Template talk:IPA pulmonic consonants

Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2019

Add "ʈɻ̊˔" and "ɖɻ˔" to "Retroflex non-sibilant fricatives" AquaticCitrus2035 (talk) 02:34, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. We only list sounds about which articles exist. Nardog (talk) 03:57, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

What criteria are used for deciding which symbols not on the official chart appear here? They have to have their own distinct articles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthewmorrone1 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Template:IPA_pulmonic_consonants/table

Cite literature? These consonants don't appear on the chart, and students have been more confused by a dot below than a ring on top. The chart does say a ring on top means the same thing, but does not have a combining dot below. Matthewmorrone1 (talk) 18:07, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2021

Add "t̪" and "d̪" to "dental plosives" QuakDucc (talk) 16:35, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Not done: We only list sounds about which articles exist. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

extIPA

extIPA should be added — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.132.165 (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 8 June 2022

Request: change Post­alveolar to Palato­alveolar

Reason: Postalveolar consonant as the heading is inaccurate, since this category also includes Retroflex consonants and Alveolo-palatal consonants that are shown in the following two columns. Gu0427 (talk) 02:18, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Postalveolar is the term used by the International Phonetic Association to define ⟨ʃ, ʒ⟩. See also IPA Principles. Nardog (talk) 04:30, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 9 July 2022

Add voiceless epiglottal affricate (ʡʜ) to the chart on the on the left side of the box containing ʡʢ. SlimyGecko7 (talk) 15:16, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 17:07, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 18 July 2022

Add the voiced velar tap ([ɡ̆]) to the box right beneath the approximant ([ɰ]). Doctor Zoath (talk) 22:10, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: see the sandbox to find that since [ɡ̆] is not an IPA symbol, the link is to the Extra-shortness article about the breve, rather than to the correct article, Voiced velar tap. Placing the [ɡ̆] in the table with an incorrect link would be confusing to readers. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 00:38, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The same usage of the extra-short diacritic over stops is used for the uvular and pharyngeal taps / flaps so should they be removed for having the wrong link? The extra-shortness article also says that the diacritic is sometimes used for any flap consonants without IPA symbols because a flap is in effect a very brief stop. And above in an earlier thread in 2019, it says “We only list sounds about which articles exist.” Based on the chart currently in use, it doesn’t seem like that has changed. SlimyGecko7 (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

So you think the ɡ̆ symbol for voiced velar tap should be included in the table even though it is not an IPA symbol and therefore links to the extra-shortness article instead of the "voiced velar tap" article? And just so it's mentioned, because this is not an IPA symbol, there is no audio in the {{IPA soundbox/cell}} template for this sound. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 17:32, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

If you checked some of the other sounds listed on the chart, you would notice many of these “non-IPA symbols” included in the chart, e.g. the previously mentioned uvular tap / flap, have no audio in their articles. Also, the article tap and flap consonants mentions the sound in a chart as the only representation of a velar central oral tap / flap, a sound reported in Dàgáárè (source: https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/005110/current.pdf?_s=XH49PPWYJlnZ9LED) and the Kamviri dialect as an intervocalic allophone of [g]. This same article states “If other flaps are found, the breve diacritic could be used to represent them, but would more properly be combined with the symbol for the corresponding voiced stop. A palatal or uvular tap or flap, which unlike a velar tap is believed to be articulatorily possible, could be represented this way (by *[ɟ̆, ɢ̆~ʀ̆]).” However as it states, a velar tap is believed to be articulatorily impossible. But the ğ symbol does follow what it says, the breve diacritic (for extra-short) would most properly be combined with the symbol for the corresponding voiced stop ([g], the voiced velar stop) However, the IPA suggests usage of the breve over trills, but not even some of the other taps / flaps in the chart follow that, instead using a breve over a stop. SlimyGecko7 (talk) 19:08, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

That's not the reason it didn't link to the article. It simply wasn't added to Module:IPA symbol/data after the article was created. Nardog (talk) 21:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done. It's marked impossible on the IPA chart, but it makes sense for this template, which is for navigation, to include it as long as the article about it exists. Nardog (talk) 20:42, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Nardog! Good to have someone here who knows much more than I do about this. I searched a long time unsuccessfully for a way to get the IPA link template to link to the correct article about the vvt. And I don't know enough Lua to be able to do what you did in the data module. Definitely above my pay grade. Thanks again! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 21:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

A couple of wrong links

The phonemes tɭ̊˔ and dɭ˔ appear to be linked to the incorrect articles, respectively going to Voiceless and Relative articulation#Raised_and_lowered instead of the expected Voiceless retroflex lateral affricate and Voiced retroflex lateral affricate. There may be other wrong links. Boershies (talk) 15:18, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. Nardog (talk) 15:44, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Add voiceless retroflex non-sibilant fricative

The voiceless retroflex non-sibilant fricative has been found to occur in Ormuri, so it would be good to add it to the table. Theknightwho (talk) 19:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done User:GKFX^talk 00:05, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Missing table borders?

Any particular reason there aren't borders below some of the cells, like β or ð? —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:49, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Because while ⟨β, ð, ʁ⟩ etc. canonically represent fricatives, they are often used to represent approximants and thus the linked articles discuss both fricatives and approximants. Nardog (talk) 01:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

@Nardog: Sounds good, thanks! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 02:57, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 May, 2023

The retroflex sibilant affricates, [ʈʂ] and [ɖʐ] are transcribed by <tʂ dʐ> can someone please fix this? For unvoiced lateral affricates, fricatives, and taps, can we please stop using obsolete symbols and use standard IPA symbols with diacritics instead? Tdog500 (talk) 20:49, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 20 July 2023

To the immediate left of ɭ can its voiceless counterpart ɭ̊ be added with a link to Voiceless retroflex lateral approximant (a redirect currently). This consonant is listed in inventories of Toda. عُثمان (talk) 18:12, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Voiceless "approximants" are not recognized by the IPA and don't have their own articles, so they're not linked. Nardog (talk) 07:37, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Nardog Do you have a source for this lack of recognition? I was unable to find one. عُثمان (talk) 16:42, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

See Approximant#Voiceless approximants. Nardog (talk) 23:46, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 10 August 2023

ɕ and ʑ are shown as Palatal Sibilant fricative. They are marked as Voiced alveolo-palatal fricative and Voiced alveolo-palatal fricative in official IPA table and other sources too. Alveolo-palatal and palatal are not same. Sarangem (talk) 14:25, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

From the Palatal consonant article, "In phonology, alveolo-palatal [...] consonants are commonly grouped as palatals, [...]". The two symbols in the IPA pulmonic consonants table, ɕ and ʑ, are linked to their correct articles. Since there is no specific alveolo-palatal sibilant fricative grouping in this table, we are compelled to accept that they are intentionally being grouped as palatals as is commonly done. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 17:15, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 8 October 2023

The voiceless upper-pharyngeal plosive and the voiced upper-pharyngeal plosive are not known to occur in any language except possibly Nǁng, but we have standalone articles about them. We would need a new column. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Nardog (talk) 06:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps the content of those articles better belongs in Voiceless uvular plosive and Voiced uvular plosive. Nardog (talk) 06:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

May I add something?

I would like to add some things For example:Adding their voiceless variations. Science boy 30 (talk) 10:42, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Add voiced and voiceless retroflex non-sibilant affricate

These are [t̠͡ɻ̝̊] and [d̠͡ɻ̝], which have been shown to occur in Malagasy. Theknightwho (talk) 18:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Articles don't exist. Nardog (talk) 00:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

@Nardog See Voiceless retroflex affricate#Voiceless retroflex non-sibilant affricate and Voiced retroflex affricate#Voiced retroflex non-sibilant affricate. Theknightwho (talk) 09:54, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Theknightwho could you specify exactly what addition/placement you want in each of these requests? I'm not a phonetician :) SWinxy (talk) 20:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Sections removed as verification failed. Nardog (talk) 05:02, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Add voiceless labiodental nasal

This is [ɱ̊], which occurs in Angami and Kinyamwezi. Theknightwho (talk) 18:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Article doesn't exist. Nardog (talk) 00:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

@Nardog See Voiceless labiodental nasal. Did you even bother checking? Theknightwho (talk) 09:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, it wasn't linked in your {{IPAblink|ɱ̊}}. Let's wait until it gets marked as reviewed. Nardog (talk) 13:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

@Nardog Sure. What about the other two in the thread above? Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to independently verify the source. Theknightwho (talk) 15:45, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done Nardog (talk) 14:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Add voiced palatal tap

This is [ɟ̆] (see link above). Theknightwho (talk) 15:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)