally culturally Christian. Technically we should we removing all statements sourced to his own writings, but have 'tagged' rather than removed. If the consensus is that this problem has largely been solved, I will not oppose it, but I personally don't think that this threshold has yet been met. Pincrete (talk) 07:21, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

As I said above at #Use of primary sources to support Murray's views in June, I think more work is needed. I trimmed a few more opinions just now, but the problem is still clear. Nobody on the planet doubts that Murray has many opinions. Our goal isn't to blandly catalog all of them, it's to provide context, and the way to do that is via independent sources. Grayfell (talk) 23:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

• There's still entire paragraphs cited entirely to primary sources. And as the section above notes, in some cases this might even be a WP:BLP issue, because the views we're ascribing to Murray via primary sources are highly controversial (ie. it's inappropriate WP:OR to go through someone's works and pull out all the most shocking quotes ourselves; when a quote or viewpoint is shocking enough to potentially harm the reputation of the subject, we should only include it if secondary sources focus on it.) --Aquillion (talk) 17:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Grammar of the theories

I tried to be a little more clear in the lead as to the thing about conspiracy theories; it's a little hard to phrase this succinctly.

Basically, the way I see it is that it'sgrammatically incorrect to say, e.g. that someone "is a conspiracy theorist and supports the lizard emperor". Like, "the lizard emperor" is the name of the conspiracy theory, but everyone who believes it thinks that the lizard emperor is bad!

Anyway, @Pincrete:, I think you have done a better job than me at putting it together in a way that makes sense. jp×g🗯️ 19:46, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Violation of WP:NPOV and WP:Balance.

If we consider the views of far-right individuals who praise him and give it such WP:UNDUEWEIGHT, then the views of his critics merits the same weight and WP:Relevance. Otherwise we risk the failure of WP:Balance.

Note that accusations of Antisemitism or Islamophobia are significant matters that cannot be overlooked when discussing the subject's reputation.

Springee, the line upholds WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:Notability it should not be even up to concensus on whether to include it or not because WP:NPOV policy is non-negotiable

182.183.58.243 (talk) 23:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Much of what you are trying to add was discussed in the past. Packing such contentious labels/views into the lead is problematic. That he is critical of Islam is a better way of saying it as it is closer to IMPARTIAL tone. Going beyond that, the quotes from the journalism sources that you provided don't describe Murray directly as Islamaphobic (they might in parts you didn't quote). The academic sources are "correspondence", basically the opinions of the authors and it's not established that the authors are sufficiently notable to use those opinions in the article lead. Finally, the MCB appears to be an advocacy organization. It's not clear they are an independent source for such a view. Again, perhaps in the article body but not the lead. Springee (talk) 03:28, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Well if we are to include the views of a not-so-notable author like Sohrab Ahmari and controversial activist like Ayaan Hirsi up in the lede then it is also problematic.

In the very least for the sake of WP:Neutral and WP:Balanced, the line "Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sohrab Ahmari have praised Murray's work and writing on Islam in Europe. French philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy has said of Murray, "Whether one agrees with him or not" he is "one of the most important public intellectuals today."" should be concisely reworded to "Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sohrab Ahmari and Bernard-Henri Lévy have praised Murray's work." 182.183.58.243 (talk) 03:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)